Immigrants might be in camps, but at least you 3rd party/nonvoters have your sense of moral superiority!
10mon 1d ago by lemmy.world/u/Godric in politicalmemes
If democrat politicians weren't so shit it wouldn't be so close in the first place
So true, the Democrats had a fucking easy ass win all lined up and threw it so hard. 1.6B in campaign funds and they ran on, "We are changing nothing, but at least we aren't republicans."
Everyone below the upper middle class knows the government is not working for the people. People voted for trump because he ran on change. We know he is a liar and using politically uneducated people to push the right wing agenda, but the primary message of his campaign was what people wanted. And he won.
3rd party/non-voters didn't help, but the loss is primarily on the Democrats.
I remember having arguments with these Blue MAGA muppets during the election. I kept trying to explain to them why it was insanity to pretend the economy was fine. But they were morons with a 1984 streak that would make Orwell blush, and thought they could just manifest their way to an election victory. They kept citing CPI data, saying, "but inflation adjusted wages have never been higher!" When you pointed out that inflation purposefully leaves out a lot of the volatility in prices people were reeling from, and how not all income groups experience inflation equally? They didn't want to hear it.
Remember the absolutely insulting, just disgustingly condescending term "vibession?" I do. That term alone probably cost Kamala the election. The only thing that makes people angrier than having to deal with a rotten economy is to have their leaders gaslight them and pretend nothing is wrong.
These morons didn't want to hear it. They have a three monkeys belief system. Just ignore all problems, pretend everything is fine, and just try to bluff your way to victory on election day. You point out the suicidally stupid policies that were killing the Kamala campaign, and they just acted like three year olds saying, "harumf, I guess you want Trump to win!"
This is exactly what people are referring to when they describe liberal arrogance. Criticism is unacceptable. Shut up and tow the line. Vote Blue No Matter Who (unless there's a progressive on the ticket.)
Blue MAGA
🤡
Anyone who says blue maga is a fucking moron
If you don't realize MAGA can be blue, then you are likely blue MAGA. At the heart of MAGA is a rejection of reality, a willingness to embrace magical thinking over objective facts, and a loyalty to the party leaders at all cost. Trying to manifest their way to an election victory, gaslighting the electorate by claiming the economy was fine, and lying through their teeth about Biden's condition? That is textbook MAGA behavior. Biden's people might as well have been up there claiming he aced an intelligence exam like Trump's people are always doing.
Anyone who can't grok the concept of blue MAGA, or think that the blue team is immune to this intellectual sickness...is a fucking moron.
I realize you want fascism
Found the blue MAGA.
Proud moron I see
the actual pieces of shit are the ones who pretended to care about gaza then voted to fuck those people even harder.
we need to be honest with ourselves.
Being angry at republicans for blowing up the government is reasonable.
It's also reasonable to be angry at the democrats, who sat around watching them work towards blowing up the government for fifty years and being like "hurrdurr FAIRNESS!" while doing nothing to stop it.
I think most of us are pretty angry at Democrats as well.
Yup.
I’m just reacting to all the “it’s the voter’s fault”- not you, really.
Like, No. the democrats haven’t done anything to stop this. Even when they literally campaigned on it.
Don’t blame voters.
Vote in primaries, run for office.
You know I've had a DNC member admit to me that they intentionally kill primary campaigns, right?
Well some progressives managed to snook in. We need more.
Lose rigged primaries
Good thing the republican ones are so much better, them being in power, right?
You're right. Republicans are awful. Trump is awful. The Republicans handed the election to Democrats on a silver platter, and the DNC still managed to fuck it up.
Sure, all the DNC and not, you know, millions of nonvoters and such who decided it didn't matter.
Sounds like the Democrats absolutely fucked themselves if they made millions of voters decide to sit the election out. They told voters they weren't going to change anything, so those voters saw no point in voting
"Blue Circus wasn't entertaining enough, so letting minorities get murdered is aktshually a completely legitimate choice beyond criticism, shitlib!"
That's how elections work. People see their material conditions degrade and watch the powers that be do nothing, so they vote against those powers or decide that elections are a farce.
"It's okay to let minorities be murdered if Blue Circus was REALLY unentertaining"
Fuck's sake, you don't even both denying it. You have fun with simping for the aestheticization of politics, one of the core components of literal fascism. It goes well with your full-throated support of Nazis taking power.
Your lesser of two evils bs is so tired. Aestheticisation? That's just dismissive cope. Stop projecting your baseless assumptions and try channeling your frustrations into holding your desired candidates/party accountable
The election was drastically skewed to the right due to tiktok and youtube propoganda.thats whT created the entire move,ent to stay home to protest Gaza. Proor to 6 months before the election, I didnt heard Jack ahit about Gaza.
If we're ever going to fix our elections, we need to do something about influencer astrofurfing. Influencer need regulation and to be held responsible for the ahit they spew.
You want to hand the president even more power? Are you insane?
I had to re-read their comment because this confused me... They said nothing about the president, or handing them more power? It almost reads like you replied to the wrong comment.
Why does this comment have 5 points atm? Who upvotes this?
Wanting the government to regulate free speech is putting that power directly in the hands of the executive branch. that’s why it’s not done… yet
I cast my vote and played your stupid game. What have you done besides lick blue boot?
what about the former statement makes yours occur?
This community is still in denial from last year I see, I guess none of you braindeads learned your lesson huh
Even funnier now that the DNC approved candidate is running as a 3rd party in NYC after losing his own primary. Suddenly no issue voting for an independent candidate there.
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Many core issues were addressed, from climate change to women's rights and LGBTQ+ rights, to concerns over economy (which were improving and have since been downgraded).
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Opponent was objectively worse in Every. Single. Conceivable way. It is after all, a binary choice.
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Uncommitted fucked off entirely on their, absent of any comparative logic.
The biggest thing that comes out of reading threads like this is the erosion of my original belief that I thought the uncommitted were at least smarter and strategic and and more empathetic and more aware of FPTP voting. There is one big reason why Trump won: People were duped by endless amounts of billionaire's money, seeing Trump at his best and Harris at her worst. I thought folks like you were above that; but alas, you drank the kool-aid just the same.
Edit: For the record, I think massive change in the Democratic party must come. That is not an easy task, but it's the easiest path.
I'm getting tired of this back and forth. This bickering is childish and our time would be better spent drumming up positive interest for ranked choice voting.
That's a huge uphill battle, it's outright banned in 17 states. Yes, we absolutely should be doing everything within our power to drum up positive interest, but absolute best case scenario it's going to take several election cycles. We still need to make viable plans for the interim.
If that's an uphill battle then this useless bickering is a pitch black spelunking
That's not a bad analogy actually: advocating third parties is like insisting we dive deeper down the cave, while everyone else insists it's time to go back up. I'm not sure it's useless bickering, we're all tied together and the guy in the meme is endangering us all.
I don't accept that. You clearly know nothing of the social/working movements of the early 1900s. The hallmark progressive achievenments made in this country, many that still exist today (to varying degrees ofc) were a result of literal blood, sweat and tears from third parties.
