It just keeps getting worse - Firefox to "evolve into a modern AI browser"
6mon 3d ago by feddit.org/u/RmDebArc_5 in technology from www.gamingonlinux.com
Just like Google plan with Chrome, Mozilla aren't sitting still on expanding Firefox into something resembling a web browser but with more AI.
WE. DON'T. WANT. THIS.
Mozilla, for the love of god, stop cramming AI into the browser when the vast majority of your users just want a privacy-respecting browser that works.
I've said it before, and I've said it again: I will not donate any more money to the Mozilla foundation until they stop cramming AI into everything, and you should too.
They might be getting money from google that tells them what to do.
Nah, Google funds them so they can point at them and say they aren't a monopoly, directing what they do would ruin that.
Mozilla's perfectly capable of making dumb decisions on their own, they do that plenty
¿Why not both?
Because google only pays Mozilla because of:
- Maintaining search dominance
- Preventing anti-monopoly scrutiny
They don't want Mozilla to compete in any AI space, because there's already a ton of competition in the AI space given how much money gets thrown around, so they don't benefit from anti-monopoly efforts, and there's so many models that they don't benefit from search dominance in the AI space. They'd much rather have Mozilla stay a non-AI browser while they get to implement AI features and show shareholders that they're "the most advanced" of them all, or that "nobody else is doing it like we do".
There's no real way Mozilla could compete. Google has nothing to fear on that front like the browser front. It's far more likely Mozilla's ultimate intention. Is to integrate Gemini or similar further into the browser than they already have. Mozilla is years late to the circle jerk, and everyone else has partnered up.
I wish you weren't right. I remember old firefox.
I will never forgive.
They are, but that's only for the search engine thing. Unless Google has a seat on the board.
It's for the default search, but it also has the side benefit of ensuring a secondary browser with decent market share that's not Chromium-based they can point to claiming they're not a monopoly.
Google donates to KDE also
Read what the new CEO says, and it doesn't seem as bad. In the interview, he states that they'll be adding AI with options, and since they're not beholden to any one company, the user can choose what is best for them.
My guess: A sidebar chat you can disable, which allows you to pick your provider, and an about:config that let's you customize the URL for local AI.
Would I rather time be devoted elsewhere? Yes. Would this be horrible? Nah.
That being said, I could be totally wrong.
you can sign up to receive updates on our AI Window and be among the first to try it and give us feedback.
I wonder if we all sign up and tell them we don't want it if they would actually listen.
Their statement is "we're incorporating AI into your browser". What "agenda" do you think this author has? Other than informing users?
Mozilla already has limited resources. Using them to incorporate features into their browsers that their users have already made it abundantly clear they do not want, is bad.
That has not at all been our lived experience so far.
Every week it seems like there is a new AI feature snuck in that we have to tell each other about and disable.
The problem is, it's not unobtrusive.
When I right click and I instantly get an option silently added to the list that sends data to an AI model hosted somewhere, which I've accidentally clicked due to muscle memory, it's not good just because there's also the option there to disable it. When I start up my browser after an update and I am instantly given an open sidebar asking me to pick an AI model to use, that's obtrusive and annoying to have to close and disable.
Mozilla has indicated they do not want to make these features opt-in, but opt-out. The majority of Mozilla users do not want these features by default, so the logical option is to make them solely opt-in. But Mozilla isn't doing that. Mozilla is enabling features by default, without consent, then only taking them away when you tell them to stop.
The approach Mozilla is taking is like if you told a guy you weren't interested in dating him, but instead of taking that as a "no." he took it as a "try again with a different pickup line in 2 weeks" and never, ever stopped no matter what you tried. It doesn't matter that you can tell him to go away now if he'll just keep coming back.
Mozilla does not understand consent, and they are violating the consent of their users every time they push an update including AI features that are opted-in by default.
i don't want it either, but AFAIK they're local models so the data didn't go anywhere
They don't use local models yet, at least not for their existing AI chatbot sidebar feature. https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/ai-chatbot
When you use a chatbot, you are agreeing to that provider’s privacy policies and terms of use. Each chatbot provider has their own terms of use and privacy policies. View the privacy policies and terms for providers in Firefox.
Some chatbots are more privacy-respecting than others.
If it's installed and I have to turn it off, then it's intrusive. Don't bullshit me
Is "the vast majority of your users" your display name or something? I have those turned off in my client settings
Every product we build must give people agency in how it works. Privacy, data use, and AI must be clear and understandable. Controls must be simple. AI should always be a choice — something people can easily turn off. People should know why a feature works the way it does and what value they get from it.
Come on, this isn't Reddit, at least skim the article before you start with the performative outrage.
It should be something that people can easily turn ON.
We'll just ignore the fact that the chat bot menu setting randomly appeared after an update. Very opt in. The only way to kill the task it sparks is to go into about:config and kill all the browser.ml.* options.
No one here cares what Firefox says because their actions have already hurt the trust in them.
Do the processes still run even if you toggle the setting off?
Just going through settings was not enough. The process was still running. I don't know which toggle fully killed it because I clicked everything off at once.
