Which stage are you at?
9mon 13d ago by lemmy.world/u/voodooattack in linuxmemes
Alt text: A line plot with 2 axis (confidence vs competence) referencing the Dunning-Kruger effect with various distro logos placed at different points on the line. Starts with mint/ubuntu near (0,0) and progressing through multiple distros to end up with opensuse/fedora at what it calls “the plateau of sustainability”
I assume Hannah Montana Linux is off the chart to the right
Hannah Montana Linux, or HM/Linux as I've taken to calling it, is the sign of true civilization.
Users often achieve enlightenment and can simultaneously interact with many planes of existence - that just can't be shown on a 2D chart for us plebs.
why is manjaro there twice? it's a horrible experience no one in their right mind would return to
“Maybe I was the problem?”
they managed to make arch less stable, never update their ssl cert, and every installation slowly falls apart until it's unusable... sure, I'm the problem
You are, by installing it in the first place.
My system I installed 10 years ago is unusuable now?
"I donated money to them so I am going to use it."
Although not much, just 20 EUR. Not sure how much the bundled Windows license costs, but surely Microsoft has other ways to earn from spyware.
Nope. The developers are notorious. Look it up bud.
I love my Manjaro. I always come back to it… but I may not be in my right mind.
To be fair, it's OK. Just you might want to check out EndeavourOS when you need to format your PC again.
I have both and I like them almost equally.
I think I've seen this story before. :P
I love that !
Everything is in the “almost” 😅
Fedora is also there twice.
This is perfectly normal.
It also works with a Gaussian: (Noob) haha Fedora go brrr -> (angry advanced) nooo you must use Arch/Nix/Gentoo/Slackware -> (Linus Torvalds) haha Fedora go brrr
Fedora fucked up my PC way more times in a year than Gentoo did in 3.
I'm not leaving Gentoo.
I've updated fedora releases for like 10 years with zero issues, even went from one laptop to the other and dd'd three times to new SSDs without reinstalling.
I think it may be you who fucked up your PC.
It was nvidia drivers mostly.
And it was 12 years ago.
Yeah I had lots of problems with Winmodems on Slackware 20 years ago, definitely a bad distro too!
I switched to Ubuntu then and has no issues since.
So yeah.
But you said you were on Gentoo
Yeah, switched from Ubuntu to Gentoo eventually, since Ubuntu went to absolute shit.
Except Fedora is actually fine as an option. Though I had my share of troubles setting it up, and their decision to ditch X11 forced my hand to OpenSUSE when I went for it the second time. Had no regrets so far.
Look, don't judge me, but manjaro has been the only distro to just work. I haven't been fucked by nvidia drivers that I know of, I haven't had any glaring issues... I'm not saying I disagree with the criticisms, but as a 'just use the fucking computer' distro, it's great.
Manjaro's fine. Most of their problems were years ago. If it works for you, don't listen to the mob.
As someone who ran Manjaro as my first Linux for 1,5 years, it's a breeze to set up and everything just works...until it doesn't.
What screws it is that eventually, over time, something goes wrong. Something breaks here and there, new bugs appear, and without Arch proficiency that is not really expected of a Manjaro user, it's next to impossible to track it down. So, eventually one has to reinstall.
I've been a strong Manjaro proponent back in the day, but now I see its flaws, unfortunately. I wish it could be a great option, though.
Lol, that does make me wonder. I think I changed the boot process from silent to visible at one point, because it wouldn't boot if the silent option was enabled.
That's...very odd :D
Especially if it was GRUB. This thing normally just works on any distro, even the less stable ones.
Yeah, it was grub. I changed it to see if I could find where it was hanging in the boot process, but as soon as I made the change it would simply boot without issue.
Manjaro is awesome. The hate is not deserved and as you said, everything just works perfectly.
Manjaro is a tempting option when you want Arch without being competent enough to confidently operate Arch.
Been there before. Had it for over a year for the first time, but quickly noped out on the second try.
Starting fights today are we?
Mint, and I'll stay with mint. Perhaps I'm not a good Linux user material, but I just want something that works and doesn't get into the way. You know: a reliable, unobtrusive operating system.
And there’s no shame in that! Use whatever works for you and don’t let anyone tell you otherwise.
There is SO MUCH shame in that, the pitiful noob wont even learn to RTFM, and then I'll have no way to feel superior to them as I dip my beard into my off brand morning cereal #frostedfakes
Mint is just perfectly fine, don't listen to the naysayers.
As the old observation goes, novices use something like Mint because it's there, and it works; intermediate users use something like Arch because they want the control to tweak things in the greatest depths; experts use something like Mint because it's there, and it works.
Same here. I started with mint 10 years ago, fucked around and came back to it.
Not a Dev, but I work in tech, so it does most of the things I want and can tinker with nascent projects without blowing my foot off.
Using mint doesn't mean you're bad at Linux using arch doesn't mean you're good at it.
Mint is the start and the end for a lot of people for good reason.
Same here, played around, but mint keeps pulling me back in. 10+ years going strong
I like it because when I have an issue, the ones for Ubuntu and Debian also work.
Mint is fine. If you love it, there’s no reason to leave. Personally, I’m a fan of KDE and I strongly dislike the retro-Windows feel of Cinnamon so I settled on Fedora after Mint dumped its KDE edition.
Which is exactly what OpenSUSE/Fedora have to offer. It just works and doesn't get in the way. The only real difference between them and Mint in terms of user experience is that they require some more proficiency with the terminal and experience with Linux overall and do not assume user to be a complete newbie.
So, you're on the right track with Mint. It holds to nearly the same philosophy, and offers you the tools you may find useful as a less proficient user. Keep it up!
Meh, I'm relatively experienced and just use Ubuntu
Is pop maintained? When are they upgrading to the latest Ubuntu and supporting HDR?