The Progressive Party led by Roosevelt, The Bull Moose Party with social reformers like Jane Addams and Florence Kelly, the Socialist Party of Eugene Debs.... all of these were most prominent in fighting for and ultimately producing a cluster of social welfare, social insurance reforms, women's suffrage, workers rights/5 day work week, etc.
It was the dedication, pressure and will to not fall in line trying to change the two-party duopoly from within but to build their own movements, their own coalitions on the outside, and thus the mainstream parties were eventually forced to inscribe the populus demands into legislation.
Healthy third parties are a good thing. It builds actual pressure on your legislators. Politicians wont work on your behalf when they know you're voting for them anyway — they're lining their pockets with money from the bourgeois they actually legislate for. Seeking the change you wish to see via third party can and has produced monumental value for the working class.
But sure continue spelunking and misplacing your frustrations on your fellow worker instead of holding your desired candidate/party accountable for their bs offering. We'll keep climbing that hill in the meantime.
Got it, you don't actually think bickering is useless, you just want the people who disagree with you, even partially, to shut up. Very cool.
You clearly know nothing of the social/working movements of the early 1900s.
Why would that be relevant? That was a century ago. The world is different, people are different, there's been a century of anti-left propaganda. It's a fundamentally different situation. You can't keep trying to use the 19th century playbook on the 21st. Update your models homie.
False. I never suggested bickering as a whole is useless. Sometimes it's helpful to inform others, like I just did for you. You're welcome.
And the fact that you willfully dismiss the invaluable lessons of the past, particularly with regards to class struggle, tells me all I need to know — as if a century is a long time ago, I have grandparents still alive born from that time period ha. Neglect history, continue to wander aimlessly.
I'm not bickering, just informing you.
So is everyone you accuse of bickering. We're informing you. That is the most basic premise of dialectics. Without the discussion of thesis and antithesis, there is no synthesis. When one party "informs" another and expects them to accept the thesis uncritically, that is autocracy.
I never neglected the lessons of the past, but they are most relevant to the conditions that produced them. You are neglecting all the history that happened in between. I spent a lot of time with my great grandmother born in 1915. The world is a very different place. We can't keep dusting off grandma's praxis.
You are also neglecting the most basic premise of materialism: align your actions to the actual conditions, not idealism. Continue to neglect materialism for idealism, and you will wander aimlessly.
You're full of fallacies and just talking nonsense at this point. Again, have a nice day.
Bicker bicker bicker
🦗🦗🦗
Behold, a dialectic.
🦗🦗🦗🦗
who banned it 🤔
Florida, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, Tennessee, Kentucky, West Virginia, Arkansas, Oklahoma, Missouri, Iowa, Kansas, North Dakota, South Dakota, Wyoming, Montana, and Idaho
That's an awful lot of southern states. Iowa surprises me because that legalized same sex marriage before a lot of other states
Fancy that, it's like the post was right.
If it doesn't happen now, many self-proclaimed 'leftists' aren't interested.
Apparently the 60+ years of groundwork leading up the Russian Revolution just aren't interesting enough for them.
democrats have a vested interest in preventing ranked choice voting and have already acted to prevent it in areas where it won. So i think fixing the democrats would have to be the first order of business
Agreed, but how do we get it implemented?
Y'all are still doing this? It was moderates who lost you the election, now stop crying about it.
That would require investigating the underlying reasons for election failure instead of the smug vibes-based 'analysis' that centrists prefer
the character in the comic is not a nonvoting democrat (the subject of your linked article).
I did not vote democrat because I am not a democrat and therefore not a nonvoting-democrat. The democrat party did not convince me to cast my vote for their candidate. Just like now I am not a republican either. I did not vote republican.
Democrats lost because they neglected to consider just how important it could have been for their candidate to fucking come out against israel. It’s all she had to do: promise to not send a single dime to genocidal fascists. she had years of opportunity to fight her own president for that kind of change too.
Look what we got “instead.” A fascist who supports genocide.
Both parties are very much the same: capitalist.
It’s all she had to do: promise to not send a single dime to genocidal fascists. she had years of opportunity to fight her own president for that kind of change too.
Even just staying silent on the issue would be enough to differentiate her from Biden for many. She couldn't even avoid talking about how much she hated college students, but yet people act surprised those demographics didn't go out to vote. Weird how insulting potential voters and explicitly telling them you don't care about their vote leads to not getting their vote.
Given she avoided taking positions on most issues until the week of the election (other than to oppose healthcare and support fracking), I have a hard time believing someone in the campaign wasn't intentionally trying to throw the election...
the democrat party
Propaganda.
(for the unaware: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democrat_Party_(epithet))
huh. news to me. good to know. It would help, grammatically, if their party was not named after a concept/philosophy. It’s reminding me of “data are” vs “data is.”
though the democrats have been decidedly less democratic as of late, seems more like the acknowledgement of that fact then just a pejorative. if the shoe fits maybe they should do something about it.
Contrary to what left-wing optimists had hoped, Democratic nonvoters in 2024 appear to have been less progressive than Democrats who voted. For instance, Democratic nonvoters were 14 points less likely to support banning assault rifles, 20 points less likely to support sending aid to Gaza, 17 points less likely to report believing that slavery and discrimination make it hard for Black Americans, 17 points more likely to support building a border wall with Mexico, 20 points more likely to support the expansion of fossil fuel production, and, sadly for economic populists, 16 points less likely to support corporate tax hikes (though this group still favored corporate tax hikes by a three to one margin). Overall, nonvoting Democrats were 18 points less likely to self-identify as “liberal” or “very liberal.”
But my punching bag!!
Only 39 percent of Democratic nonvoters identified as white, while 28 percent identified as Black, and 20 percent as Latino. This means that, compositionally, the more conservative profile of nonvoting Democrats (compared to voting Democrats) cannot be attributed to a whiter electorate.
My, uh, totally not racist punching bag!
Democratic nonvoters were nearly twice as likely (60 percent vs. 32 percent) to have a household income of less than $50,000 per year, they were nearly three times less likely to hold a four-year college degree (47 percent vs. 17 percent), twice as likely to be gig workers (31 percent vs. 15 percent), and only half as likely to be union members (27 percent vs. 14 percent). Further, nonvoting Democrats were more than twice as likely as voting Democrats to report feeling the economy is worse now than a year ago (46 percent vs. 22 percent) or that their incomes had recently decreased. And, perhaps not surprisingly given their economic precarity, Democratic nonvoters were substantially more likely than voters to support increased state welfare spending (61 percent vs. 52 percent).
My not racist, not classist punching bag…!
Granted anyone who either didn't vote but would have voted Dem, voted for trump because they were "on the fence" somehow, or chose to vote 3rd party but otherwise would've voted Dem contributed to this outcome.
That said, yeah the terminally online leftist vote is not what swung this election. I say that as a terminally online leftist who voted for killmala harmus anyway
I’m not saying the article doesn’t make some good points. But, much of it is self-contradictory. It says in the beginning of the article that we can rule out progressive appeals to voters as it was the more moderate voters that stayed home. By the end of the article its saying democrats need to appeal to voters by telling them how they will materially improve the lives of working people.
Focusing on how politics can improve lives of working people materially is literally a progressive appeal.
Definitely true; I'm only quoting the data.
