Simple
5mon 1d ago by lemmy.world/u/homesweethomeMrL in justpost
I think this kind of mentality partially absolves the US of its own homegrown horrors and ignores the imperialist and fascist parts of our own society that have existed here since it's creation.
Right. Like, yeah, they might be Russian agents but they're WILLING agents. If Russia is asking them to do things, they're things these traitors already wanted to do.
Whether they're Russian agents isn't exactly irrelevant, but it also doesn't really change anything. Russia night have sped up the process, but we've been on this road literally since the inception of our country.
It's wild to me how much of a boogeyman Russia has been made into in lib circles.
There are probably a dozen or so countries who actively root for and foment political discontent in the US, but for some reason any American that falls into alignment with some loose formation of anti-democraric positions qualifies specifically as a Russian agent
Libs do not realize just how xenophobic their own politics have become. Just because you think your fears are justified doesn't mean they arent irrational
Few countries had figures like Putin who played a long-game over decades to destabilize the US. The ones that do, we're so into with oil deals, we don't care if they did 9/11. I guess... now that I think about it, it is kind of weird.
It’s wild to me how much of a boogeyman Russia has been made into in lib circles.
It's a convenient thought terminating cliche. It stops them from introspecting. After you are so fucking delighted to support genocide that you would rather lose to trump than stop, you don't want to do any introspecting.
They willingly cooperate with russia because russia helps them to take power via online botnets. Yeah, they are absolute scum, but you can find those in any society. The problem is foreign interference that gives them voice. Like the one USA now tries to apply to EU countries, boosting the far righters via social media algorithms.
because russia helps them to take power via online botnets
What makes you think the richest country in the world doesn't have the power to create such botnets in the first place and relies on Russia?
They have their own botnets but they also use russian ones. It's not mutually exclusive. The volume of bullshit matters.
Ok, now, do you have reliable numerical information comparing the volume of US vs Russian botnets? And by reliable, I mean taking into account that the US propaganda apparatus is much better funded and refined and less prone to being caught red handed. A good example of a good study would be to compare demonstrably pro-US-geopolitical-interest-netbots vs pro-Russian ones
What does pro-USA propaganda has to do with personal media power of MAGA election campaign? They weren't even at power to control the state propaganda before they won the elections.
Like, yeah, they might be Russian agents but they're WILLING agents. If Russia is asking them to do things, they're things these traitors already wanted to do.
So if your grandma buys magic beans from some guy that promises they'll cure her cancer, do you say "we'll she bought them, she deserved to get tricked"?
You are projecting your own mindset onto others.
I don't know why I'm here
all I care about is that we (as in US citizens) don't blame the other countries for the shit that we did and correcting the stupid ass people who think that they're the reason everything is so fucked up.
No.
This is like my grandma wants to kill every groundhog in the world and is working on it one groundhog at a time, then she buys magic beans that the seller promises will make groundhogs easier and faster to kill after she plants them, but the seller is also a violent murderer and says that if she doesn't buy them and plant them then he'll stab her. So she buys and plants them, not because of the threat but because it's what she wants to, and then she goes on killing groundhogs but now it's faster and easier.
You see, the words "willing" and "tricked" are antithetical in this case. The threat is incidental to the story and, on a narrative level serves no purpose but to characterized the seller as evil; he didn't threaten her because the threat was necessary to successfully extort her, he threatened her because it's in his nature to threaten people. The threat doesn't change the outcome in any way.
Being tricked into buying magic beans vs voluntarily being fucking evil for money and power
This is a moronic comparison
Precisely. The US is suffering what they have inflicted on other countries for decades. It's hard to have any empathy for them now when they are still doing it (e.g. Trump supporting Milei in Argentina).
Does it matter? The average American does not understand imperialism, their understanding was not needed to create it and it's not required to unravel it
Healthcare, housing, wages... These are the polar bears. They're the poster child, everyone is like "yeah, those are cute. I want to save them"
You don't have to then explain why they should care, which requires them to understand a complex system of relationships
We don't need informed support, we just need support to do good things, some of which should be done loudly and others we don't need to make a show over
One could just as easily say that a meme about US homegrown horrors ignores the effect foreign propaganda efforts are having and absolves the countries hostile to America of blame.
