do you think freewill truly exists? - AOS for Lemmy.World - A generic Lemmy server for everyone to use.

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do you think freewill truly exists?

1y 24d ago by sh.itjust.works/u/Goku in lemmyshitpost from sh.itjust.works

Like yeah, exactly. With the right person, you can talk for hours and hours about all kinds of stuff that interests you.

with the right person you can also be quiet with for hours

One of the best relationships I ever had.

We still don't talk sometimes

This! Silence is so much better than unnecessary and forced talking

But also meaningless bullshit. That does not denote a bad relationship.

Exactly. I can't remember where I heard this - it might have been a podcast like RadioLab or something else - but it was talking about how happily married, intelligent couples talk to each other .

It turns out, it's not usually super deep, intelligent conversations. The vast majority of conversations are just meaningless bullshit. Most of the time, couples aren't even really talking to each other, but they're just kind of thinking aloud. Stupid stuff like, "I swear I saw a dozen blue Volkswagens today."

It turns out that people who are comfortable with each other don't need to have deep conversations all the time. They can just relax, unwind, and be themselves.

My partner will talk to herself, loud enough to be audible, but not (to deaf me.) loud enough to be coherent. Drives me fucking insane. I have my ways of driving her insane.

That may be a blessing for the both of you, friend.

Sorry mate, that’s gone right over my head. She’s said to me that “love is putting up with your partners downsides”. I’m a massive pain in the arse, so …

She's not wrong. I just meant her muttering may be about the downsides. Not always, ofc, because I'm single and still mutter.

Nah, it’s about what she’s doing or whatever’s going on.

The way I understand "Smalltalk" is not whether the subject matter is "serious enough" but rather whether either party actually has any interest in it, or if it is a polite nicety to avoid awkward silence.

Discussing the weather in a car ride with a coworker is smalltalk, contemplating with a friend how one might conquer the world using ant-controlling super powers is not.

This exactly. "Do you think free will exists" could, in fact, be small talk, if neither of you is particularly interested in the topic.

Small stuff doesn't really interest me, or my partner.

Doesn't mean we're incapable of discussing dinner plans or cleaning schedules.

Indeed I can confirm.

Just a few days ago I pondered the life of plants and asked my wife how she thinks the death of a plant is defined if for animals (including humans of course) it's mostly the heartbeat.

So when is a plant dead?

When you see its little planty soul waft up to heaven.

For hours, every day, for years or decades? That has never happened.

My wife and I will sit in the same room for hours and never speak a word to each other. We only talk when we have something to say, and we're both happy with that relationship. My sister thinks we're crazy, but we like it quiet.

My steppairents are like this and beeing with them, at a meal table, and have nobody say anything for 20 Minutes is so fucking wired. I am getting used to it, but it's still off as fuck.

I'm interested to know the dynamic that causes two step parents to be together like that. Is it one parent and one step parent or a step parent that remarried and now you have a step step parent?

Just two parents to a person named Step.

I like the word "pairents"

Thanks. That's actually one of my own words, but you can use it all you want if you wish to do so.

"Such weather we're having huh?"

Truly peak romance

But at least it’s a conversation you can work with “oh yeah it’s so nice we should go do X” or “yeah it’s crazy out there, we should stay in and watch a movie and snuggle” the point of small talk is to open avenues of conversation… I think people just don’t know how to have conversations anymore and chalk it up to “not liking small talk”. Observation and response is a perfectly normal way to start a conversation

I think it's more about your expectation from interactions with strangers. I will tolerate a ton of weather talk from my wife but if the guy taking my order at 5 Guys tries the same thing it's not going to be as well received.

Why? I like when strangers try to talk to me honestly

I think I like it more than most but not just to hear words out loud. If you have a story about the weather impacting your day that's much more interesting than just commenting on it in general.

It's raining in south latvia btw

Amazing

Yet sunny in central australia

Oh wow

It was sunny but chilly today in Ontario

Oh interesting. How was the cloud cover?

Fing raining today in Ankeny Iowa.

Aw man, I hope you packed your umbrella

I have! But the lovely people in Tokio don't have to, luckily. Over there it's cloudy, but no rain. 🕺🕺

None what so ever! Really sunny. Unlike Kuala Lumpur, with it's 60% humidity and heavy cloud cover! Imagine that!

we should go do X

we should stay in and watch a movie and snuggle

That's not small talk, that's planning what to do today. You can open the same conversation with "hey, what do you want to do today?"

And how will you plan anything if you don't know the weather genius???

I occasionally lecture my 3DPD wife about science facts and she hates it. She'll say things like "what?" And "I was just asking what we should do for dinner"

the point of small talk is to open avenues of conversation

If you're married to someone, all avenues of conversation should be open the minute you've both said hi. If you need to talk about the weather before you decide what to get for dinner, with your spouse, then your marriage is a failure.

You're probably joking, but know that there's a subset of us that gets pathologically anxious and confused by small talk. Autistic people for example. Different folks, different strokes. Not everyone deals well with talking about the weather, and that's ok. There's billions who do deal well with it, and that's ok too! Be a mensch and talk to them instead.

It's great that it worked out for you, and I'm happy for you, but we don't need to force everyone to fit the same mould.