Except I literally had to dig through the about: config settings to turn off AI in my browsing experience. So they are already lying
I didn't. So why is that?
Ah yes, the classic:
They must be maliciously lying instead of me using something wrong argument.
Very solid, much sound.
I can flip that around for you: "Ah yes, the classic: the user must be in the wrong, not the organisation with a history of secretly installing an extension nobody asked for".
If it's so easy to "use wrong" then it's badly designed software.
Any articles can be a click bait. The reality is what matters.
I didnt turn on AI in Firefox myself. It just appeared there after an update and was turned on. It is not opt in but an opt out.
It's not needed. Nobody is looking for AI powered shit and they will feel it in their numbers. Why invest the pennies Mozilla can invest in a technology that big monsters are developing with billions and billions of dollars and natural resources? It's not even reasonable, like a Pocket 2.0.
Unfortunate Newsflash:
It's smaller reddit.
The lowest common denominator consumes all. And that denominator includes not being able to read articles or apply critical thought.
Nobody's saying it's mandatory. People don't want their web browsers to be full of bloated AI slop. Why should there be the AI components of Firefox on my hard drive if I'm never going to use them? Why should my web browser be full of low quality features I'll never use? It's enshittification. Not to mention the very quote you're pasting specifies that it's opt-out, not opt-in.
But how could the trolls enrage well meaning people into moving to a less privacy respecting browser if the post wasn't designed for performative outrage?
Few read the articles around here, like any social media. I could come with a headline that Bill Gates proposed using trans people's brains for AI processing, Matrix style, and harvesting the water of the dead ones, a la Dune. Lemmy would eat it up.
Nnnoooooo you dumb bastards
Jfc. The stupidest timeline, I fucking swear.
It's the natural progression of capitalism and market force fundamentalism.
It's a sort of religion.
Ew ew ew.
No one is asking for AI, you weirdos!
I don't think our Lemmy comments are going to reach Googles...I mean Mozilla's boardroom.
Yall saw Microsoft push stupid Copilot on everyone and fail miserably and said, "hold my beer!"
Bros, take the hint! No one wants AI bullshit. Firefox was the goto switch when Google Chrome was using 37 processes and 98% memory for one website... yall are fuckin up!
IT department at my job encourages everyone to use Copilot and try to implement it more... I don't even know WHY I'd do it in the first place
That directive came from them but they didn’t want to issue it. I guarentee you the were told by higher ups to say that.
They claimed it's for "safety" as "microsoft is to be trusted more than OpenAI" oh the irony!
also, not really higher ups to dictate our IT what to use, that makes it even better...
I work in IT with end users who average 45-50 years old. I can tell you where that message came from.
We've got users working with sensitive private information who are starting to use tools like ChatGPT and Gemini because their college kids told them they're helpful for checking writing, or work better than search engines. Our users work remotely and if they decide to take a picture of what they're working on and feed it into an OCR, there's not much we can do to stop it. So we need to provide a sanctioned tool that at least gives us some controls over how data is handled and stored (not that Microsoft provides anything vaguely resembling perfect data transit and analysis into Copilot) so we can try to protect sensitive information and our end users as much as possible. Are we happy about having to deploy AI tools? Not even a little bit. I'd be happier if we all just collectively rolled back a few years. But our options are sanctioned tool and policy or failing audits and here we are.
My take is a little different. If people really want AI they should pay additional cost and AI should be a addon feature on your PC.
Additional Costs -> more powerful AI centered Chips ( as least as possible power consumption ) which can use much much more local fast memory ( imho 256 GB should be in the long term the minimum ).
That enables local AI's to be the solution for privacy and control of long term costs and i guess in 99% local AI's will do the job fine enough.
Sadly noone will be on our side cause they want to put AI Usage / PC Usage overall behind a monthly subscription in the long term.
Right now we are just as always in the phase of making people depending on a technology.
Remote workers have webcams. Set things up so if it seems a camera phone aimed at the screen it takes a shot, sends the event to management they check it and decide wether to fire people for violating policy.
Yeah I don't know about the ethics of that...
MS reps tightening the screw.
Management most likely read their horoscopes in some business blog.
The ai bubble is strong
WTF man, I just want a fucking browser.
Ready for this internet fad to die and go back to stone tablets.
Im not a luddite, I'll still use clay tablets.
I’m also not a luddite, I’ll use pen and paper thank you very much
How gauche - a quill and vellum does the exact same job!
Can I tempt you to join the fountain pen gang? We have shiny nibs and fun coloured inks to match your mood!
Hmmmm, is there sparkly inks? If so then sparkly and shiny is enough to convince me.
Oh yes, some inks are very sparkly.
I said this yesterday lol!
First: Every product we build must give people agency in how it works. Privacy, data use, and AI must be clear and understandable. Controls must be simple. AI should always be a choice — something people can easily turn off. People should know why a feature works the way it does and what value they get from it.
That's a good idea to put first. Of course, like do no evil, priorities change, so we'll need to keep a close eye on this.