That poll says nothing about non-voters
But also:
The Democratic Party needs to come to terms with the real reasons it lost the presidency in November, including that after over a year of unprecedented protests and calls for Biden to stop sending weapons to Israel, party leadership failed to listen to its own voters who overwhelmingly want their government to end its complicity in Israel’s genocide in Gaza.
That poll says nothing about non-voters
It literally fucking does, at the top, in big fucking letters.
But also:
Yes, there are multiple culprits, and the party is one of them. No one fucking here on Lemmy is questioning whether the Dem party is at fault, but half the fucking place seems to think that voters allowing fascism is just Fine, Actually, because it teaches the shitlibs a lesson at the expense of the lives of marginalized groups, whom they apparently don't give a flying fuck about when it's not Virtue Signaling Hour.
It literally fucking does, at the top, in big fucking letters.
This is what I see:
No one fucking here on Lemmy is questioning whether the Dem party is at fault
To use one of your own phrases, "fucking what"
"Biden 2020 Voters Who Did Not Vote For Harris"
It's literally in your fucking screenshot.
To use one of your own phrases, “fucking what”
I'm sorry, is there some secret cabal of "Harris/the DNC did nothing wrong" posters that doesn't come around here, or are you just extrapolating that position to anyone who dares say voters share some fucking blame for literally allowing fascism because it gave them good feelies?
“Biden 2020 Voters Who Did Not Vote For Harris”
Which could mean a bunch of things, including the thing right next to it that I highlighted: "who cast a ballot for someone besides harris"
I’m sorry, is there some secret cabal of “Harris/the DNC did nothing wrong” poster
This is some next-level denial.
And it worked out great for Gaza!
I've been told by nonvoters on here that they'd rather remain 'pure' than reduce Gazan deaths. So holsum! Such brave opponents of genocide!
Hey, happy cake day :)
And thank you for all you do and post
Thanks!
It's entirely true. They're so high on their own farts sense of self righteousness that it doesn't matter. At least they didn't betray Gaza. /s
Okay and? When you have numbers nearly reaching 40%, what you're looking at isn't hyper-radical moral purity leftists; the majority of these people are almost certainly everyday people who also happen to have something resembling a conscience. There's still no evidence to support a crusade against radical commies who ruined everything, which are clearly the people being addressed/mocked here. Unless you think 40% of Biden-voting non-voters in Arizona are Very Serious Leftists, in which case, uh... yeah.
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The idea that 'everyday people' in the US are that interested in foreign affairs is not realistic. Foreign affairs are, unfortunately, almost purely the domain of the already-deeply politically involved, who tend not to be moderate 'everyday people'.
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Peddling narratives has consequences, yes, even online! Christ, I wish I still believed that online circlejerks didn't affect REAL politics, but this is the post 2016 world we have the misfortune of living in, and especially the post-COVID world where traditional news media regurgitates whatever is loudest and latest in online media. The people saying things like "The Dems are just as bad as the GOP on Gaza! Don't vote for KAMALACAUST!" were absolutely contributors to nonvoters, and especially nonvoters who had previously voted for Joe fucking Biden, of all people, but suddenly decided that HIS well-known and lifelong Zionism was a disqualifier for his V fucking P
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If your view is that any anti-Israel policy in the US is moderate, you have a lot to learn about the US - unfortunately, all of it bad. Simply conditioning aid in the Democratic party was still a distinctly minority view as late as September in 2024, even though favorability of Israel had dropped lower than it's ever been before.
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Occasionally foreign policy issues can filter to the wider electorate. See: Ukraine. See also: WWII. Trump certainly wasn't campaigning on the issue because it's something only lefties care about.
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Context matters. It's one thing to be a hyperdedicated Zionist during peacetime; it's another to be one during a genocide. People can see and act based on the difference. Also the narrative was almost entirely "vote blue no matter who" even among progressives. If someone picked out the voice of dissent to listen too, then that's because they liked what they heard, not because they were mindlessly led along by what they heard online. At this point to even have a chance you'd need to eliminate all dissent, and even then it's likely some of those people would simply become the dissent. By all dissent I also mean Arab-Americans who were having friends and family murdered and just didn't care anymore, anyone who follows global news with any frequency and Republicans ready to exploit any political weaknesses in the Democrats' position.
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People can have views from more than one point of the political spectrum. Every now and then on European communities you'll see people with left-leaning views say something about immigrants taking their jobs, so yeah.
Occasionally foreign policy issues can filter to the wider electorate. See: Ukraine.
Very few people outside of the politically engaged core gave a serious shit about Ukraine even before the propaganda came pouring in through Fox and OANN, which is why Trump and the GOP becoming extremely hostile to Ukraine was done without a fucking peep from their base, and without much outcry from Democrats.
See also: WWII.
... the American electorate literally did not care about WW2 before we entered, and there was considerable opposition even to the limited aid offered by the FDR administration until Pearl Harbor. Like, even American national museums on WW2 and public schooling systems acknowledge this apathy.
Trump certainly wasn’t campaigning on the issue because it’s something only lefties care about.
Trump was campaigning on the issue because:
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There is an extremely strong Israeli lobby in the US which distributes literal hundreds of millions of dollars to 'supportive' candidates.
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There is a core of politically involved right-wingers in this country with strong foreign policy views. They are certainly not moderates or everyday people, which is what I specifically said; I did not restrict foreign policy interest to leftists, but to politicos.
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Unfortunately, many Jews in this country, while formerly more Palestine-sympathetic than the general population (polls post Oct 7 have been mixed), still have a great emotional attachment to Israel and view support of Israel positively. Polls pretty consistently show a very strong majority of Jewish-Americans maintaining, by their own admission, a strong emotional support for the state of Israel.
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Trump was not campaigning on stopping Gaza, but on explicitly making the genocide worse in support of Israel, which is a distinctly right-wing view. Furthermore, aside from the specifics of the foreign policy, it gave him a chance to, in typical fascist strongman fashion, beat his chest about how cruel he would be to brown people, which his racist, savage base adores. This is also why he pretended to be 'hard on ISIS' and then ignored the issue once he was actually in office. No one who voted for him actually fucking cared about ISIS - they just wanted to hear him talk about how he was going to murder Muslim families for the crime of being related to suspected terrorists.
Context matters. It’s one thing to be a hyperdedicated Zionist during peacetime; it’s another to be one during a genocide. People can see and act based on the difference.
Bruh, you and I both know that this genocide has been going on for decades. Furthermore, it's not like this was a fucking secret, which is why I was so skeptical of claims early in 2024 that opinions were changing - mainstream media outlets in the 2010s reported on Israeli war crimes regularly, and Americans didn't give a flying fuck. Seeing a Palestinian kid blown the fuck apart by an Israeli artillery strike was one of my first introductions to the issue on a more-than-surface level.
Also the narrative was almost entirely “vote blue no matter who” even among progressives.
... were we not on the same Lemmy? Fuck, man, mainstream outlets were reporting on such 'cute' nicknames as "Genocide Joe" and "Kamalacaust", both centrist and left-wing American media outlets. There was clearly some amount of penetration of the far-left "Bothsides" narrative into the mainstream, especially since media outlets tend to be cautious in repeating such things.