You could, but it would be stupid
Stop trying to blame Russia, blame capitalism. I hate putin as much as you (probably more because I can't live in my own house, or visit my parents, all because of him), but it is your ruling class at fault and not some russian influence. Whatever putin could do is inconsequential compared to the wealth and influence the 20 richest people of your empire.
Your billionaires have decided that trump and fascism is the most beneficial choice for them at present, it is truly that simple. What you are witnessing right now is a natural outcome of a capitalist system, as intended by your racist proto-nazi founding fathers.
Whatever putin could do is inconsequential compared to the wealth and influence the 20 richest people of your empire.
Are you suggesting that $20k in Facebook ads didn't decide the result of a $4B election season?
Sounds like Russian propaganda to me
It can be two things. Read this or anything else about Cambridge Analytica to get a sense of the difference between what they were doing and the same hack political radio ad hour after hour.
Trump's ties to russia are many and varied, going back forty-plus years. It’s all been documented in Proof of Conspiracy, Mueller found collusion; these are not hypotheticals. It’s a known part of the current befuckdedness.
Is it the ONLY part? No. But it starts there and it stays there.
Trump’s ties to russia are many and varied
Trump's ties to the Italian Mafia are stronger. He's a second generation fence and money launderer who made a fortune helping to move money out of Eastern Europe back in the 90s.
But he's an American creation who worked on behalf of American institutions. That's why he's tied up with Guliani, Bloomberg, Clinton, and Epstein.
The tunnel vision liberals have with Russia ignores a rich vein of corruption for one of its more salacious and partisan tributaries.
Trump's ties to the Italian Mafia are stronger.
We're probably splitting hairs, but - what? I haven't heard that before but I've heard a LOT about the russian angle. (we seem to converge on Eastern Europe though)
what? I haven’t heard that before
It was bigger news back in 2016
The picture shows that Trump’s career has benefited from a decades-long and largely successful effort to limit and deflect law enforcement investigations into his dealings with top mobsters, organized crime associates, labor fixers, corrupt union leaders, con artists and even a one-time drug trafficker whom Trump retained as the head of his personal helicopter service.
The Russia connection was minor by comparison, and largely a result of Trump's status as a lynchpin in NY crime.
I think that DCJ piece is good, and clearly ‘mob’ connections are rife, but outside of that early-80’s wash of Roy Cohn and the ready-mix concrete guys, there’s not a lot more specific to Italian mafia.
I read that Giuliani’s ‘cleanup’ of Italian mobsters allowed in the russians which was duly appreciated. Early 80s is the same time the Kremlin started to keep tabs on Trump, giving him a tour and business opportunities then.
Felix Sater, Michael Cohen, Rybolovlev and others who consistently and repeatedly appear in any honest accounting of his blatantly illegal dealings.
Unger’s account of infiltration also exposes how Trump’s financial entanglements laid the groundwork for this betrayal. In the 1980s, as Trump struggled with debt from failing casinos and overextended real estate ventures, Soviet-linked financiers appeared, flush with cash.
Deals involving Trump Tower properties drew in shadowy buyers connected to Russian organized crime and intelligence fronts. Even when Western banks deemed him too risky, new Russian-linked money never seemed to dry up. Each transaction pulled him closer into Moscow’s orbit.
By the time the Soviet Union collapsed, Russian oligarchs kept the pipeline open, ensuring that Trump’s business empire would survive—and remain beholden to foreign backers whose first loyalty was to the Kremlin. (via)
So while there certainly were ties to Italian mafia, his later business and almost all of his political life is awash in russian mob ties. Given that russia is run by mafias-within-mafias that’s not so surprising, is it.
outside of that early-80’s wash of Roy Cohn and the ready-mix concrete guys
The article goes significantly farther than ready-mix concrete. Trump was in tight with the Gambino family, among other mob affiliates and organizations.
I read that Giuliani’s ‘cleanup’ of Italian mobsters allowed in the russians which was duly appreciated. Early 80s is the same time the Kremlin started to keep tabs on Trump, giving him a tour and business opportunities then.
It ties out with a shift in policy from Cold Era Italy being a major bridge between NATO agencies in the West and their informants/operators in the East. Post-collapse, Sicily was old news since you could march your goons directly into St. Petersburg and Moscow to commence the looting.
But Trump's roll as a money launderer and fixer remains consistent during the transition.
So while there certainly were ties to Italian mafia, his later business and almost all of his political life is awash in russian mob ties.