Second: our business model must align with trust. We will grow through transparent monetization that people recognize and value.
Transparent is good, but if he things he's going to add value to monetization, he's smoking crack. There's nothing we want from a browser that's not already provided by a plugin.
Third: Firefox will grow from a browser into a broader ecosystem of trusted software. Firefox will remain our anchor. It will evolve into a modern AI browser and support a portfolio of new and trusted software additions.
Nobody wants that. We already had all we wanted from them in trusted software.
Remember the way to disable all AI in Firefox.
about:config
browser.ml.enable -> false
For now...
I don't think anyone actually read the announcement, just the headline. Here was the new CEOs actual first point.
"First: Every product we build must give people agency in how it works. Privacy, data use, and AI must be clear and understandable. Controls must be simple. AI should always be a choice — something people can easily turn off. People should know why a feature works the way it does and what value they get from it."
AI should always be a choice — something people can easily turn
offon. That's how it should be.
I despise AI. I don't want it in my browser. If I want to use AI, I'll go to Mistral or Claude.
You mean the same Claude from Anthropic? The same Anthropic working with Palantir?
And then you are here shitting on Mozilla...
You guys are a joke!
So no text to voice/voice to text, no translation, no ocr, no summarization, no scam detection? These are useful ai features to have in a browser IMO.
Plugins exist. There is no excuse for bloat8ng the browser with these seldom used niche features by default, espexially when they represent 5% if what the AI component is doing and the other 95% are harmful to literally every living thing on the planet.
I dont consider any of those features to be bloat. "Harmful to every living thing on the planet" wtf are you referring to here?
The social and environmental impact of AI training and use is what I'm referring to.
There is only an environmental impact in AI in training in the places that have water issues or use fossil fuels on the grid. Otherwise its the same as any other power use.
Plus model training costs arent relevant to firefox. We dont factor in the power usage for creating the linux kernel when we talk about linux or any other software. There isnt any good reason we should care about 3rd party companies power generation costs. I dont think about how much power the steel plant used to build my car nor should I.
And what say you of the preliminary evidence suggesting that using AI is making people less capable of thinking for themselves, or people becoming emotionally attached to AI girlfriends/boyfriends, or people who killed themselves either intentionally or accidentally by following LLM advice, or the fact that an overwhelmibg majority of companies who made AI a crucial part of their functioning are losing money or going bankrupt? These are part of the social cost and they all point quite strongly towards it being a very bad idea to rely on AI for anything.
evidence suggesting that using AI is making people less capable of thinking for themselves, or people becoming emotionally attached to AI girlfriends/boyfriends, or people who killed themselves either intentionally or accidentally by following LLM advice
This evidence is not well founded and I dont believe this is a real problem. Its the same as the reaction to cellphones even if studies suggested they are bad, we all still use them and dont care.
Pigs don't consider slop to be slop.
none of those features are slop. They are amazingly useful features. Removing them from the hands of average users by putting them behind an extension would make Firefox a much worse option and exclude a ton of people for no reason.
Your opinion is based on nothing and you have no idea what you're talking about. You're just a reactionary.
It should read:
AI should always be opt-in
There was no easy way to turn it off without meddling with about:config. If they were serious and true to their word this would've been be the default from the start.
there is absolutely zero reason to put ai in firefox
Local ML translation was pretty cool
I like the convenience for languages I don't speak, but when I checked it for Hungarian (that I do speak) the results are so much worse than Google Translate or DeepL, basically literal translation word-by-word, often completely losing the meaning and tone of the sentence.
exactly it should be a firefox extension, anyone can install if they want it.
It'd be nice if it integrated with my local ollama instance and let me pick which models I wanted to use on the fly with whatever part of the page I want.
First, there should be a survey on what users actually want, no?
Because if no one wants AI and it's "always a choice", what you really do is waste considerable resources with as the only results, more settings users have to go through before starting using their browsers.
By people he means other CEOs.
Hey tech companies. Consumers do not want more AI, they want less of it. Maybe we just need to get the word out?
They're going to use AI to identify and block ads for me, right? Or let me set a cookie preference and automatically apply that to every page I visit?
That would be rather useful things to have AI for IMHO.
something an adblocker already done, without the unneccsary extra steps.
It ain't that easy, at least with uBlock Origin. The problem is that websites depend on many elements - ones that aren't obvious to the human eye and experience. An AI could potentially analyze all of the content and to where it leads, then remove the undesirable elements, such as trackers. For example, when I am making a payment at an unfamiliar website, I wouldn't know what services are key to a working transaction.
A fair bit of my browsing time is spent on figuring out how to not break a website with my adblocker - which is annoying, error prone, and not as effective as I would like.
I don't know what websites you're using, but default uBlock Origin works completely fine with all the websites I visit, and it doesn't use AI. It just uses blocking rules.
Well no. They not gonna burn ai credits on that, they need it to identify your interests and sell you ads.
So, AI will do the same thing as what light extensions already do, but consuming 4GB of RAM and maxing out CPU load?
Can't wait for ladybird to arrive to leave all this current browser crap behind me.