If someone picked out the voice of dissent to listen too, then that’s because they liked what they heard, not because they were mindlessly led along by what they heard online.
... what the fuck is the difference between those two ideas?
At this point to even have a chance you’d need to eliminate all dissent, and even then it’s likely some of those people would simply become the dissent.
How would it require eliminating all dissent for a fraction of people who voted for Joe fucking Biden in 2020 to vote for someone less pro-genocide than Joe fucking Biden in 2024?
By all dissent I also mean Arab-Americans who were having friends and family murdered and just didn’t care anymore,
Apparently they didn't care about themselves or the family and friends remaining in Gaza. But of course, there was also a plurality of Arab-Americans in Michigan, one of the most Arab-American states in the country, who voted for fucking Trump, so I don't know how much water the "They were really worn out by Gaza and just couldn't support someone who insufficiently opposed the genocide" argument carries.
anyone who follows global news with any frequency
Again, that's not your 'everyday, moderate voter' in America.
and Republicans ready to exploit any political weaknesses in the Democrats’ position.
... aren't we supposed to try to suppress the effects of their activity...?
People can have views from more than one point of the political spectrum. Every now and then on European communities you’ll see people with left-leaning views say something about immigrants taking their jobs, so yeah.
Alright, then that leads to the issue that non-Dem leaning voters were considerably less likely to be anti-Israel, and considerably more likely to be pro-Israel? Your average moderate was not fucking sitting there thinking about Gaza.
I too like punching down at people with no power. It would be too much for democratic leadership to learn the lessons of 2016 and 2024. Just blame progressives and people who want better things!
No I take this back. Harris was right to push for a fascist border bill and Biden was right to flood cops with money. Oh and we can’t forget enthusiastically funding genocides!
The dems really need to try to out fasc the fascists. That way they can persuade the moderate fascists! After all, progressives have no where else to go! I’m so glad Dems have so many big brained think tankers leading these extremely good strategies that always seems to work out well for us.
I too like punching down at people with no power.
People used their power to support literal Nazis, but I guess it's okay because Blue Circus was REALLY not entertaining enough for you this cycle.
I voted for Harris and the like. But the reason she lost is because she failed to inspire her base. It is bullshit that anyone would blame voters for their leader’s failures.
The power differential between a random non voter and the people to blame, establishment dems, is vast. The dems who made unpopular and stupid decisions are mostly to blame for this situation. Attacking voters is just scapegoating bullshit
Sorry that you think that we need to rely on our Aristocratic Overlords and that democracy has no meaning.
I’m sorry you think that leaders shouldn’t lead? Stand for something? Like say that the genocide in Palestine is bad? Actually try to reform the cops? Don’t pull a fascism at the border?
Harris was a dogshit candidate with a dogshit message. Everything is great! Let me tie myself to Biden, a historically unpopular incumbent that had to drop from the race late!
I’m sorry you think that leaders shouldn’t lead? Stand for something? Like say that the genocide in Palestine is bad? Actually try to reform the cops? Don’t pull a fascism at the border?
I'm sure you can quote where I said any of that.
Harris was a dogshit candidate with a dogshit message.
Yes.
A dogshit candidate doesn't absolve people of their duty to vote against LITERAL FUCKING NAZIS
I’m not saying it does. My personal morality forced me to vote for the Dems even though my vote doesn’t matter and I fucking loath genocidiers.
I’m just saying the vast majority of the blame lies at the feet of the people who had power to stop this. Merrick Garland, Joe Biden, and Harris. We put them in office in 2020 to fucking do something and they say on their fucking hands and did nothing. They had power. They squandered it on bullshit.
Direct your anger somewhere productive. Being angry at voters is going to get you nowhere, whereas elected leaders might notice when big cities start electing people with actual decent non neoliberal policies?
Direct your anger somewhere productive. Being angry at voters is going to get you nowhere, whereas elected leaders might notice when big cities start electing people with actual decent non neoliberal policies?
"Sorry, the progressive wasn't pure enough. We're going to boycott him, and criticizing us isn't allowed (but you have to be nice to us, or else our feewings will be hurt 🥺)"
Normalizing purity politics will sink all left candidates, not just the ones who aren't radical enough for your tastes
And I’m sorry that you don’t want candidates to actually appeal to their base? The reason why republicans win is because they throw red meat to their fucking lunatic base. We don’t have abortion anymore because they actually delivered.
Using the boogie man of fascism obviously works on people like you and me, but that isnt enough. Promise something fucking inspiring for once and deliver this time instead of just giving hope.
Using the boogie man of fascism obviously works on people like you and me, but that isnt enough. Promise something fucking inspiring for once and deliver this time instead of just giving hope.
Again, I want that from the DNC.
I just don't think that absolves people of their responsibility to use their vote to avoid creating and worsening literal fucking genocides.
On Lemmy, it's widely recognized that the Dem party is fucked up, but as seen in this very comment section, there are numerous people who still think outright not voting when literal fucking Nazis are running against the anti-fascist coalition candidate is not only fine, but commendable and even morally necessary.
One drum clearly needs beat here more than the other.
On Lemmy, it's widely recognized that the Dem party is fucked up, but as seen in this very comment section, there are numerous people who still think outright not voting when literal fucking Nazis are running against the anti-fascist coalition candidate is not only fine, but commendable and even morally necessary.
One drum clearly needs beat here more than the other.
You beating this particular drum is not helping and will never change non-voters' minds. The message of "you have to vote for us to stop the fascists and that's the only thing that matters" didn't work on most people before the election and it isn't going to work now just because you're repeating it more angrily this time. Yes, it sucks, but that's the reality and you need to come to terms with it.
I understand the anger; I voted for harm reduction myself and am just as distraught that it didn't succeed, but instead of doom spiraling and angrily lashing out at non-voters I am focused on identifying and fixing the problem. People didn't vote for Democrats in large enough numbers to stop fascism, and the reason is that they are disappointed in and uninspired by Democratic leadership. The solution then is not to try and browbeat them into voting, it's to replace the leadership.
The solution is in the primaries, and this is where "purity politics" as you call it is necessary. Railing against "purity politics" in primaries only serves to perpetuate the status quo that led to this defeat in the first place.
You beating this particular drum is not helping and will never change non-voters’ minds. The message of “you have to vote for us to stop the fascists and that’s the only thing that matters” didn’t work on most people before the election and it isn’t going to work now just because you’re repeating it more angrily this time. Yes, it sucks, but that’s the reality and you need to come to terms with it.
No one is going to have a sudden epiphany that "Oh, I just realized! Supporting Nazis is BAD, actually!"
However, we humans are social animals, and we respond to the actions and prevailing opinions of our communities. When our communities oppose an idea, we are more likely to, piece by piece, shy away from that idea as appropriate. In the same way that arguing against racism will change few, if any, racists' minds, hostility against racism is still necessary to create a culture of anti-racism, to both prevent the uncertain from falling into racist thought and behaviors, and to ward away those on the fence from the same. When you're finding yourself as a leftist, finally, excitingly, free of the liberal idiocy of the mainstream Dem party, whether the community you're in gives you asspats for refusing to vote or tells you that's the shit that literally puts Nazis into power will influence your opinions and decisions from that point on.