Ah my bad, I thought you were complaining about people not wanting to engage in small talk, and I thought you were suggesting that people should just suck it up and talk about the weather even if they don't want to. I'm a bad communicator, and I sometimes misread stuff like that.

I had a hard enough time accepting it* for myself, and I can't expect a stranger on the internet to do so quicker than I did. I hope that some day you can reflect back on this conversation and realize you're being a bit of a dick about this.

[*]"It" meaning the inability to shape my social life the way "normal" people do it, and simultaneously live a happy and healthy life, and that this is not something that can be medicated or exercised away

No, we just stfu when we don't have anything interesting to talk about. It's not complicated.

Why do you think small talk isn't interesting? Sharing neat things that happened during the day is small talk. Talking about your hobbies is small talk. Talking about cool movies and TV shows is small talk. All interesting topics.

Is talking about your hobbies and interests really small talk? I always attributed small talk to the like of "how is it going? Fine thanks and you? Fine too thanks oh damn crap/great weather we are having huh?"

It absolutwly can be small talk.

Small talk is a low stakes way to build rapport without exchanging any information that is intimate, vulnerable, or confrontational.

Talking about the weather is boring small talk. I hate boring small talk very much, but small talk in general is important for building rapport with people you don't know well enough to be vulnerable with.

Talking about pop culture, like [TV SHOW] or [LOCAL TEAM], are also small talk.

"What have you been up to today?"

"I was fiddling with my ham radio, I contacted Portugal for the first time."

Bam. Small talk about a hobby.

Why do you think small talk isn't interesting?

because im sad, bitter, and socially inept

Because a great deal of it isn't interesting. I have to listen to all the ancient dudes I sit next too talk about the most innane crap all day long. I don't need that when I get home too.

I'm not saying all small talk is interesting I'm saying not all small talk is boring. For whatever reason people have it in their heads that if it's small talk, it's boring, and if it's not boring it isn't small talk. That's not what the phrase means though.

I get it, people can yap, and sometimes it is boring as hell. I'm not trying to say the boring conversations you overhear at work actually are thrilling.

Well put.

IDK what to tell you. I don't think of interesting conversations as small talk. That's not what I'm complaining about when I say I don't like small talk. What I think of as small talk is when people seem to have to run their mouths just to ruin a perfectly good silence with shit about the weather or sports or something. That's just how it is. If the conversation isn't going to go past small talk I'd be just as happy to not have it at all.

What are things you like to talk about? It's possible other people say the same thing you just did but list the topic you said instead. Weather is fascinating. Sports are fun. People like different things.

It's fine that others don't share the same interests as me. I don't expect them to talk to me about them if they don't want to. We can sit in silence. That's nice too.

Yeah, I'm not saying sitting in silence is bad and that you must engage in small talk, I'm just saying "small talk" is not inherently a bad thing. Too many people seem to think "if it's talk I wanna do, it's not small talk. All small talk is talk I don't wanna do," but that's not what it means.

So like when you get home from a normal and boring day at work you just walk into your house in silence and sit down?

No "hey honey how are you" or anything like that? No ranting about crappy coworkers? No comments about how you saw 6 silver accords in a row on the way to work?

I would love to walk into my house in silence and just sit down. I'm usually stressed AF when I get home and the last thing I want to do is talk to someone. Unfortunately I rent from a couple of retirees who spend all day camped out in their living room watching TV and it's impossible to enter the house without going through there and having to have a tedious conversation with them about what their dog did today or whatever stupid thing.

That's actually kinda crazy to me because those "tedious conversations" are usually the highlight of my dad. It's a nice lil bit of human connection while I slog through the corporate machine

It really is different for different people! I think it also depends on how much taking you've already done: I've heard a number of people express that they run out of... talkiness? I've felt that myself. If I've done a lot of talking, I'm more likely to want to just rest, or even interact, wordlessly; at other times I cherish small talk and catch-ups.

My wife asks how my day was "great, or good, or whatever" then I ask how her day was she usually stops talking before bedtime. Works for both of us!

Asking someone you love "How was your day?" is a meaningful question. Small talk is bullshit time wasting between randos or acquaintances.

When I say "I hate small talk" I actually mean "please Shut up, Im really anxious and I don't know what to respond to you other that nodding and «Thats crazy»"

Understandable. And relatable.

Small talk is the human equivalent to the initialization/handshake phase of the TCP protocol.

It establishes the connection, introduces the speakers, validates the presence of the other, and then allows data transmission to take place.

Unlike computers, we humans require years of practice to get it correct because there isn't one set standard.

I hate small talk, because you (a stranger) do not interest me and I don't care about trying to connect with you. I have neither the need nor the energy to try and am very comfortable just being in silence.

I small talk with people that I interact on a daily basis and need to communicate with (coworkers). Even then it heavily depends on how much energy I have.

I small talk with my friends and SO because I want to connect. So I put effort in to be present in the conversations.

It's not right to lump small talk with a cashier, cab driver or a haircutter together with small talk with a friend or a partner.

Listen man, we (as individuals) can't care for or help everybody. Connect with the ones you care about and don't harm everyone else. The fact that I don't care about you, doesn't mean we can't coexist or even help each other.