Remember to donate to open source development, y'all!
Minimum donation to Ladybird is 1k 😭
No, it is not.
Oh, really? Then it's my queue!
Just went quickly though their site and saw only big donations. Should've check deeper.
Thanks for the suggestion. Says on it's site summer 2026 is target for release. Still a while away, I wonder how long we have with Firefox before this takes over...
I've been really enjoying zen.
You should be careful with zen.
The devs made questionable choices in the past.
Care to elaborate?
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43443494
These issues were about a year ago, but I think they are still relevant. The devs don't seem to be very serious about the project and don't respond professionally.
If you want a good fork, use Librewolf.
The idea is nice, but they all trail behind when it comes to updates and that includes security updates. The browser is just the biggest attack vector on my system and I really don't want that bit of software to be outdated.
the browser is just the biggest attack vector on my system and I really-
Want to add another 8 software suites worth of vulnerabilities to that...
They should be pretty on it for security updates. Librewolf is also hardened compared to upstream Firefox so if security is a concern, you're probably better off using the fork anyway.
If you're going to add AI shit it should be something people can easily turn on. It should be off by default.
Not only the setting off, but any sort of behind the scenes stuff related to it disabled as well. No automatic updating, no background processes to "keep it ready, just in case". Do that when it's enabled.
Waterfox, Ironfox, Librewolf
Floorp
Zen?
Netscape Navigator 4
Yes but all of these depend on the development team at Firefox. I don’t know what the solution is, but I do know that those three browsers would not continue if Firefox didn’t also continue. There’s still a lot of development work from Firefox.
At this point I think the safer route would be to just accept the Chromium hegemony and build a free browser from that.
Firefox still at least have a far far far more permissive OSS license than Chromium, so I'd say stick with that
As long as there is a easy way to disable it. And clearly communicated what they are doing. I do not begrudge mozilla trying to remain competitive with mainstream.
if they say it will be an AI-only browser somehow i doubt it.
Did we read the same article? Where was the ai-only part?
There won't be
Thank god for librewolf, they fix most of the new Mozilla bullshit.
I'm an old man browsing this on LibreWolf on a Linux Mint desktop. If I can do it, anyone can.
Having said that, running across a FOSS app that only runs on Windows that I want to run, has me thinking I need to rebuild and dual boot Win 10 IOT. Frustrating. I just learned that while installing Linux next to Windows works, because of course it does, installing Windows next to Linux does not. Because, again, of course, Windows is an asshole. So, that means I'd need to nuke Linux, install Windows, then reinstall Linux. And, that seems like... a lot. I might still do it, though.
EDIT: The app I want to run needs access to my nvidia card. So a VM won't work, I already tried it.
I was recently wiping data out of one of my disks intending to sell it. There was a windows system installed there, which I wanted to get rid off anyway, so I let the process run while I was taking a nap. When I woke up and restarted the system I was very surprised to see that now my Linux system is missing and nothing works anymore except BIOS. Turns out I deleted my bootloader. I managed to fix it but It was stressful as hell (remember to backup your system, I didn't).
Weird things can happen during dual booting but it's all a life lesson, a lot of fuckery especially with windows, which likes to mess things up.
you could run a virtual machine on linux with windows on it, dual boot can be a pain in the ass to use.
librewolf is good but they're just a profile wrapper for uplink firefox with limited developers.
Yeah, they are doing everything they can to fix that mess, but there are some things that are impossible to fix. Mozilla kinda sucks now, but the alternatives suck even more so I'm staying with Librewolf, for now
It's very sad as I don't think there's a proper alternative in short term. In the end, I am afraid that I'll have to keep using Firefox because it's essentially the "lesser evil",
FF was suppose to be alternative to google, until google "captured competition" by making up majority of thier revenue.
It started as an alternative to Internet Explorer and was so much better it actually overtook it.
Actually Firefox is continued development from Netscape Navigator which predates Internet Explorer. Firefox is the grand daddy of internet browsers in that way.
Waterfox, Librewolf, Ironfox
I’m currently running Vivaldi and it’s been fine. YouTube is even smoother.
So you switched to a Google controlled ecosystem. To no one's surprise their own products, which intentionally run worse on competitive browsers, will work more smoothly once you use their backing software...
Google has a long history of abusing their position of power to "punish" users of other browsers and ecosystems by violating web standards, don't use Google's browsers or their derivatives.
This is true, however I've been cursed with using an iphone for a while and I had to find a decent alternative to firefox and ublock.
Unfortunately Safari is horrendous, like anything software Apple makes really, but it's the only browser allowed to have extensions and Vivaldi is the only real alternative to it that work, as Firefox is terrible on ios.
Orion browser allows this on iPhone! You can use Firefox or Chrome add ons.
When Firefox started recording key strokes
Source? That's news to me, and when I tried finding a source myself, all I found were extensions etc. to add that to the browser.
EDIT: Both the comment I replied to, and a comment replying to me by the same person, have been deleted...were they caught in a lie/mistake and not brave enough to admit it? lol
Better to "send keystrokes" to Google.
