I don't have kids but I still like to wonder about where planes are going
where planes are going
Another one that's not corporate, and doesn't remove planes when someone pays a fee.
ADSB exchange is the go-to
Now is my chance to share a useless fun fact! If there is a V-22 Osprey on the map the icon will change from helicopter mode to plane mode depending on airspeed
That is so cool. I just checked and there's two in plane mode and two in helicopter mode right now.
This is also my preferred flight tracker. It's important to understand how and why this site is available for free, and where the data come from:
- the FAA and others mandate that pretty much all aircraft broadcast ADS-B info automatically on every flight. ADS-B is an international standard for aircraft data to be broadcast for the purpose of conspicuous ID, locating, and other info about the craft. Only highly sensitive military flights are exempt, for obvious reasons.
- This particular site merely aggregates data from volunteers who have set up stations. These stations are easy enough to set up that there are enough volunteers to provide continuous, overlapping coverage in most places. If you wanted, you could set up a station of your own (requires just a cheap ~$30USD SDR, an antenna, and a laptop/raspberry pi/etc)
And that SDR is a hobby in and of itself. There are all kinds of interesting transmissions you can receive from around the world.
Oh, yeah, that's a whole rabbit hole that I've been on for 5 years and counting, and I still feel like I know nothing :)
Another one that's not corporate
Isn't it owned by a company called Jetnet?
Justin Ling. (2023-01-27). “The Flight Tracker That Powered ElonJet Just Took a Left Turn”. wired.com. Accessed 2025-10-16. “A major independent flight tracking platform, which has made enemies of the Saudi royal family and Elon Musk, has been sold to a subsidiary of a private equity firm. And its users are furious. ¶ ADS-B Exchange has made headlines in recent months for, as AFP put it, irking “billionaires and baddies.” But in a Wednesday morning press release, aviation intelligence firm Jetnet announced it had acquired the scrappy open source operation for an undisclosed sum.”.
Which is less than fun for a private pilot. The fact someone can lookup my full name and home address from my tail number or ADS-B data doesn't feel good as a privacy advocate. Basically required to beacon all my personal information any time I fly
Thankfully the FAA finally made it easier for individuals to protect their privacy, but it's still pretty minimal
To get to the other side!
Of what? The disk?
Of the spacetime chicken
Some people get easy babys.
And then there are the people who get to be parents of ever-screaming high energy high need children.
Then there are the ones who have an easy baby, wonder what all the fuss is about, and then have a second which is a nightmare. Actual quote from friends of ours who had it that way round - "I understand what you were on about now."
I knew a couple that had four super easy babies in a row. Just delightful, sleeping through the night within a month of birth, no colic, easy like Sunday morning girls. So they went for one more. Had a boy that was the hardest baby in the world. Didn’t sleep through the night till 5, colic, had a nuclear reactors worth of energy in him. They said if that had been their first they never would have had a second.
You never know what you’re going to get. My daughter was ROUGH the first 9 months, hardest thing I’ve ever been through. But then it got a lot easier and every day was better. She’s 15 now and the coolest kid. We had planned to have a second but by the time we could even wrap our heads around it she could talk, so we asked her if she wanted a sibling. She thought about her two best friends, who are brother and sister and fought like mad, and said nah. I didn’t want to go through that first 9 months again so that was that. Really glad we did that, we’ve got such a great bond with the three of us.
Crazy to think someone would actually go "4 isn't enough, let's go for 5".
It’s like playing Russian roulette without spinning the chamber.
I’ve pulled the trigger 4 times already, I must just be lucky so let’s keep pulling that trigger!
That's absolutely mental. Even three easy babies are a handful. Like, really a handful. Going for a fifth is tempting fate too much.
I blame the hormones. There's something about that post-birth period where the hormones not only help bond a mother/parent with their kid and forget about all the trauma and pain they went through with the pregnancy and birth, but it also makes a lot of people want another baby.
A colleague had two and they went for a third and got twins. That was a rough time for him.
It’s child abuse. There is literally not enough time in a day to give each kid the attention they need.
You know that the oldest had to parent the younger ones and will never have kids of their own. For reasons.
My parents were from families of 8 and 7, all but one of those 14 couples had at least 1 kid and only 2 had less than three. Do my anecdotes cancel out your anecdote?
This was my mom. I luckily had my easy babies after the more screamy one, but my mom had 3 kids, said she was always so judgemental of parents with kids throwing tantrums in the store, she knew she was doing something right because we didn't do that, and in her words:
"For my hubris, God sent me Janet "
And she figured out that there are kids who scream in the store no matter what you do.
I know Lemmy is aggressively anti-child for some reason, but parenting was by far the best work I have ever done. Kids are work but such delightful little people.
Also my mom - I didn't remember her being affectionate with us, she did a good job of clothing, feeding, educating us but wasn't ever really, I dunno, Mom - like? I asked her about it once and she said "I don't like little kids " and I was like WTF you had so many kids! And she said "well I like you all NOW, I knew you would grow up and become people."
I decided to stay child free because I know that I would not be the mom that I'd like to have. I do like kids though.
I know Lemmy is aggressively anti-child for some reason
Is it? I've never had a conversation on the topic on here so I truly have no idea, but my general experience with the topic is that people who don't have or want kids (and it's so expensive that plenty of people who do want to have kids can't because they can't afford it) often have their opinion on the subject disregarded, and that that is the root of any hostility towards the parents guilty of the offense.
Basically, the "I don't want kids." "Oh, you will." "No, I won't." "You say that now, but I know better, you will." kind of conversations that end with the parent wondering why the person they were talking to was so angry.
On the flip side, while I might be somewhat dismissive of people who are 18 and think their opinions will never change, I tend to go with, "You might change your mind someday," but am also pretty uninvested in whether some acquaintance or even good friend decides to make a choice that is going to have almost no direct impact on me. I have also been part of more than one conversation on Lemmy where peoplenhave used the term breeder, and I've never seen that used in a positive way.
I have also been part of more than one conversation on Lemmy where people have used the term breeder
Ew, that's 110% some dehumanizing language there. Gross.