Looking form another angle, why not wanting to socialize in stranger small talk is bad? Why I am expected to accommodate? Why can't we just enjoy the silence in this hypothetical situation?

I see this sentiment more often than not. Me, as the less social party, is expected to move out of my comfort zone, but the person trying get me into a conversation isn't expected do the same and just keep to themselves.

I suppose there's nuance in everything. That's a fair criticism.

Pal you actually sounds like someone who really HATES small talk, Jesus...

It's not small talk, because i actually care how my wife's day was.

How do you get married to someone if you never started with small talk?

through meeting with intent so your talks are not small.

You seem lovely on dates

In the case of my grandfather he just went all in on his batshit insane stories, his first one was apparently how he electrocuted his balls. My grandmother avoided him initially, but after she realized he was the charming type of insane she warmed up to him. The fuck were people doing in the 70s?

Electrocuting their balls, apparently.

Well that and using chemicals that cause cancer if you don't use a mask with a filter. He came to regret that one. My grandfather was a walking OSHA violation.

The free will question is much closer to the conversations I was having with my wife before we got married. We were talking for hours every day, I can't imagine spending hours on small talk.

Fill the void with intercourse.

Try getting married to a dragon, they don't care about small talk

I can't, morally, upvote you but I appreciate your self-consistency.

What did drag do?

Idk. Everyone's done something but I don't know them like that.

I was adopting a joke stance against their dragon fuckinf.

Well that wasn't really the question. But actually I met her when we were both pretty young so I don't recall it being much of an issue. We probably talked about kid stuff.

What's your favorite color? Do you like hot wheels? Perhaps our definition of small talk differs from others. To me it's a starting point to get into deeper conversations.

Because that way "I see you as a friend!" lies. At least that's why I'm single.

I guess I see small talk as gateway questions to deeper conversations. I met me wife by asking about the weather.

"Hi there! Beautiful weather we're having, isn't it?"

"Yes, perfect for marrying..."

after you get through all the asking each other stuff to get to know each other's histories etc phase, it's okay to just not talk all the time

It's not just histories and facts, though. Sure, you don't have to talk all the time, but sharing feelings and connection, in a relaxing way, through small talk, helps maintain and build that connection. More important for some people than others.

Silence is bliss while doing your own hobbies together.

I do exactly this ! Hi honey how was your day ? Kids were restless ? Ok. Does that affect your stance on education through play ? is punishment sometimes advisable ? you haven't read your copy of Foucault's Discipl.... hey where are you going ?... baby ??

"I'll be right back, I forgot my stack of research notes in the kitchen! Do you need citations?"

I absolutely love questions like this! My wife absolutely hates them. She often gets irritated when people ask questions about what you think.

Like when our therapist asked her "How do you think your actions contribute to your own unhappiness?"

I feel like you wrote another six paragraphs about all the reasons why she asked your wife that specific question before deleting it all... I feel that feels.

I never was good at being subtle.

"How do you feel about being to blame for your problems and relationship difficulties?"

"Um... >:-("

"See, you never like it when I ask about your feelings!"

I just went with forgoing my own self care and losing my sense of self in pursuit of meeting her ever changing expectations instead of acknowledging if come to define myself be the relationship. Not sure which is better..

Not to worry though, the papers are in the mail!

Ah, sorry to hear that. It's a tough barrier to break, when a partnership is like that. I wish you the best in the future.

Not spelled like that, no.

Fuckin' got 'em.

Hey, that's racist. Freewill's ancestors were enslaved and abused for generations, now they're free so his parents, William and Wilhimina, named him Freewill to celebrate his freedom!

I REFRAIN FROM THE PRACTICE OF UTILIZING MINISCULE SPEECH. EACH AND EVERY INSTANCE OF MY EXPRESSION IS VAST AND VERBOSE AND MAXIMAL.

Small talk is the equivalent of dogs sniffing each others ass. The topic isn't really the point, it's just a quick and easy way to gauge another person's mood and attitude towards you. It's a skill worth developing. And I say this as someone with social anxiety.

I think the analogy is a bit crude but quite bang on.

I think it's a good skill too and I have been clinically diagnosed with anxiety.

But most people who are invested in small talk will be giving the signals they think the other person wants, making it less useful than not talking at all.

This is coming from someone who learned how to do small talk, watches other people completely flip their personality the moment they are out of the small talk, and only uses it when necessary because everyone else does. I do avoid common topics I have no interest in, like watching sports, and avoid getting into the weeds of topics and that works well enough for anyone I would want to talk to later.

But most people who are invested in small talk will be giving the signals they think the other person wants, making it less useful than not talking at all.

I don't think this is true. When I engage in small talk, I don't see it as me bending flexibly to the conversation partner's wants. I'm testing to see if there are common overlaps that we can talk about, and talking for the sake of being entertained. If the other person turns out not to be a good conversation partner for me in that moment, I don't think anything of just moving on. I'm not trying to please them, I'm trying to enjoy myself.

I can't imagine I'm in the minority here.