His primary ties were to US and German lenders, with black market business interests using his properties to clean their ill-gotten gains. The flood of money and refugees coming out of Eastern Europe following the post-Soviet crash changed the composition of his criminal clients. His roll in legitimizing the looting through financialization did not.
Cambridge Analytica
UK group and Facebook profit maximization is not Russia. Blaming the pure establishment corruption of democracy on Russia is just partisan whining for more establishment warmongering.
It could be two things! But it isn't lol
Cambridge Analytica is a good place to start. Previously:
- IT Pro: Cambridge Analytica models were exaggerated and ineffective, [UK Information Commissioner’s Office] claims
- Wall Street Journal: Mueller Doesn’t Find Trump Campaign Conspired With Russia
- Jacobin: Democrats and Mainstream Media Were the Real Kremlin Assets
- Washington Post: FEC fines DNC, Clinton for violating rules in funding Steele dossier
- Washington Post: Russian trolls on Twitter had little influence on 2016 voters
- Jacobin: It Turns Out Hillary Clinton, Not Russian Bots, Lost the 2016 Election
- Matt Taibbi: Move Over, Jayson Blair: Meet Hamilton 68, the New King of Media Fraud The Twitter Files reveal that one of the most common news sources of the Trump era was a scam, making ordinary American political conversations look like Russian spywork
- Jacobin: Why the Twitter Files Are in Fact a Big Deal On the Left, there’s been a temptation to dismiss the revelations about Twitter’s internal censorship system that have emerged from the so-called Twitter Files project. But that would be a mistake: the news is important and the details are alarming.
- MSNBC Repeats Hamilton 68 Lies 279 Times in 11 Minutes
- Matt Taibbi: CIA "Cooked The Intelligence" To Hide That Russia Favored Clinton, Not Trump In 2016
- Aaron Maté: Under Trump, the CIA is still covering up its Russiagate fraud
- Matt Taibbi: Note on New Trump-Russia Disclosures Thanks to explosive new document releases, the Russiagate hoax is now exposed, commencing a new era that will be about accountability for the guilty
- Matt Taibbi: No Doubt Left: Russiagate Was a Cover-Up
- Chris Hedges: Why Russiagate Won’t Go Away The cynical con the Democratic Party and the F.B.I. carried out to falsely portray Donald Trump as a puppet of the Kremlin worked, and continues to work, because it is what those who detest Trump want to believe.
Those archive.today links didn’t work for me, but that could just be me. The “studies” are opinions otherwise and if you want to pick one, I’ll kick it apart but I’m not going to go through all of them.
You are describing an oligarchy, or maybe plutocracy.
Yes, that is correct. And it is also an accurate description of that shithole between Canada and Mexico.
Sorry to say, but the whole world is pretty much fascist. Even the most progressive countries have ever widening income inequality along with the majority of their policies written by corporations.
Both can be true?
I can agree to that.
Capitalism is a form of authoritarianism. Its anti free market and anti personal freedoms. It uses power to gain more power and control.
I was with you until last half of the last sentence.
Racist, sure. “proto-nazi”? Who and why? One example would be great, I don’t understand the connection.
Without having to click links it's basically this; Hitler had a Hardon for American Exceptionalism and shit, Nazis are based on American ideas just taken to the extreme.
So hence proto as in precursor to the Nazis.
Thanks for the description! When I think ‘founding fathers’ I’m thinking of the literal dudes who wrote and signed the US constitution and the Bill of Rights.
I didn’t see any connections for the term to that time period in American history.
You mean the guys that literally genocided native peoples? That wrote into the constitution that black people were worth less? That only rich land-owning people should be allowed representation?..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington_and_slavery
Do you even care to do a bit of research?
Stop trying to blame Russia
No.
blame capitalism.
We can do both, but one of them has a more defined paper trail.
The notion that your "Trump and the GOP are Russian assets" conspiracy theory has a "more defined paper trail" than the countless volumes of work done by thousands of historians, philosophers, economists, and scientists, going back hundreds of years regarding the depravity of American capitalism is just downright laughable.
What are you even trying to say here? Are you seriously saying the Russia/Trump connection is more well understood than the pitfalls of American Capitalism?
