Exclusive: Bernie Sanders worries young people are underestimating the threat from Trump
2y 1mon ago by lemmy.world/u/fukhueson in news from www.usatoday.com
Me too Bernie, me too.
The end of the day I won't blame the young people, though. I will blame the red hat fascists who want to install an orange dictator.
Edit: Young people get a pass because at least they are passionate about something. I'm over here, dead inside, praying to a computer that things don't get any worse then they already are.
I blame First Past The Post voting, for keeping the people handcuffed to two legacy political parties.
Perhaps Republicans would vote less clowns into office, but they are chained to the Republican party.
Same is true for the Democrats. We don't need to be stuck with these two parties. There can be something else.
Right. I wish people were upset about not having ranked choice as they were the genocide in Gaza. If we changed the way we voted voting for the lesser evil wouldn't be a thing.
I blame my dumb ass for voting for Nader in 2000. Don’t be like me. Learn from the mistakes of others!
The people who are to blame are the Republicans. That is where you need to direct your anger.
I’m not angry. I regret voting third-party in an election that barely elected Bush, a year before 9/11, that he used to justify a two front war resulting in nearly one million deaths. I’m encouraging others to learn from my mistake.
Sure but we keep losing sight of what is truly pushing us over the edge
Wanting a three party system but the government won’t comply?
I was going with a single party trying to install an autocrat.
What do you suggest people do about it this election?
I think they should vote back in Trump and let him dismantle American democracy /s
So you don’t have a suggestion? Because like it or not, Trumps base will vote him in if we don’t suck it up and vote for Biden.
I'm voting Biden despite it not meaning very much in my deep red state. I show up for down ballot elections, though. The presidency is only one hurdle. Reclaiming the government at state and local levels is way more important.
Biden should step down as the nominee and ask Bernie to run.
Bernie has my vote! Biden never will.
If you like Bernie so much maybe listen to him?
"We can be extremely upset at the Biden administration for their policies with regard to Israel and Gaza, but the difficulty is that in the real world that you live in, you've got to take a look at a whole lot of things," he said, sitting in the Health, Education, Labor and Pensions committee hearing room on Capitol Hill. "On the other hand, I would hope that most of the young people and protestors do not want to see Donald Trump, who is a racist, a sexist, a homophobe who doesn't acknowledge the reality of climate change, become elected president of the United States."
Also trump is aligned with Netanyahu and is friends with him. Do they think trump being elected will have Israel have peace with Gaza because it would definitely be the opposite. This is playing out like the Carter/Regan election with the Iran Hostage Crisis in a losing effort for Biden if they don’t figure it out.
Yeah, Bernie always carries water for the DNC, and it’s always to the detriment of progressive American politics.
…got to take a look at a lot of things
Record oil and gas drilling, multi-time failure to codify Roe, redlining, gave away the public option, Manchin’s removed, Bibi’s removed, tricked Warren to betray Bernie for nothing, fascist crackdown on peacefully protesting college kids, ancient dinosaur who’s out of touch. I could go on.
There are other options aside from red and blue, and as a swing state voter, I’ll be taking them. The establishment Dems would have you be angry with me and those like me, but this is a misdirection and also just another of Biden’s failings - no ability to take responsibility for his own reprehensible actions.
Americans like you are the absolute worst. So damn irresponsible. All that undeserved extra voting power you have, and you choose to squander it and use it for an act of shameful self-righteousness, with no regard for the consequences of your actions. You clearly have zero respect for progressive politics, progressive movements, and even progressive leaders.
Ignorant liberal voters: as useful for destroying democracy as ignorant fascists
I'm always teleported back to grade school and the token, "rough home life" kid. They sit there and back talk the teacher all day long applying their contrarian logic to everything little thing. Hell, on some level I'd even agree with them but not because they're right in what they are doing but they accidentally make a salient point. The end of the day, though, the teacher was attempting to do good for this kid and we all just watch as they throw it back in their face.
This may be a hot take but as someone in my 40s I don't think anybody in their 80s has a fucking clue what's good for me.
That's true but who do you think keeps voting for these fucks?
Boomers primarily.
To bad they also have no idea how they foreclosed our future, though the window for them to not have to confront the awful cynicism of their choices has justttt about closed (you can actually see the gates now off in the distance, they are the 33 named storms expected by quite shellshocked meterologists and storm forecasters to pummel the Carribean and North America this summer in what is projected to be one of the worst hurricane seasons on record by about as far as the distance is between the sea temperatures off the coast of Africa where hurricanes are born are being ALREADY AT THE TEMPERATURES THEY NORMALLY ONLY REACH IN LATE JUNE OR JULY and whatever the shitty record used to be)
Keep voting for 99% Hitler instead of 100% gets us to the same place
Biden is not fuckin Hitler, you enlightened genius!
Keep voting for Ralph Nader Gary Johnson ... err I mean Jill Stein instead of doing something useful.
Seriously, what's the worse that could happen? It's not like Bush will get us into a massive war and end any hope at fighting climate change err I mean, it's not like Trump will enflame the ongoing war in the Middle East and decimate any chance the Supreme Court will side with minorities for an entire generation no wait, I mean, surely Trump won't imprison his political enemies and dismantle the electoral process.
Ignore what I crossed out; it's just American history. You probably wouldn't be interested
Game theory is a tough subject, but it would be worth it for you to study to understand how you are acting against your less preferred candidate and helping what should be your least preferred candidate (assuming your ranked choice has the republican nominee below the democratic nominee).
Keep voting for 99% … gets us to the same place
You make it seem as though your protest vote does not also get us to the same place? Many voters have shared your mentality and voted accordingly for the past 200+ years and it’s not made a difference, what makes you think this time things will change?
In "The Ultimatum Game," the first player makes an offer of how to split $100 with a second player, who can then choose whether to accept or deny the offer. If they accept, they split the money as proposed, if they refuse, neither of them get anything.
The game theory rational outcome is for the first player to offer $99-$1, and for the second player to accept. Assuming, of course, that the first player knows the second will act according to game theory rationality. In real life, when experiments have been done, people tend to reject offers past about $70-$30. Because people tend to have a minimum line, it makes more sense to make offers more generous than $99-$1.
There's a good reason why people behave that way. It's because, in practice, when a comparable situation comes up, it's usually not just a one and done interaction. The second player can tell the first what they will or won't accept, and if they accept something less than what they said, they lose credibility in the future. In that sort of situation, the worst possible thing for the second player to tell the first is that they intend to act according to their rational self-interest, that they'll accept any offer because it's better than getting nothing.
I would argue that this situation is analogous to voting. The politicians make an offer on how much they'll do for you vs how much they'll benefit themselves, and the voter has the option to accept or refuse the offer. Just as in the above example, it's sometimes better to refuse a bad offer even if the alternative is worse, in order to gain bargaining power and credibility in the future. Meanwhile, following a strategy of "lesser-evilism" guarantees that you will only ever be offered 99-1 splits, because they know you'll accept 1 rather than zero.
Sometimes, an "irrational" strategy can be more effective than what appears to be game theory rational on the surface level.
Voting for Biden gets us to the same place. At least I'm voting for "not genocide"
So FUCKING TIRED of the "moral" wing of our single party govt this go round staying completely silent on Republicans and their policies to blame the world on anyone who won't "vote blue no matter who" though even mainstream Democrats and pundits can't come up with anything better than "yeah Biden does it but trump will do it worse!"