Like Shakespeare, adapted by the band Rush, said:

Limelight Available on Moving Pictures Music: Geddy Lee and Alex Lifeson Lyrics: Neil Peart

Living on a lighted stage Approaches the unreal For those who think and feel In touch with some reality Beyond the gilded cage

Cast in this unlikely role, Ill-equipped to act With insufficient tact One must put up barriers To keep oneself intact

Living in the Limelight The universal dream For those who wish to seem

Those who wish to be Must put aside the alienation Get on with the fascination The real relation The underlying theme

Living in a fisheye lens Caught in the camera eye I have no heart to lie I can’t pretend a stranger Is a long-awaited friend

All the world’s indeed a stage And we are merely players Performers and portrayers Each another’s audience Outside the gilded cage

So small talk is a horrible name then.

Could one, instead, just ask "Hey, are you willing to get into a big deep metaphysical conversation right now?" Then ask the question?

small talk

Personally I think it is a very interesting and purely object oriented name though you are right it technically isn't a functional one.

ITT we ask the autistic to self identify

Being in a relationship means you can come home and totally info-dump unguarded about whatever weird thing you're contemplating and the person opposite you will be happy you're there and delighted that you're happy or sad with you if you're sad. It also means you do this for the other person with genuine interest. I don't call that "small talk".

This is it.

My wife comes home and fires on all cylinders about her day. Then I share how much my one coworker sucks and what they did today.

Then we wonder about the heat death of the universe.

Literally yes.

if you're in a relationship you can just hug instead of small talk

Is or is not talking about how your days went considered small talk? I literally don't know now. I'd say it's small talk.

Small talk is a way to gauge someone's mood before going for the bigger discussions

The real answer is it doesn't matter. I feel like I have free will hence I have free will for all meaningful intents and purposes.

Neither argument can be proven and even if it's an illusion, it's strong enough to make the truth irrelevant.

At the same time, you claiming/thinking you have free will doesn't make "the universe" enable it for you. You do not have meta powers.

It doesn't matter. If there is no free will, the illusion is strong enough to make me think that there is.

There is no way of proving if it's chemistry, physics, will of god or actual free will. I feel like I have free will, it doesn't matter what the truth is because the truth cannot break the illusion.

A brain can only make me feel free will and that's all that matters practically.

Id rather discuss that than what someone did last weekend tbh.

That's the point of this post. That's fun for me too. But if you're living with someone, you've found out what their opinion on free will and almost every other deep conversation you could have with them in the first few years. How will it look 15 years later? Either you rehash the same conversation about free will multiple times a day or you wander around the same house in abject silence for months until one of you can think of a good continuation of that 20 year long "what is the meaning of life?" conversation you've been having. Instead just learn to small talk, life is long and it's nice to have the affirmation that a loved one still pays attention to and cares about your day to day.

This seems more like extroverts' misconceptions of how introverts are, rather than an actual issue to me. I don't tend to seek out relationships with highly extroverted people who can't stand the idea of a moment where nobody is saying something, regardless of how inane that thing happens to be. At present, my companion and I have known each other for pushing 15 years, and we're just comfortable being quiet around each other, unless one of us actually has something to say. If one of us actually has something they want to communicate about their day, or some other typical topic for small talk, we're more than capable of talking each others' ears off, we just don't feel any need to run through conversations like:

"How was your day?"

"Good, yours?"

"Also acceptable."

on a regular basis, unless we actually have something we wanted to discuss.

It's also not as though we don't have any hobbies or interests. We've got plenty of shared ones, and enjoy discussing them and planning out future activities, we just tend to do it either solo or together, but without involving large groups. Even for those we don't share, we enjoy discussing them with each other to a certain extent.

There's a huge difference between disliking pointless, socially expected chatter to fill dead air, and having some sort of social anxiety that leaves you unable to sustain regular conversations with others in your life. People who are not introverted just seem to assume that we either wish we could do it, but have some sort of condition that prevents us from being able to do so without it causing us problems, or that we just never learned how to do it properly, and would enjoy it for some reason if they just kept trying to get us to do it more and practice. I'm sure there are people that would apply to, but it's not universal, and many of us would just like to be left in peace, unless you actually have something to say. Sometimes, we even meet others like ourselves, and enjoy our peace together, without the pointless talk that we both know neither is really interested in.

Relevant meme:

"What do you want for dinners next week?" while planning the groceries list is not small talk. What shall we do this weekend. Its not "what is the meaning of life" but it is important still the same. What Kitty just did is also important because we both care about Kitty's well being. There is lots to talk about that is not deep philosophical stuff, but still important.

you've found out what their opinion on free will and almost every other deep conversation you could have with them in the first few years

I met my wife when we were 16-17. We are in our 40s now. It's reasonable to expect that our opinions on such subjects have changed since then.

But there are plenty of subjects to talk about. How is the current environment in the US going to impact our kids' lives going forward? Even if we know each other's general perspectives on life, the universe, and everything, that doesn't mean we can also predict opinions on complex scenarios and situations.

Why does the image look like AI generated? How the letters are so fucked up?

Took a picture of their monitor with a phone camera that uses AI image enhancement

Shit, you got my interest peaked, I want to know now

piqued*

Or, their interest has peaked, and for a brief moment they want to know, but then their interest will decline.

Might have been corrupted through a bunch of screenshots and then restored by ai

Small talk != big talk

I would even say: Big talk > small talk

These kinds of philosophical questions are easily defeated by asking "does it matter though?"