If Trump is a Russian asset, why didnt the US pull out of NATO months ago? Why was Trump shipping Jevlins by the truckload to Ukraine at the beginning of the war? Why is Trump's entire schtick that NATO (Russia's primary adversary) needs to increase spending (which it has, in record amounts)?
If Russia is blamed for Trump’s election, we avoid the unpleasant reality of our failed democratic institutions and decaying empire. We avoid facing the inevitable rise of a Christianised fascism borne out of widespread impoverishment, rage, despair and abandonment. We avoid acknowledging the complicity of the Democratic Party in the orchestration of the largest social inequality in our nation’s history, the evisceration of our basic civil liberties, endless wars and an electoral system bankrolled by the billionaire class, which is legalised bribery. The myth allows us to believe that Democratic politicians, like the establishment Republicans who have joined them, are the guarantors of a democracy they destroyed.
All the investigations into Trump’s ties with Russia are unequivocal. There was no collusion. The Steele dossier, financed at first by Republican opponents of Trump and later by Hillary Clinton’s campaign, and compiled by former MI6 British intelligence officer, Christopher Steele, was a fake. The charges in the dossier — which included reports of Trump receiving a ‘golden shower’ from prostituted women in a Moscow hotel room and claims that Trump and the Kremlin had ties going back five years — were discredited by the FBI. Sources, including the one that claimed Trump had long-held ties to the Kremlin, turned out to be fabricated. Special Counsel Robert S Mueller concluded that his investigation ‘did not establish that members of the Trump Campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities.’ Mueller did not indict or accuse anyone of criminally conspiring with Russia.
- Chris Hedges
We can do both, but one of them has a more defined paper trail.
Capitalism's trail of blood in your country goes back to its founding. It is incredibly well-defined and has been studied a lot (except they won't tell you about it in school or many universities).
And if you want a more concrete link between capitalism and trump, look at inauguration footage again, or look at campaign contributions.
Russia's entire state budget was less than revenue of just Apple in 2024. If your ruling class didn't want trump, he wouldn't be a president right now.
Uh yeah, okay
Exhibit A: USian prompted to interrogate their internalized racism
So, y’all just say whatever comes to mind and pretend it’s a real thing, huh? Cool.
At this point, I can't see any other reason you'd stick to blaming "the russians" for the state of your country. Even if putin has kompromat on trump, putin is not the reason republicans hold all three branches of your government.
Again, it's not just "the russians" but so many of you are jumping out of your seats about it.
So many of you from .ml that is.
Curious.
Ah, I see, this is a "just post" community, and you carefully follow the rules by just posting and not actually reading the content you post at any point. Hats off to you.
"You're from the bad instance" lol pathetic
It's because you called out russia. Now the tankies are here to defend them and blame capitalism for everything.
Delusional
Ah there they are.
Americans doing the same fucked up shit americans have always done but at home instead of abroad, or to you instead of the usual minority targets? Call them russians! People correcting you? Call them tankies! You don't need to have a coherent response, you can just hurl pejoratives and thought-terminating cliches at anyone who questions you and feel great about yourself even if you're completely wrong and fantastically fucking stupid!
.ml user defending russia and slinging but USA..lol fuck off tankie.
I'm right, cry about it patriot
Kk kid
Cope
The NYT found no clear evidence of that though.
😆
Log off and go read a book kiddo
If your ruling class didn't want trump, he wouldn't be a president right now.
You're projecting. Maybe YOU can't be nudged towards an ideology by propaganda, but millions of people can. They can be tricked.
Until you realize that, it's not going to get any better.
The propaganda is coming from inside the imperialist house. Fox isn't owned by some Russian billionaire.
You cant just blame "those pesky, conniving foreigners" when your country descends into fascism after 2 centuries of racism, genocide, and withering away of social safety nets.
You cant just blame "those pesky, conniving foreigners"
Nice, trying to dismiss the very real threat Russia poses as racism. Sounds like something a Russian would do.
Nice, trying to dismiss the very real threat that American capitalism poses as Russian shilling. Sounds like something a State Department agent would do.
Face it: whatever threat Russia poses wasn't a major factor in getting trump elected. It was paid for by US oligarchs, not putin.
Agreed. Those damn Russians forced us to genocide the natives and do slavery too, and anyone who tries to deflect blame off of Russia and onto Americans is clearly trying to serve Russian interests, so their perspective can be dismissed without consideration.
Those fucking Russians crapped my pants, too.