I don't give a fuck how hot a take it is - if "voting for not genocide" makes me a filthy commie than let me fetch my sickle and hammer. Enjoy your "moral high ground" of blaming all our problems on people who think genocide is bad (or making it easy to strip leftist orgs of non profit status, or a handful of other things y'all libs purposefully ignore in lieu of pushing your false narrative that anyone left of Biden are "single issue voters" who "advocate for not voting."
You literally just started by saying you won't vote for him for a single issue, then end by saying you are not a single issue voter.
Tell me you didn't read the comment without reading the comment.
Fuck off, faschie.
I don't even necessarily disagree with your ideas, it's the rhetoric I find disheartening.
Biden isn't 99% Hitler though
The only stickler really is the Israeli support, which he is trying to stop. He isn't even actively pursuing it.
So it is 20% Hitler at best, and dropping.
How is failure to codify Roe on your list and you don't give a shit if we have more fundamentalist judges or not?
How is oil and gas drilling on your list and you don't give a shit if the executive branch is actively dismantling the EPA or not?
I also hate Manchin, you think a progressive Dem is going to be elected in WV? It's either him or a Repub.
I'm not mad at you, specifically, but it is enraging to see dimwits throw their ballots in the trash. Good luck to all of us. Your preferred system is not going to rise from the ashes.
Resize the court is obviously the only solution to this broken situation primed to let the criminal, traitor Trump walk free.
EPA doesn’t mean shit when energy companies are lobbying both sides. Is this supposed to be a determining factor? Look no further than mayor Pete’s handling of East Palestine, OH for your answer.
Richard Ojeda actually had a good chance in WV until the DNC poured millions into attack ads to keep their establishment dog in power. Said dog went on to ram through yet another disastrous pipeline thanks to Biden , lining both their pockets with oil and gas money, before riding off into the sunset.
Luck has nothing to do with it with a system so brutally rigged against the populace. Neither of these “sides” is ever going to do anything beyond exploiting us. I’ll use what little power remains in my vote to try for an alternative. If more people believed something better was possible, perhaps we could yet achieve it.
Can you just save it for a different election? I'm all about 3rd party politics making inroads. But, Jill Stein is NOT going to be elected this time around. Sorry to break it to you. And if Trump gets elected, guess what: we might not have free and fair elections to vote for 3rd parties at all! What's the plan then?
My friend…
We are now faced with the fact that tomorrow is today. We are confronted with the fierce urgency of now. In this unfolding conundrum of life and history, there "is" such a thing as being too late. This is no time for apathy or complacency. This is a time for vigorous and positive action. -Martin Luther King Jr.
Not sure how long you’ve been voting, but as it turns out according to DNC every election is the most important of our lifetime, and the alternative would be all out fascism. I invite you to consider the words of Dr King and why they matter so much today.
Nah, you're using what little power remains in your vote to line a trashcan. And you don't care about the consequences because you are privileged enough that you won't be directly targeted by Repubs.
But the important thing is you'll have owned the "Bothsides Uniparty" by... helping Donald get elected? Yeah, the massive tax cuts will really sting their butts. Good thinking.
Steadfast in binary thinking, how boring and small.
Not sure if you’re aware, but Biden admin is responsible for locking in those Trump tax cuts for the rich and corporations you’re so upset about. I’m being targeted by Dems right now at college campuses across the country, and there is an option left of them which would instead prioritize green infrastructure and organized labor. The choice for me is clear.
Is the extent of your support for Biden limited to “not Trump”? Yikes.
Truly privileged.
There are other options aside from red and blue, and as a swing state voter, I’ll be taking them.
me when I decide to waste my vote as a swing state voter, instead of meaningfully pulling my support for a candidate that's ultimately going to get elected anyways out of protest as a non-swing state voter:
good acknowledgement of the point I was making there, very cool
Could you provide sources? I'm just curious to keep a log
Burn it all down woohoo /s
They don't understand that Trump is just as pro-Israel as Biden, if not even more so considering he moved the U.S. embassy to Jerusalem.
That's the great part about our democracy: You don't get to vote for someone who isn't pro-Israel. Because freedom.
*electoral system
Because of FPTP and the Winner Take All Electoral College, there is a lot of political pressure to only have 2 parties. In a better system (proportional, ranked choice, etc) it wouldn't break with more than two parties. In fact just reforming the electoral college to be proportional would likely allow 3 parties to exist.
If you look at history the last time there was a viable 3rd party it possibly initiated the civil war by allowing an anti slavery viewpoint to exist (which is good, but if we'd had a better voting system it would have happened earlier and reduced a lot of suffering)
Electoral system…
Just as I have to watch half the electorate embrace the most asinine BS possible to justify selfishness and hate… it’s not that far out to see people screaming “genocide joe!” at everyone they see, as they turn off everyone and defeat themselves at every chance.
The cool part is focusing all your effort into a camp-out such that your main message is synonymous with homelessness and you self defeat your own goals… all while you call the liberal element genocidal and basically show the world your biggest effort is to sit still while cutting off the liberal nose to spite your face.
Can you imagine how dumb it would be to vote for someone who isn’t though?
The only reason I think Trump isn’t pro-Palestine (Russian ally through Iran) is because the war is a good distraction from Ukraine
You have to be pro-Israel as the US but that doesn’t mean you can’t be pro-Palestinian
Being pro-Israel and being pro-Palestine are mutually exclusive positions since Israel is genociding Palestine.
That's like saying you can be pro Nazi and pro jew.
I mostly agree in fact, however in definition it isn't true. Israel is a nation that could exist in many other forms. It doesn't have to do what it's doing. It's not the same as "pro-Nazi" because Nazism is an ideology, not a nation. A nation doesn't have any set ideals, only a set of people and borders it represents.
You can be anti-Nazi and pro-Germany because Nazis didn't define Germany. They were Nazis at one point in time but are now represented by totally different ideals.
Socially Jew, economically Nazi?
No it would be like Finland allying with Germany because they had to be against Russia
But I didn’t say pro-Palestine, I said pro-Palestinian which you clearly know the difference since you had to change it to make your point
You just proved my point. The Finland/Germany/Russia comparison only fits with 'Palestine'.
The Nazi/Jews comparison is accurate with 'Palestinian'.
Would it be easier if I said “Finnish” instead of Finland?
If the US backs Palestine do you honestly believe they will turn against all their allies to aid American security of the region and be Israel 2.0?
Yeah Donald "Muslim ban" and "finish the job" Trump is not pro-Palestine only for reasons of distraction.
Palestine (Russian ally through Iran)
Russia isn't in military allience with Iran. Both Russia and Iran are neighbors sanctioned by the US, forcing them into a business partnership by exclusion.
And Iran isn't allied with Gaza Palestinians. You're confusing them with the Yemeni Houthis and West Bank Hezbollah. What you have is Israelis engaging in terrorist acts against both states, then conflating retaliation with cooperation.
You have to be pro-Israel as the US but that doesn’t mean you can’t be pro-Palestinian
Like I said: Freedom. 🇺🇸🦅🍔
Congress is bipartisan pro-Israel. This isn't even a presidential issue.