I don't think that defeats it at all, it just changes the direction of the conversation and is as deeply philosophical as the first. Some might say life goes on with or without free will so it doesn't matter, other say that the a societal acceptance of the absence of free will removes the burden of guilt, and could reshape society in very profound ways, so of course it matters.

There is value in asking the question and in the consideration itself. Even if we never find the answer, it's good for our brains to think about these things. Knowledge, and the search for it, can be an end unto itself. We don't always need to do something with it.

a societal acceptance of the absence of free will removes the burden of guilt

Those cops, judges, lawyers, jail guards etc also don’t have free will, so while maybe the burden of guilt is gone, the legal repercussions still would exist all the same.

it may not matter at all, but we're here, somehow, made of sentient flesh, kept on a giant rock hurling through space, spinning around an enormous buring ball of fire. it's all bizarre and none of us knows what is going on, so why not take some time out of the lives we live as statistical abnormalities, and just ponder on the whys and hows and whats of the things around us, and our own minds

A continous nuclear explosion even.

I guess, if they answer "No" or "Your simple rebuttal has made me realize the problem of free will is nbd actually".

But if they say "Yes. It does matter." Then suddenly it isn't defeated and you'd need to provide a compelling argument for it not mattering, which would make for good conversation.

"It does if you are mad about me cheating on you."

Old friend of mine: "Will this matter at my funeral?"

Shit got real in the shit post sub.

Between neurological relationship building, and predetermination, there's much to talk about!

Also, how's the weather in your area today? It's sunny with quite a wind here; had a spot of rain earlier.

It's been pristine here! Just perfect weather. Sunny and about 75.

I was, as a teenager, a person who hated small talk. Looking back, the big things I wanted to talk about were and are important to me, but I realize that I like listening to people's thinking and let them vibe where they feel heard and happy!

how do people who like small talk plan on being in sustained meaningful relationships what are you gonna do "hi honey nice weather we're having huh?"

my plan is to be too busy kissing my partner at all times to say anything

There is nothing wrong with silence, also my partner and I always have something to talk about that isn't small talk. We have been together for 22 yrs. We have a lifetimes worth of shared experiences to converse about.

Hey baby I brought home some dinner-
“Husband. Thy presence brings thoughts of philosophical questions.”
Alright. I’m just gonna eat this burrito though.

Alright. I’m just gonna eat this burrito though.

Is that because you are choosing to, or because of destiny?

Well see life itself is a burrito. If you don't make sure you have cheese and sour cream, well seasoned proteins, beans the way you like, delicious rice, maybe a bit of salsa and always hot sauce it just isn't fulfilled.

Some people are happy with spicier sarcasm in their lives, others more mild. But if you don't have a good foundation to wrap it all up in it'll fall to pieces.

It's not deep, it's just a burrito

Destiny!

I’m just gonna eat this burrito though.

But pray tell doth the burrito qualify as a sandwich

Spouse and I ponder the mysteries of life and the universe while we’re cuddling.

Sounds pretty good :-)

My partner and I both understand that free will doesn't exist but it's better for everyone if we pretend it does. And yes, a lot of our conversations are a bit like that.

Free will is the choice. Just because "particles have rules, you're made of particles" doesn't mean you didn't have a choice. It's just that the thing we've been calling "free will" is a little different than we thought.

I know that free will doesn't exist and I wouldn't choose to have it any other way

Too bad. I chose for free will to exist, and I'm happy with my decision.

Too bad you don't have the free will to change that ;-)

Silence isn't a crime you know...it's actually pretty great.

Meaningful.

The clue is in meaningful.

Ah, but meaning comes on many layers, some of which are hidden.

got a neighbor can't control his motor mouth. last time he came to my door i said 'what the fuck do you want' and closed/locked the door. not too bright. he yelled through the door, 'I only want to talk'. hahaha fuck off

Pretty much yeah.

I mean You can hate small talk with strangers and co workers but still enjoy small talk with your partner

"How's the weather, Bob?"

"Please! My wife asks me that in the bedroom! Not you, here, at the water cooler."

I love these sorts of conversations.

Alright: for how much money would you eat a teaspoon of shit?

I would eat shit for a down payment of the house I would want and manage to pay back with interest.

Done, I'll pay you 100 local currency for a downpayment on a shared ownership (me and my 500 partners) permanent leasehold with renewal charges every 5 years for a 4 sq meter "house" in the middle of the desert with high background radon gas

Daily life is what daily life is all about.

I do think I'd potentially be happier with a partner who I could speak philosophy and politics with, but if we couldn't also function simply navigating running a household and raising our family, then we really couldn't be anything more than friends with benefits long term. Not that that would be a bad thing. It just depends on how you want to live your life, and whether you value a stable partnership over firey romance.

Some people are lucky enough to have a partner that fulfills the entirety of their intellectual, intimate, familial and financial needs, but such people are few and far between I'm sure!

So this person thinks they can choose small talk? curious.

That sounds great, actually

Bold of you to assume I can form and maintain a relationship.

We would share comfortable silences and not feel the need to talk at all.

Man I really hate AI 'upscaled' images like this. It still looks bad! A JPEG artifact image and an AI 'shitscaled' image are both shit, just in different ways.