Stop calling them Conservatives. They're Russians
Just absolutely peak liberal. You cannot accept that American conservatives are bad. You need them to be Evil Foreigners.
This is how you end up side by side with Liz Cheney, pockets stuffed full of O&G money, telling your base voters to stfu about climate change if they want to win the next election.
Just absolutely peak liberal.
What if there’s more liberal than that? Ha! Hoisted by your own petard!
You cannot accept that American conservatives are bad. You need them to be Evil Foreigners.
I don’t know why you’re interpreting this so literally, but obviously US conservatives are not all russian citizens. And they are doing bad things.
This is how you end up side by side with Liz Cheney, pockets stuffed full of O&G money, telling your base voters to stfu about climate change if they want to win the next election.
Oh right, Democrats bad again. Hey, why the fuss? You won, didn’t ya? Not enough corpo-libtards voted just like you wanted and here we are waist-deep in insanity shit. Mission Accomplished!
Oh wait you wanted the magical unicorn election where we all hold hands and chant instead of voting so that the outcome of the vote is guaranteed to be pure. Well since that’s literally never, ever going to happen I hope you can take some comfort in pretending it might if you just shit on the Democrats enough.
Hey, why the fuss? You won, didn’t ya?
Is Zombie Mao doing a Red Terror against the US ruling class? No? You got the wrong team buddy
It's a class stuggle.
It's that simple.
I thought it was a political struggle.
All political struggle is either bourgeois infighting (flip on the telly to see it), or class war (the ruling class doesn't want you to think about it). The former can be fun to watch at times, the latter is the one which has any chance of improving your material conditions.
The struggle of class against class is a what struggle?
A what struggle?
Not sure what the gotcha is. Class struggle is a subset of political struggle, and it is the subset most relevant to you the worker, as outlined by my comment.
Marx said that every class struggle is a political struggle. This means that, if the proletarians and capitalists are waging an economic struggle against each other today, they will be compelled to wage a political struggle tomorrow and thus protect their respective class interests in a struggle that bears two forms. The capitalists have their particular business interests. And it is to protect these interests that their economic organisations exist. But in addition to their particular business interests, they also have common class interests, namely, to strengthen capitalism. And it is to protect these common interests that they must wage a political struggle and need a political party.
It’s also a bit.
The closest libs come to ever reading theory is asking a chatbot about a Monty Python sketch.
Log off and read a book
Nationalities are just a convenient scape goat for everyone to point fingers at.
The real problems stem from a billionaire and multi millionaire class that absolutely does not want any kind of democratic government system to develop and to destroy any signs of it everywhere else.
All those billionaire and multi millionaire class owners have absolutely no care if their passports say America, UK, Russia or China ... they couldn't give a shit which nation they align with as long as their wealth is always protected.
Just look at all the wars that are being fought right now .... governments are more willing to sacrifice people and soldiers rather than in affecting the wealth of anyone on any side of the conflict.
If they wanted to stop wars, they would shut down financial systems completely and starve one side of the conflict or the other until someone submitted. But they'd rather throw human bodies into the fray than in even considering touching the bottom line of a billionaire, regardless of which side of the war they are on.
Everybody Sucks Here.
The purity of our blessed country and it's founding fathers must never be impungned. All corruption originates with those filthy foreigners, who are ontologically evil, and to suggest otherwise is proof of heresy, of being corrupted by the foreigner.
Washington protects.
Death to all xenos!
Holding the bedrock of a nations political power to just being an ethnic group is a pretty wild take, albeit unsurprising.
Like a zoo of a take.
The Overton window of mainstream US politics has gotten so narrow and so rightwing the major dispute seems to only be about which foreigners are to blame for everything wrong.
Russia has got nothing to do with it. It's all on the people of USA. No one else
It's becoming clear there is only one oligarch ruling party in the US, so they're looking for something new to blame since they can just pass the ball from red to blue anymore.
it's simpler than that. the oligarch class here and the oligarch class in russia are friends. the inner party, or oligarchs, in china are friends, too. we all live in one imperial top down system that's designed to look like it's opposed to itself
(good point but I think you said "russia" twice by accident in first sentence.)
whoops!
Russia and China are less corrupt than west because they control oligarchy. Yeltsin was our CIA puppet that gave away Russia to their oligarchs with western financing/profit flows. Putin has reformed corruption, which is why our demonic filth opposes him. China also does not need oligarch support to maintain rule, and in fact spreads prosperity more pluralistically than west does.