Biden just happens to be the guy doing the pro-Israel stuff at the moment, so he's eating the lions share of the public ire.
"You have to support the Pro-Israel guy because the other guy is pro-Israel and both party leaders are pro-Israel and the cops are trained by Israelis and Israeli businesses have strong ties with the MIC and Big Finance needs Israel to control trade through the Suez and you're outnumbered and outgunned so quit fighting, just vote for Joe Biden" just isn't a winning message among progressive voters this year.
Maybe try it again in 2026.
Yeah even to expand on that - they don't understand that everything they don't like about Biden, they'll like about Trump less. I mean I have real serious gripes about Biden but it is insultingly stupid to pretend that Trump would be any kind of a solution to those problems.
The GOP openly courts antisemites while also supporting Israel. They make sure to have all the awful bases covered.
And once again, as the foreign trolls that are busy courting our youth want, not one comment in this entire thread mentions that Europe is on the brink of open modernized war should Ukraine fall to vlad "Ukraine is just a stepping stone" putin.
Gaza is a genocide, but that is not the critical geopolitical stage to be paying the most attention to. Once again it is completely ignored that the heads of hamas who attacked israel on oct 7 knowing exactly what they were about to cause are friends of putin.
The Gaza genocide was provoked precisely to pull western eyes from the Ukrainian front where russia was more than underperforming to ensure their victory in a sustained war of attrition.
You want to avoid a world war? You vote for biden whether u do it proudly or do it holding ur nose the way most of the sane will.
He absolutely is more so. Also, young people have more power to influence Biden because they are part of his coalition. Of course, using this power is tricky because you need to pressure and criticize Biden without actually making him lose. So far I support the pressure campaign but I hope as the election gets closer people will start to realize what an epic disaster Trump term two would be.
I don’t understand why people point out that Biden is “funding the genocide in Palestine” and completely ignore and fail to mention that trump would do the exact same thing.
He has all but said he would cut Israel loose to do whatever they needed to finish the job.
The use of Israeli aggression is not a point of comparison when viewing the differences between trump and Biden.
Edit: and I apologize for the late edit - FWIW Biden has become critical of Israeli actions and offered some aid to Palestinians (Yeah, I absolutely agree it isn’t enough) while trump would prefer to wash his hands of the whole Palestine thing. That is a notable difference.
It isn’t the potential for denial that initiated my reply, it’s the fact that people declare US support of Israel is a strike against Biden when comparing Biden to trump as a reason to consider not voting for Biden. This is a false comparison and it is the point I am making.
No one denies that trump will fund it
And? The problem is that these people won't really address the fact that Trump would be worse than Biden
I've argued with multiple people on here who said Trump would be better for Palestinians than Biden is.
simply cannot actively support a genocidal party because it runs fundementally against their core values.
So by not voting they default to the fascist one. Good for them, at least they (didn't) vote for the least worst option.
Ok. GFY for making the “if you vote for Biden you vote for genocide” argument while completely ignoring trump would do the same. You’re just a damn shill for the right wing. Useless MF.
Unreal. Willing to try to convince others to not vote so we get fascism on top of genocide. What a transparent tool.
Seriously. Don’t vote for Biden so this other fascist wins and Palestine sill gets screwed!
Transparent AF.
lol, keep making stuff up about me, tankie. Keep throwing innuendos at me couched as reason so everyone can read your anti-Biden propaganda instead of what’s actually being discussed. Repeat it every single reply like a good little fascist.
E: quick trip through your post history says this is all you do, trash talk democrats and Biden, repeat genocide over and over while never a single mention of trump policy. Well, a quick stop in a porn community to jerk off for a break, right? How’s the propaganda job pay? Any good? Or do you just do it voluntarily out of pure hatred?
If voting for Biden is voting for genocide, then not voting or voting third party is voting for Trump, genocide and the destruction of democracy in the US.
The destruction of democracy in the United States has much deeper roots, and has been in-process for a long time. How long the effects have been visible is arguable, and the manifestation unpredictable, but fundamentally, a voting system which doesn't allow people to express their actual preferences, well, isn't representative of people's actual preferences.
I can't think of any more-profound way to state that truth at this early hour. A "democracy" which doesn't reflect the will of the people is a democracy in name only, and we can only keep the "lesser-evil" streak going for so long before we're so far into evil that we "have to" vote for a candidate materially supporting genocide so we don't get the candidate who supports genocide without having non-actionable "concerns" about it.
I don’t understand why people point out that Biden is “funding the genocide in Palestine” and completely ignore and fail to mention that trump would do the exact same thing.
And hence why I won't vote for Trump either. It's not that hard to understand.
I think Joe Biden is maybe the best president of my lifetime, and I'm going to vote for him with my head held high even though I live in a red state where it doesn't matter at all. I wish things were simpler in the Levant, but I appreciate that Joe Biden is between a rock and a hard place with Israel. It's not like he can just take Bibi out. He's not Boeing. That said, even if I laid the entire genocide at Biden's feet (which, while he's not blameless, is absolutely not appropriate), he would still be head and shoulders an improvement over Donald Trump.
For that matter, I'd absolutely let my 12 year old run this country before I'd let Trump have a second term. My kid is brilliant, and more importantly, unlike Trump he listens to advice, can take no for an answer, and gives a shit about having a functional democracy four years from now.
A second Trump term is an existential threat to the nation. Hold your nose, hold your neighbor's nose if you have to, but every able-bodied patriot owes it to their descendants and their patriotic ancestors to prevent a second Trump term.
Biden went around congress to ship weapons to Israel. Painting him as helpless here is pure misinformation.
It's not like he can just take Bibi out. He's not Boeing.
Well, he is the President of the United States. We may have to pretend Bibi is a socialist though.
Put a Columbia University T-shirt on him!
Old america vs Israeli desert trooper guy? That's going to be an interesting one
Your ten-year-old is more mature than Trump.
Not a joke.
Ten year old?! Thats a high bar for most republicans these days. They want knee jerk and whining. Thats something most 10 year olds are already figuring out doesnt get them what they want.
That's basically my point. That, and how Trump brags that he hasn't matured past the age of six.
I’m 100% sure trump would have taken charge over there because it was taking too long.
Genocide? Hold my beer.
I still can’t figure out how he got in the first time.
Electoral College, should not exist.
I still can't figure out how he got in the first time.
I'd point out that the first step in changing somebody's mind on a topic is always to figure out why they believe and behave as they do.
Certain important people need to keep selling spyware, drugs, guns and war to keep themselves and their associates employed. As for whether the funds or the actual work (conflict) available is sustainable is for everyone including the accountants to consider.
The other problem is that war doesn't really die, we just displace where we choose to fight, and how, if we imagine physical and cyber world peace for a moment, for the USA or China to reduce its military capacity by one third, or one tenth, we would see absolute chaos, thousands unemployed, the losses in maintenance and equipment, military supplies, medical, etc, nobody would win.
Any complex society where financial and other systems operate needs a minimum degree of social enforcement to maintain. Whether that can change like a function or is something that depends on a country's GDP is another issue.