The big hostility I see isn't from 18 year olds who don't want kids, it's from 30 year olds being told that they're wrong and they will want kids. I'm with you in the "it doesn't affect me so I don't care whether someone wants kids or not" department, but some of the conversations that I've seen have given off the same vibes as when a former coworker told a young lesbian that we worked with that she "just hadn't had the right dick inside her." That shit ain't okay and I totally get the hostile response people have.
Yeah, a lot of young people change their minds about what they want in life, some older people, too. I kind of hope my kids change their minds but, looking around, I totally get why people would be turned off with bringing more people into this mess. Either way, it's their choice, and I will live with whichever one they make. The same applies for choice of partners.
lol!! I feel that in my soul!! I don’t like kids, especially babies. I joke I barely liked my own. But man, my daughter is just the fucking coolest, every day she got that little bit older and we could have more in depth conversations and do more together. (I know every parent says that, but you know)
I don’t remember having a lot of affection when I was a kid, it was either ignore me and expect me to be perfectly behaved, or intense scrutiny. No in between. So when I had my daughter I wasn’t going to be like that. Lots of hugs and cuddles and always telling her how much I love her exactly how she is.
So babies are like a box of chocolates?
Basically yes.
My friend: "We wouldn't have had three if the third one was first."
my parents wanted three until they had my younger brother. even as a grown up that guy is a handful.
This happened to my family. Our first was all around pretty easy. Our second was absolutely insane. She gave my wife and I PTSD; we felt like abuse victims. She screamed 90% of her whole existence until she was 2. Any noise above a whisper would wake her up. This kid would break all parents. We tried everything to make it easier and literally nothing worked. She is the most intense child I've ever met, and she is cute as all hell. Love her to death, but my god is she difficult and stubborn.
We started watching TV with headphones because we were so scared of waking her up during nap time. Screamed for hours if she woke up, nothing could fix it.
That's why I'm pro abortion. But not after the child's 10th year. That would be unethical.
Silly, you have to phrase it the way new parents do.
Legalize abortion through 129 months.
Come on. They're not people until they're 23.
I always thought labeling the death penalty as post-natal abortions would get the conservatives against it.
Yeah I agree, by the tenth year you know for sure wether that child is an asshole or not.
There is both how easy is the kid and how much support there is around (not just from family and friends but also institutional). And then there is how fulfilling you personally find being “parent”. Honestly, it took me more than I would have wanted to find a parent-other life balance. And I still find the parent life to be a bit limiting at times. While I have friends that dove head first into the parent life apparently seamlessly.
I was a really easy baby. Too easy, actually. Didn’t say a word until I was 4.
Why bother if you can't say much, right?
-- I assume was my item toddler brain's reasoning. Do a few words here and there, lay off for a while, then go in with the sentences.
I have 1 of each. The first is our impossible one. I still get shocked how easy it has been the second time around. Things I used to stress about or cry over how fucked my life is are non existent this time around. Don't get me wrong, a child, even a good one, is a huge amount of work. It's just crazy how different they can be from each other.
We have one of those "major pain in the ass" ones, and sometimes I look at other people's kids and think how boring they are. Love my demon spawn
Mine is crazy when she's awake. But she has slept through the night alone since 6 months old. I have to remind myself when she's awake how much more sleep I have gotten than other parents.
Though she did need to be held for every sleep period up until 5 months old. Some switch flipped. Before that she basically slept every hour on my wives lap or in my baby carrier.
There is no easy babie. Maybe an easier baby.
One must understand that the hormones which motivate breeding instinct in social mammals override all other considerations on a neurochemical level when someone has a baby--if those hormones and emotional systems are working correctly.
(Sometimes they aren't, after all; everyone knows those statistical outlier individuals who stick out like a sore thumb for having no parental instincts.)
If a common-sense-overriding mechanism were not in place to drive reproduction, a species will go extinct.
It's exactly the inability (more like refusal) of most of us to override our base instincts that is going to cause the extinction of not just ourselves, but most complex life on the planet along with us. I say that not just as someone with "no parental instincts," but rather a humble human who actually uses the ability to see further than my nose.
Equally of course, if we use our mighty intellects to override our breeding instincts entirely then we’d arrive at the same extinction rather more quickly.
So you know, damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
Given our current birth rates in the western world I’m less worried about our breeding instincts than our inability to convince everyone that their children should live in a better world than them, apparently that’s the instinct that broke first.
Not really. I'm sure our mighty intellects could have settled on a birth rate somewhere between 25 and 0. There are a lot of numbers in between.
I mean… the developed world has settled on slightly below break even (or very below break even in a few cases). So yes, that did happen
We only settled on a "break even" point now that we're many billions of people over capacity and society and the biosphere are collapsing. We needed to slow down a long time ago.
We are not over capacity at all, this is a fucked up lie propagated by the rich western northern hemisphere people and the rich in general, the wealthiest 10% causes over 50% of the pollution.
That includes lots of Americans and Europeans.
Here is an excellent episode from the climate deniers playbook podcast about this topic. https://pod.link/1694759084/episode/Z2lkOi8vYXJ0MTktZXBpc29kZS1sb2NhdG9yL1YwL3I3WDh5SjhNY3RKY1hab2Rva09pRUxiR0NZYzFoNWsyT3gzcE0wZm5sUk0
We are not over capacity at all
We're in a state of ecological overshoot, defined as a population consuming more resources than its environment can replenish. At its simplest, overshoot is a function of individual consumption x total population.
The Global Footprint Network calculates that we crossed this line in 1971, when both our global population (3.8B) and individual energy consumption (15.8kWh) were far lower than they are today (8.2B and 21.7kWh, respectively). Consider also that population is both a cause and effect of energy consumption.
the wealthiest 10% causes over 50% of the pollution.
You're referring to CO2 emissions here (and it's actually closer to 60%), but there are many other symptoms of overshoot. Habitat loss, species extinctions, overharvesting of resources, and other forms of pollution (industrial, particulate, trash) are huge problems in less wealthy nations. In South America, for example, we've seen a 95% loss of wildlife species over the past 50 years. The planetary boundaries framework is helpful for looking at overshoot more holistically, instead of focusing solely on emissions (although that's important too).