Our corrupt propaganda against Russia needed treason by oligarchs to beg Putin to destroy Russia so they can get their yachts back. We can only project corruption on entire world, and it is the dumb plebs that believe in the strategy.
It has something to do with it inasmuch as it's in their best interests for the US to destroy itself and they do whatever they can to help it along.
Sure. But the way you counteract oh-so-scary foreign influence is by having institutions and leaders behave in a way that builds public trust.
Just pointing at some nation on the other side of the planet and saying, "They're trying to trick you!" does jack shit. It's misplaced priorities at best and rabid jingoism at worst.
Yeah "pointing fingers and making things up", huh?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_2016_United_States_elections
https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/cyber/russian-interference-in-2016-u-s-elections
Putrid disinfo shill
Is this comment an example of misplaced priorities or rabid jingoism?
Vote now on your phones!
I never said "making things up", that's all you baby
"Wikipedia is evil for saying bad things about Ruzzia!!!! "
Yeah about the level of rhetoric I expected from you
This is why you never win any of the wars you start. Oh, sorry, "special military operation".
Operation MEATGRINDER ruahahahahah
...what are you reading? It's clearly not what I've written.
Because you're pathetically avoiding discussing Russian disinfo, and instead just pretend any implication that any exist is "rampant jingoism" or some other ridiculous bullshit.
Honestly if you were a bit smarter maybe one Finn (or modernly Ukrainian actually) wouldn't be equivalent to 10 Russians. As it stands, we and they very much are.
I'm not avoiding it, I just think 10 years of Russian disinformation is a grain of sand compared to one week of Rupert Murdoch's private news monstrosity. Sorry, mate, the fascist call is coming from within the anglophonic world.
But hey, thanks for being such a good example of rabid jingoism!
10 years of Russian disinformation is a grain of sand
That's a very unrealistic portrayal.
Like saying "I don't think one white lie make a politician a liar" about Trump who's verifiably spitting out like half lies.
Let's see some of the shit Russia has pulled in the Russo-Ukrainian war alone in the past few years;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_Russo-Ukrainian_war_(2022%E2%80%93present)
During the Russo-Ukrainian war (2022–present) starting with the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, the Russian military and authorities have committed war crimes, such as deliberate attacks against civilian targets, including on hospitals, medical facilities and on the energy grid;[1][2][3] indiscriminate attacks on densely populated areas; the abduction, torture and murder of civilians; forced deportations; sexual violence; destruction of cultural heritage; and the killing and torture of Ukrainian prisoners of war.[4][5][6][7]
That's the starting chapter.
"Rabid jingoism."
Jingoism is extreme, aggressive nationalism and patriotism that promotes a country's interests through threats or force, viewing its nation as superior and demanding aggressive foreign policies over diplomacy,
You simply can't help but to project your emotions. You're kinda ashamed of what your being made to do. You really wish you could've been born in the West! (as you call it) sad horn sounds womp womp wooomp
Please learn to actually use English before attempting to use with your shitty propaganda. Where davel@lemmy.ml. Dude is a mod who went on a personal rage trip against me and is now afraid to post on anywhere he isn't a mod for being afraid of me.
I kinda miss him. We was a gentleman at least. Despite one pretending to be American and thick as a boot. (as all you vinkkelitossus are, you just don't have anyone to compare so you can't see it yourself lol)
You're grossly underplaying the influence foreign governments have had on each other within the past century. They're going above and beyond "trying to trick you."
They're heavily investing in popular talking heads to support a path of radicalization, buying ads that target voters on Facebook, forming special interest social media groups, manipulating social media with bot farms, heavily bribing politicians, blackmailing the powerful, recruiting millionaires, lobbying policy, running a counterintelligence campaign, running hacking operations, and more that we don't even know. They're weaponizing intelligence and trying to convert people's opinions to their advantage so that their opponents crumble from within. And they're damn good at it.
Nobody's "just pointing" at Russia or other countries. We have a recorded history of them doing it, and we can trace it back to them. They're all doing it.
OK great. Amend your comment to mine. The last point still stands:
You counteract forgiven influence by giving people a reason to trust their local institutions. By delivering positive material change to hundreds of millions. Without that, it is just pointing fingers and complaining.
yeah like why do people keep saying it's Russia like chill
Anti-fascism has absolutely nothing to gain from dumb lib conspiracies.