Just consider that humanity would either need lots of free time, energy and money or it would literally need to feel incredibly threatened by something on earth, which we all could not fight to control in order to actually fund going to space or even the moon, and I doubt a triple whammy of pandemic, food shortage or severe draught and floods could do it, it happened in the Bible and people literally just found more dumb reasons to do more dumb things, and no lowering mens testosterone or telling guys to shave more often wouldn't do shit either. If people don't find reasons to explore or learn, they find reasons to fight/play fight, it's pretty normal, and if anyone remembers their childhood, usually it's pretty much the same across generations.
I mean, he fundamentally does have the power to veto laws. There are potentially negative political consequences in doing so, but he certainly has that power.
"I still can't figure out how he got in the first time"
Easy. He was propped up by democrats, namely Hillary Clinton.
If we reach a point 40 years from now when your choice is between a dem supporting 5 genocides and a republican supporting 10 genocides, are you still going to be militantly democrat and lash out at leftists who are sick of the whole thing?
woohoo. 10 genocides but such a moral victory.
In this hypothetical we wouldn't have the option to vote 40 years from now because dim bulbs allowed an insurrectionist to be elected. Donald will also accelerate climate fuckery so anyway we'll be too busy squabbling over what meager food comes out of the remaining arable regions.
Purely hypothetical question for you: Would you rather continue supporting Israel or see Biden win the 2024 election?
Enjoy the extra genocide Donald "Muslim ban" Trump brings to the conflict and starts up locally. You guys really want him to "finish the job," huh?
That's pretty repugnant IMO, but people like you are privileged enough to watch from afar as others lose their rights and their lives.
By not answering the question and participating in the process of this hypothetical choice the outcome is Israel is supported and Joe Biden loses the 2024 election.
You think you will still be able to vote in 40 years if Donald "dictator for a day" Trump gets elected this time?
Oh my sweet summer child. Your vote will be as meaningful as the ones in Russia.
So if a Trump presidency means the end of democracy in America, why hasn't Trump been outlawed?
Why is Biden focusing on banning TikTok instead of truth social? Why weren't the courts getting stacked 2 years ago? Why are the democrats' obsession with "precedent" and "civility" taking more primacy than outlawing a candidate who, by their own admission, would mean the end of democracy?
By propping up Trump, the democrats have effortlessly oriented you such that you now give blind support to a genocidal regime. You've given the democrats a blank check. The democrats would rather lose to Trump and usher in fascism than shift left in the slightest way (halting genocide).
Also, epic reddit catchphrase my good sir. I tip my hat you, for you are a gentleman and a scholar.
When I was young my parents introduced me to some old school Communists; folks who'd fought in the Spanish Civil War and been blacklisted in the 1950s.
One of the stories they told was that back in 1968 the oldtimers were warning people to vote for Hubert Humphrey because they knew how bad Nixon would be, Too many young folks then thought 'both sides are the same.'
I don't know much about him, but reading that he lost the young people vote for supporting the Vietnam War is such a good parallel for today.
Damn, it sounds like he shouldn't have supported that war. If only people had warned him about it.
Here's a cool tidbit that's probably gonna end up in the history books.
When asked if the protests have made him reconsider his policies in the region, Biden said "no."
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/biden-speaks-college-protests-israel-gaza-war/story?id=109870179
LBJ realized he'd made a giant mistake and hoped Humphrey could end the War. Nixon ran as a 'peace' candidate and made things much worse.
Trump's people would nuke the entire Middle East hoping to bring about the Rapture.
At what point does Biden realize he's made a giant mistake? You're lecturing us for not paying attention to history. Is Biden?
Turn it around.
Can you lay out a detailed plan showing Biden exactly what to do? Something that covers not just the Palestinians and the Israelis, but alos the iranians, the sryians, the russians, the Saudis, and all the other interested and highly armed parties in the region?
I have no idea how to restart a problem that's been formenting since 1948, do you?
Stop shipping weapons to Israel.
If you think it's that simple, you probably believed Trump was going to get Mexico to pay for the Wall.
You asked me a question and I answered it. Are you going to answer my question now?
At what point does Biden realize he’s made a giant mistake? You’re lecturing us for not paying attention to history. Is Biden?
Or hell, let me ask you. Given the choice between supporting Israel or Biden winning the election which would you choose?
You're very funny.
You act as if you have absolutely zero understanding of the complexities of the situation, and then demand that I ignore them, too.
Israel has nukes. Think they wouldn't use them if Iran invaded? Think they wouldn't throw a few at Mecca and Moscow as a farewell gift?
That's just one thing I've thought about. Biden probably has fifty worse scenarios from people who have studied the situation for years.
Pretending that just stopping is a realistic option is childish at best.
Are you upset that the choice you have in front of you is too reductive?
In a word, yes.
I say that it's an incredibly complex situation that has baffled some of the finest political and diplomatic minds of the past 100 years.
You say it isn't complicated.
Just remember that Israel has nuclear weapons, and I for one would not like to see those weapons get used.
In a word, yes.
Yes I agree it's upsetting when the choice placed in front of you is too reductive. I know exactly how you feel. But sometimes that's how life is. What's your choice?
Biden is dealing with a hugely complex issue that has baffled diplomats for over a century.
My choice is to trust Biden. The other option is to not vote for him and hope that Trump doesn't do more of the stuff he did last time; allow mobs to kill innocent people; destroy the economy; roll back enviromental laws; roll back LGBTQ+ laws; make abortion a punishable offence; and Trump would probably give Israel more nukes.
I don't trust Biden one bit. Still better than Trump, though.
Biden can't decide that
It was decided by a treaty like 75 years ago.
To overthrow it would take massive changes and breaking contracts. Doable, but not in the time frame you want.
It really isn't as simple as you think.
jesus, well this is cementing my choice to move to a deep blue state to get away from people politicizing my existence.
Assuming you're in the LGBT spectrum ... sorry to say even there you might not be safe if Trump gets a second term. Things have softened for the LGB so those folks might be okay, but trans folks ... I'd be worried.
It also weakens purple states and national power when blue voters move out of purple states... Personally, I'd highly encourage folks moving to purple states to turn them more blue.
Michigan or Pennsylvania might be a good choice. I keep holding out for Ohio, but we need to give the gerrymandering issues (hopefully we finally will this year).
As a trans person in a deep blue state, I'm hoping my state's politics give me just enough buffer time that I can find a way to GTFO before the gestapo comes for me
Yeah, nowhere is confirmed safe. Fascism is attempting to ascend. Welcome to the 1930s, get a passport and fill a backpack with non perishable calorie dense food.
Living in Ohio with my trans husband, we're moving to Vermont this summer to get away from it all. I feel like I'm shirking my duty by taking our votes with us, but we really don't want to be here come November. Ohio has gone to Trump two for two, and I'm not feeling lucky on number three.
Do what's right for you and your partner, and then we can all continue to work on community, state, and country!!!
I'll miss your vote, but I totally get it. Stay safe!
Go to Vermont. Like, seriously. Even though that state has a republican governor, Vermont is like one of the few states that gives a shit about a lot of rights.
The communist party of America consistently votes democrat and doesn’t run a candidate. Same with the American Nazi party and republicans.
My attitude is simple, deal with the problems you can impact. The 2024 elections will not result in a loss of support for Israel. A fascist wants to run a coup in America. That’s on the table, he’s running for president. That’s a problem we can deal with.
There's a line from the last season of 'The West Wing' that I always think of.