In wealthy nations, populations are declining but consumption is unsustainable. In poorer nations, individual consumption is low but population growth is unsustainable. Only by reducing both do we have a hope of living equitably on this planet.
Wealthy nations decreasing consumption will have a knock on effect on habitat loss in South America for example, where a shit ton of rainforest is being killed to make pastures for beef that's exported.
Poorer nation's peak population estimates are declining every year, as life gets better and child mortality falls population growth lowers everywhere (another racist shit that's spreading that poor nations are reproducing too much, btw).
Energy consumption is more or less useless measure with the rapid rise of renewables, although there are also efforts there to lower that everywhere.
Poorer nation’s peak population estimates are declining every year, as life gets better and child mortality falls population growth lowers everywhere
Yes, that's a good thing.
(another racist shit that’s spreading that poor nations are reproducing too much, btw).
Race doesn't enter into it. If we accept that we crossed into overshoot over 50 years ago, then any birth rate above replacement is ultimately unsustainable.
Energy consumption is more or less useless measure with the rapid rise of renewables, although there are also efforts there to lower that everywhere.
Energy consumption is the measure. It's a direct reflection of the degree to which our lifestyles impact our environment. People seem to have this idea that the only real issue with industrial civilization is that it runs primarily on a fuel that destabilizes our atmosphere, and that if we could simply transition away from this fuel (to solar/wind/nuclear/fusion) we'd be on our way to utopia.
But let's consider what we direct all that energy towards: first, we use it to harvest massive amounts of natural resources, degrading and destroying the environment in the process. (Mining, logging, farming, fishing, etc.) We then transform those natural resources into towns and cities, which pave over and fragment the natural environment in which they're built. We transform them into consumer goods (cars, electronics, plastics, clothing, etc.), the vast majority of which end up as waste in less than a decade. We transform them into all manner of industrial chemicals, many of which end up becoming individual ecological disasters of their own.
Transitioning to a "clean" form of energy does nothing to address what we do with it. Living sustainably requires drastically downscaling our total ecological footprint.
We could feed and clothe every single person on the planet right now with about one third of the resources that we use. We aren't over capacity, we're being murdered by the owners of about 100 companies across the globe that are responsible for 50% of global pollution.
For how long? The current output is unsustainable. Respectfully, you're not seeing the whole picture.
Indefinitely. Overpopulation is a lie that corporations have fed you so you blame the average person for the repercussions of corporate greed. It's the same propaganda campaign they used with littering so you don't blame the companies dumping chemical waste in rivers, and the propaganda about jaywalking that shifted the blame from car companies for lethal pedestrian accidents that eventually saw roads being designed for cars first instead of people. Recycling programs started before we had a realistic way to recycle in order to get people used to the concept for when practical ways to recycle were actually developed, but recycling companies never bothered with that. They just shipped most stuff overseas to landfills in China.
The largest freight ships in the world each individually put out more emissions annually than every car on the planet combined. During the COVID lockdowns, vehicle used dropped dramatically across the globe - by something like 80%. And yet, global emissions barely budged during that time. Because the freighters and factories and all the other things that produce substantially more pollution were still running like normal. The US throws away 50% of the food it produces every year, and most of that waste is from companies and stores throwing away perfectly good food.
Corporations are the biggest factor in climate change and the death of every ecosystem on the planet. But they have reshaped the question and shifted the blame from themselves and the wealthy to the common man.
I'm not saying that we don't have to change how we live, but while us using paper straws instead of plastic is a net good thing for the environment, even if every single person were to switch entirely, it would barely be a drop in the bucket compared to the excessive plastic waste generated by companies through single-use packaging. We need to question why companies are allowed to get away with it, not discuss how we're going to uselessly cull the population so companies can keep doing what they're doing.
Yeah, none of that addresses how we're supposed to feed >8 billion people without modern logistics and farming backed by unsustainable practices and fossil fuel use. Especially with the weather becoming so unstable.
The fastest action that we could take that would have the largest effect is to cut out all the waste that companies get away with. Stuff like using water in California on cash crops unsuitable for the climate and on grass lawns and golf courses, or telling people in Texas to shower less and drink less water because they're using it all in new AI data centers. Stopping practices like that will reduce strain on the system from multiple points by reducing energy and resource consumption both. Couple that with the ever increasing green energy use (solar/wind was cheaper than coal for the first time like 10 years back), better efficiency, and more effective materials and we'll eventually make fossil fuels too expensive to use (legislation would also help big time there). There are sustainable farming practices that have been used for centuries in areas of little farmable land that have been replaced with harmful nitrogen fertilizers shipped and sold from countries like the US. Fast fashion and consumerism, loose regulations around hazardous waste disposal, the list goes on and on.
There's massive amounts of waste in how our society works, and there's tons we can do towards fixing the world without giving up and murdering half the world so the billionaires can keep destroying the rest of it.
Brain: I'd have to be crazy to have a baby...
Biology: No problem!
What's worse to me is that mother's also forget the pain and awfulness of 9 months of pregnancy followed by childbirth, leading to them wanting another child.
It’s honestly not that bad for some mothers. For others it can be horrific.
my sister didnt really have any issues with pregnancy or labor, she said it was pretty easy
Me too but that's the smallest part of parenting, right? I felt so good pregnant, no migraines, insane sex drive, so healthy and it did a lot for my relationship with my body in general. Labor not bad,the baby coming out is terrible but didn't take long, but after that it's a very long road. I did love raising kids, but don't think that has much to do with easy pregnancy.
Maybe im misunderstanding:
Are you saying that there necessarily exists for all not extinct species of social mammals a "common-sense-overriding mechanism"?
There's a reason bustin makes me feel good
There necessarily exists in all mammals (and also some other species as well such as several speeches of birds) a mechanism that will override all other motivators up to and including common sense if the specimen in question even manifests the feature of common sense in the first place.
Meh. My wife and I had kids based upon our own thoughts of how we wanted our life to go, not based upon some reproduction drive. The sex drive is a totally different thing, but there was no urge and pull to have kids for us.