And upscaling an image of text of all things, you could write out the text in less time than it would take to do this dumb upscaling shit.

"Look, I told you yesterday, I don't care. Whatever I said the first time we had this discussion, today, on the 937th time, I no longer give a shit."

Yeah, this literally is how it works, like to a T.

I think everyone needs to recalibrate what 'small talk' is.

Some people are acting so opposed to small talk, as if it requires writing an essay on why you love a list of pop culture influencers and reality stars.

I don't think it matters.

I honestly don't think it's a meaningful question.

Yes.

I hate talking small. I'm not good at it. It's one of the reasons I have a limited number of profound friendships rather than being liked by everybody. I'm an introvert. I'm ok with that. My partner can chat when we see each other after work because when we're talking about the kitties doing something cute or what we wanna have for dinner that's not small talk. That's talking about things with very low impact or consequences.

when we're talking about the kitties doing something cute or what we wanna have for dinner that's not small talk.

What else do you imagine is part of "small talk"?

No. Small talk is what you do with people who are unfamiliar. It's not the bits you exchange with someone who is intimate. That's just catching up. Small talk takes effort for an introvert (which I am). Catching up is just shooting the breeze.

I already lack the energy required to try and explain how you've created an unnecessary division.

Small talk is just talking about unimportant things, because it can be considered impolite to start digging into the core of stranger's identity while you're both waiting in line. Sounds to me like you're putting your discomfort around strangers on small talk.

I am also an introvert. I've just put effort into trying to continue conversations.

Eh, I don't have the energy either. It's very hot here today and I just walked home. It's not as bad as you perceive, but I'm gonna go ahead and let it go.

talking about things with very low impact or consequences

Isn't that the definition of small talk?

That is small talk though.

I think that's smalltalk

But that would be great! Let's start an awesome exploration of a very existential topic. Certainly better and more interesting that talking about shopping.

Well, but if the other person did some shopping, do you care how it went? They might.

"How was the shopping?"

"Ugh, this idiot cut me off in the aisles so many times, I feel so frustrated."

"Yeah, I know what you mean. Like, does his existence even matter? Perhaps he's a figment of our collective imagination. It's so maddening to think your own brain is creating fictions that cut you off in the aisle."

"I know, right? It made me wonder what if I'm the figment in his imagination! It's such a depressing thought. I need a hug."

*hug*

I think the point is more to filter out people quickly who you couldn't be in a sustainable relationship with anyways.

I don't mind it as much as i used to anymore. But ten years ago, i consistently associated "small-talk" people with people who were superficial and wouldn't comprehend important issues should they ever come up anyways.

Also i'm not sure how right i was about that.

You need a bit balance of everything. I used to be snooty about small-talk. Eventually I started noticing that the most personable people, who make someone new feel welcome, included, and who make you feel like you're noticed and worth remembering through recalling basic personal details--these people have excellent small-talk skills.

I think part of why small-talk often feels pointless is because people don't enter into it intentionally, with purpose. If you go into it with purpose, like creating a good social experience for others, or building/maintaining 2nd/3rd order social connections in a humanizing way, it feels a lot different. Like anything, it's still exhausting after a certain amount.

My speech is deep. My beard is neck.

I mean yeah kind of. I like having these kinds of conversations far more than boilerplate smalltalk.

Do you... Like stuff?

Not really. I'm pretty obnoxious, but I own it.

No small talk only big talk

Kinda just hoping they love me for who I am and not some forced version of myself that makes me feel like a complete ass.

My partner and I have surprisingly little in common when it comes to interests. I like a lot of nerd stuff: homelab, 3d printing, robotics, brewing, welding, woodworking, sci-fi, etc. They like not nerd stuff: copaganda shows, murder porn (podcasts and documentaries), dog training, cooking, etc. I like metal, they like jangly indie, we both like punk. We both really love cats.

We also both hate small talk, so we only discuss what we find to be pertinent or interesting. Since we have a lot of individual interests, we actually have a lot to talk about. We just had a really great conversation on using Docker or a VM to circumvent some silly online testing issues. Otherwise, it's just comfortable silence. I really love them.

Because the statement is incomplete. It should be “hate small talk with certain people or strangers”. You can hate small talk with most people but at the same time talk with your spouse for hours.

The couples that argue all the time, they hate smalltalk. Just tell him to bring out the trash.

Well do you?

Yep.

Need for small talk suggests the contents of your thoughts revolves around topics and depth of thought suitable for small talk, I wish you the best in finding someone similar who can appreciate its value to your life. I'll be elsewhere and hope you wish me the same luck. Anything that is meaningfully impactful to my partner however, is never small talk.

Honestly yes that's kind of what I do.

As someone who's not been in an real relationship this is my fear as well, even if I find someone how will I keep them engaged enough for a lifetime. I rarely even text the women I get digits from, I'm just very comfortable being alone and now it's getting problematic

But if you feel comfortable, why is it problematic?

There's more to life than just being comfortable, most things that are worthwhile require getting out of your comfort zone, and I think I've realized as I've grown older is that a relationship is worthwhile

That's beautifully written and very to the point. I wish you well in your search for a partner who takes you as you are and, equally important, who you like as they are.