Waterfox. LibreWolf. Fennec.
Just use a fork; rawdogging Firefox is already a bit crazy.
IronFox over Fennec
As long as it is open source, it doesn’t matter. Forks like Librewolf will disable it.
It does matter a bit.
Librewolf devs depend on firefox development. They just rip out the stupid bits. They're not prepared to maintain a hard fork. They could still decide to do it, but it would take more community involvement.
And a shitload of time to keep the fork relevant as web sites keep evolving.
It increases the workload for fork devs the more crap they have to remove from upstream and the more the fork deviates from upstream.
AI and open source don't really go hand in hand
Ollama + Mistral models is pretty open. All the code and weights are open with a permissible licenses.
If Luddites get their way, that will become the case forever. It is okay if you don't want AI in your personal life, but I worry that opposition like yours will ensure that only wealthy jackasses have ownership over AI.
The important thing is to support efforts to create truly open AI and make it a public good available to all. Projects such as LlamaCPP, Olmo, Apertus, Heretic, and others will be key to allowing ordinary people to become masters of the technology.
Is there a Librewolf for phones? Can I somehow self-host the synchronization services?
I use fennec on phone
https://f-droid.org/packages/org.mozilla.fennec_fdroid
There is a shiton of browsers for phone but this one is often updated and the icon is cute (the most important feature)
There is also Firefox Focus which us basically a stripped down fennec. I use it as my default browser with JS disabled.
Is there a fennec like on desktop? I find librewolf has changed too much for what I want out of a Firefox fork. Websites just did not run the way I expected them to and I could not be arsed to fiddle with all of the different knobs to get them to work.
Zen is what I use, there's also Waterfox.
I liked Zen but it was a nightmare to deal with on multiple devices and dealing with multiple windows broke a lot of the essential stuff like them being unpinned on one window but not the new one but the new one has the original window essential now also as a standard tab. And they kept changing the way you switch between workspaces without the necessary customisation options to change it back and any of the mods that "fixed" those issues would then break unless updating the files manually because their fixes had to be merged into the main repo that zen uses for mods which didn't happen fast enough. So I gave up and and actually switched to edge briefly for it's implementation of vertical tabs (which i still think is done the best) until Firefox proper gained a good enough vertical tab implementation and I've been there since.
Install Firefox and disable telemetry, that's pretty much what Fennec does.
Ah that's what I already do
Fennec is slow to update actually (because of F-Droid mainly) and also it is NOT comparable to Librewolf.
There's IronFox
Fennec and IronFox.
You can actually host your own firefox sync service. It's kinda a pain to configure auth but it is entirely possible.
if google is still the majority of the revenue, it will close it down the line.
Come on servo
Never heard about it before, thank you!
Its the hope for better browsing and I am excited about it :)
From your comment it seems you don't truly understand what Servo is.
How is it a "hope" for you?
as much as my understanding goes, its a new browser engine which is completely open source, isnt that a good thing?
Definitely a good thing and definitely (possibly) an improvement.
However Gecko is open source too and, more importantly, the engine won't make a difference on the browser, which could still have all the worst possible features while still using the Servo engine.
Not trying to be a doomer here, I look forward to Servo and its adoption in Firefox.
well the biggest difference is servo being developed under linux foundation which is a non profit organization, that creates a huge difference in its motivation and direction.
Yes, but it is still only an engine.
Also Mozilla hasn't done anything wrong with Gecko that could make one question its motivation or direction.
I mean yeah they havent done anything wrong "yet" but I am loosing confidence in the company considering the direction they are headed in, like this AI stuff
All the supposed changes are only about Firefox not Gecko and we haven't seen anything yet, so what's the direction they are headed in?
Just relax and see what comes instead of losing confidence before anything happens.
Isn't servo what FF uses for rendering? I thought they had built that layer from scratch in Rust.
servo was initially developed by firefox so ig yeah. But it is currently under linux foundation
Very unfortunate development, which seems par for the course from Mozilla these days.
I'm jumping ship. Which browser would y'all recommend at this point? Preferably something I can get on android as well as linux.
LibreWolf is a great alternative on Linux. It’s Firefox with all the bs stripped out and out-of-the-box privacy settings turned on.
This is what I have used for the last few years (after being a Firefox user for almost 2 decades), and yeah we're probably safe for a little while, but it seems the writing is on the wall. The LibreWolf team can only do so much when the core browser is constantly being enshittified. I hoped this was a flash in the pan thing and LibreWolf would save us until Mozilla regained its senses, but it seems they've gone batshit.
I too will be keeping my eyes peeled for what to use next.
I'm hoping LibreWolf and Iron Fox hold out long enough for Ladybird to take off and I'll be switching
What do you do to move your bookmarks/history over?
I really do like using Firefox sync. I know its probably bad but it is a super nice feature that works.
There's certain files you can tell the browser to generate that is basically a list of all that stuff. Then just point librewolf to them. Pretty sure the librewolf website has a step by step guide.