We've had three kids and it's been an incredible experience with very few downsides and massive upsides. I was not a "kid person" before having kids, but IMO it's one of the peek good experiences in life.
I didn't really want kids, but my wife did, so we compromised and had 6.
Jokes aside I found it super fulfilling, I had struggled a lot with depression and feeling like everything was pointless, but raising kids gives me a purpose and makes mudane stuff like work feel meaningful. I definitely get what the comic is talking about, it's rough a lot of the time, but it was what I unexpectedly needed in my life.
6???
Yep, 6. After you have several it's kinda like "how much harder could it be to have another?"
We had the same thought with our cats and ended up with five. Then we realized that if you're unlucky it can get really unsustainable really quickly. For example if you have one cat and it develops 3 problems you have 3 problems to deal with. Five cats and each develop 3 problems...yeah you now have 15 problems to keep up with (vet bills, messed to clean up, fights to break up etc etc.).
I can't imagine juggling six kids. Props to you all for being able to keep up with that.
Yeah there's always a risk of getting a really hard to handle kid/cat. Some kids are just at easy, but others aren't. There's also a risk of suddenly have twins or triplets and ending up extra overwhelmed.
That's all I needed to hear :D
but raising kids gives me a purpose
Ugh, this makes me shudder. It just sounds like "I've eagerly embraced my role as part of a procreation machine".
I guess it's necessary that some people become parents, in order to keep humanity going. And, it's better if those people are doing it willingly rather than reluctantly. But, it just sounds like evolution reached into your brain and turned off some critical faculties in order to make you a more effective procreator.
So is the issue here that they find purpose in giving a part of themselves to another? Why police where a person finds purpose, if this so happens to be where it is?
The issue is that their brain appears to have been damaged by becoming a parent.
Why do you denigrate a happy and successful person?
I'm not denigrating them, just the brain damage that becoming a parent has done to them.
Humans were never meant to take care of babies as couples or alone.
Research suggests that given the tradeoffs of our evolutionary path, we had to shift towards a collective parenting (call it tribe, clan, extended family, etc.)
The modern "individualization" of the person is what has convinced us that such parenting form is "normal" and bearable, and that if you feel overwhelmed, there is something wrong with you.
Parent of 1.5y here.
Without grandparents in picture I would go crazy.
I dont know where i heard it, but "children should not have only 2 parents". Meaning the grandparents, uncles, everyone else should parent the child somewhat.
The cliché quote is "it takes a village to raise a child" and I agree. In Western nuclear family culture, that "village" has largely been forgotten.
Most people who are "childfree", or even anti-natalist, don't hate children. In a more cooperative society, many would definitely slot into that mentor/cool adult role; myself included.
Doesn't Ruth know you can reuse the same glass instead of getting a new glass every time you want more wine
Yeah, but that makes it much more difficult for the artist to show you shes drunk.
That's called a creative challenge
Oh I assume that was at a bar or something.
Oh yeah maybe
Father for 12 years here, never have I ever said anything even remotely close of this sort to any my non kids / single friends, is it an American thing?
American father here. Not as far as I know. I tell folks don't have kids unless you're 100% sure. Even then, get a pet first. I love my kid. But boy, do I sure believe folks should get all sorts of tests before they decide now.
Kids are hard man, especially if you didn't have a good example growing up.
I hear you man, I was just always curious how often actually the issue comes up in a normal chill time with friends or even in a normal conversation with coworkers, unless people ask me specifically for advice, or ask about my kids, it's not something that just comes up naturally...I'm here aren't I? Trying to enjoy my time with you, nothing more, If I wanted to air out my frustrations, there's definitely a time and a place
it helps to be enslaved to a system that forces you to spend an average of 8 hours a day working only to be classified as part time while getting no health benefits whatsoever despite there being essentially no government healthcare
*I'm including excessive commute and non-paid work as "working"
It's a self-marketing/preservation thing.
When the kids are infants, the parents are sleep deprived and miserable at times, we they get such a seretonin boost from the baby factor so they don't kill them (yay evolution). They advocate for others to have kids because it feels so great.
When they hit their slightly difficult years, that seretonin boost starts to drop, work/life balance becomes harder, financial hardship starts to hit as they need to feed them more and provide them outside activities. They still take pride in their kids, but need to tell everyone how awesome it is, but they especially need to tell themselves.
When they hit their teens, they're now providing adult prices for things. Cars, Insurance. There's little money left and little disillusion. If they had the kids late in life, their earning potential will end up dropping just as the kids leave home making bucket list plans harder to reach.
It's worse in the US because we have shitty work/life balance and almost total lack of public transportation / affordable heathcare.
The childless fare better and live more comfortably.
And we wonder why populations are in decline.
I’ve heard similar from people, usually the “you’ll change your mind when you find the right person”. I am from the US.
The worst was a conversation I had with coworkers. I mentioned I didn’t want kids because it would be really hard on my body to be pregnant after a near fatal car crash (back broken and lost a major organ). One gal said she thinks all women should have a baby. So I said, if I change my mind I can always adopt. She said “I think all women should have their own baby, it makes you a real woman. Adopting isn’t the same as having your own, there is not the same level of love there”. Worst part, she said this in front of another coworker who was adopted from a not great situation into a very loving and supportive family.
She was a misogynistic asshat about other things too.
Wow, that's just messed up, never really understood why people don't just mind their own business, even if you 100% in great health and decided to not have kids, it's absolutely still your own decision...why should you or anyone if that matters be judged for it.
I 100% agree with you. I’m extremely happy for friends who want and have kids and I’m extremely happy for friends who don’t want and don’t have kids. I do not keep people like her in my personal life and I was so happy when I switched teams.
She was very much into, you can only be a Real Womantm if you follow these guidelines:
- Make babies from your own body
- Marry a man
- Have long hair (she was even weirder about this part)
She would always say weird shit like that when looking directly at me; an unwed by choice, childless by choice, woman with a mohawk. She was just a bitter dick about a lot of stuff and big mess. In my experience, stuff like that usually comes from people who are generally unhappy with something in their own life, thankfully it’s not a common occurrence.