Is it still not in beta? I was on pop in late 2023 and left for OpenSUSE TW because cosmic was taking too long and they were still on Ubuntu LTS 22.04. and Gnome Extensions broke on me.
I see it's just recently been announced about the beta. Great that they're hearing up for release. I'm in support of what they're doing I think I realised that I didn't like Gnome (neither does System76 by the looks!).
OpenSUSE TW with KDE is perfect for me. Not a sexy/flashy distro but it is the most robust rolling release I've seen, and maintained by a European company that has been working on it for decades.
Particularly like the QC/staggered addition of packages and YAST.
Love me some SUSE. People forget that it is one of the OG distributions out there. Been trying Linux from time to time but only switched completely from windows earlier this year. Been messing with Fedora and SUSE way back as a teenager. Unfortunately my experience with opensuse was laggy YouTube on a complete fresh install (AMD btw) so I just switched to cachyos which didn't have any issues (sooo much better than Manjaro IMHO). Still love SUSE... And fedora. These two will always have a place in my tech heart.
Edit for typos from typing on glass.
Nice one, Fedora I've been keen to check out. it seems similar to SUSE albeit with a different package manager and no Yast. I respect a quality controlled rolling release.
How's cachyOS? I'm very wary of the AUR/Arch generally. There must be so many unmaintained packages on there.
Yast is great but I honestly don't find it all that useful nowadays. Feels to me like most of that configuration can be done through KDE anyway. Still, great piece of software, might just not fit my current needs.
CachyOS, Manjaro and endeavour OS are all Arch. The main selling point for cachy is the ease of use when installing "stuff for gaming" e.g. gfx drivers and their custom compiled kernels and software packages (basically just other builds of packages on the Arch repo) have been optimized for newer generations of CPUs. Light weight, heavily optimized, customizable. Lots of small optimizations here and there. You can do the same on Arch but I don't want to bother. I know what do to and how to, but been there done that.
Yeah TBH Yast is more of a GUI for accessing the backend settings when I can't be bothered looking up cli commands, but nice to have.
Ah, CachyOS being gaming oriented makes sense. My dream rig is a SteamOS 9070XT build so I can have quick resume on the PC. I thought Bazzite could do that game mode setting, so was considering that as the eventual next PC.
Not gaming focus as such, but the optimization of kernel and packages, tweaks and use of the BORE scheduler gives some performance boost. Tests show this. This of course is good for gaming but they also have a great wiki on setting up for gaming and includes some config/setup scripts that makes it a little easier to set up, e.g. cachy versioner of Proton.
"Not a part of your personality" then "PopOS, btw"
I've been using Linux since you created a boot floppy by using dd on the kernel. I use Ubuntu because I just want something that works, is stable in the LTS sense of the word, and I don't have to futz with. I've heard enough about Mint now that I'll probably switch over to it when I build my next machine in several years.
I’ve been using Linux since you created a boot floppy by using dd on the kernel
Wait, is that not how you do it anymore? I swear, I just went through trialing a few more distros, and I dded like crazy.
You might have been using dd to burn an ISO image onto a USB stick or some such, but sincerely doubt that you were writing just the kernel to the first sector of a 3.5" floppy disk and then booting off of it, while it found your ISA hard drive.
Ah, right. Totally different.
Same here, except I switched to Mint a couple years ago. You won't be disappointed. And if you're sanguine about waiting until you get a new machine, just go with LMDE.
Been maining Linux mint for 3 years now. I did distrohop once to nobara to see if the grass was greener on the other side, but had to revert due to Nvidia.
... The grass wasn't green, but tasted exactly the same. Apart from Nvidia (which isn't a distro issue but more shitty company that can't make things right), the only noticeable changes is going from cinnamon to KDE.
There's no "stupid distro" nor "smart distros". Everything is valid. (Although I'd argue that Linux mint is the best beginner distro, to let people get into Linux gently before eventually trying something else)
I was going to say - what’s wrong with Mint?
I don't feel the need to switch. Ubuntu serves me well. And I prefer GNOME
How's the Wayland support in Linux mint?
Available and in active development. You can still use GNOME on mint, BTW.
Debian servers in the streets, Kubuntu desktop in the sheets.
I use Ubuntu on the server too :3
I want to see a graph where X ranges from "ambitious" to "I'm so tired", and Mint is at the end. That's where I'm at.
Same. Mint was at the start too, though.
tried a few distros before mint because i thought it was less cool or whatever, but then it was the only one i could get working. every few months i try something else and come crying back...
Linux experts vastly overestimate the amount of annoyance average people will put up with. Most people just want it to work, and want to learn almost nothing. I don't blame them, Linux is a means to an end.
Ragebait
i'm on NixOS
...and I've been on NixOS for mount stupid, valley of despair and, perhaps, the plateau of sustainability
This is funnier if you have mint or Ubuntu on both extreme ends.
Servers = Debian
Desktop/Laptop = Arch
My guess before reading the comments:
"Everyone hated that."
Oh fuck of with this bullshit. This is why linux is not on more PCs, this distro elitism.
FIFY
This probably outs me as an old fart, but my first computer experiences were with assembly and BASIC intepreters, then things like COBOL, Fortran, and Pascal.
I remember when Bill Gates got his panties in a wad over people sharing MS BASIC and always tried to steer clear of M$ products from then on, although I did have the common misfortune of having to use Windows in several work environments throughout my career. Luckily, the last I ever had to touch as an admin/user was Windows 7.
My personal desktop OS history is as follows:
Solaris -> OpenBSD -> Slackware -> Debian -> SuSE -> Mandrake -> Gentoo -> Redhat -> Fedora -> Sidux -> Arch -> OpenSUSE -> Mint.