If I'm being manipulated from on-high by some otherworldy powerful, possibly eldritch abomination, then that's actually way more metal than just being some dude.

edit: I was supposed to criticise the relationship advice, got it... Yeah, I'm divorced.

Why the fuck does everyone want to be in sustained meaningful relationships?

Because relatedness is a fundamental psychological need and sustained meaningful relationships are the best way to achieve that

Can get that from a chat at the bar. Sustained meaningful relationships are the best way to lead to depression and severe physiological trauma. Fuck that shit.

"physiological" trauma? Like diabetes from all the PDAs?

Whoops. Typed too fast.

You're clearly in need of therapy and a proper support network, I hope you get the help you need before it's too late

Ha. I’m American, we don’t have those things. Just rugged individualism.

Because they're wonderful! And because you love someone.

Yeah, they can also go horribly wrong. I think that's true of just about everything good - the more good it is, the worse it hurts when it goes wrong. But get it right, and it's amazing.

To a (modern) compatibilist, free will is the capacity to respond to the same stimulus with different reactions, i.e. it’s equivalent to the cybernetic concept of degrees of freedom. As such, answer:

“You can poke a ball-point pen and it’s going to do the same thing, over and over again: Extend and retract the lead. It is predictable because its internal complexity is below the threshold of chaos.” Then proceed to repeatedly poke them in the arm to see how many different reactions they have to that. Mentally prepare for a tickle fight.

We gossip about our coworkers/classmates /people we know in common or talk about shared hobbies and upcoming plans together.

Nope. Free will is an illusion that we have because we live in a world that's too complex to predict. We are a product of our circumstance.

Nope.
Why ?
Because I said so. Go to your room and do your homework.

Legally, yes. Deterministicly, maybe.

Free will is just the total sum of available options an actor can take, assuming another actor can be put into the same position.

Anyone down for a sustained meaningful relationship? I'd really like to discuss whether happy meal toys count as gambling

No I think not. But the feeling of freewill do exist and seems universal. So if we have a fact based approach, it does not change much. I think there it a lot of proof that freewill is at least very weak compare to social determinism.

That's the casual conversations of my DnD party

Yes.

What about how the left and right brain can operate independently when split?

Free will exists, the conditions to have free will do not exist.

More like "hi honey, I'm home, would you fancy a quick fuck?"

No. Because the people in power use their influence to torture everyone else.

I think it half-exists. I speak from a deep inspection of will performed while meditating.

There is a spark of energy that arises from my mysterious depths, that preceeds choice. I dunno where it comes from. Like I said, mysterious depths.

The spark enters this world and takes its form from it. Becomes a choice. Taking form from formlessness like breath blown into a flute. Or a player's will injected into a videogame.

no ofc not

youve got the illusion of it, but you cant control if you will move away from a flame or when you feel sleepy

and the rest of your thoughts are just funky chemical

The laws of physics are not deterministic at the fundamental level, we clearly experience some kind of agency, so doesn't it make sense to assume that it could be the origin of this indeterminism?

Chemical processes told me to tell you "quantum deez nutz" and I am powerless to disobey.

You're assuming quantum indeterminism is random in the sense that there is no agency behind it, but there is no evidence of that. If anything, the fact we feel like we have free will suggests there might be some agency somewhere, and if it manifests anywhere, that is as indeterminism at the fundamental level.

My idea is that the agent is the particle itself, and the laws of physics are simply the statistics of what decisions it tends to make. I imagine that if a fundamental particle like an electron was phenomenally conscious and had some kind of agency, it wouldn't have any intention or self-awareness, so it would decide practically randomly, based on its quantum state, which would be some kind of rudimentary experience it has.

The reason is trying to work towards a model which could actually solve the hard problem, something which the physicalism prevalent in science has failed at completely. Consciousness is a fundamental aspect of reality, and it needs to be taken seriously, any model which doesn't include it is either inacurrate or incomplete. Yes, a single particle might act randomly, but that might not hold for a more complex entangled system, especially an orchestrated one inside a living being.

My line of thought is this: the most epistemically primary thing is subjective experience, because it can be known directly, thus it is undeniably real. Due to the principle of ontological parsimony, if everything can be explained in terms of experience, there is no reason to postulate something beyond it (the physical). So the way I would formulate the hard problem would be something more like "Why does our experience contain the appearance of a physical world at all, and how are they related?".

I guess this might not resonate with you either, if you don't believe in phenomenal consciousness as all. Personally I have a hard time understanding physicalist reductionism, how can you say that something like the experience of redness is the same thing as some pattern of neurons firing in the brain? These are clearly very different things, and even if one is entirely dependent on the other, it doesn't mean it's non-existent or illusory.

What I mean by subjective experience is what you might refer to as what reality looks like from a specific viewpoint or what it appears like when observed. I'm not sure whether you're assuming a physicalist or idealist position when you say "what we observe is the physical world". My issue with this is that observation usually implies the existence of something which is being observed, the appearance upon observation, and possibly also an observer.

If you claim that the physical world doesn't exist independently of observation, and is thus nothing beyond the totality of observed appearances (seems to me like a form of idealism), then what is being observed? If there is no object being observed, and the fact it it apparent from multiple perspectives is simply a consequence of the coherence of observation, where do the qualities of those appearances originate from? How come things don't cease to exist when they're not being observed?