Maybe it's cause they don't get as much time off work to care for their kids as Europeans do?
It's a childless person thing. Very much an outsider "I only see my friends when they're looking for time out" perspective.
If you want to see this in spades, you can go through the back catalog of Penny Arcade. Pre-kids, there was a ton of this "Oh no! Kids are the worst! They get in the way of all my drunken debauchery and time-consuming hobbies." Post-kids, its a tidal wave of "Look at what my son can do! Look at what my daughter is into!" and they're going out of their way to make life as fun and fulfilling as possible for the next generation, because that's what they know they craved at that age.
I'm starting to just be the person they want us to be because screw them. Like you said I've never seen any comic or media rubbing in the face of people with kids like these people without kids love to cry about. It's watching a guy in the cuck chair cry. You put yourself there, quiet down.
The best birth control is other people's children.
I gotta say, it's been the exact opposite for me.
One couple has kids, and everyone passes around the baby making cooing faces. Six months later, half the block is pregnant.
Add in that there's this reflexive desire in a big community of like-aged friends/family for our kids to be friends, too. My wife has eight or nine different cousins who are all her age. And we all had kids within a year or two of one another.
I used to agree but my hormones tell me otherwise.
Clapping ovaries, eh? That's the noise that IT'S BABY-MAKING TIIIIIIME!
That's "klapperende eierstokken" in Dutch, BTW.
Honestly as a father I agree that being a parent is the hardest thing I've done in my life but, I'm also so fucking tired of the "it's hell" joke.
My older dughter is now a teenager with all the trouble that entails and the selfishness she has but still there are no words to describe how much she helps when needed, how hard of a pilar she is to me, how caring and loving she is....
Oh wait there is one...
Family
🥹
Nuclear families are intentionally isolating because it makes women and children more vulnerable.
It really does take a village and we need to get back into living with big extended families.
I would recommend reading the Baby decision to people. It's a very open minded examination, despite what the title might implicate also very open and supportive for childless/childfree mindset. Even touches topics like, just because you like kids, doesn't mean you have to have them, you can teach, volunteer for after school activities, etc.
I think the single most important take away from it is that whether you decide to have kid(s) or not, you give something up.
You also have to go into it responsibly and it's also okay to reevaluate as you go along, e.g. just because you wanted 3 kids before getting married, doesn't mean you can't take a moment to reevaluate after the first if you still want that.
Even touches topics like, just because you like kids, doesn't mean you have to have them, you can teach, volunteer for after school activities, etc.
Plus parenting is a lifelong role. Your kids are gonna be 50 one day, and you'll probably be alive for that.
Personally, I've never liked children (the age group), but I have always admired some of my friends' relationships with their parents, and have always wanted adult children (that is, the relationship) of my own, so I had kids. And although my kids are pretty cool, I still mostly think other people's kids are annoying, and have only softened my views on that front a little bit.
I do wonder if there's ever been a generation or ever will be a generation of kids that grow up and don't go, well at least I'm not going to make the mistakes of my parents.
I think everyone thinks everyone else's kids are annoying because everyone else's kids were brought up by parents that were trying to compensate for different traumas. The hands-off parents are trying to not be helicopter parents, and the helicopter parents are trying to not be absent parents.
In my experience annoying kids are always the fault of the parents.
I ended up garbling my comment on an edit, but I've fixed it now.
I meant to say that I admired the relationships several of my friends had with their parents, and I have always had a pretty good relationship with my own parents, so the idea of parenting has always been based on positive examples and role models in my life.
I'm in a relationship with a woman that seems to have a healthy relationship with with both her mother and father, the two still being married after all these years.
I know that's the way it's supposed to be, but in my experience marriage is a very temporary thing, and rarely happy.
How would you define an annoying kid and what age range are we talking about?
I absolutely adore my kiddo and find meaning in my role as a dad that I did in very few other things I've done in life.
That said, it definitely does change your life in a way where you will not be able to prioritize the things that are just for you anymore. I am both deeply happy to have become a parent and simultaneously very glad that my wife and I waited and got our finances in order and traveled and lived our life as a couple for almost a decade before we decided to be parents. For parents whose story wasn't quite as deliberate, I can imagine a lot of conflicting feelings.
About to be 43 and more grateful every year that my partner and I are childfree. I like hanging out with my friend's kids occasionally, they can be funny tiny humans, but I hit a limit quickly and we invariably share a sigh of relief once we're in the car on our way home.
I'm also grateful that there are folks who love kids and are great, involved parents to them. I'm in awe of my friend's ability to be the mom she is and I appreciate her efforts to better the collective group of humanity by two. Even more grateful that I was free to make a different choice. It takes all kinds, ya know? And kids benefit from unofficial "aunties", I think.
Kids' parents generally benefit from unofficial "aunties" too!
Meh, there’s enough of a biological drive to have children there’s no need to pressure people into it socially. It’s condescending to assume someone else will follow your same “growth” trajectory.
evolution has given us a drive to have sex sure enough.
but my impression is that there's not a lot of biological drive to have children per se, as shown by a lack of children the moment that women can actually decide whether to have them.
Some of my women friends have shared that they definitely felt a need/pang/drive to have kids. Not all of them listened based on the other things they decided to do with their lives or their bodies' ability, but it doesn't mean the feeling isn't there. I wouldn't conclude from my anecdotal information that that drive extends to all women, but I would guess that many women feel it given how prevalent the discussion is.
The choice of whether to have kids at all is important, but doesn't rule out the presence of some evolutionary biological drive. Although, it's possible it's not some genetic instinct and is instead some cultural thing that becomes more powerful during certain hormonal shifts that occur across a woman's life cycle. I've never studied such things, but I'm open to different possibilities.
I'm not sure it would only apply to women. Never had much of a parental drive myself but I met several men, both friends and partners, who wanted children very much.
Maybe it's different somehow, I wouldn't know, but something's definitely there.
True. I didn't have that drive, but my wife did. I'm very happy I have children, but I didn't feel compelled.
It’s probably difficult to prove that it’s genetic but at least anecdotally the biological clock is a thing.