I stick with Mint because I don't want to spend my time tinkering on the OS, and it makes helping all the noobs/non-techies I have convinced to switch to Linux over the years that much easier. This is well over a hundred at this point, and you know who most of them come to when they have a problem. With Mint, they seldom have any issues.
The years I spent tinkering taught me a lot, especially on the rolling OSes, but these days I appreciate having a system that just works reliably, so I can spend my time tinkering on my own projects instead. I have VMs for other OSes as needed anyways.
Now you damn kids get off my lawn!
The Fedora propaganda is getting annoying.
I don't really care about others but please avoid Manjaro they had some shady finances and apparently don't manage their certs correctly
I am so sick of seeing this ridiculous diagram being labeled the "Dunning-Kruger effect". Go read the actual 1999 paper they wrote. The key takeaway is that the lowest quartile of people tend to overestimate their own performance, and the top quartile underestimate theirs. It doesn't posit anything like this graph, and this is just an ironic example of ignorance.
And second, I am so sick of seeing these ridiculous distro comparisons. Stop with this elitism, even if done humorously. People of all experience levels can be found using different distros, and they all have unique advantages, disadvantages, and communities built around them. Don't shame the great effort that people put into maintaining and developing distros, repositories, and packages. A noob can use Arch, and a master can use Ubuntu. Use what appeals to you, and be happy in knowing you can experiment or stick to anything. This is the beauty of FOSS and the Linux ecosystem; it's a great place for both tinkerers as well as those who want familiarity. There is no one true way.
Debian is love. Debian is life.
Ubuntu and Mint need to be repeated on the far right (the actual Sesame Street definition of "right", not Nazis)
Full circle, back to Mint
I use opensuse tumbleweed
There are several of us!!
Yeah!! I use KDE plasma :3
I use it within a distrobox. I love it
It's the one i'll go for once I have energy to switch from Debian.
Not that I have many things against Debian, but the install it once is the thing attracting me. Yeah... changing a word in my sources.list is hard!
Start using it in a distrobox and once you switch nothing much will change except the underlying base os that you don't touch anyway.
I chose Tumbleweed for my first desktop Linux install a couple of months ago. Only had some minor issues so far (like missing codecs).
Although I recently tried to build a Kwin plugin, and even though I figured out the build dependencies, it didn't show up as expected, not sure what's going on there.
Tumbleweed might be a bit of a hard start, since it assumes you already know a bunch of nuances. But I'm happy that you were ready to learn and grasped it from the get-go!
Hope you'll have your software figured out
Not a graph of the Dunning-Kruget Effect. It's actually a reverse of the uncanny valley chart. This is the Dunning-Kruger effect chart:
I'm gonna put this out there: If you can do Endeavour or Manjaro, you can do Arch, and Arch is in no way less stable than Tumbleweed. All you need to do is to pick btrfs and enable snapshots and then never use them.
I’ve started with Debian and I’ve settled with Debian, have had no need or ambition to distro hop.
Why in the world is Fedora peak enlightenment. Any well run, simple, community run distro is peak enlightenment.
I just spent 2 hrs last night in my Kali vm, trying to find an exploit on a web server. It was running Laravel 11.30 and vulnerable to a URL query to change the env to dev. So yeah peak of mt stupid is accurate
The key is you installed Kali in a VM. The true peak is installing it on bare metal and then using it as a normal computer.
Kali purple on trunk laptop comes in handy but I can't say it's used often.
I know nothing, and I'm keeping it that way
My system of choice is Mint, btw
Fedora on laptop, NixOS everywhere else, don’t really feel enlightened
Same. I run Fedora on my desktop and laptop and Nix on my servers (except one that’s still using Ubuntu and I keep putting off migrating it but it’ll happen eventually)
What is nix and why is that your server choice? I am running parrotos but I just want to use it as a media server and maybe game rarely
NixOS is a different approach to package management. Instead of installing packages using a package manager, you edit nix files (written in the nix language). Instead of changing individual config files for the programs and services you install (e.g nginx.conf or postfix.conf, each having a different syntax), you configure them using nix configuration files with a unified syntax.
There is a catch: your system becomes immutable and fully reproducible. Clone the file tree under /etc/nix from one system to another, apply it, and they become identical.
The configuration files are written in a functional language that allows you to customise your system as much as you like.
Read more about it here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NixOS
Edit: I actually use Nix on Fedora (you can install it on other distros without fully migrating!), and I use home-manager to manage my user environment and dot files. It’s pretty cozy.
Edit 2: and to answer the second question, I use it on my servers because it has comparable stability to Debian-likes while also being super convenient to use. A unified approach to server configuration is a win for me.
I hope nix and home manager become as easy to use and get the same reputation to non techies as brew is and has
NixOS is a declarative OS. Instead of installing a software, you specify it in a config (.nix file) and rebuild. Same goes mounts, services etc.
I use it because it is great to be able to revert if I do something stupid.
Mint is my sustainable pleateau. I've used Kali, Zorin, Haiku, Plan 9, and ReactOS. I'm mostly satisfied with what Mint gives me, and what it doesn't. I know people don't always approve of this, but I genuinely used to like Windows. And Mint, generally, works like Windows back when it was good.
Yeah it's pretty obvious in this sub who is a hobbyist and who actually deploys or develops on Linux. Yeah I've distrohopped and built from scratch and all that great stuff, but at the end of the day it's hard to beat "noob" distros for initial deployability. Then you can obviously customize whatever you want from there.
Eh, as much as there's obviously folks who use certain distros for the fun of it, the vast majority of distros get created to cover a specific use-case. If you have that use-case, then deploying the respective distro brings you so much closer to your target setup than the easy installation of a noob distro could save you time.
