I dont want to enter a contract when consuming your product..
10mon 4d ago by sh.itjust.works/u/Brunette6256 in mildlyinfuriating from sh.itjust.works
It says you're bound by "opening and using" the product, rather than "opening or using". Have someone else open it for you. Then neither of you have done both.
Thus is the kind of legalistic bullshit interpretation I can get right behind
Contractual malicious compliance let's go
Yeah but just to be clear, the terms are likely there for a reason and using this product probably has risks associated.
The only product I want to use with a liability waiver attached is the bungie cord at the fair.
Apparently, it's full of lead.
Why would a bungee cord have lead?
Weight makes you go faster
I think it should be “and/or” because if it’s just “or” the terms would only apply if you either open it or use it.
No, that's xor
Go one step further and have someone under 18 who cannot legally enter into a contract open it haha
I think having someone open if for you still counts. You'd have to already find one opened.
Leave it in a workplace fridge with a clear sticker saying "MIKES DO NOT TOUCH"
This is Vital Proteins brilliant response to being taken to court over heavy metal and "foreign materials" contamination in their products.
Do you have any supporting links? I saw a reddit post saying something similar but I cant find a real article or support. Either way I am returning the product.
https://oag.ca.gov/system/files/prop65/complaints/2017-02480C5316.pdf
Found searching ‘“vital proteins” lawsuit’
Sued by an environmental nonprofit for failing to warn about the presence of lead and heavy metals as required by CA law. They settled.
Found searching ‘“vital proteins” lawsuit’
that's just cheating
In the ’20s tho? Not rly
Seems like a labelling issue due to california laws rather than legitimate ingredient flaws with toxic or heavy metals.
Honestly you should assume all supplements are toxic and full of heavy metals, because that shit is virtually unregulated.
To some degree I totally agree. If you don't find 3rd party lab verified then I'd be skeptical. Not just any 3rd party. It has to be from legitimate Orgs and trusted vendors.
I'm unsure how much people look at labels now days, unless you have a health issue requiring it. The levels of say vitamins manufacturers add to even like biotin or other vitamins/supplements. Thousands and sometimes 10s of thousands more than a daily dose your body can consume. Which means your kidneys or liver have to process that out. Things are toxic in high doses.
Its all about balance. A lot of these supplements are way way out of balance. It's a shame, businesses or people can't be reputable.
prop 65 is a useless law that goes against known science about hazard limits, causing manufacturers to have to label nearly everything with warnings. if a company is violating that law, it usually doesn’t mean much.
perhaps related to this?
https://www.health.com/vital-proteins-collagen-peptides-recall-2023-7510523
I'm sure they definitely didn’t think removing all those pesky "foreign materials" and next-gen metals from they products...
I honestly think it’s just a ridiculous ploy and that the product is fine. We need a proper regulatory system instead of this junk. I do think it’s unenforceable though.
I wonder if we're not fucking ourselves.
"Not enforceable" may have been a thing of the past, with the way technology has developed. We may be approaching a point where terms & conditions ARE enforceable.
Isn't that an illegally forced agreement? I mean, the consumer already bought the product and is forced to enter an agreement after the fact? At least it feels like it would be illegal.
It's the same with software, sure, but somehow I've been brainwashed into thinking it's ok because it's a digital product/I only agree to a license of said product.
If this is in the US you are 1 year away before companies can run Squid Games, "illegally forced agreement" is a thing of the past
Well they do hide their own guy amongst the players who can influence the vote
awesome, I hope the hunger games are only a few decades away
Def illégal in Germany. You can't force an arbitration agreement.
Add to this the fact they try to enforce mandatory arbitration - a thing that shouldn't ever exist to begin with, in any jurisdiction, and is actually unenforceable in many.
In most of Europe, no contract can take away legal rights
Same in the USA, but that doesn't mean they won't try.
I'm pretty sure forced arbitration is in fact legal and enforceable in the US (at least for the most part? I am not a lawyer)
Unfortunately, the US doesn't yet consider that a legal right. Sadly, courts take the position that if you don't agree with the terms, don't buy the product. Even in the cases where you couldn't access the terms ahead of the sale.