It's election Day and the GOP and Dem campaign managers run into each other in the hotel bar. One turns to the other and tells this story.
"Got into the cab at the airport and started chatting with the cab driver. He's a really smart guy and we're having a great chat. Just before I get out I ask him who he's voting for today.
"He shakes his head. Damn, he tells me, I forgot it was election Day.'
Yepppp, I’ve had to tell so many people. I think it’s one of the benefits I got from being raised by a dyed in the wool democrat. We’d argue over a lot as I was pretty radical even as a teenager, but she taught me the value of voting and participating in the democratic process. And arguing with her taught me the value of convincing everyday folks of your position.
I hate to tell the demsocs that we probably won’t elect away the capital holding class, I’d love it if we could, but we won’t. But we sure as shit can fail to vote to keep our worker protections and environmental protections. And we can vote to get a better situation, it just won’t be a revolution all on its own.
I wish I could force every school to show what the original New Deal programs would look like if implemented today.
Exactly. It’s just concessions, but life’s a hell of a lot better with those concessions.
We watched Donald do worse than Watergate on live news broadcasts.
Hmm, what to do? Better throw my ballot in the trash, because I am against genocide. If anything gets worse under this openly racist putsch planner screeching about dictatorship and absolute immunity, well, there was no way to have seen that coming, right?
I mean I dunno maybe they shouldn't have ran a guy named hubert humphrey, sounds like the name you'd give to a fictional whale in a children's novel hoo lee
Hi. I’m not American. But we all understand Trump’s threats. Or the inherent threat he poses. I think I speak for the world.
I’m more worried about a system that let someone like that get this far!
there is an understandable wave of nihilism manifesting in the younger generations that will probably persist for as long as they live. i don't imagine the united states will stop producing nihilists for a long time as the circumstances are not projected to change
I almost wish Jimmy Carter would run for a second term. 99? 82? Age is just a number now apparently anyway lol
But but but I won't vote in protest1 That will definitely make them listen! (/s)
PSA: Not voting means you have the relevance of an old man yelling at a cloud.
You move the Overton window by voting. You want policy #857? You have to vote for policy #1 first. You have to walk before you can run.
I just want one of the "You can't vote for Biden!" people to outline what I should do instead. What's the play here? Dismantle the government? Sure, outline your plan and let's see if it has any merit. Protest? Great, tell me when and where but it doesn't preclude the need to vote.
They talk big, but if their entire plan begins with "don't vote" and ends with "bitch about it online" then it's not a great plan.
I just got a deranged one https://reddthat.com/comment/10184028
despite the genocide!
As if the other option isn't also genocide 🙄
Why is it so hard to ask for an option that isn't genocide?
Because a First-Past-The-Post voting system doesn't care about your ideals. Until we have a different system, literally your only hope of effecting change is to vote for one of the two partied candidates and work locally to influence your party from the bottom-up.
Voting third party doesn't send a message you want it to send. It doesn't send any message at all except "I approve of whatever you choose for me."
Because capitalism profits from genocide. The question then is, are you ok with diet Palestinian genocide or would you prefer the supersized Palestinian genocide combo with a side of homegrown genocide?
There are 2 sets of voters in this nation.
Those who want to solve the problems we face, and those who just want to kick the can down the road for someone else while rich people get richer.
If you vote for republicans or democrats, you're in the latter camp.
It really puts things into perspective when you think about it like this.
If you want to move the Overton window, you vote. That's the perspective you need.
The Overton window is not something that can be changed electorally. Candidates can only get on the ballot in the first place if they’re within the Overton window, as anybody outside the window is “radical” or “extreme”, and the existing political powers forbid their candidacy. The electoral window is moved outside the electoral process, and only then can the electoral system permit new candidates with new ideas.
Lol yes it can. Why are we having idiotic discussion to disband the EPA? Because Trump won an election. That moved the Overton window, drastically at that. Why can't Biden do ______? Because the Republicans still have a very real chance of winning. When the GOP has no chance of winning, then the Overton window can move more.
When the GOP has no chance of winning, then the Overton window can move more.
Then Biden should be listening to the people he's depending on to get re-elected.
You get more from the center than you do the fringes. Aka you can't do radical policy unless you know you'll still win.
So... were just ignoring the current candidates? And the current debates and policies that each have pushed?
Yeah. You need to vote for candidates that don't just look out for rich people.
Those people are never on my ballot, unfortunately.
How do you get that? By moving the Overton window. And how do you get that? By VOTING. But it seems you want to yell at a cloud instead. Something tells me you'll just keep at this 'whoo is me', so I'm out.
I said "we need to vote for candidates that don’t just look out for rich people."
Wrong. The party that can "move left" went to court to assert their right to do what they want regardless of voters, and have an equal hand in moving the goalposts anytime a third party comes close to the requirements for inclusion. Hell, just look at their messaging - they don't even talk about Republicans or their policies, they just namedrop trump then blame leftists for all their woes.
"MoVe ThE oVeRtOn WiNdOw (even though they openly and pointedly snipped completely off anything left of mid right genocide Joe)"
The answer is guillotines and anyone who says otherwise are well off liberals who would rather have Trump than redistribute wealth and resources.
Meanwhile, the Overton window has been shifting right radically. Seems like this lesser of two evils nonsense is actually doing the opposite of what you claim.
Moved because Trump won an election. But you want to suggest that's just random? C'mon.
*Btw it's moving the Overton window, not lesser of two evils as you want to put it. You want policy number 426? You have to vote for policy 1 first. You have to walk before you can run.
What are you talking about? We have been moving rightward ever since the Clinton administration, baring a handful of social issues. Are you genuinely telling me that we are more left leaning now than we were under the new deal politics before Reagan?
All we've progressed in is gay and civil rights, which is good. Economically and by most other metrics, we've slid Faaaaar to the right.
It's not a good look for your position on slow incremental change that the entire apparatus can collapse in one election.
You said radical, that was Trump. You think Clinton change was radical? No that was Trump. Can't forget Bush either! You know the one that lied his way into war. But you want to suggest everything was all Clintons fault or something? C'mon be better than this weird game you're playing. Like really, do you think it would be more right or more left without Bush and Trump? That's the Overton window.
BTW Clinton had to be moderate because he was going against an incumbent.
Yeah I could go over different issues, but you're already trying to poopoo them away. So I'll broadly address economics with we have regulated capitalism. One party wants to remove regulation (Gop because I think you're trying to be obtuse) and be entirely free for all, no EPA or anything. And one wants proper regulation (again, Dems because think you're trying to be obtuse).
And because or your silly weird games, I'm out.
And because or your silly weird games, I’m out.
Don't let the door hit you on the way out!
What problem do you believe you're solving by making it easier for Trump to take office?
Are you offended that women still have some control over their reproductive health, and you need to see that eroded further?
Is it a problem that we aren't allowed to sexually assault people without repurcussion?
Do you see issues with people still being allowed to vote?
Do you hate legal immigrants, which have consistently lost rights and been victimized by the Republican party over the past few administrations?
Do you dislike your ability to relatively-freely travel abroad, due to our many alliances?
Do you wish we had a giant wall that has been proven ineffective by virtually every single study on the subject, including GOP-backed ones?
Do you wish we were helping Israel commit genocide even harder than they already are?