<3
I'm a fan of Vivaldi browser. Works great on Linux and Android. Bonus: Their leadership has gone on record stating there will be no AI in their browser.
Where do they stand on manifest v3 things? Can we use uBlock origin? Full, not lite. Haven’t followed them enough to know.
uBlock origin works fine in Vivaldi. It comes with its own ad blocker (based of of uBlock, I think). I'm not sure what their stance on Manifest v3 is. I would recommend hitting up their site https://vivaldi.com/
How do you find the speed vs Firefox?
Honestly, it's been so long since I used Firefox, I really don't have a frame of reference. I'll just say that I find the speed adequate for my needs, and I have multiple tabs open (12+).
12? Only 12? Bruh. My Firefox legit gave up and just shows an infinity symbol 😭
Yah. I'm a bit of a tab lightweight, I s'pose.
I found their roadmap for 2026 to be pretty inspiring.
Waterfox works in both, it's not on f-droid so if you want to avoid the Play store then you have to use something like Obtainium
Floorp, brave, fennec
LibreWolf all the way
I like to imagine that these CEOs just get like a million AI emails a day from alt accounts of Sam Altman begging them to put AI in everything and they're all too stupud to realize it.
Firefox to evolve into not existing.
Well hopefully the different forks have their ducks in a row to strip all these “features” out down the road. So glad I use LibreWolf and not Firefox proper anymore
Just why? AI browsers have serious security/privacy implications.
For e.g:
Thank you. These are great articles.
I said it before but they are really excelling at alienating their users in (failed) attempts at attracting new ones.
It pains me to see, I don't want to use chromium, but there is a limit...
Gonna need a new default browser now.
probably Floorp or Librewolf
I can recommend checking out Zen as well
thanks… looks like it’s librewolf for me though
LibreWolf is a solid choice, I use it as well
Yeah this ain't it chief. Hope we can nuke the feature into oblivion, but we all know that won't be possible as Firefox enshittifies
Ok so where do I go? Waterfox?
I can vouch for zen browser! It’s been really good (so far)!
In my experience, Zen's design and customization is really nice but it's also extremely buggy. Maybe to be expected, as I think they are still in their alpha release.
I was also concerned about maybe getting fingerprinted more easily since it's a very niche browser.
Make sure you check the website that people link before downloading stuff--
Zen is available for macOS, Windows, and Linux.
It is not on mobile, so you might want to try some of the others listed in the thread
Yeah sync between phone and desktop is important unfortunately because of about a billion cloud things I use for work
Zen can still use Firefox sync to sync between desktop and mobile. Just have to use a firefox based mobile browser that didn't cut out firefox sync. I'm personally use Waterfox on Android, and Zen on Windows. My plan to move to linux by buying a new 2TB SSD is kind of on hold for now...
Hell yeah, at least the (former?) FOSS nature of Mozilla didn't preclude fork compatibility.
I believe zen is not available on android or iOS yet.
https://zen-browser.app/download/
Zen is available for macOS, Windows, and Linux.
How's the extension ecosystem? Or is it compatible with Firefox/Chrome extensions?
While Zen has their own mods page that works better with it, Firefox extensions work well.
So far everything I had on Firefox is working on zen.
Floorp is good
Well, older news is: "Firefox has evolved into the first thing I uninstall when I install Fedora, or any other Linux distro for that matter". Since the first mention of their so-called "anonymous telemetry" I began to actively avoid them. Like someone else mention, thank God for Librewolf, Mullvad and Brave (with Leo disabled).
Librewolf is still Firefox, but with the settings modified.
The fact that so many users go to a fork just because FF can't get the settings right from the start should be telling! At this stage, every new version, I go through the settings to double check there is no "new feature" I don't want enabled by default… So yes, I am tempted by Librewolf.
I use waterfox, Librefox is too strict. You are right Firefox keeps changing settings that a fork is easier now.
What's your point? Are you saying that I should use Firefox and be paranoid about some new bullshit 'feature' on every update and keep wasting time trying to find something that might, or might not, have been included in a new version and waste even more time figuring out how to disable it if found, assuming they haven't locked it to make it unable to be disabled?
I think you would do good to review your streamlines bro. That would be stupid, to use a light word, when we have options that allow us to just entirely avoid Mozilla's bullshit.
I'll consider using Mozilla once Anthony Enzor-DeMeo is fired or fucks off.
My decision has been rammed through in the exact same uncaring and unilateral way that Tony wants to ram AI down Mozilla users throats.
compare to vivaldi flat out refusing ai, keeping mv2, and actually building a blocker and tracker into the browser.
Too bad Vivaldi is still based on Chrome.
I just found out about this on mobile firefox must be quite new too. That default opt in is really disgusting.
Yeah, I'm just glad that it's opt-in. I don't find the option/ notion very palatable.
I forgot default. I never selected it and it activated on its own.
Ahhh. I see. I thought it was off by default (reading through these comments, I now realize that it is probably on by default). I can't remember the default state either, nor if I manually turned it off.
I just checked my phone, it was on by default for me.