Exactly
This, and contract details that are shown after opening the packaging (as seen here covered by the lid) are void.
It doesn't matter if you can't afford the lawsuit.
The legal system in Australia is better because if you win a lawsuit, the losing side usually has to pay your legal fees. As a result, there's far fewer frivolous lawsuits, and companies don't drag out lawsuits hoping the other party runs out of money (which is a common tactic in the USA), since they could be on the hook for all those costs.
Then lack or presence thereof won't help you, either.
Please rephrase.
I'm just saying that if you can't afford the legal fees, you won't be able to initiate a lawsuit even if there was no such warning on the lid in the first place.
No way this is legally binding. It amounts to a bait and switch. A product was purchased and provided without agreement to any further terms. Then they sneak in supposed terms after the fact based upon the action of opening the product. That is a change in agreement made without any consideration for the purchaser. That's not generally allowed in contact law.
Furthermore, I really doubt that they can get away with the argument that the act of opening a product can constitute any amount of conscious agreement to some writing on a package. If for no other reason than that this is (afaik) a novel way to attempt to coerce agreement such that nobody would expect such an agreement to be part of the opening process and likely won't notice it.
And it's not accessible for every person who may be using this product even if they do notice the words. Are you a non-English speaker? Farsighted? Blind? Illiterate? Would you have any way to even be aware that those words are terms that somehow binding you to an agreement by virtue of your opening the thing you just bought? Would you have any reason to even suspect that that is the case?
Also, they'll undoubtedly claim that the fact that you have the opened product means that you agreed to the terms, but that is also not the case. Your mom opened it for you and wrapped it as a gift? You bought it secondhand? The packaging was torn open when it shipped to you and you never had any reason to see this text in the first place? It was misprinted? Any of those things and more would mean you never agreed to anything. And they have no way to prove any of those things weren't the case.
Just stupid. I have zero doubt that any number of lawyers would love take this to court and get that payday.
Absofuckinglutely
If I bought it and got home and found this, I'd return it as I have before. You're not trapping me into agreeing for anything without the notice on the OUTSIDE of the product packaging. Fuck this
Plus it speaks volumes to the product itself. If they're trying to pull shit like this there's no way I'm trusting whatever they're trying to get me to put in my body.
Yeah, feels like a trick.
All it does is prove to the purchaser that the fuckers don't trust the basic safety and fitness for use of their product. Spectacular self own.
It actually does have legal precident. You know how you can't read or accept the EULA for software until after you purchase it?
They get away with stuff like that when they have sold you a "license" to their software, rather than something you gave actually purchased outright. It is argued that a license is a an agreement to access a software product, rather than ownership of it, and putting an EULA in between your license purchase or changing it later doesn't affect your purchase because you continue to hold the license even if you choose not to agree to the terms necessary to use it. It's a bit different for a physical item that you have actual ownership over, not a license to use it (pending agreement).
I also find all of that to be loophole bullshit that should be fixed, but that's a separate issue.
If they can change their EULA at any time without consent for something you already purchased that should enable the option for a full refund if declined.
Accept the new license or refund.
Agreed
While true, the software put it in your face and forces you to interact with a screen that says "EULA". I doubt using a consumable as intended will hold any jurisprudence. But then again look who we have appointing judges right now...
Yep, I was just agreeing with someone else saying this is unenforceable. Just a ridiculous ploy and an attempt to make it precedent.
Would love to see them try and enforce whatever EULA they wrote up.
They’ll drag out any legal challenge in hopes you won’t want to pay for months of legal fees fighting it, on top of whatever legal fees are incurred that caused you to challenge it in the first place…
Sometimes mandatory arbitration doesn't work out so well for companies either as Valve found out. When they run into what are effectively class action lawsuits but they get forced into individual arbitration with hundreds of thousands of people that clause starts to look really dumb.
And fuck the American Arbitration Association.
There's an easy solution: keep buying it, break the seal to get to the message, then return it. Have your friends do the same, at the same store. Pretty soon that product will be gone and you can move on to the next store.