My issue is that while we squabble over social issues, the ruling class fucks us with fiscal ones.
Greed and the growing disparity in wealth is the worst issue we face as a species.
If Biden wins we lose. If Trump wins we lose harder. Each option results in a loss because we don't want actually want to address the disparity in wealth.
If Biden wins we lose. If Trump wins we lose harder.
...and you think we need to lose harder?
Or do you actually believe that the system that has had the same outcome literally every single election has a chance to produce a different result? How many third-party candidates have received more than 1.5% of the vote? I'll help: exactly FOUR in the past HUNDRED YEARS.
Or do you actually just want Trump to win and are using your enlightened centrist persona to disguise that fact?
I think a slow loss is still a loss and we shouldn't cheer when people like Biden get elected over people like Bernie.
If you notice, the disparity in wealth is still growing at an increasing-rate. That's why "the economy is doing good." Not for me or you. But for the rich people who control who we can vote for.
The minuscule amount of support for third parties exemplifies the number of people who actually want to reduce the disparity in wealth.
It really puts into perspective who is a useful idiot, and who is not.
You are truly privileged that you don't need to worry about more utterly corrupt Fundamentalists on SCOTUS.
Self-righteous bullshit. I want to solve problems someday and that's precisely why I vote for Democrats. Letting Trumpists take over now will make any progress vastly harder for the foreseeable future.
You're one of the latter.
Let me know when democrats start supporting policies that reduce the disparity in wealth.
We saw everything we needed to see with Bernie. Neither establishment party cares about regular, working class people.
Ah, so since one of your two options doesn't give you everything you want, you've decided that you're okay with the one that wants to take away everything you have. Cool story, good luck with that.
No, it doesn't have to be everything I want.
It has to be supporting policies that reduce the disparity in wealth, not exacerbate it.
Looking at how many people actually vote for 3rd parties puts into perspective how many people actually want to solve this issue.
Also, try letting people use their own words. You were wrong about your assumptions and hyperbole, but i think instead of admitting you're wrong you're just going to assume more.
Looking at how many people actually vote for 3rd parties puts into perspective how many people actually want to solve this issue.
...effectively no-one, as far as country-wide population statistics are concerned? What percentage of the vote went third-party in the last three elections? Gary Johnson (8 years ago) got a whole 3%, and that was massive compared to anyone in the past 30 years... basically unprecedented. Those numbers barely broke 1% last time.
Yes. That's my point. A ridiculously minuscule amount of people actually want to reduce the disparity in wealth.
Support for 3rd parties exemplifies that.
I'm sorry, but no, it doesn't. Most people are just living in a reality where voting third-party gets the worst option elected, because that's historically its only effect.
Look, I'm not gonna fight you, it's clear that your mind is made up. Just think about the probability of your choices, and think about how much you appreciate the ability to even vote... because that's the actual argument, here. Trump has laid out his plans, and you're welcome to ignore them, but most people don't have that luxury, they need to vote in ways that don't have a chance to lead to their culling.
because that’s historically its only effect.
Yeah, that's my entire point. 3rd parties don't win because they actually support policies that reduce the disparity in wealth.
These problems do not get solved because we don't want to solve them.
You're making false assumptions about what people's voting habits say about what they want, drawing absurd conclusions as a result, and then doubling down on your false assumptions even when real people tell you what they want why they vote the way they do. Here's a clue for you: other people know their own beliefs and motivations a hell of a lot better than you do. It's supremely arrogant for you to think otherwise.
Here’s a clue for you: other people know their own beliefs and motivations a hell of a lot better than you do.
I wish you could say that to most of the people replying to me assuming I'm a trump supporter, lol.
You might not be a Trump supporter, but your actions support Trump. That's not really debatable.
Right. I'm either with you, or against you.
Literally yes, in the voting system that the US has. This isn't some ideological hill I'm dying on, this is basic statistics and understanding of elections.
Lol, sure.
Have you tried acting less like one?
Tribalists can, and will, believe whatever they want.
It would be foolish of me to change myself to please them.
Your lack of self awareness is truly a sight to behold.
Sure, bud.
Let me know when another party gets more than a single digit percent of the vote.
We're working on it. Demonstrating the Democratic party is no longer viable is our current strategy.
But, you know if moderate and liberal voters wanted to show up in force at these protests that might not be necessary.
Ridin' with Biden despite the genocidin'
Let’s vote for trump and get some American boots on the ground! Can’t let the IDF take all of the glory!
You misspelled Netanyahu. Also you will have egg on your face from head to toe when you find out what Biden is really doing to stop the killing in the Mideast.
Welcome to Lemmy, new account!
You move the Overton window by voting.
We did in 2020. It moved rightward.
Lol you think Biden is right of Trump. Right well thank you for letting me know I don't have to reply any further.
Not what I said but cool.
I could sus it like you think Biden moved it right (lol), but that requires you ignore Trump would have actually moved it rght, which is exactly the Overton window is moving it as left as you can every step, but why the fuck am I bothering even with this you'll just say but but but but but but Biden bad! I'm out.
Bush moved it right. Obama moved it right. Trump moved it right. Biden moved it right.
Called it! Ok really that's it.
Okiedokie.
Is that the sole measure of the overton window?
Is it fair to say that the overton window is only moving right when we are still making progress moving it left?
The overton window isn't a zero-sum measure. It can expand simultaneously in both directions. Given that we have nazis in the street now, I'd say it's not correct to say that it's moving only left either.
That has little to do with whatever political machinations are occurring and more to do with housing and necessities inflation driving labor pressure as a lagging inflation indicator.
Think of it as a tectonic/landscape thing rather than the stupid games people happen to be playing on the landscape.
Of course if any of them had their heads out of their own asses, or the asses of their owners, they might recognize this and start adapting...
Bernie is right.
He's right frighteningly often.
I still don't understand why he'll never be president except, ofc, he would never play the games that come with politics these days.
America is fast losing its chance for redemption.
Because when idiots hear Socialism they see Communism and it's frighteningly easy to start a red scare propaganda campaign to keep him off the big ticket.
The guy who fixes my car basically runs a French-style salon out of his shop, and he told me, "The South Will never vote Socialist." Seems he's right so far. That and he goes against the powers that be... Bernie would have been a nightmare for the rich and powerful.
He got outpolitiked in the 2020 primary. Really the only reason why he's not president right now.
He had 4 years to shore up his weakness with black southern voters and never did. He could've offered Bootyjudge VP in exchange for staying in the race and keeping the center vote split but didn't.
The Unconcerned: "Orange man bad"
Me: YES! Orange man VERY bad, glad we were able to dumb it down for you in a way you can understand it.
Personally, i'm worried that the biden administration is underestimating the electoral importance of his decision to continue supporting Israel's genocide against Palestinians.
I think it would be helpful if people tranformed their concerns from meaningless doomposting to active political effort.
Cause the first is almost as bad as not worrying at all.
That sound... As if millions of "muh corrupt DNC" trolls cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced...
I'm not worried. I'm just utterly disappointed in the younger generation. Not in the whole typical way you'd expect older generations to be towards the younger ones.
It's more along the sense of "put down your fucking memes and jokes for abit and realize the reality that's around you" deal. Because we're now seeing the Onion practiced in our daily lives, we can't make the shit up that is actively happening in real time. And it doesn't affect just me, it affects you too.