ImoI, that just sucks. I don't want to turn into a walking advertisement for a company.
how would this afffect the forked versions like Waterfox, LibreWolf, IronFox? The AI part is a separated feature from mainline Firefox branch, so forks can choose not to include it?
But why !? Chatbots are useful enough, I don't need AI anywhere else than when I explicitly choose to use it on my terms !
You wanna make money ? Make a chatbot that lies less and/or doesn't reinforce people into their delusions, or one that runs for cheaper, or both.
AI is useful. Just like knives are useful. Doesn't mean I want every object I own to also somehow be or contain multiple knives 😅
More often than not, a faster horse is actually all we need.
Make sure you keep a list of all of these companies pushing ai bullshit. When the bubble pops, do not go back to them, do not give them anything, fuck them for being greedy idiots
I will gladly support initiatives that are anti-ai.
I've been using Firefox for longer than i can remember. That said, I'm ready to make the leap if necessary. What's the next browser to succeed Firefox? Suggestions??
imo anything firefox-based until servo or ladybird matures
i use waterfox, i know a lot of people use librewolf
remember that switching to anything chromium (like vivaldi, brave) still gives google power. on web standards at least, mozilla still fights for us (and is arguably the only one protecting us from shit like putting tracking stabdards directly into the web spec)
Thank you for this! I'll be looking into those options.
I "switched" last night (just to poke about) LibreWolf for PC and Fennec for phone.
Next browser on desktop will be one that has intentionally no JS support. If I'm making compromises I might as well go all the way through. 😅
Super pleased with Vivaldi
Vivaldi is chromium based. The goal is to not support Google's monopoly and stranglehold over dictating web standards.
The number of people suggesting that the appropriate responce to an optional feature for the standard bearer foss browser is to jump to a chrome based browser and further cement google's dominance is depressing.
My 1st goal is to have a good browser experience without Ai crap and have my privacy reasonably respected. Read up on Vivaldi if you question whether their goals align with these.
My second goal is to save the world, but I'm not going to use a crud AI browser like Firefox (which btw is funded by Google anyway) so I can feel superior.
You can still have a good (dare I say better) browser experience without AI crap by using a non chromium based browser.
For example you would probably really like uBlock Origin on a Gecko-based browser. uBO on a chromium based browser isn't as powerful because of recent Manifest V2 changes.
Also, the fact that Google funds Mozilla is not as bad as actually using chromium browsers. Using chromium browsers does more damage to our internet experience than having Mozilla accept dollars from Google.
In a way, don't you think it's weird that Google is funding Mozilla (and by your logic basically endorsing it) and yet you're not using it?
In a way, don't you think it's weird that Google is funding Mozilla (and by your logic basically endorsing it) and yet you're not using it?
In what way? I don't understand this. I want to be as far away from Google as I reasonably can without cutting my nose off to spite their face.
This reflexive chromium bad mentality really blinds people to what Vivaldi is doing. You don't seem to understand for example the manifest 2 changes have not affected Vivaldi and that they have pledged to prevent that for as long as they can. My u block works just as well as yours but my websites load faster and I have a development team that is anti AI not trying to shove slop at every upgrade.
So, let me get this straight. You've been using Firefox forever, but you're willing to switch immediately over obvious sensational clickbait?
Just looking for the next good browser, that's all. Just the same as i was willing to ditch reddit for greener pastures, even with the snarky cunts that came along too lol
I never like to put all my eggs in one basket.
Brave is comparable to Firefox in many ways. For better or worse it's my choice in the Chromium family for the time being.
I've supported Ladybird development and following them closely.
Hahaha fuck Firefox. Been saying it for years. Used to be the goat. Hasn't been for a decade and a half.
Nope, time for a new browser.
Welp, time to move to waterfox for good
Over to Waterfox then.
I don't care if there is a way to 'disable it' (there won't be) - if it's there, it not on my PC.
You already can't disable AI gemerated summaries on mobile.
https://noai.duckduckgo.com/- yes you can
If they truly believe in their AI offerings, they should release them as an extension so users can choose to install them. You only bundle shit people don't want. If it's good, you distribute it stand-alone.
When talking about it earlier, they mentioned the integrated AI would be local-only... Which sounds better, but I doubt is even possible (imagine all the low-end devices attempting to generate a response or analyse the website on their 6-8-year old CPUs...).
FWIW the development is done publicly, so you can check these claims https://blog.ziade.org/2025/12/05/two-years-of-ai-at-mozilla/
"Company does AI bullshit, fails miserably."
Countdown to the part of the headline after the comma.
That a way yo beat dead internet theory. Get IA hallucinate the web you browse and no need to webbrowser to have internet access.
Has anyone tried Mullvad Browser and would care to comment on their experience comparing to LibreFox, WaterFox, Floorp, Zen etc. ?
They have pushed me back to Vivaldi.
The AI browsers took my Arc they better leave my Zen Browser TF alone with these shenanigans.
I just want to be able to group tabs on mobile 🥲
Bring on ladybird!
A non beneficial mutation at best.