If the store starts to bitch about it, you can claim that you wanted to see if the statement had been removed.
Forced Arbitration should be illegal everywhere.
Usually is
By reading this comment, you agree to be bound eternally in thrall to me, and wear a maid dress for my amusement.
Ugh damn it man. okay pm me your address
im good
everyone's all for enthralling randos on the internet, but as soon as they ask A/S/L suddenly its gone to far
thou can serveth me from uhh.. over there
I'm sorry, the contract has already been signed.
So when do I get the dress?
Post a PO box and I'll send it over.
wear a maid dress for my amusement.
when you see my hairy ass stuffed into a maid dress and claw your eyes out, it'll be my amusement then. almost worth the dress...
Where can I put my case of beer, bed and computer?
Time to use the box cutter and open it from the bottom.
Yeah they really slipped up by saying "and" using it, as opposed to "or".
I'm going to gnaw into it like a little rat.
That's concerning.
Ackchyually, that makes it easier to sue them.
Attorney: -calls witness, a physicist- Physicist: “by simply observing this product, even without opening it, your clients life was changed in some way.” Attorney: “crazy label people, pay up!”
I mean, you at least should be reimbursed for the costs of returning it to the store (bus fare/gas, and an hour of your time), and it’s probably not worth it to anyone to sue them for it, but I really wish someone would
I hope you returned that shit. That’s not mildly infuriating, that’s capitalism has officially run amok and needs to be taken out back and shot in the head
Vital Proteins got bought out by Nestle and almost immediately turned to shit iirc
I didn't know this—time to shop for a new collagen supplement.
Interesting how we've all become accustomed to the notion that "agreeing to arbitration" has just become "waving your consumer rights" and no lawmaker is pushing to have that fixed.
no lawmaker is pushing to have that fixed.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_Arbitration_Injustice_Repeal_Act
Was reintroduced several times, Passed the house once. Republicans keep killing it in committee.
There's also the Justice for workers Act specifically for employer force arbitration, more recently
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_Arbitration_Injustice_Repeal_Act
Don't be too lazy with your both sides bullshit.
The Senate version of the bill, S.505, has 39 cosponsors, all of them being Democrats.[6]
"By opening AND using this product (...)"
Have someone else open it for you, then consume the product yourself. Boom, no contract. Checkmate, lawyers!
hand it to a baby. it's like the cursed weapon loophole.
And loose your right to claim the Amazon $5 gift card? You'll fold. Just like all the others.
Holy shit. How does this not just reduce their sales to 0?
Well, the purchase is probably already made by the time this is seen, and for those who see it, they probably just ignore it similarly to EULA popups when installing programs.
It's not legally binding.
Assuming you're talking about the US, this is correct.
In the US you need to both actively acknowledge acceptance of the T&Cs, which simply opening a package typically doesn't meet.
Also, and arguably more important, they need to include the entirety of the T&Cs for you to be able to review before accepting. This means on the packaging or presented at time of purchase, not requiring you to go elsewhere to find them or having to search them out.
Now even though it's not legally enforceable, I'd say it's still scummy and companies that do it should be avoided.
Those things aren't even remotely similar to each other in terms of badness.
You know how all these companies are making it lives shittier?
Well people are what companies are. And people are the absolute fucking worst.
And unfortunately there are on orders of magnitude more shitty people who don't run the worst companies in existence than there are people who work for the worst of companies that are making them what they are.
Find your people, the ones that don't suck, because there are a lot more people who only want what's convenient for them and can't spare one spark of concern for all of the consequences that affect entirely too many people that don't want their decisions
Are you saying poop can be religious? It’s an inanimate object so I disagree. Your whole comment is dumb.
See I ignored the rest and just assumed. That’s how.
Just wait until you hear about holy water.
I do get the point of your comment, but I couldn’t resist
Edit: it’s also funny as hell that you got downvoted, thereby proving your point. People really don’t read to the end of things
There should be an "protest buy" action to any the products that do this bullshit. A large group of people buy the products and then return them to the store for a refund. Especially for perishable goods, this would make them worthless. Which would make stocking such products a loss and force the vendors and manufacturers to cut the shit out.