And there are societies that exist today with relatively young first birth ages. But this is impossible to determine how much genetics vs culture contribute.
Often it's more about validating your own situation unfortunately
Oh I accept that it feels like a very normal thing to say. It’s just that we should avoid acting upon them.
Naw, kids are great fun
I like kids but I do not want my own.
I think people should be OK with other people making their own choices.
Telling someone to "grow up and have kids" like in the comic is really shitty just like how telling someone they made a mistake by having kids would be.
Idk why the argument is "everyone should have kids or nobody should have kids. "
I feel like the internet has ruined many people's tolerance for ambiguity or difference.
With a statement like that, there's no middle ground. Either you're a unicorn of a parent who can deal with it all or you're leaving someone else with most of the burden.
... so tell us, precious, which is it?
"skiing is great fun"
With a statement like that, there's no middle ground. You must be a one in a million natural athlete.
Just because it's fun doesn't mean it isn't work and you don't fall down many many times.
"deal with it all" is the falling on your behind repeatedly and not being discouraged by it. If that requires being a one in a million athlete, sure, that's what I'm saying.
Things can be fun and difficult. Just ask any athlete. It can be fun but requires work and practice.
People who find difficult things fun are unicorns in my book.
You play video games?
Are we really going to compare video game "difficult" with real life "difficult"?
What absolute nonsense, plenty of people like to challenge themselves.
Maybe I'm just old and neurodivergent but going out and partying sounds like a miserable time to me. I'd take changing diapers and being a human jungle gym for my kid any day.
I'm also old and neurodivergent. Kids sound as much a nightmare as going out and partying.
when I see a cute baby smile at me, its like a sims moodlet. "I need one of those. Why dont I have one of those". After 24 ish hours I remember babysitting and caring for my sibling and cousin, and quickly go back to normal. 30 and childless.
Real talk. I said the exact same thing and didn't plan to have kids. My wife and I didn't have kids until she was 36.
Babysitting a cousin is not the same as parenting your own kin. It's completely different.
Depends heavily on how indepth that "babysitting is". When that Abby sitting involves cooking two meals a day for them, taking them two and from school, changing their diapers at 3am and taking them to the doctor.
All because their parents are too drunk and at the bar instead of home... Well
I fucking babysat my cousins and it was more raising them then anything their parents did
It's not about what you do that makes the difference. It's just having your kin changes the dynamics.
With my son, I'm imprinting him with everything and teaching him how I want to. The random tasks(like diapers, feeding, etc) that needs to be done is just a requirement for this imprinting.
My entire life's from how I was raised when I was a kid to adulthood is solely on my shoulders. Every decision is no longer about me. It's for them. My entire life's purpose is to have my kids grow up how I want them to grow up.
With babysitting someone else's kid, it's just a task. A snippet, a small part of the entire process.
At 47 and my wife recently birthing our 2nd child, my only regret is not having kids sooner.
I feel like this cartoon was drawn by someone who doesn't have kids. Or didn't want them but got them.
Be fulfilled without kids or with them. Don't be fulfilled by judging those who have chosen different from you.
My interpretation of this comic was that it is making fun of the parts of having a kid that they don't tell you about, not that it was being judgemental towards anyone.
Sure, it is being hyperbolic, but hyperbole is common feature of humor.
Offtopic, but after reading these comments, I'm so glad I first opened Lemmy today rather than Reddit. Thoughtful, varied discussion, instead of sifting through a ton of samey "joke" comments to maybe (if ever) find some nugget of humanistic or original thought, or get bored, doomscrolling and lose hope in humanity.
I just love this community, thank you all for being here.
No shit. Raising kids is an act of love and sacrifice.
If you aren't willing to do this, do NOT have kids!
There's definitely this strain of "Why would I ever want to sacrifice for anyone else? Who could possibly deserve that much love?" coming off these comic artists and their readership.
It reeks of alienation and despair. Like, that final panel of the comic might as well be of the artist themself. Alone, on a roof, half conscious, rings under the eyes - that's more than a few people I knew back in college.
I like this comic because it highlights my consistent experience with arrogant parents acting as though I’m not truly mature or successful because I haven’t procreated.
That's not what the comic shows at all. It ends with a solitary burned out person pinning for the past.
There is no subtext of alienation or despair in my enjoyment.
Presumably because you're not the one who wrote the cartoon.
The first two panels show the female character pretentiously telling an adult male
With the implication that it's a lie, and the truth is in the fourth panel, yes.
You referred to the comic AND it’s readers
If you're sympathizing with the artist, you're buying into this dystopian fantasy of how the artist's burned out friend "really feels", yes.
But this is coming from inside the artist's brain.
I would be absolutely destroyed if I had dumb little copy of me that I was required to take care of.
I understand now why my dad was so distant and eventually went away.
Having an insane mother helps, too.
<3 sending love friendo
When I was starting high school and going through registration with my mom, we were standing in line behind another kid and his mom that I knew pretty well from middle school.
My mom starts talking to his mom about how she now has one child each in elementary, middle school, and high school this year, and it's going to be overwhelming.
What my mom didn't know is that she was talking to the mom of a legendary family of like seven kids. The guy I went to school with was the second youngest of the bunch. In elementary school, one of his older brothers stopped by the class and talked about his time in boot camp. We had middle aged teachers who had gone to school with his older siblings. My mom did not pick her battle well on that one.
Christ this is dark. I'm not a parent and I feel like this.
The Internet used to be such a neat place. Why is it so shit ever since like 2020? Or is that just the whole world? Since 2017 maybe.
I had a thought yesterday: it sucks that after you die, you can't come back. AND that time just keeps flowing for everybody else after you're gone. What a great gift to be alive, at all, though. Why do some people feel the need to make it as shitty as possible for others?
The Internet used to be such a neat place.
You just used to be younger and hanging out in forums with other younger people, with brighter and more optimistic outlooks.
Now you're discovering the Boomer Web, where everyone bitches and whines and despairs and complains.
I had a thought yesterday: it sucks that after you die, you can’t come back. AND that time just keeps flowing for everybody else after you’re gone.