We can't be putting off this shit forever and sit there going "aww, I just hope it gets better" naturally.
Because let's put it this way, say you don't vote this general election and Biden wins. Okay, cool, we've dodged Trump. But know that in the next 4 years, Biden is not eligible to be re-elected so good on you to no longer see him on the ballot, but you'll never know who could be next after him and there isn't a lot of strong favorability for his VP either. Trump for all we know, is likely going to run until he dies, so he's going to be trying again and again so long as he's living and so long as his voter base is there to back him.
But even when he dies, god knows what the Republicans will try propping up. We've got a bit of a glimpse of that when known fascists like DeSantis tried running for presidency. The only reason him and other candidates has lost is because they can't touch Trump. But when Trump does die, you know they'll be back again.
My point is we need to keep Republican interests the fuck away. They're nothing but destruction. How much evidence do you need before you see that? It's all fun and games to you with your jokes and memes until you're on the internet bitching and griping for why you think shit hits the fan or why you're struggling to make a living.
as a black person i'm worried that donald trump's batting average isn't showing the potential it should be this season. he should spend more time in the cages.
Recently came across project 2025, which is a plan to upend the government for trump to run it like a dictatorship. It's actually frightening to even entertain the possibility. And I'm guessing it's derived from how putin got to his dictatorship position, because trump really likes putin and met with him too often.
Its called apathy.
Make everyones vote count (mandatory voting) and all of a sudden it matters
I wish less people were so jaded about voting...
I'll say, the guy is taking abortion rights away.
Man, I'd been ignoring the dread and focussing on the cool parts of the future that are coming, but this thread mamaged to break through my shield and fill me with a decent amount of WW3 dread
My early-20's cousin-in-law the other day said something like "I don't want to vote for Biden or Trump, they're both the same". He's getting locked up for killing me, because I died when I heard him say that. (I went on to explain to him that they are NOT the same.)
Them run Bernie. You aren't that much older than Biden. You are clearly more with it and cogent and your foreign policy is better by miles.
Balance:
a) damage done by another Trump presidency
vs
b) damage done by demonstrating to the ruling class that you'll give them whatever they want so long as you genuinely fear one of the candidates
Tough call. I wish each and every one of you who has a say in this clairvoyance beyond mine.
This mf spittin
Someone ask the old fella to do a press release or a road map presentation to convince us all
We’re not. Biden is.
If he actually was worried he’d look at the polls and call for a ceasefire.
Young people? How about Democrat party leadership? If you need certain people to vote for you, then you have to earn their votes! How is this so hard to understand?
Or maybe people are overestimating his survivability in the hardest job in the planet. My prediction is no matter the victor, by January of 2029, the outgoing president will neither be Trump or Biden.
Old fuckers shouldn't have put us in this situation.
I've come to the conclusion from this thread and others that liberals either don't believe or can't comprehend that leftists consider Palestinians to be actual human beings whose lives are inherently valuable. The way they see it, we're whiny children throwing a fit because we were refused a puppy. I keep seeing people talk about opposition to genocide as "an individual want" or "being upset that you got bread instead of a cake," and so on, characterizing us as selfishly prioritizing our individual preferences, because in their minds it's just about us feeling bad when we see dying Palestinians, and not about the Palestinians themselves.
Opposition to genocide is a hard red line and a fundamental moral principle. It's not a want, it's not a preference, it is a demand which is absolutely non-negotiable.
I'm never going to be convinced to vote for Biden, but if you actually care about convincing leftists, then you're shooting yourself in the foot by trivializing the issue. Of course, the most effective way to convince an opponent of genocide to support a politician would be to get the politician to stop supporting genocide, but if you choose to focus you efforts on getting leftists to stop opposing genocide instead, I can't stop you.
okay real question for the omega libs here: where do you see people that are like. worth taking seriously, right, that are worth engaging with (maybe that's the major filter that I'm blocking out here since most people seem incapable of choosing who they actually want to engage with), who are the people that are worth engaging with that aren't going to vote for the old zionist rapist guy? I mean, the democractic one? I'm pulling your chain there but like for real, where do you see the opposition that's actually real?
Most of the shit that I've seen, still, is like, people rightfully saying "oh, biden sucks, here's why", and then people bringing up "trump's worse". Like okay, just because I hate pancakes doesn't mean I suddenly love waffles, you know? Food analogy I know I know, but really, like, where's the real opposition coming from? I'm discounting the super pro-biden turbolibs also, because they annoy me with their smugness. So far as I can tell, the people who are fervently anti-biden to the point of like, idiocy, right, weren't going to vote for him basically in any context, regardless of you know like damage control strategies, or the fact that voting didn't take that much effort in totality compared to other activism they might do, or like, oh, could they vote as a protest in a non-swing state that's basically guaranteed commitment to biden already as a kind of protest vote with questionable utility, that sort of thing. Most of the "opposition" I've seen hasn't been actually calculated about any of that, because none of that stuff is really very controversial, or, it shouldn't be. Most of them have just been like, not worth bothering with. Probably not russian bots or trolls like everyone would constantly say, because that's also fucking idiotic, but probably, they're just stupid people who aren't worth wasting your time on.
Basically why the fuck is everyone wasting their time on this like, stupid bullshit? How come every election, in equal measure, I see "vote blue no matter who" imbeciles trotted out in lock step, to shout down at "I will never vote for anyone because I'm a posadist accelerationist" terminally online idiots? There's no nuance or real depth to the conversation, or strategy, it's just like. Both sides can construct a strawman, and then basically get away with it because, on the vastness of the internet, said strawman is guaranteed to exist, especially if I make it kind of a vague ghost that I'm punching at. And then because of that, nobody ever has to actually like, work out any of their arguments in depth, because they're too busy kind of churning forth the cycle of idiocy.
I dunno, maybe digg 3.0 is just not conducive to good political discourse.
"The solution is to mobilize the American people, working-class people, Black, white, Latino, Native American, whatever they may be, to come together, to fight for a government, which represents all of us, and not just the few."
So the kids who are on college campuses getting shot with rubber bullets and beaten by armed thugs aren't fighting?
No one said that, you've drawn a conclusion not based on the actual words written here.
So then they're doing exactly what he said we should do, but since the protests undermine Biden's electoral chances it means they are underestimating the threat of Trump.
If we can't allow Democrats to ever lose, how exactly do we fight?
By voting in primaries.
There's more than just the president. Local elections and specifically primaries are what reshape the representative body.
I agree primaries are a great way to influence candidates.
That's probably why the Democratic party effectively cancelled them this year.
Really? They cancelled local primaries? That's news to me.
Or do you just mean that they didn't have a significant primary for a sitting party candidate for President, just like pretty much every candidate in history in that same position for any party?
I too would have liked a serious primary for this year, but that would have been a significant exception, not the rule.
The only way it really would have happened is if Biden decided not to run at all.
Can you explain how the Democratic party "effectively cancelled" primaries this year? I guess I'm wondering what I voted on back in March if it wasn't the Democratic primary ballot
By voting in primaries
You mean like I've been doing for 24 years with no measurable effect? And get told that the person I support in the primary isn't electable so I'm letting the Republicans win?
The thing about voting is that other people get to do it too. Your candidates didn't get the most votes. Do you think they should have won anyway, because you liked them the most?