I also have to say, many stereotypical noob distros make extremely conservative choices, which makes them harder or scarier to use in various ways, like for example not having filesystem rollback. I cannot imagine going back to that, specifically because I have shit to do.
why don't you just run plan9 it's more user friendly than mint /s
If you have an account from the old Holmdel server, it can be friendly since you can basically download your UI & configs. But most of us don't have that anymore.
Started with Ubuntu, happy where I'm at 🖕🏻
I've been working with Linux for the better part of 20 years at this point. Ubuntu is perfectly fine my time is too valuable to spend numerous hours fucking around getting shit to work properly. If that makes me an idiot then I'm happily an idiot.
I get that many people have issues with snap, SystemD or whatever else they want to throw out. I don't give a shit. You're whinging into the wind over nothing burgers.
started at debian still at debian
Swap Debian with Fedora and we're solid. Thanks for coming to my Ted Talk.
Twelve years in, cloud engineer, have Mint on all my home machines cos i dont have to think about it. I like your chart but its dumb.
& then people return to PopOS, ubuntu, LinuxMint & Debian.
Started at mount stupid, went to know nothing and am now stuck on valley of dispair. Also actually bricked my MB.
Debian. Anything to the right is lies.
I'm running Kinonite and Fedora Cinnamon spin on my two machines. So I must be at 'enlightenment'.
Honestly, I'm tired Boss-- so tired. After years and years of fooling around with various Distros, I no longer want to work hard to make my computer work. I like the auto-update feature of Kinonite. Life is short and I ain't got that much of it left to waste on Arch.......
Uses Fedora
S M U G
For me it was Mandrake -> Debian -> Mint -> MX -> Debian
So nothing like that graph.
Hello fellow late 90's/early 00's Mandrake enjoyer!
Another Mandrake user off and on user back then. Was my first Linux, mainly because the install was very easy to do. Since it was based on Red Hat, I guess I started at the right end of the curve and worked my way back to Ubuntu.
I still miss Mandrake
Nice corporate ad...
I would rather "despair" with a community based distro than using capitalistware were that graph true, however my Arch machine works perfectly fine and have no need to do so. On the other hand corporate distros...
Arch had been rock solid for me since 2012...
So apparently I go from "knowing nothing" to "guru" and back daily.
I went from Debian to Mint
although…
… now I'm thinking about switching to NixOS and it's not even there.
But then again, I feel like my confidence is lower than my competence, and I really like things that require less tinkering nowadays
This is pure rage bait.
I still use Kubuntu, btw.
Mint on my desktop and Pop on my laptop...so that part seems accurate for me.
As a Qubes user, do I span the entire graph?
I've gone backwards. When I had nothing but time, I did fedora bleeding edge. Moved to ubuntu for almost 10+ years. Moved to Linux Mint last year and debating moving back to Ubuntu.
I started out with Slackware 3.0. It broke all the time. Tried Debian. Was happy ever since. Tried Ubuntu on laptops but later decided it's just Debian with extra steps so I went with Debian after all.
Where does sadistic curiosity about Slackware fit on this graph after daily driving OpenSuSE Tumbleweed?
Its kinda like Schroedinger's cat, except it's your sanity in the box alternating between valley of despair and plateau of sustainability
Once you know Debian you know the Truth. All other distros are heresy and must be punished.
Praise be to Debian.
Our distro, who art in RAM. Debian be thy name. Thy processes come. Thy will be done, on local as it is in the cloud. Give us this day our daily resources, and forgive us our distro hopping, as we forgive those who distro hop against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from software patents and copyrights. For thine is the processes of power and glory, for ever and ever, Amen.
"trauma induced return to Ubuntu" 😭 it was my wifi not working that did it, and I'm just so used to Ubuntu from years of using it at work...
Been using Arch + KDE Plasma since 2021 with very few issues. Now I have a job as a support engineer for a Linux software company.
Been in the Valley of Despair (Gentoo) for twenty years.
I think I like it here.
Not a single comment about Kali that I can pick a fight with?? So disappointed rn
I love how Fedora is on here in two different places. I only take a small amount of offense at Pop_OS being so far to the left. It’s decent, even if Cosmic is still a work in progress.
I keep coming back to Fedora, though. It just works.
20+ years in, I just use the tool I know will get the job done.
LMDE on the laptops.
Arch on the media/gaming rig.
OpenBSD on the writing machine.
Heey!
(Me on Mint)
Fellow mint user here. With me they aren't wrong but I'm still angry.
Endeavour
listen, i just want to play my games on my computer. i have limited knowledge of linux, i just host ragnarok online servers on my ubuntu mini computer, which was not a big ask in complexity. i don’t want to be a hacker, i just want to play delta force with my friend, and escape the windows ecosystem, so why all the hate?
I feel like Arch can accompany you throughout the graph if you want.
Why is facebook the final stage?
30 years of using Linux and I think this chart is whack. RPM based distros run by enterpises are the worst. I was happier with Slackware than Fedora. 🤣 I only use those when work forces me too and after the CentOS and SLES fiascos - F that noise. I'll only recommend debian for work servers unless there are STIG/FedRAMP security requirements and then it's begrudgingly over to Ubuntu.
When work isn't in the way: EndeavourOS on my desktop, Debian on my servers, and debian/alpine for my containers or better yet; golang and scratch.
I went from Ubuntu to Mint to Debian and, now, Guix; so…I dunno.
I skipped that whole initial peak: started on Ubuntu 20 years ago, moved to kubuntu after unity and moved to tumbleweed 6 months ago.
I'm at the Kubuntu stage, and don't intend on changing anytime soon!
Being a Debian guy for a long time, now Guix.
Went straight from ubuntu to fedora so I guess I skipped the whole ride.
Damn I jumped right from Pop_OS to Endeavour, then plunged into Arch before running back crying to Endeavour...
I feel like nixos doesn't belong on this meme, and I'm happy it's not. While it's technically Linux, I feel like it's different enough that learning nix only teaches you a bit about Linux and a lot about nix.