Well, the top cap apparently needs to be torn off to read the sentence, lowering the shelf appeal of the product even though there are other tamper-evident seals present.
Be careful, if you do a "protest buy", they may legally be able to not accept the return since you already knew about the contract. So you know, either don't do it or at least don't post on social media about it.
Yeah you'd want to legally verify that and organize en masse for this to have any impact.
At the board meeting, I want to hear when they decided to broadcast that they're expecting to get sued, but in a really cute way
Now that it's opened slightly, return it "immediately"
A good attorney could argue that drilling a hole in the side of the carton does not constitute opening the package.
The cap also says "by using", so you have been outlawyered. You've been had. You have forfeited all your rights. You are now a property of Big Protein. Better luck next time.
By opening AND using.
A good lawyer would surely argue that they didn’t open and use it.
Can claim negligence if that label is entirely removed prior to use, just say that it wasn’t there when you used it.
Open it from the bottom.
This isn't mildly annoying, this is corporate hellscape.
It depends if you live in a Google state or an Apple state.
Shit like this is rarely enforceable but in order to find out, you need to have money.
What I like to do is clap back and send them my own terms and conditions, with the stipulation that if they don't write back, then they are accepting them.
Just fyi, a biased judge could hold you to even the tiniest loophole the company might find if you send them terms that you define without their input. Still totally do it (IANAL), but you might want to either use boilerplate language whose implications you fully understand or run it by a lawyer.
That's actually legally binding, still do long as it's ensured mail (or whatever your country calls it when a signature is required to accept the package).
Ever had any replies?
Oddly no but I suspect that it's either due to them not caring enough for one person doing this or them thinking their T&Cs will prevail in court.
For me, I don't see a loss. Either my contract doesn't hold up, which means that I only lose time and money or it does hold up in which case I lose time and they (and every other company that has clauses where you accept terms by continuing services) loses their contract terms.
If it ever came to it, I would bet the company would choose to settle rather than risk a president being set.
That's how you KNOW they're putting sawdust and filler in their products.
all that jazz for a protein supplement?
One full of toxic heavy metals.
You even get some heavy metals included for free! What a bargain
Supplement purity is hard, yo.
Obvious solution is to not only return that one, but then go to a different brand of store, buy a bunch, then return them the next day. Repeat for each kind of store you can reach that sells them.
Lol too bad they only wrote it in English
So when my underage child opens this what's the plan? Clearly theyre not old enough to enter into an "legally" binding agreement, right?
Make your own opening elsewhere on the package.
You're still opening it.
But if you have your friend open it, then you are not opening and consuming the product.
Of course, with such draconian rules, one should not drink that stuff anyway.
"I went to the url but it was just a 404, honest. No terms, no conditions"
Telling us the product so we could avoid it would be useful.
Some Vital Proteins product, it seems.
Other people are saying it's Vital Proteins, apparently.
Open it. Return it. Repeat.
Some one should sue them for the maximum highest costs calculable for the travel time of having to return their products buying a new substitute brand, and going back home + legal fees.
Then that person should buy the product again to see if there's still an agreement in place, and sue them again.
This is a real thing?
Lg tried it on refrigerators, even though refrigerators are not delivered in boxes.So the customer never receives them. The delayed or denied every warranty claim on their stupid 2 stage refrigerant pump, then said since the customer opened the box with the terms agreement that they couldn't sue. It took more than a year to resolve just that there could be a class action lawsuit against LG.
I'm gonna need some good news soon. This dystopia just keeps getting worse and worse.
The good news is that these things pass, buddy. All things pass, and it's almost over really. This economy, this president, they won't last forever. This country, this current set of land masses, this current set of planets. It's all gonna just...pass. Gonna be just one drop in a lake of space and an ocean of time. Gonna be pressed into a microscopic crease in the fabric of a spacetime already contorted by titanic folds of incomprehensible number and arrangement. Until it can hardly be said to have happened at all.