It's not about 'convincing' people in one, big, overwhelming change of opinion. It's about changing or maintaining cultural norms - even in the 'culture' of a comm as small as this.
The solution is in the primaries, and this is where “purity politics” as you call it is necessary. Railing against “purity politics” in primaries only serves to perpetuate the status quo that led to this defeat in the first place.
Man, I'm a fucking Bernie voter, twice over, and I would've voted for him a third time, even as hopeless as it would've been, had he ran in 2024. I'm not exactly opposed to picking the most radical candidate in the primaries. The issue is that purity politics becomes an issue when it divides the vote against a candidate that is objectively worse from the points of view of both the 'more' and 'less' pure candidate's supporters.
It's why I expect I will yelling at a non-zero amount of people to suck it the fuck up and support Mamdani come November as he gains steam. Mamdani (though I am a Mamdani supporter to the core, from the primary) won the primary, and now it's the duty of everyone who isn't a Nazi-supporting ghoul (like Adams) or a weird sexual harasser apologist (like Cuomo) to suck it the fuck up and express unity with everyone who will suffer even under the considerably more limited influence of a municipal authority.
Fight all you want in the primaries (with some exception granted for "Please unite behind the bigger progressive candidate if things are getting tight against the moderates", such as for WARREN NOT FUCKING DROPPING OUT IN 2020), but in the general, if there are Nazis running, it's a moral necessity to fight against the Nazis.
God, I feel so much better medicated.
this yet again, still seething.
democrat failure is a failure of the democrats. they knew the assignment, they didn’t want to pay the price. they chose this reality instead
Oh boy, is the midterm bullshit already starting?
It started a month ago, actually.
Barely anyone voted for third parties. I have much more blame for the people who didn’t bother voting than the people who voted third party.
I’ll also call out that “not bothering” ignores that a huge sect of the public gets their vote falsely purged, or has their polling location closed, or some other voter suppression tactic.
True, but I also read that the non voters were also about evenly split, it's not like only the anti trump people stayed home.
He just had the popular advantage, mostly an indictment of the then status quo rather than an endorsement of Trump or indictment of Biden.
I am European, so, an outsider perspective, but....
I'd love to know actual numbers, because I get the feeling "commies who voted third party" are too small a group to swing elections. Just a quick look at the numbers on Wikipedia give 0.11% for the Socialism and Liberation candidate. Jill Stein got more, as did RFK even after he had withdrawn already, but I doubt they were the popular choice of the communists arguing here on Lemmy during the election campaign. (Where I, personally, argued for voting for first Biden, then Harris, because I did not see the left in the US as organised enough to react to the kind of oppression Trump would bring early, whereas I'd wager a Democrat would not have escalated like this. Just to root my own bias for context.)
I am not saying it is impossible that they could have swung a very close state, but I admit, I do think it is very improbable.
So, this feels very much like impotent rage to me, directed at the annoying but ultimately equally impotent agitprop people on here. They are loud on here, but do you really think they were that influential during the election?
i think they were given a big megaphone on platforms like TikTok or X by bad state actors like China, Russia, or Republican billionaires, and were used to sway a larger body that would have ultimately voted for Democrats to simply stay home and not vote because they were repeatedly pushed the idea that Democrats were "just as bad".
Hmm, maybe, it is always hard to prove an effect like that. Best one could do is exit polling with specific questions of what influenced the decision, and other polls in general. I was interested what polling was available there, most I found was just non-voters as a larger group, which seems to be predominately non-politically engaged and mostly centrist. One article I have found seems to indicate the non-voting Democrats don't really fit the narrative of being swayed by radical left influencers and agitprop either.
I am also unsure how visible those kind of influencers were on mainstream social media, as I am not active there at all. I always had the feeling they were mostly visible in their own bubbles and by people who got angry at them, thus also getting them served by the algorithms. Their effect on motivating people to stay home, I'd be genuinely interested in seeing in polling numbers, but I sadly could not find any polls with questions like "who influenced your decision to not vote".
In general, psychology-wise, I think motivating people to stay home that would have voted otherwise is I believe a much lower effect, than the failure in motivating people to get up and vote, who would have stayed home otherwise. Which was not the responsibility of those commie influencers the way I estimate it. However - I admit there may have been an effect: By inducing fatigue in activists that had to argue with them, taking away time and resources for trying to reach and motivate properly undecided non-voters.
We kind of take it for granted that right wing people are hugely influenced by bad faith "news" channels and right wing jackasses influencers.
Why couldn't people be moved to not vote along the same way? Especially by people claiming they're normal people and totally not people with ulterior motives?
Gaza nonvoters alone managed to put Trump in office, and that's excluding the other 'left' issues
At the least, protest voters and nonvoters like the very loud folk on here were part of amplifying the propaganda which led people to, bizarrely, believe that letting the more Zionist candidate win was Good, Actually, for Palestine.
Ah, thank you, my search-fu did not provide me good numbers like that.
However, unless I am misreading them heavily, those numbers don't seem to lay out what you mention. They are exclusively about "Biden 2020 Voters Who Cast A Ballot For Someone Besides Harris". Again - I don't think that group is large enough, because even combined, all the left-of-Democrats third party votes seem to be negligible. That is "29% of voters nationally who voted for Biden in 2020 and cast a ballot for someone besides Kamala Harris in 2024". So, again, if I combine Jill Stein, Cornell West, and Claudia De la Cruz, that is 0.72% of the popular vote. Even with a naive calculation of taking all 29% of those that would then be commies like that, that seems like not enough to put Trump into office, unless highly concentrated in very embattled swing states.
EDIT: OK, I forgot, that means also people voting Trump, not just third party. So the influence could theoretically be more. But I doubt commie agitprop pushed a lot of people to outright voting Trump.
The data includes nonvoters, as mentioned in the two pdfs.
EDIT: Accidentally posted while still typing and reading, aaah, this is unfinished.
EDIT2: Okay, this is as done as I will do it, I also looked at the clock, and I won`t be awake for long now anyway.
EDIT3: Okay, this one is the last one, I really have to get to bed, because I am also noticing how diving into this is not good for my health. But turns out you can disregard the stuff I wrote below except for the last sentence, and me still thinking the data is more ambivalent narrative-wise. But while I still maintain the language was confusing, I finally noticed an unambivalent line from the survey: "Of the following issues, choose any that played a role in your [vote for presidential candidate/decision to not to vote for president]. Check all that apply." So, yes, this was indeed also non-voters.
I admit, now that I explicitly checked, that is also how I would interpret (from the PDF):
This survey is based on 604 interviews conducted by YouGov on the internet of registered voters who voted for Joe Biden in 2020 and not Kamala Harris in 2024.
But it is also just ambivalent enough to create questions when combined with the language of the article: Since both the study and the article seem to be by the same institute, I doubt it's a miscommunication error. The language of the article is repeatedly so specific.
For Biden 2020 Voters Who Cast A Ballot For Someone Besides Harris
29% of voters nationally who voted for Biden in 2020 and cast a ballot for someone besides Kamala Harris
When Biden 2020 voters cast a ballot for someone besides Harris in 2024
And then there are questions in the PDF like:
Next, think back to how you voted in 2024. You will see issues that some say may have impacted their vote. For each of those, please say how you feel about that issue.