Since everyone is mentioning browsers, what should we use on mobile now? Tor isn't really a option, since most sites won't let you access them by it.
How long until the forks get deprecated? Is that even a possibility? I don't really know what goes into making this but I would imagine if it depends on some chunk of the mozilla source code, eventually it will be out of sync with the major releases or current browser standards. What does that mean for the TOR browser since its based on firefox right?
I ask that as someone moving from firefox to libre/waterfox.
It’s a bit more complex than that. The straight forks are fine for now, but the real concern would be if Gecko gets changed significantly.
They are just fork + patches, I think only one is maintained by the company that forked it but it's an esr version and it's an ad company.
Like many others, I switched away recently after years of Mozilla’s constant suckery. Fed up with dealing with their constant terrible decisions.
What did you switch to, prey tell?
Probably a fork of Firefox that can only survive as a side effect of the Mozilla engineering team's constant efforts.
Or a Chromium based browser.
Are there any other viable options?
Right now not really. Ladybird is coming next year and I'm hopeful for
How can we write to them? This is idiotic
Chrome =/= Chromium, like Android =/= AOSP folks.. just to clarify.
Get ready for the Firefox defenders to comment as the water in the kettle they are swimming in gets a few degrees warmer.
I'm usually a firefox defender, because usually people are blowing everything they do out of proportion, and straight up making up negatives.
That said, I don't know what a "modern AI browser" is but I know it's something I don't want. Hopefully "AI should always be a choice — something people can easily turn off." Is a serious statement.
But also, the AI features they've added so far have been out of my way and haven't bothered me, and if what you're calling for is to use chromium based browsers (gecko down stream is fine) then you are making the wrong decision for the future of the internet. Firefox, chrome, edge, and safari are the only browsers which have a snowballs chance of being accepted in corporate environments, and supporting google over Mozilla is a losing proposition.
You're not wrong but Mozilla is real busy making Firefox another bad choice among many bad choices.
Maybe it's time to go back to BBSes. This whole internet thing kinda sucks now.
Are they? What have they actually done to make it a bad choice? From my memory the last year or so they've:
- Added some AI stuff that I don't use but isn't in my way
- Added tab groups and sidebar tabs which I use constantly
- Clarified some legalese that didn't change anything but caused everyone to say the sky is falling for no reason
- Refused to deprecate manifest v2
Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying Mozilla is perfect and does everything I want. I wish they weren't funded by google and I wish they didn't waste so much money on executives, but not only do you need them to stand up to google by continuing to develop firefox (all the downstream gecko browsers would collapse), you need them to continue to participate in web standards committees so google doesn't get to run away and do whatever the fuck it wants (no other non-big-tech entity has a seat at the table or would get one)
I swear there is astroturfing for anti-mozilla sentiment to undermine their importance in the ecosystem
Edit: I just remembered they are using LLM to replace human written documentation. That is the worst thing they've done by far :/
I’m always confused why the energy isn’t just put on pressuring Firefox publicly rather than just sitting in comments being negative and suggesting forks that critically depend on Firefox and can no way continue development without upstream.
Cause most of us have no way to pressure them. What am I going to do, threaten to take away the $0 I’ve paid them over the last 20 years?
But, you know, that’s exactly the reason they don’t care about our whining.
Maybe it's time to go back to BBSes. This whole internet thing kinda sucks now.
Try permanently disabling JavaScript. It will break most sites but what remains is a largely peaceful experience.
Not defending but what's the alternative to the chromium monopoly? Most Firefox forks people talk about are a fork of the Firefox version + some patches. You're better off using Phoenix instead of those forks IMO.
I mean, all modern browsers are forks. I don't understand your point.
There's are 2 main browsers, Firefox and Chromium. chromium has a monopoly due to Google, edge, brave, etc. This monopoly allows Google as they dictate what happens to the chromium project, some implementations for features were never incorporated as it didn't suit Google like JPEG-XL. Even tho its open source its main contributors are from Google. Google dictated the change to manifest v2 to ruin adblockers as it impacts their revenue.
This decision impacted all other chromium forks. I think all of them (maybe except brave cause they may have the engineering bandwidth) now lack maifest v2 support. All because a corporate entity decided it was better if users didn't have adblocking capabilities.
They have even made changes to their implementations of various standards (HTML etc) and since most webdevs only test on Chromium, you end up with a subpar experience if you're not using Google or Chromiums implementation of that standard.
So my question as I stated earlier. What's the alternative to Firefox since even the alternatives are dependent on the work done by Firefox for their fork. And going to chromium is just allowing your core browsing experience (like adblocking) to be dictated by google.
point being that the active firefox forks are heavily dependent on upstream, just like the active chrome forks. if firefox dies, the forks die, unless they can scramble the 400ish full-time devs seemingly required to keep gecko current.
It's still tolerably warm, and there are no other kettles that would be worth switching to right now. I use Firefox and if it ever popped an AI feature at me, I turned it off a long time ago and haven't thought about it since.
I switched to chromium, I think its bug free
Just noticed this is -22 downvotes. Will someone explain why