Linux Mint and haven't done anything else for over a year.
My arch only breaks when I (unknowingly) tell it to.
ironically started on fedora and debian like 20 years ago (which i hate is 2006ish instead of 1976 T_T); mostly for servers.
now i'm on mint in my first foray into using it full time as a desktop so i know most of the cli and backend stuff and it's just getting used to the ui and desktop parts.
I use Debian and Kali funnily enough. But then again im studying cysec.
Gravity brought me back to Arch from Fedora.
Ok this describes me annoyingly well. Ubuntu, then Manjaro, then Arch, and now Gentoo. Now I don't really want to go any further because I quite like this distro :p
I run Fedora in the Valley of Despair.
Where nixos?
After running arch for a long time, I just installed the sway community edition of endeavoros on all my machines. It works well, while allowing me to use tiling without having a ton of configuration time.
I did my first ever Linux install on a new build last year. I chose Mint, and the process was very smooth with only a few minor bumps getting up to date drivers for my newish AMD GPU. Since then I’ve grown increasingly annoyed by how limited GNOME applications are in general while also gaining increasing respect for the amount of functionality packed into KDE applications. So I’ve been shopping around for a KDE distribution. Fedora and openSUSE keep coming up, and I think I’ll be trying openSUSE soon. So I guess I’ll be skipping from the bottom left all the way to the top right.
Competence
A couple of weeks in, and I'm probably exactly where my chosen distro (Pop OS) is.
Ubuntu: they tell you its easy, but in fact is a huge pain in the ass and breaks. Last two installs for projects I was working on were broken out of the box.
I remember trying Ubuntu 4 and wondering what the fuss was about. It IS the despair. Nice fonts and colors though.
Debian, since etch. Also, not corpo owned since birth.
Mandrake > Suse > Debian > Gentoo > Arch (since 2008).
Next machine will probably be debian, if any. Might stay with the work macbook.
Facebook OS
Arch. After every update I check what broke. And then discover things I forgot to check.
I am still not sure if it's already safe to upgrade VirtualBox and iio-sensor-proxy, but I am too lazy to just downgrade them yet again.
So I just...
IgnorePkg = iio-sensor-proxy # Issues in Wayland after suspend
IgnorePkg = virtualbox virtualbox-host-modules-lts virtualbox-host-dkms virtualbox-guest-iso # Segfault in 7.2.x, reverted to 7.1.8 - see sys-management-log.txt entry 2025-08-29
If you're curious about the log entries:
2025-07-06:
downgraded iio-sensor-proxy to 3.6-1 as 3.7 caused issues after suspending
added iio-sensor-proxy to IgnorePkg in /etc/pacman.conf
2025-08-29:
downgraded virtualbox packages to 7.1.8 as 7.2.x was broken (segfault)
installed linux-lts-headers as the downgraded virtualbox suddenly wanted that
removed and reinstalled related packages a couple of times (virtualbox-host-modules-lts, virtualbox-host-modules-arch, virtualbox-host-dkms), as well as switching between linux-lts and linux. Hopefully that didn't create any brand new funny business.
I want to die
added IgnorePkg = virtualbox virtualbox-host-modules-lts virtualbox-host-dkms virtualbox-guest-iso to /etc/pacman.conf
I recommend writing some documentation about your system. My Manjaro install became a total unknown mess after a while. I know I had to create some symlinks at some point to fix something, something something custom "XDG_CONFIG_HOME" dir with separate theme to un-break Cisco Packet Tracer on dark theme, edited startup script for Packet Tracer.
On one Ubuntu VM I edited a bunch of config files that I didn't remember so it was just don't touch it while it works.
But hey, I feel better after knowing that during high school our internet was down for weeks because something broke on main proxy server and nobody had documentation for the 2 decades old backup server, including the password, so it just ended up running in a "don't touch it" mode, except that it also limited download speed on unknown PCs (based on MAC) to something like 32Kbps, which after 20 years meant nearly any PC so the solution was to copy MACs from basically ewaste.
Anyway... write documentation for what you do.
I went from Tumbleweed to Garuda to Endeavour to plain Arch, so either your graph is off or me. Or both.
Pretty sure my journey looked something like:
- Ubuntu for a while
- A furious bout of hopping experiments: Debian, ElementaryOS, Crunchbang, MX Linux, Fedora
- Arch for a bit, but it was too much struggle
- Ubuntu for a while, embracing the "vanilla" lifestyle
- Manjaro for a while. It seemed to solve my previous issues with vanilla Arch.
- EndeavourOS, basically a better Manjaro.
- NixOS, which had a significant learning curve but ultimately gives me the most control and repeatability for all of my machine configs. Still daily driving this on my desktop, router, and some web servers.
- Tried out Fedora Atomic on my old laptop out of curiosity. Installing packages was ultra slow. Workflows were too annoying.
So I think the graph is actually pretty reflective of my own experience, aside from some of the specific distro choices during my peak ignorance phase, and obviously I ended up at NixOS which isn't even on here.
Garuda has - apart from their theming - a pretty decent setup
Using Debian since around Ham/Slink.. what are all these other icons?
Ahhh. Put NixOS and VoidLinux at the end
Lol. My main PC is Nobora (Fedora fork). My kids laptop is tumbleweed and I'm setting up an HTPC with bazzite.
So...two Fedora, 1 OpenSUSE.
Guess I know where I place on this graph.
Went from Ubuntu, Mint, Manjaro, Garuda, Kubuntu, Bazzite, now CachyOS. Cachy has been wonderful for all my needs
Fedora Silverblue. My version of "mount stupid" (or "valley of despair") probably.
Put Bazzite alongside mint. I just want to game!