That seem to indicate that this indeed only targeted people that did vote.
So, colour me genuinely confused, it seems like such a specific and deliberate usage of language. And I have to admit, it feels weird to me, especially considering the IMEU has an interest in making Gaza the most important topic. Note that the same numbers of the survey could also be used to support different narratives, like: 68% said abortion access was important to them and influenced how they voted in 2024, vs 27% saying the same about violence in Gaza. Or Question 12 vs 13, showing that on a policy difference exclusively on Gaza, the people surveyed would still predominately support the Democrat, and only 8% mention not voting if the Democrat supports Israel unconditionally. So, this also does not fit the narrative neatly.
But if this does indeed represent non-voters as well, and one third of those truly did not vote because of Gaza, yes, that is indeed a large enough group to swing close results in battleground states.
CommonDreams reporting on it notes:
"The top reason those non-voters cited, above the economy at 24% and immigration at 11%, was Gaza: a full 29% cited the ongoing onslaught as the top reason they didn't cast a vote in 2024," wrote Ryan Grim at Drop Site News, the first outlet to report the news.
EDIT: Love the quoting data is getting downvoted. Guess the truthiness of it isn't enough for our brave Very Serious Leftists.
It makes me feel insane how many people here, who claim to be "leftists", just outright can't admit that they let nazis take over. I'd actually be okay if they would at the very least admit that their "protest" was a mistake, but that would require acknowledging being wrong.
Oh this bullshit again
It's nonstop everyday now. Super annoying. You can tell people who to vote for all you want but at the end of the day it's their choice. Harping on it after the fact does absolutely nothing but push those people further away.
You're blaming the one independent when there's 80k red voters?
Of course, you can't fix stupid. At least a communist can goddamn read, so they're worth talking to.
You call this "talking to"?
Do you actually need a clarification, or do you just want to bicker?
I don't want to bicker, it's just confusing that people who are presumed worth talking to seem to almost exclusively be yelled at.
Kinda makes me wonder if maybe some of the people currently not worth talking to were previously subjected to a similar talking to.
Memes and humour are rhetoric, and speaking only for myself, I'd rather mildly joke about someone's silly views rather than have a big grumpy debate with them. There's a time and place to sit down and respectfully suss out a topic, and I think good comedy helps more than it hurts - even when a few people aren't laughing.
That much is true, but I don't think I wouldn't call this "good comedy", and judging from the replies in the thread - OP included - I don't think it's intended as a joke either, mild or otherwise. It is kinda amusing, in that victory is presented as always impossible, but I doubt that was intentional. This isn't goodnatured ribbing, this is more, as the kids say, bait.
De gustibus some disputandum, as always
...Do you really just go around talking shit on a political party that isn't even in control? I'm not even in that country, bruh
"oh I'm definitely not worth talking to" cool, bye
As one who left, I feel qualified to dislike Americans more than most. I don't quite fit in in England, but I definitely don't fit in back there either.
At least a communist can goddamn read
I wouldn't say that looking at all these tankies and illiterates in Russia and China.
I feel like the reason there's been a resurgance of posts rehashing this has to do with Zohran Mamdani winning a primary in the largest city in the United States. While being openly pro-palestinian AND using the Socialist word positively to boot.
If Harris had won it is highly plausible she would have endorsed Cuomo leading to Zohran's loss.
Mamdani lends credibility to some of those 3rd party/non-voting/protest voters' strategy.
I think this causes some... feelings.
Imagine being more upset with 3 million leftists than 70 million republicans.
Watching Biden kiss billionaire ass was way better than watching Trump's construction of concentration camps and also kiss billionaire ass.
Holy shit dude. I'm just saying pitting your prefered flavor of commie against neo Hitler was a poor choice imo. Enjoy your moral superiority, you've earned it.
This is a fucking pointless fight. If you're still talking about this responsibility shifting nonsense, it doesn't matter what side of the argument you're one, you're a part of the problem.
Y'all are still going to be fighting about this dumb bullshit while ICE handcuffs everyone. Maybe unify so that doesn't happen.
In summary
Vote blue no matter who:
Pro - Democrats more likely to win. Things won't immediately get worse.
Con - Democrats have no incentive to do anything other than what their wealthy donors want.
Result - Things don't get worse now, but eventual rightward drift is guaranteed because the democrats will do nothing good and the republicans will win eventually.
Vote blue only if X:
Pro - Democrats have an incentive to do something other than what their wealthy donors what, in theory.
Con - Democrats less likely to win.
Result - Democrats might do something good if they win. Rightward lurch is possible if they lose.
Can we please stop litigating this now?
Edit: The "best" approach would ultimately depend on the relative effectiveness of influencing democrat policy via primaries or whatever, and I don't think the answer is immediately obvious. I am not advocating one approach over the other, I just want people to stop pretending the answer is obvious.
The democratic party prefed Trump over giving up some deeply unpopular positions. Truly insane.
Bro, all you gotta do is die and all your credit card debit is gone. If you just keep paying the bills, then the debt stays the same until you miss a bill, and then it gets worse. If you die then the debt goes away. Why keep perpetuating the cycle? Dying is the only way to get rid of debt.
That's what your post sounds like
Except the situation they're describing is a multi-generational one and they're trying to do what's for the greater good over time, which is ironically what the more short-sighted "blue no matter who" people accuse them of not doing. Sometimes things need to be permitted to get worse before they can get better. You can't just follow a simple greedy algorithm of taking the best possible move at every point with respect to the next state of the game. This algorithm is very easily gamed to lead to bad situations.
Plus the republicans cheated. They did it legally through gerrymandering and voter suppression, but they also said they did it illegally. I believe them.
Jesus Christ the election is long over
Simply accept that out of two outcomes (leftists uniting to vote Democrat/leftists trying to send Democrats a message by not voting them in) both would lead to terrible consequences. It was a matter of time, it just got expedited to now instead of few years later.
You cannot vote democracy in if there's no fair democracy in the first place. Elections are over, they won't save you, unite over what you can do instead of wasting everything you have on infighting.
Organize and protest. Join the political organizations in your area and unionize. This is a harder way, and I know it takes time and energy to figure things out and organize and take part in all the actions made, but it is the only way that works.
Please, if you aren't already part of your local organizing teams, go search for them right now.
ITT: Lots of people who don't understand that US presidential elections are a binary choice, and one of them is going to be president.
Primary with your heart. General with your brain.
Well, at least they voted and did their duty as a citizen of democratic nation. Some people didn't even bother to do that much, so for these people they don't get to complain.
Blaming voters will never be a viable political strategy.
If the democrats wanted to stay in power, they knew they would need to pass policy that tangibly improved people's lives. They then promised they would and then failed to help people.
When people do badly financially, they vote out the incumbent.
Well if people wanted things to be better then they'd vote accordingly. They'll suffer all the same for their ignorance.
Viable or not, theyre to blame.
Thanks for showing everyone here how the invalid Neoliberal strategy of blaming voters keeps failing.
Thanks for being the stereotypical "I know better than everyone else" who continues to see their goals get farther and farther away.