Of course not. But don't then go tell me that voting changes things, because I've seen that it doesn't.
By voting in primaries
Guess you don't follow politics much. The teabaggers followed that formula and eventually took control of the GOP in form of MAGA. It takes time and commitment otherwise you just get what others create. This isn't an instant gratification thing. Voting a couple of times isn't going to cut it.
MAGA's takeover required cooperation from the more moderate Republicans. If moderate Republicans refused to vote for Trump in the general he never would have won.
Meanwhile liberal and moderate Democrats are celebrating the police raids on the protestors. But you think if we manage to get a decent candidate through the primaries they'll show up to vote?
Did you miss the part where I said I've been doing it for 24 years?
The Democratic party today is significantly more progressive than it was 24 years ago, so I'm going to give you kudos
No measurable effect? You sure there's not one single decent person in either the Senate or the House? Or if there are, then how did they get there...?
Not one I voted for
Yea, it's true that not everyone gets a decent candidate.
By voting in primaries AND supporting good candidates down stream, but FIRST we must vote to ensure we will be able to do this. If the young people don't vote and fuck up their future, it's their future in the toilet.
By voting in primaries
You're making an assumption here that if progressives and leftists managed to get decent candidates through the primaries the moderates and liberals who we will still depend on to win general elections will show up to vote for them. That confidence is absolutely baseless.
The DNC has literally argued, successfully, in court, that is has every right to rig its own primaries.
Voting in primaries is pointless unless that changes.
That's the neat part: Their future is already in the toilet.
We saw how well it worked to let them lose in 2016
I voted in that election, too. Didn't seem to help much.
Oh. We can definitely allow Democrats to lose, just not to the right wing.
Trumps not president. Biden is.
Young people have lost their minds and are acting irrationally.
We're not underestimating a damn thing, we're ignoring it because the feds have proven that nothing we do will change anything.
I’ll take deeply flawed democracy over fascist autocracy every day of the week, thanks.
The establishment is not going to give up, they must be beaten at their own game. Perseverance is key. If you give up, you give up on your cause and accept whatever the establishment wishes.
Do what you want, but I will persevere, and I will vote for my interests.
That argument is also best brought out when it's obvious that we have a clear choice of what's best for the country.
2004? Bush vs Kerry. The lesser evil was Kerry.
2008? Obama vs McCain? The lesser evil was Obama.
2012? Obama vs Romney? The lesser evil was Obama.
2016? Trump vs Clinton. There wasn't any lesser evil.
2020? Trump vs Biden. Biden at the time was lesser evil.
2024? Trump vs Biden again. There isn't any lesser evil, only difference is who's gonna do less damage.
2016 Hillary was the lesser evil...funny ur misogyny is showing.
People don't seem to realize that every time they downvote an opinion like this, they're just further alienating the left.
Yeah and downvoting a racist will just alienate them and push them further right, and yet we still downvote.
While occasionally someone might realize that they are in the wrong, the value of condemnation is in signaling to the community that such views are not tolerated.
Racist? Lol OK.
Part of me wants to vote in Trump. Let shit come to a head sooner rather than later.
Threat to what? He was already president and I didn't feel threatened, what has happened that makes him so scary? Actual honest question
New account. Only comment.
And the last one i’ll see
It's almost like other people exist, and almost like they're affected in a different way than you are by who is in charge of the government. Seriously though, I thought "it doesn't affect me, so it must not be a problem" wasn't supposed to be an actual argument.
Conservatives cannot grasp this concept.
Until it happens to them
To name one example, he deregulated the inspection of train safety, despite internal whistleblowers (who were ofc subsequently fired) claiming that the industry was not regulating itself in anything remotely resembling a "safe" manner. Keep in mind, this was before all those famous train derailments happened. Multiple people especially train engineers predicted they would happen, they went to a large amount of trouble - and were fired as a result - of warning that they would happen, but Trump ignored all of that and deregulated the industry to help make it more profitable... and then the derailments happened, whereupon we all paid the price. Socialization of costs, privatization of profits, it is the exact opposite of both socialism and of capitalism both - it was sheer foolishness, period.
And ofc there was his handling of the pandemic - note the initial cause of the pandemic was not his fault, but his poor handling of it is on him. First, at minimum, if nothing else "the buck stops here". But above & beyond the latter, as the audio recording with Bob Woodsworth revealed, Trump knew that the virus was airborne - he told his friend that much - and yet even knowing that, afterwards he lied and told people that it explicitly was not airborne (again, to aid "the economy", at the expense of the workers who died as a result). When others, e.g. Bill Clinton, have lied previously, conservatives got angry and tried to impeach them - and rightfully so - so why ignore it when it happens on the other side? Also this lie, measured in the form of "excess deaths", contributed to the deaths of more Americans than all of our wars combined. That seems like "harm" to me.
Then too there is how he inserted himself between a Congressional decision and the intended recipient of funding, with his attempt to blackmail the Ukrainian government to "just do me a favor though". By some definitions of the word that might even have constituted "treason" - I am no lawyer though, so be skeptical ofc, especially extreme claims require more extreme evidence, which the first impeachment trial was meant to bring forth except it was halted by Republicans in Congress.
The list really can go on and on... whatever you think of conservative vs. liberal philosophies, or of Republican vs. Democrat politics, he really was quite a dangerous President. Yes, most of us are still alive after his Presidency, but again... many of us are not now, with a good number of those deaths directly traceable to his decisions. Biden may not be "good", but extremely few Presidents in all of American history come close to how dangerous Trump was, by many objective metrics. History will reveal that, but right now it can be difficult to distinguish b/t the lying liberal media and the lying conservative media sources both lie, for the sake of their own profits. In all of that muddiness of facts, it can be super difficult to find out what is really going on. But the fate of people in and maybe the fate of our actual nation is on the line, so it is worth the effort for those of us who would consider ourselves "leaders" aka citizens, whose votes will determine the course ahead for us all.
What are the three worst things he caused during his years in the White House, according to you?
Tax cuts to the rich and powerful, weakening our reputation of being a mighty nation that at least tries to defend freedom and independence by pinning Ukraine aid on whether they helped him personally, gutting rules that protect the little guys from big corporations.
Using the government to directly benefit his businesses. Out in the open, high level corruption. Allowing foreign governments to directly put money in his pockets through his businesses. Refusing to concede he lost a free and fair election, even to this day. Instigating violence in an attempt to hold onto power after losing re-election. Setting policy by Tweet without consulting anyone or having a plan to roll it out. Left his underlings utterly confused as to what was going on. Refusing to admit errors. Lying to cover up errors. Getting rushed to the hospital for treatment of severe COVID and then walking around the White House without a mask. Absolutely set a terrible example. Inconsistent messaging about best practices for Americans during the pandemic. Illegally holding up aid to Ukraine as leverage to force Ukraine to announce an investigation into Joe Biden's son. Didn't even care if there actually was an investigation. Just wanted it announced. Was he promoting US policy goals or his own campaign for re-election? Pressuring the Attorney General to drop investigations of links between his campaign and Russian agents. Please don't think this is an exhausting list. There was at least a scandal a week during that guys terrible Presidency.
The question was Kenny for Tasti since he/she didn't see anything bad with Trump.