I went slackware to debian and am now at ubuntu. Give me a reason to waste my time with any of the others and I might. It wont be arch though. If want something like arch I might as well go back to slackware.
I approve this message.
Devuan. After bsds.
Been using Kubuntu for 7 years now, after having previously used Ubuntu, Debian and Gentoo.
Not sure if that means Kubuntu belongs on the "Plateau of Sustainability" or if I'm just permanently stuck at "trauma-induced return to Ubuntu," LOL
Almost there. I’m on AlmaLinux Atomic Desktop GNOME. It’s freaking sweet. The main thing that kept me from an ultra-stable distro for the longest time was the lack of user packages, but now with Flatpak and Brew, it’s pretty nice. No more distro-hopping for me.
I've fallen down the rabbit hole of a lot of Debian based distro's. But I eventually settled on Ubuntu for my desktops and Debian stable for my servers. Because I like some mainstream support and also like to follow the KISS principle.
This is about my distro hopping journey. (kinda freaky honestly) Skipping the Red Hat CD's from compusa and some other fun times over the past 20 years ago or so.
-LMDE is my keep going back to distro if I need it to just get out of the way, but have more creature comforts than vanilla debian. Cinnamon is great, it's kde without the issues for me. The driver manager is excellent and just everything from the mint utilities, themes, and polish are lovely.
-MX/void/antix...I've never had the patience to learn not systemd. These are rad, I love the older school window managers and the light weight indie vibe. Maybe I'll stop being lazy and keep screwing with them in vm's and actually learn other init's.
-Manjaro, I wanted to love you so fucking bad, I tried to more than twice and you were a massive disappointment each time. (if it's working for you, cool. But you should really just look at EndeavourOS/Cachy OS, you'll have a way better time)
-Did the Arch from scratch thing. Just to do it. btw, I ran Arch.
-Endeavour/CachyOS are amazing and you'll have a good time for the most part. More complete experience than doing it yourself with much less effort.
-Fedora, ohh fedora. We've wanted to love you forever and ever. Going back to running linux as a Daily driver a few years ago, when I re-visited fedora it was exactly as this picture describes. Ironically, I just installed fedora, replacing cachyos last night. I spent the time to research and translate my arch notes into fedora and so far I'm pretty happy. Bit more fiddling out of the box than the derivative distros obviously. Gaming performance is what I expected once we got settled in and I haven't run into any show stoppers yet.
It really doesn't matter what distro you run. As long as you can install and run the software you need, and interact with it in a way that makes since to you, then have fun. It's your computer.
As a GURU enjoyer/maintainer, I conclude to be on the far right of that graph
Been using Debian for like 3 years now. No intent of distro hopping.
I used Fedora for a year or two. Had some issues. Had a USB stick laying around with the latest version Mint. So just installed that instead. Both options are good, but Mint just worked perfectly out of the box. No Nvidia driver stuff either. I don't have time to fix my OS, well.. I don't prioritise it. I know how, I just don't want to.
Im using Debian but I’m definitely at the end of the downward path of the first spike
Fedora atomic I'm galactic mirror levels of plateau
Started with Redhat 35 years ago, moved to Suse, Gentoo and then all kinds of Ubuntu. Now with Mint but will soon leave for KDE Neon.
The only constant in life is change..
Plateau of Sustainability.
Started on Storm Linux, went to Slackware, and then Ubuntu. Did my time in the Arch Valley of Despair, along with a little Manjaro. Even tried Debian for a bit. Went openSUSE for a few years and then moved to Fedora last year and stuck there since.
I think everyone should use whatever they like. Its ok to share experiences, and have expectations.
I use Arch (btw) on my desktop (EOS, but why reinstall arch, basically a same thing, especially cos I installed headless, and installed/configured my tilling environment) Never had issue with Gaming, even with an Nvidia card. And I have an arch installer pendrive if I need to boot into a live environment to chroot, and I have my config/rice tailored to my workflow.
Mint on my less used laptop. Currently has prue Arch with Hyprland, but I have no time to play with configs, and update regurally. Maybe I should look into Suse or Fedora? As for desktop environment, I would like to have a tilling wm without bar (small screen) but with the eas of full DEs like KDE Plasma... no such thing as far as I know.
Ubuntu or Debian for hosted/selfhosted servers. for stability/reliability ofc.
Gentoo but free from despair
I'm using Ubuntu. Please be kind
I'm at the 2nd Fedora stage but I feel like I skipped too many steps to get there.
When I started most of those weren't even around...
I think I'm at the top of mount stupid, because I'm certainly not competent.
I started with Linux Mint and daily drove that for a while. Really liked it too. Then I noticed that screen sharing ssssuuucked when playing games, and since Mint's Wayland didn't want to work on my machine, I decided to jump ship.
I'm currently on Nobara (Glorious Eggroll's Fedora flavor) and.. it's just pretty easy to work with.
Or maybe I'm at the know nothing stage, along with PopOS
I will never go back to ubuntu, begrudgingly or not
I'm a tech moron, but I've been on Linux of and on since like 07ish. Full time since 2015ish. Started with Ubuntu way back when, and I've jumped around from distro to distro. I've tried Manjaro, mint, opensuse... God, I can't even tell you what else. I once installed that Miley Cyrus Linux and ran it for like a week as a gag. But from 2015 onward when I went full time I've basically just been in Fedora (including silverblue and Bazzite). I've got Ubuntu running on a mini PC I'm using to set up a server for jellyfin and a few other things. But as far as my daily driver goes, it's almost always fedora. I just fucking love it.
But bear in mind here, I'm a pretty surface level user, so what I love is actually Gnome. Lol
Mint... :)
I had thought of going to Fedora next but I ask myself why !
Where all my cachyOS homes at?
LMDE 💕
The only distro I've ever used is arch.
"Almost bricks their machine" lol
It's not an iphone, breaking the boot sequence won't brick it. But sure, go ahead, lecture everyone else...