Your self righteousness and sanctimonious attitude will surely help you in the coming times.
Cool keep whining I'm sure it will make people blindly vote for milquetoast Neoliberals like their lead addled parents did.
This PIS again...
Oh, let's not blame the Nazis and their supporters in 1930s Germany. Let's blame everyone else who didn't vote the SPD.
You are a Nazi supporter if you let them walk in unopposed.
If the Dems voted for the 3rd party candidate instead we wouldn’t be in this place. Thanks a lot, Obama.
Sarcasm?
While you may think that 3rd party voters were the reason Trump was elected that's simply wrong. Criticizing those who chose to vote third party instead of our current system without rank choice is not helpful and not beneficial to the public.
3rd parties can't win without electoral reform.
Electoral reform will never happen without a 3rd party to force it through.
Chicken or the egg, and the Fascists still win. Congrats!
also the same people parrot third party almost never follow through and actually vote, thats why Rs win most elections, they all vote the same way, or the most part are consistent in thier beliefs, eventhough they are terrible ones.
s/fascists/capitalists/gic;
They're the same things
that’s the point of my regex.
Well, I'm not a programmer. I messed around in bash a few decades ago, so I didn't recognize "gic;"
ahh. gic was “global” (in this file) “ignore case” “change every occurrence”
Thanks! Logical, to the point command, as always.
You're right. The reason is the millions of voters who decided, after voting for Biden in 2020, that they couldn't bear to so much as cast a vote to stop the literal Nazis in 2024 because [checks notes] they were busy slurping up cheap propaganda slop telling them that voting for Dems was Bad, Actually, on the strength of common left-wing issues that were suddenly SUPER important to cede to the Republicans on rather than compromise with the majority of the fucking party.
I legitimately wonder if COVID putting more people online without the tools to discern much of goddamn anything had an effect.
The reason was because honestly Biden didn't do a lot of good. He is obviously much better than trump which is why I voted for Harris in the most recent election but he and therefore Harris were essentially gay Republicans. They wanted to do the same shit on the border as Trump they were just the watered down version of the Republicans. They wouldn't have been as awful as Trump is now but they would still have been bad. If you don't give a left voter base a left candidate they won't vote for them. It is not the fault of the voters but instead the fault of the party and awful candidate choice.
Man, over 90% of the American population believed the border is in some sort of dire straits - and this was before the election.
At some point, you have to face facts that the country is just not that fucking left.
Na homie while I agree it's not a left country it's also not a right country. When you give someone a watered down version of something they will go for the full shit. If the Democrats are just a watered down version of the Republicans people will generally go for the full juice shit being the Republican Nazis.
NPR: Trump still would have won if everyone had turned out to vote. This could only have happened if either a. a(n electoral) plurality in this country prefers evil, or b. the Democrats failed to either have or articulate a platform sufficiently different for voters to see the difference. If the former, no amount of voting one's conscience would have an effect either way; if the latter, maybe folks who want change should either abandon or replace the Democratic party.
Don't forget the protest and ignorant voters! Literally happened on election Day: "I don't like how Biden/Harris is and will be handling Palestine so I'm gonna vote Trump" and "What happened to Biden? I don't know who Harris is, but I saw Trump on TV so I guess I'll vote for him."
Please explain to me how the third party vote would have swayed the election if everyone chose D instead.
Exactly. Trump won Michigan in 2024 by a margin greater than all the third party voters combined.
Should have been the protesting non-voter.
Maybe they were delayed in posting about the 2000 election?
Honestly that's the best example of when the 3rd party vote WOULD have made a difference, not 2020 or 2024. So yeah, absolutely
But know shit libs, they'll cry foul as much and as hard as they can for those of us gaining more and more class consciousness to bend the knee.
Not happening bro! Especially now since we're not in an election season! This is the best time to start repairing the party!
That if is so hypothetical that if my aunt had balls would be my uncle but is not.
I meant like if everyone in the Independent group voted D, for clarity
Well if it is a matter of life and death vote democrats yes but then just dont sit on your butt the next for years (same goes for the maker of this meme), support alternative movements, spread the word, volunteer if you can. Yes republicans and democrats are not the same but I am convinced that more than %50 of the democrat senators will have no qualms about completely changing their supposed ideologies if it is required to keep their seats.
Found the Republican trying to divide the left.
I would be perfectly happy voting third party. I'm also incredibly aware of the risk of splitting votes under the current system. It happened, as an example, in a special election in Hawaii a while back when two Democrats each refused to back out of the race and the lone Republican took office with a plurality that was far from a majority. If there were a runoff, ranked choice, or similar system in place Charles Djou wouldn't have stood a chance because few would choose him over the other Democrat.
Start with changing the voting system, then we can talk third parties.
Pointing out leftists not voting leads to Republicans winning makes me a republican? How drunk are you right now?
Because you're lying. Progressives hold their nose and vote for centrists, but that loyalty only goes one way. Centrists sabotage progressive candidates. Centrists would rather lose to a Republican than see a Progressive win.
im center left and i voted for bernie both times. i don't live in NYC but i would vote for mamdani. many centrists definitely vote for progressives.
it just depends where on the centrist spectrum you fall.
(ok tbh I'm probably right at the edge of being a leftist but to many lemmys here that means i am hitler)
Center-left and centrist are two completely different things. Pelosi and crew are centrists, and if you agreed with those folks I don't think you'd be voting for Mamdani.
i don't agree with them in all cases but i think they are still miles better than Republicans
centrist is more right wing though.
progressives actually dont turnout to vote, so i dont think they are voting centrists.
More Sanders voters voted for Hillary than Hillary voters voted for Obama. Enough with your anti-progressive stereotypes.
somehow i think they are just never trumpers, or embarrassed republicans that support him, but dint want to vote for him. not surprised they went for JILL STEIN and rfk jr.
You being incapable of understanding the reasons people choose not to vote isn't going to make more people vote.
You will never shame people into voting for you lol. It's a fool's dream.
Ah, yes, refusing to vote for the literal anti-fascist coalition candidate is Just Good Praxis, while criticizing letting the fucking fascists win is Dividing The Left.
The problem is you're lying. Progressives hold their nose and vote for Centrists, but Centrists never return the favor. "Vote Blue No Matter Who" is a cudgel used by traitors to the party who just want to silence Progressive voices. Those same people then turn around and fight against Progressives every time they manage to win a primary. How can you see what's going on with Mamdani and learn nothing from it?
How can you see what’s going on with Mamdani and learn nothing from it?
"Rich donors don't like Mamdani"
Uh
Okay?
Tell me, when Mamdani wins in November, will you revise your position? Or will your claim be that suddenly the Dem party is progressive in a supermajority and moderates never really existed?
As a resident of a state where Democrats are going to win, regardless of what I do, a state whose tiny insignificant number of electoral votes don't matter anyway, fuck you.
This sentiment has never made sense because libertarians steal more votes from replublicans than greens do from dems.
The important thing is to be more pissed at the Democrats for not being good enough than you you are at the Republicans for being evil. There is nothing worse than a western liberal, not even the pro-trans-murder party
While that sentiment may be the most frustrating, even if every third party voted against Trump, he still would have won. If even 10% of those voters went to Trump, he would have even won the popular vote. Polling suggests that non voters were about evenly split, so a stronger turnout generically may have done nothing.