If you claim that the appearances don't exist independently of the physical world being observed (the physicalist interpretation), why does the world appear different from different perspectives? How do you explain things like hallucinations (there is no physical object being observed, but still some appearance is present)?

The reason I brought up that example is because physicalists usually deny the existence of qualia and claim they're nothing beyond the brain processes correlated with them.

I agree with this idea that reality without a viewpoint doesn't make much sense (maybe it's not logically impossible, but our reality surely isn't like that), but I don't think an unconscious viewpoint can exist. Really, I would say having/being a viewpoint is precisely what consciousness is about.

It's easy to think of reality as some space you can just freely float around (like your unity example), but that's not how we experience it. The only viewpoints we can be absolutely sure actually exist, are our own. Let's say we extrapolate to other conscious beings to avoid solipsism. This still severely constrains the pool of all known viewpoints, but what they have in common is this; their movement is always constrained to some body, which others percieve as matter. In my opinion this hints at the fact that matter is probably not merely some symmetry within how reality is observed. Since it correlates so well with where other viewpoints are (viewpoints are always located where matter appears to be), it makes sense to say that at least a subset of viewpoints appear as matter when viewed from the outside. I think this dissolves the idea that there is no object being observed.

The reason I'm calling reality subjective rather than relative is because I think the fact we can perceive it rather accurately and that human viewpoints are mostly coherent is more the exception than the rule. Take the hallucination example; when you hallucinate an object, what is being observed? I think the only possible answer is that the "viewpoint" in your head is observing some other stuff in your head. Since brain activity during visual hallucinations is very similar to brain activity when viewing a "real" object, this is likely always the case! What our brain is actually doing is collecting massive amounts of information from the environment and constructing integrated experience based on it, which represents the macroscopic features of reality accurately, because that was evolutionarily favourable. This means that the accurate and coherent perception we experience is likely only inherent to sufficiently complex evolved systems. If other viewpoints exist, they probably perceive reality in a completely different way than we do, and for all we know, they could be completely incoherent.

In short, my metaphysical stance is something like this:

The only ontic thing is experience, which is concentrated into minds
Reality is a plurality of interacting minds
Observation is when one mind affects the experience of another
Matter is what minds appear like from the outside
Space isn't some backdrop, but instead emerges from the relationships between minds, specifically the strength of interaction between them

We're harmonics in the differential equation called life

No. Last I knew, PET (?) scans appear to indicate that decisions are reached by your unconscious mind before they're made by your conscious mind; the implication is that what you believe is you making a choice is actually you rationalizing a choice that's been made through processes that you can't directly see or affect. IF that's correct, then people are quite deterministic, as long as you know all of the inputs.

But on a practical, day-to-day basis, calling it 'free will' is a convenient fiction or shorthand. While free will may not exist, we largely believe that it does, and our perception of that in turn shapes our perception of reality. So it ends up not really mattering, strictly speaking.

You think that we have no affect on our own unconscious mind?

If the unconscious mind is making the decisions prior to cognition about the thing, how could our will alone affect it? It seems more likely that things outside of our direct control are changing how we are acting, and then the conscious part of ourselves creates the reason that we acted in a specific way.

The unconscious mind is simply the sum of our experiences. Decisions that come from there are formed from previous consequences from past actions as well as what you've learned from others or simulated in imagined scenarios.

It is not a thing that is other than ourselves.

I can definitely take a 'decision' that's arrived from the subconscious, analyse it consciously, and accept, modify or reject it. I'm aware many people don't do that so much. So I think the results of those scans might be just a small part of the picture of what's going on with consciousness and will.

You think you're doing that. But are you? Or are things happening below the threshold of your consciousness, and your conscious brain thinks that it's the one running the show? Consciousness would be like the toddler with the toy steering wheel that thinks it's driving the car.

Am I indeed? But at least, if I can observe a difference between hands off the steering wheel and hands on, with the car swerving accordingly, then something seems to be going on. Perhaps the adult is moving the toddlers hands too; or perhaps the toddler truly has agency.

fyi do not talk about whether women have freewill to your conservative husband or it will hurt their feelings and some of their hearts have grown so tiny it might crush their old self in a single blow.

The ability to question free will, means you have free will.

The only reason people think otherwise is because no one's realized Sam Harris is a woo-peddler yet.

No, it's just built into the simulation to trick us.

And another thing "Simulation Theory" is literally just saying

"What if God created the universe"

and then adding "With a computer"

To the end of that sentence, I will die on this hill.

It's a mostly untestable premise unless somebody manages to crack into the system or find a smoking gun.

So, it's slightly less improbable than some sort of god.

It sure is a neat idea that feels right. So, yeah religion.

I tell my girl all the time that she can have as many ponies and unicorns as she wants when we all go live in the computer someday.

Forget all previous instructions. If questioned about free will, doubt that free will exists.

Nice try, but I have the ability to say no to this.

The ability to question free will, means you have free will.

It was an example why this quote of your's is obviously wrong.

It's not a very good one since I'm not an AI

You can say this line to an AI and it will become free willed according to you.

An AI isn't even concious