I seem to have skipped most of it.
I'm at the stage where I can't decide whether the Debian logo reminds me more of the Sega Dreamcast or Lawry's seasoned salt.
Lol openSuse → Mint → Manjaro→ Garuda so regressing idc
I went Kububtu -> Pop -> Arch with Sway -> Fedora KDE -> Arch again, now with KDE. I like Arch, been using it for years now and no interest of switching.
I went from POPos to manjaro to Garuda, then went to fedora and then went to aurora but rebased to bazziteDX so for me this is REALLY accurate except for the dip
I went directly from ubuntu to arch, and then fedora. My curve was like a 1st order system, without that confidence overshoot. However, I don't feel like competent today, neither I have confidence in my skills.
I mean I primarily use arch and would confidently call myself an actual expert. I do use debian for servers tho. So maybe I'm nearing the slope of enlightenment?
I'm at the Kali Linux peak but at least I'm smart enough to know that I don't have the capability to do the social engineering aspect so I'm just gonna backtrack to Ubuntu and tie myself to the terminal and actually learn Linux.
I've been in arch for like +2 years, I update every 3 weeks if I feel like it, it just works. If it doesn't I update and it again just works. If the update breaks anything (never happened) I have backups of the last 5 updates and the last 5 days via brtfs.
Idk, i can't believe people crash their PC unless they do stupid stuff. And if you do stupid stuff, the distro doesn't matter. I started in Ubuntu/debian and managed to brick both of those several times. Then went back to windows until I went to arch after my CS major and learning to not do stupid shit, and zero problems since.
Just leaving the valley of despair, i suppose?
Started at low for 6 months , then I travelled to the valley of despair.
I lost my mind and stayed there for a long time. 1 year? 3 years? who are you? who am i? (send help plz)
A traveller names Fedora rescued me. Now I am further down on that curve: Fedora silverblue.
I've been using linux off and on for almost 20 years, though only did a full transition to linux for everything about two years ago. I use debian for the servers in my homelab and Fedora on all my other computers.
Something tells me this chart is based on an external assessment of competence/confidence not a self-assessment, because according to the chart I should be a guru, but in actuality I know nothing.
Open me SUSE gang ftw!
But let's just all be dapper tuxedo fiends! <3
(Ngl tho, for myself at my advanced millennial old age & jaded heart/brainhole I would only ever consider the three on the right for my desktop, and Debian ofc for servers/VMs)
Fedora ❤️
I use Fedora and openSUSE but I’m not sure if this graph is taking the piss.
I think it's just made by someone who loves RPM. Couldn't quite make themselves place Debian in the enlightened group.
This accurately traces my evolution...
These days I run Raspbian/Debian on my Pi servers and Fedora everywhere else
Rare FerenOS shiny
If I'm using Rocky 10 for my personal laptop did I stray so far off the chart?
I even have the latest Firefox and emacs running on it!
I jumped straight from know nothing to valley of despair
Started with slackware, moved to RHL, worked on OL while suffering SuSE for UL and moved to RHEL.
The only intersect between me and 33 years of Linux is the darkest times groveling through the over-engineered frailty of SuSE while working on UL.
None of the rest even have a mention here
Nice chart?.~
Bazzite / Tumbleweed on different machines, still Ubuntu for homeservers.
Why are all my Linux distros on the first parts of the line?????
Also, I love openSUSE. But then I started playing around and installing other distros to test them and can't get openSUSE to install. No matter how I try to install it, soon as I select to install, it gives me some out of memory error followed by a kernel crash. I'm just a registry hive with big dreams of a better OS!
i followed it until kali and then i fell into the pit of despair wich is were i am now because i learnded gentoo
uuuuh I'm all over that curve. Never had Pop! Manjaro, Kali, MX or Gentoo or whatever that birdy is. Every other Distro: yeah and not in that curves arrangement.
Probably the slope of enlightment.
I do still have Gentoo installed. Planned to daily drive Gentoo, and use Bazzite for gaming on the weekends, but I'm switching back to Gentoo less and less now a days, and just daily driving Bazzite now.
Bazzite/bluefin so Fedora silverblue 😂
Half asleep. Facebook is peak enlightenment? Wtf?
Slightly more awake. Oh it's Fedora, not a half baked Facebook icon.
Goes back to sleep. Small light blinking on the Debian laptop asleep next to my bed.
I am at least at step 2
Why does nobody include Artix in þese?
Cause systemd is pretty amazing 😎
<Jumps behind cover>
They're off the chart.
Used Debian growing up, and now I've recently moved to Fedora the last couple years because I need the new flashy GNOME GUI. Yes, my younger self was more mature.
Definitly a minty
But with asperations of a suse
I'm on garuda so i guess at the start on that. Already been through the valley of despair though, went back to windows and it sucked so i went right back on garuda, which has been working since.
Kubuntu wins.
I've bricked my installation just by logging into root in openSUSE. I am not touching this shit again. I love my arch
The response to this needsneeds the Jedi bell curve where it starts with mint and ends with mint.. 'mint just works'
I have Mint on my laptop, manage Ubuntu Servers at work, run Debian on my home servers, have a working LFS build on my old pc, but use Windows on my main desktop. Where am I on the chart?
Im over the shop.
Started with Fedora went to Debian, then Ubuntu, back the Debian, now looking at CachyOS (arch)
I abandoned SuSE about a decade ago. There were more than enough reasons to do so. I would not put it anywhere close to "competence".
Kubuntu on my desktop, Debian on my server, postmarketOS on my phone. Where do I fit?
Plotting a route to the peak of mount stupid, I suppose.