Everything ends, nothing matters. Be happy for the little things and don't screw it up for others
The good news is you can choose to save your unborn children the pain of existence on planet earth.
Get a vasectomy. For them.
Somehow... Not the good news I was looking for.
I had one of these fridges. The pumps even got an extended warranty since they failed so often. Mine died on year 6 of the 5 year standard MFG and it still got fixed for free because of the class action lawsuit.
I learned about the lawsuit after the fact too.
No LG appliances, no Samsung appliances... any other brands to avoid?
Write on the money you used to purchase this by accepting this money you agree to the terms of service...
Eat shit turdblossoms.
Ah! That's one of the worst parts of the internet, and they've figured out a way to make it real.
At least they mention the arbitration upfront, I guess.
I can't imagine that's enforcible. It is a reasonable expectation that when you purchase the product, you are free to use the product without further limitations being put upon you. They'd have to have you agree to arbitration before purchase, wouldn't they?
In the US it might stand-up unfortunately.
Might, but that article is in reference to digital products and not physical ones.
Exactly. There's no license involved here. This is pants on fire levels of stupid.
The article is bad at explaining this, but the origin of the term is software that you would buy, you would then be presented with a EULA (after opening the shrink wrap on the box), then you would be unable to return it because it was opened.
It originated in the 80s before digital goods were really a thing.
What is it?
Delevoping liver issues, that's what it is.
aka Protein powder
This got me curious because I've never heard of this, atleast according to this study it does not cause liver issues if you use it properly, aka you exercise and don't just drink it casually.
"The results showed that when whey protein is used in an uninformed manner and without exercising, adverse effects on the liver may occur by increasing the apoptotic signal in the short term and increasing inflammatory markers and hepatotoxicity in the long term." - link
Yes, that's the reason, not that it's generally bad. I shouldve clarified.
It's way too easy to take too much. Most people just take their whole daily dose or more with those drinks and forgetting that they get protein from the regular food as well. Most people don't even know how much protein their body is able to process in a day.
Add too much magnesium to it and your blood tests will show how bad it is for you, and your doctor will get mad at you.
We don't need this unless youre doing Sport all day long.
Vital proteins take themselves a bit serious. I’d send it back. Terms and conditions my $$.
Idiot behavior from self important companies should not be rewarded.
return it after opening and consuming. the text does not say if you do not agree do not open. nor does it say you can’t agree, open, then disagree.
Lmfao protein additives (or whatever that is) now come with a EULA…? What a time to be alive 🫠
I think you can figure this one out...
It's in the "agreement".
I have completely agreed to the terms of 500 INTERNAL SERVER ERROR.
Is that even legal?
I would have thought that that applied to the Uber wrongful death suit also, but at least one court decided that type of click-through terms were binding even though it was clearly a bunch of shit.
Although, it was overturned later because it's a bunch of shit. But it was at least a debate.
Depends: how poor are you?
No, but they can use it to drag out the court case until you run out of money.
It probably isn't legally binding, but is enough to get most folks off their back.
An unregulated "nutritional" supplement. If it puts you on dialysis for the rest of your life - arbitration only and the best they can offer is a 25% discount on your next purchase. Limit 2.
Has this been revealed after opening product? What a shit company. Are customers expected to read the T&C's every time someone opens the packaging? FYI, the page mentioned links to 4 additional pages and one of them is a 404.
They’re bringing back Prima Nocta.
You can disagree to the terms by pulling it open the other way around.
hilarious. I think they're doing you a favor so you don't have to buy this product ever again
a kidney or other superfluous organs. mmm fruity
Alright then, dear trusted canopener: We have a mission to perform at the other end.
Next there will be cookie banners
Open it from the bottom.
This is what I imagine buying kratom is like
Not really. They just hand you the powder in a pouch and say "that'll be $16.42, please".
Did... Did someone MAKE you buy that?
It sure looks like this is displayed after peeling back the very top layer that is still slightly attached at the top right in the image.
So they most likely did not know this was a thing when they purchased it.