The result was mostly due to a very boring reason. Inflation was high so whoever in office gets the blame. Similarly Trump lost mainly because COVID sucked, and anyone would have lost (his response did suck, but we saw that there was no such thing as a sufficiently good response).
People like to imagine some big political cause for good or for ill moving the voters, but by and large it's mostly about how comfortable or uncomfortable they are in the moment to vote for or against the status quo of the moment. But those folks are "just voting" while a very loud minority talks up their "superior" choice to not vote for a lamestream candidate. They speak loudly, but they didn't have enough votes this time to make a difference. They did in 2000 (technically Gore did have the votes when the data was in, but third party would have made it a decisive Gore victory).
Ranked choice voting and money out of politics are much more important than this dualistic psychological warfare. Republicans lose votes to third parties, too. Don't play their game. Vote blue if you want, but also extend love to your "deplorable" neighbor. Our division is a much stronger force for control than who is signing oligarchical legislation.
Y'all are never making it out of the shit you're in if this is how you're thinking. Neither the republicans nor the democrats represent the interests of the working class. You're just pissed now that the fascism your country has been spreading across the world for decades both under the democrats and under the republicans is coming home to hatch now.
I love how divisive this is without respect to gerrymandering.
The only way to vote against the 2 party system is to vote 3rd party. It has to happen sooner or later. Otherwise, the Democrats and Republicans will be in power forever.
The two party system exists entirely because of FPTP, and it will never change until some form of RCV and proportional representation is implemented.
and that won’t happen until democrats are made to or replaced with people who will, which means only voting for candidates who represent your values, and not voting blue no matter who
It is amazing how delusional people can be. Third parties have never truly had a fucking chance so no you're wrong as fuck
Are these third party voters in the room with us now?
Yes.
Source: lemmy.ml and lemmygrad
You mean Russian bots and 50-cent PLA agents? I don’t think they vote in the US. Or at all.
Do you have, you know, any numbers showing that third parties spoiled it for democrats?
You mean Russian bots and 50-cent PLA agents? I don’t think they vote in the US. Or at all.
Yeah fair point.
Jill stein, for example, got 0.56% of votes. The dems would've had a better chance at winning if people hadn't voted for a party that doesn't stand a chance.
https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2025/06/26/voter-turnout-2020-2024/
It would also be great if the dems weren't so shit. That would incentivize people to actually vote for them instead of not voting.
Are these third party voters in the room with us now?
Bruh I can quote one on this very comm less than ten minutes before this was posted
This is way more convincing than electoral data.
You literally asked if they were in the room with us right now.
Like, I don't know how much more 'in the room with us' you want.
But I would say non-voters who deliberately made a choice not to vote based on supposed left-leanings on prominent issues were more important, and, in fact, threw the election to Trump, and I can back that with electoral data if you like.
Is this your first day on the internet? You don’t understand metaphor?
"Are the X in the room with us right now" is a sarcastic idiom implying that whatever is being talked about isn't real within the context of what is being responded to. 'Metaphor' doesn't mean "My words mean nothing", it means "My words have a meaning that is not directly literal".
Yes, so where are the numbers showing third party voters spoiled Harris’ victory?
Then explain WHY anyone owes democrats their vote after decades of sabotaging the working class.
And I won’t accept “b-b-but they’re the lesser of two evils” or “primaries are the time to disagree.”
See the establishment reaction to Mamdani for why that’s absolute BS.
Establishment democrats aren’t progressive but demand our votes as if they were.
I'm sorry that you're yet another privileged leftist who thinks that marginalized groups have to earn our right to live by [checks notes] making sure Blue Circus is entertaining enough for you.
Truly, thank you for supporting our genocide.
I already attend local protests; I have no real options for escaping before the genocide. I'm resigned to dying here, if that's what it comes to. Asspatting leftists for sentencing me to death is not only not useful from your end, but actively counterproductive - but I understand that the lives of the marginalized are less important than being buddy-buddy with your favorite self-righteous pro-genocide commenters.
I'm 'villifying' you for the positions you've taken here in defense of allowing Nazis, ffs.
God forbid the “progressive” party have progressive policies or do anything progressive.
Thanks for giving us republicans and diet republicans.
This fiasco is on YOU.
God forbid the “progressive” party have progressive policies or do anything progressive.
God forbid progressives actually show up to the primaries. Sorry for voting for Bernie in 2016 and 2020; it seems I was the only fucking one.
Thanks for giving us republicans and diet republicans.
lmao
This fiasco is on YOU.
Anything to avoid the fact that you supported the literal Nazis. I guess virtue signaling about how pure your soul is doesn't feel as good knowing that you're helping murder marginalized groups.
Enjoy the blood on your hands.
I voted 3rd party. If only I had voted 1.6 million more times for KH, I could have changed the outcome of the election!
Unfortunately yeah. In fact 3 of the largest Lemmy instances are populated by almost entirely by these third party voters. Even this thread seems to be packed with third party voters trying to defend their support for fascism with the excuse "It's not my fault I voted third party, I don't understand American politics"
Even this thread seems to be packed with third party voters trying to defend their support for fascism with the excuse "It's not my fault I voted third party, I don't understand American politics"
Could you link them? Because I only see one person even saying they didn’t vote Democrat.
Look anywhere in this thread
The one guy who says he voted third party spoiled Harris’ victory?
Show me the numbers.
People who focus on just one sole issue and ignore the full consequences and the reality of the say they do have deserve about as much democracy as MAGA. But don't worry, you no longer will have any say at all.
This made me laugh more then it should have especially cuz we are living this now.
blaming that one guy is the mentallity that brought that country to its knees. good job, and have fun in the camps.
In my opinion, one should have voted blue, aka against red, and after vote going on the street and write dems to do their fucking job as it meant to be.
Solely because I think that dems would at least listen to the people.
And if not, there is reason to riot and one would have not to fear federal police and military as much as US people have to have now resisting.
This is a view from an outsider.
with no leverage because they know you will vote for them no matter what anyways.
That is why my post suggests to riot, if they would have not listened, but riot with clear objectives.
The same dems that listen to people about Palestine in a election year and lost because of it?
Dems were split on that topic, if I recall correctly.
I think, it would have bee possible to build pressure on Palestine killer promoter dems by speaking out and supporting dems who speak out against the slaughter, like Bernie did.
Ah, yes, because even a single vote can change the course of an election that is rigged from the start. The real answer is to vote for the lesser evil, then go out and arm yourself for the inevitable, as only violent revolution can solve this problem at this point.
That's how I feel. I think we've devalued the constitution to the point where it needs to be replaced. That's only likely through an over throw.
Dios mio
I always vote third party and I'm not stopping now.
I don't think there are enough communists to sway the election. It's a tiny tiny minority.
They are not thinking straight if they think they're making a difference though. You'd need a new centrist party (or preferably 2 new centrist parties) to break the 2-party system in USA.
Can someone please tell me a communist country that doesn’t strip citizens of their rights?
Literally not how elections work in any country on earth.