You're still here. We don't go anywhere when we die. We return to the soil and become integrated into something new. Our memories fade away, but we're still the same raw dough we sprang from. And our planet is rich with life. The thing that is you will become a million other things that are someone, in time. And they'll become a million million other things. And on and on, into eternity.
Why do some people feel the need to make it as shitty as possible for others?
Brain chemicals, mostly.
I had a thought yesterday: it sucks that after you die, you can't come back. AND that time just keeps flowing for everybody else after you're gone. What a great gift to be alive, at all, though.
That is a profound thought which many people don't independently get to.
I honestly did not get to it independently either. It took reading a a lot on Indigineous precepts and accepting time as cyclical rather than linear to see life that way. Modern life treats existence like there's a progress bar over our heads and I think many people derive a sense of frustration with the world from that.
That doesn't mean there isn't room for self improvement. I just think its important not to have a crabs in a bucket mentality because thst is harmful to oneself and others.
There are other issues at play here, wage slavery and the despair that brings on, but the goal should be to escape that which limits our world view.
As a parent of two I really enjoy talking about this. It's such a complex, nuanced topic. Yeah you sacrifice a lot, sleep, time, sanity, but you kinda unlock a whole new level of your life, in your mind. I wouldn't want to change it back, ever.
Just yesterday I read about cultural neoteny. Our society is so safe, that people don't have to mentally mature to full grown adults anymore. No famine, no war, no oppression, no violence to deal with (yet). We can stay teenagers forever, being unable to deal with criticism, lacking resilience, unwilling to take responsibilities, cultivating out sensitivities that then clash with other peoples sensitivity.
Again, this is not the place for a long conversations, but I can't help but feel that the constant joke "look at those stupid parents giving up their lifes" may be a part of that. There is some truth to it though. I am a little burned out, I may have dropped some life goals along the way. But then again, what's the purpose of being alive?
But then again, what’s the purpose of being alive?
Apparently dragging people from peaceful nonexistence into existence without their consent so that during their lifetime they will endure a lot of suffering, admittedly experiencing some transient joys along the way but doomed to one day have to undergo the agony of getting sick and dying, after which everything that happened during their life will have been meaningless, given that one day (in the near or far future) there will be no humans left and so even how their life affected other people will have been for naught?
I mean, that does not seem like a great life purpose to me, but you do you I guess?
dragging people from peaceful nonexistence into existence without their consent
The male body gave consent to copy itself before ejaculating and the female body also consented to copy itself. Both copies agreed to merge and create a new copy —the child. So technically, we did consent to being born. (Except when the mother has been raped, or throughout the pregnancy was denied abortion because of some stupid law — a timeframe allowed for one party to withdraw that consent).
Did you used to go places?
Maybe it's time to have kids and share the misery
I only sacrificed sleep a bit in the first 3 years until both my kids were sleeping through the night. In no time they are school age, then off to university. The people I often see represented by the women in the comic are those who are married to their jobs, not parents. If you don't want kids, fine, don't have them but many parents think their kids are one of the best parts of their lives. Things that are the most worthwhile in your life often take a bit of work or challenge.
We got the second kid when the first one was almost 4. It was pretty rough, we where just getting back our sleep, and went in 2+ years of irregular sleep. She is 2 and a half now and thankfully sleep is getting much better.
If you have a kid and thinking about a second one, I would recommend don't wait 3+ years, or wait 5+ years so you have a bit of time to recover.
Well this is a horrifying thread to read 3 months away from our first making an appearance
Its all true. The bags under the eyes. The stress. The moving your life into the closet. The rationing of self-care.
But the important thing is, it's still the greatest joy. Babies take everything from you, and demand more, but its still a fucking bargain.
Edit - also congratulations and good luck!
I got to experience this with my brother, without the having a wife and child part.
Be careful. Life as an auntie/uncle can be a gateway to the kind of love and joy some folks around here consider... unnatural.
Pretty soon you're buying them presents, taking them to the zoo, and giving up on late night drinking and watching old movies from a tiny TV at a shady bar, because you're more invested in the kid's soccer practice the next day. I know, I know, it sounds horrifyingly bleak. But it could happen to you!!!
You will be tired. But you'll also be fulfilled in a way that nothing else in life can truly approximate.
There will be sleepless nights but your child will also imbue many of your wakeful hours with a joy you've never had before.
If you really open your mind and see the world from their perspective, you'll come to appreciate things you've long taken for granted.
The first few months are pretty rote. Feed, diaper, nap every 2-3 hours. There's not a lot of feedback. There's still joy in the comfort you bring to them but man is it exhausting.
Eventually.. that first time they smile at you or babble at you... it will stay with you. There are many facets to love but the love you'll feel in that moment will be like nothing else you've experienced. Its like seeing the sun rise for the first time.
Father of 18 months. Wouldn't change a thing.
He could also regret everything. Spiral into depression and find he is not fulfilled at all.
Leading to a total life spiral.
Iv had more then one friend better spouted off the whole. You'll be fulfilled in ways you don't know nonsense. Only for them to take their own f****** life because they couldn't handle it leaving themselves dead their wife alone and their child fatherless.
Really f****** sick and tired of people claiming just absolute b******* with no understanding of the person they're talking to.
We have no way to know if he actually will be a good parent if they'll be fulfilled if they'll hate it if they will hate their child if they'll hate themselves if they'll love their child. If they'll love themselves, we don't know them and spouting off. B******* does nothing. It's too complex a topic for anyone myself or yourself to have any real grasp on for someone else. We can only speak for ourselves
So speak for yourself and not others
Some people are amazing parents, it takes talent and compassion, I think you guys will do great, good luck
You're not thinking the long game here!
You don't have babies to be happy, you have babies to indoctrinate them into believing your bullshit!
You're influencing generations to come! Just think, man! Think!
You're wrong. You have kids to assure your pension and some to pull the plug when you're old and dement.
*singles with babies
Both
Rich people travel too much
It's all they have left to feel fulfilled. As a lower middle class dude that will work until the day I die: I dream of a year or two I can just travel when I'm in my 60s. But I'll probably bail my neice and nephew out of some scam they fell for while paying off some scam my mother fell for on a deep dementia dive on Instagram.