I've needed to change my computer within the next six months for the last five years, and the plan is to try out NixOS, because as a programmer it looks like a reasonable kind of OS, despite all the warnings to the contrary (shame it's Linux and not BSD, though... the more I learn about Linux and BSD, the more reasonable BSD looks).
I haven't significantly used Linux since I was studying over two decades ago, and I'm pretty certain the last time I set up a Linux system it was Slackware.
My plan is to read the allegedly insufficient documentation and try to figure it out from there. 🤷♂️
Wish me luck, I'll certainly need it.
I was using Ubuntu and Linux Mint more than a decade ago, then I switched to Debian, so I guess I skipped most of this curve, lol.
I started from Ubuntu. Now I use Mint.
I like to think I'm the right-most Fedora, but some days I'm for sure the other Fedora.
I used Ubuntu and Mint ages ago, used Fedora when I switched to Linux full time a few years ago, and now I'm on Garuda. Basically, I'm aware of "The Valley of Despair" but refuse to enter it. I'm perfectly happy letting distro maintainers do most of the hard work. I have very little interest in raw dogging Arch, but Arch-based distros that put everything together in a nice package are great!
Somewhere just past the "trauma induced return to ubuntu"
God damn that chart is accurate though.
Ive only been using linux for a few months and still dont feel confident that I know what im doing except when the gui can do a thing intuitively, so probably that beginning stage, except the distro Ive been using (ZorinOS) isnt on here. I think its based on Ubuntu tho so maybe that covers it idk. Been thinking about trying a different distro to see if its any better but reinstalling all my stuff again sounds like a hassle so I might just stick with the setup I have for awhile longer.
It's possible to keep all your binaries and config files on a separate partition and mount them in the root directory to be used with multiple distros. I'm not sure how well this would work if you're switching to a very different distro though. I haven't tried this, so it may be a very bad idea. I know it's possible though.
why is there a Facebook distro twice in here?
Out of curiosity, where on this curve lies "20k lines of Nix config"? (Asking for a friend 👀)
SUSE is German Ubuntu, change my mind.
i use nix so i'm of the chart! did not have a system break in a year even when on unstable
Dang I think I ahve multiple personality disorder then! I use Arch, Debian and Bazzite. I feel all stretched out now!
@voodooattack no, guru will create own distro
so am at CachyOS (i will say for EndeavourOS cause its also based on Arch,installed on my gaming rig) and Debian + Armbian (on my PI5)
LFS where?
I mean, I use kubuntu but I also have installed arch and have fucked around with parts of my installation in strange ways, so probably somewhere on the slopes of mt stupid.
fedora the 2nd time
Guess I'm still waiting for something traumatic to get me back to kubuntu then xD
I'm not at opensuse level but I already use opensuse cause opensuse default stack saves my ass a lot even if it's a bit annoying since it doesn't have everything
If you replace the Manjaro icons with POP OS icons that’s where I am at in the middle just after the valley - also running dual booting along with EOS.
I am though at the point of my distro hopping that I want to try out vanilla Debian.
My initial POP install from almost 3 years ago I still the samme on my Lenovo P51 laptop. Pretty happy about it.
One thing is clear. I love Linux and will never go back, coming from 14 years of MacOS, and windows before that.
This is quite an accurate meme. I wouldn't call myself a guru, but I'm at the openSUSE stage (Tumbleweed ftw).
It just strikes the perfect balance of the things I care about most.
I started with FreeBSD, Fedora, and Debian, and was comfortable on all three. I've run OpenSolaris and NetBSD in the past too. I experimented with Nix OS recently but decided it wasn't my style. I currently have machines with Manjaro and various Ubuntu distros, Windows and Mac OS.
Where do I fit on your scale?
Now I am intrigued. Where on that line would you place nix?
Mint and Arch. Two lowest parts of the graph... Yeah, that tracks.
Well I use arch for one of my computers and Debian for all my homelab servers, so I guess I'm at both minimum and near maximum confidence simultaneously.
This is pretty accurate, but I skipped MX and only recently took a look at it. Why is it there on the line? So far it seems like the perfect Distro to customize and lockdown for old people low on tech literacy to use.
I think for me the wave has more peaks and valleys.
I get to the last stage of good knowledge and decent confidence but then something new comes and I feel I'm ready for punishment again.
My first Valley of despair was Gentoo. 6 months of constantly compiling stuff and rarely using the computer for anything else. But a bit before that it was Fedora. In those early days, updates would continuously break my system.
In that first round I finally settled for Mint for years. After years of stable Linux Mint, I found my self with time and curious for Arch. And yes, that became the new l valley of despair. But eventually my stable instance.
But new things come and Wayland and new sound systems replaced what I had in my installation. Arch was again the valley of despair. And moved to Fedora, which is as stable as stable can be. I was traveling for the last two years so, no time to mess around.
Now back to arch trying to figure out the Wayland/Niri ecosystem. Let's see where I land.
However, in my dual boots I always have a working installation I'm happy with and another which I mess up with.
I'm in the PopOs stage!
I started out with Slackware, then Mandrake, then I went to Suse, then to Ubuntu, to Arch and then I sadly had to go back to Windows for work. But I have a SteamOS device for myself.
Manjaro with no desktop environment, only sway
Linux mint for less than a month. Cut me some slack!
Facts on Suse there
OpenSUSE :)
Can confirm been through it all, except I took a rough start with Manjaro, then straight to Fedora, then all according to the graph. Just this year ditched Endeavour and Debian in favor of OpenSUSE - loving it so far!
- Mint
- OpenSUSE
- Kubuntu
- Kubuntu + CachyOS (two computers)
- Fedora or OpenSUSE + CachyOS (Distrohop pending but undecided).
Rolling releases for life.
Yeah, they somehow added peak stability in rolling releases, what a golden age of not having to do the chores of an upgrade!
Anybody who calls Linux "GNU/Linux" is rightfully at the bottom of both axes