What does middle class even mean? If you can't afford to travel wouldn't that put you firmly within the working class bracket?
May be an American thing, or local. I've seen middle class as working class.
I also dropped out of college before I could get class dynamics beaten into me. Where I'm from you're white collar, blue collar, or no collar.
I wish you this dream travel and both to solve the financial issues. Even if would you travel the whole Asia or Africa in the two-year trip, you would not produce so much pollution as really rich people who have 'city breaks' every weekend by plane, or have 8 holiday a year. I personally know just middle class ladies traveling in group 4 times a year on holiday.
That's what my slightly older sister does. She got into the middle middle class scheme when it existed. She pretended she loved a union electrician and they shared a couple children.
Having a kid will fill that void inside you of "wtf am I doing with my life". At least for me it did, purpose and responsibility made me happy.
"I had no children. I haven’t transmitted the legacy of our misery to any creature"— Machado de Assis (1881)
Being a parent is the best. You wouldn't understand.
I really wouldn't, and I also won't care to.
Then its good you dont have kids. I dont know why this gets turned into a debate so often. If you want kids, have them. If you dont, dont have them.
Damn, people. It aint hard.
That's what she said... which is why she doesn't have any kids.
When did I turn into a woman?
No kids
Men can also not have kids
I know. Im not arguing against her. Im using her comment as a case in point.
At least kids eventually leave, with pets you get to watch them slowly waste away and die in the most expensive ways possible.
Kids can be like that too
Damn... dark.
I mean it is the truth. Bad things can happen to people, and people should put more thought into that before having kids
They get mad because I “don’t have responsibilities” and it’s not a conversation just people shouting at me
basically, the parents who are fulfilled with their kids, versus the ones who probably needed a 1 year course on how to parent before being granted the privilege to have a child.
I say this, as a parent.
I'm not planning to have kids. In fact I have a Dr. appointment today for a vasectomy referral. But if such a class were offered I would 100% take it before having a kid.
I resent your implication that just because I have a great relationship with my kid and I find my family relationships fulfilling that I must know wtf I'm doing.
you resent the fact that someone assumes you're knowledgeable about raising a loving child?
I'll just assume you possess qualities that any good parent should have, like patience, the ability to communicate clearly, etc. . . . . these are the type of things I mean when I mention parental knowledge. People learn these over the course of their lives, so it's likely ingrained in you, not like knowledge you gain from any class.
The funny thing is that I was joking and I am actually HYPER aware of the qualities I model and try to instill in my son.
I guess that's the one benefit of a lifetime of masking.
there are several books available. If you child is healthy, it's actually a pretty easy learning curve; you have time to read chapters based on the age of your child, and newborns are actually pretty ... uninteractive. They slowly develop and you're there to check the milestones they should hit during that time period and help them reach those milestones.
If your child is sick, disabled etc, good fucking luck. also if both parents are working.
I am childfree 33, childfree both by choice and by economic circumstances. I have a intense aversion towards baby's, doesn't mean others shouldn't get them. I used to think that instead of having kids, I could just be the cool uncle that babysits sometime. Turns out I really dislike babys. So, probably should never get my own.
Sometimes I get tempted by the wish, but then I am reminder that I prefer the risk of regretting not having children, then risking regretting having children. And while I do subscribe to the anti-natalist worldview, that only should dictate my actions, not those of other people.
I am very lucky to have a partner who is also childfree by choice.
Whenever someone tells me about their kids I’m like, I’m happy for you, but have you seen literally anything humanity has done for the last half century?
What was that movie about post partum depression and the nannie that comes over to help?
Tully by J reitman (2018)
Is it good? I've had it in the backlog for a while
I found it very good, fascinating, makes you feel a full range of emotions being confronted by such a natural yet heavy human experience.
Skill issue. Kids are really not that hard if you take it seriously like any other job. Traveling is mostly dead though until they turn teen.
My parents took my sister and I to China, Hawaii, Europe, as well as other vacations when I was like 10-14 or something. I knew it wasn't normal when we were doing it, like my friends families weren't doing this, but I didn't realize how unusual it was until much later. I definitely respect them for not leaving us, the kids, out of it, and teaching us how to travel, but man it's crazy to spend that much money on a kid that'll only remember a fraction of the trip at best.
Tangentially, speaking of memory - in China specifically, I remember being kinda swarmed by locals taking selfies with us, as my sister and I were two blond white kids, which isn't an everyday sight there. I still wonder if we're in any photo albums.
Hard disagree. Kids are different, have different needs, and behave differently. Parents also have a wide variety of support structures around them, which also has a huge impact on how difficult raising kids is.
There are people who will struggle to be good parent regardless of other factors, but that is not the only reason raising kids might be hard. I'm glad you haven't had some of the struggles other people have, but you sound like the guy born on third who thought he got a home run.
Don't understand your baseball metaphor, not an american.
...yeah, I actually should have left that part off. It was unnecessarily fussy of me, and I apologize for putting that in. I stand by the rest of what I said, but that part was an unnecessary personal attack.
In baseball, you can only score by getting past the opposing team without being tagged with the ball; which usually requires your teammates to keep them busy as you move from one safe base to the next. To start from third (last before scoring) and think you hit a home run is to start out almost done and think you did the whole thing without support.
Again, I apologize for putting that in - we have not had easy kids, and the "skill issue" comment hit a nerve.
i was hell incarnation but my sister was calm and playful. Each kids is a new experience.
Plus we travel nonstop until we were teens. Because we can finally tell mom no. I hate traveling so much now. 2 days road trips one way and forced to do homework in car. Miserable. Don't get me started on planes.
Going to go the opposite way. Kids are fucking easy. Don't listen to these other people. You're literally built to create them against your better judgement for a reason. "ooooOOOOOoOOOOo I don't know if I'll be a good parent" shhhhhh, throw out the condoms. It'll all work out.
pfft. friends with kids have to get public assistance which is constantly reduced and taken away. I don't have kids but I have a roof over my wife and I's head. For now anyway.