It's a marvelous thing to watch American leaders just blaming others about the things they do wrong. Didn't you hear? Venezuela robbed their Venezuelan oil. They can't be the baddies, never ever, forever.
Even worse is when politicians blame the citizens. Working two jobs and still struggling? Your fault. Marriages falling apart? Blame gay marriage. Can't afford an $500,000 house? Tough luck. Can't afford heath care? You don't deserve it. Mental hospitals closed? Name a business that sucks and blame their customers. Only politicians get away with it
This is dumb as shit, completely pointless.
if only the us becomes a socialist country during the great depression. seriously!
huh. I never thought about it like that before.
Weird, it's not the first time I've seen someone respond like this to an otherwise unremarkable comment that heavily criticizes the US. Not to mention your "I'm an ally for Russia in the US" comment.
what
huh ok
Who are you? Is this your alt? Did you get banned? 😂
I'm blocking you.
Who the fuck are you, even? 😂🤣 haha lmao
Figures you'd be an .ml as usual.
Oh, I'm now a crybaby for asking who you are and saying that you come from a server one would expect this type of behavior from. :(
Figures you'd start acting like a little bitch and making shit up when you have nothing else to draw from.
You, playing the victim, jumping in mid-thread pretending to be a part of it, and accusing people of random things. You like making shit up.
What conspiracy? Can you really not think beyond buzzwords?
And your response is "u mad" for taking a shit and asking why people clog their noses?
Fuck off.
Nice edit. The trick is to do it before the other person replies, not after.
Might help if centrists could stop calling people to their left fascists and russians for disliking genocide.
But then they'd have to defend the indefensible
The world does not revolve around genocide, good god, can we see the world at large beyond a single topic? I'm not even a centrist, and I know that's not the reason for the name-calling.
The world does not revolve around genocide,
The democratic party does.
I’m not even a centrist, and I know that’s not the reason for the name-calling.
You've never called genocide wrong, so centrists don't call you a russian.
The world does not revolve around genocide, good god, can we see the world at large beyond a single topic?
Sure, the Nazis did the Holocaust, so that's one point against, but their uniforms looked pretty sharp, so that's one point in favor. All in all, pretty much neutral. I don't see why people get so hung up on one single topic.
That doesn't quite fit what I'm saying, but I'm glad you found the opportunity to regurgitate one of your comments I've read a while ago.
I frequently call out bullshit attempts to minimize literal genocide as being "just a single issue," so I'm not surprised it sounds similar to something I've said before.
It does, however, fit exactly with what you said.
Nobody's minimizing anything. I'm saying you and Ensign_Crab are overstating the role that genocide plays in this one topic.
So how does your comment fit that? It's a thought-terminating saying that you like to repeat as if it proves a point. That's it. Don't come at me with your bullshit, either.
I genuinely don't see how it's possible to reason with this bullshit.
"Not minimizing, just saying that you're overstating," what? Do you not recognize the obvious contradiction in that?
So how does your comment fit that?
I don't see how you're struggling to make the connection, it's literally just swapping out one genocide and one perpetuator of genocide for another, keeping the words and logic exactly the same. I'm not (sarcastically) "minimizing" the Holocaust, I'm just "saying that you're overstating" the Holocaust in (presumably) concluding from it that Nazis are bad, without considering other factors, such as how they dress.
Brother, you realize that the original statement by Ensign_Crab makes no sense, right? They're using genocide to grind their axe and have admitted as much. You two are using a hot topic like genocide as an excuse to rail against people and pick a fight. My criticism is a meta comment about that.
What doesn't make sense is what you're accusing me of when you haven't realized why I'm saying it.
Brother, you realize that the original statement by Ensign_Crab makes no sense, right?
Makes perfect sense to me. Don't see anything about it that doesn't make sense.
They’re using genocide to grind their axe and have admitted as much
Really? Where? Or are you just making that up and lying?
You two are using a hot topic like genocide as an excuse to rail against people and pick a fight
Genocide is a pretty good reason to pick a fight, if you ask me. I think it's the single most valid reason to pick a fight that has ever existed.
"You're just using genocide as an excuse to rail against people and pick a fight!"
Quit blaming Russia for the US doing the same shit it's always been doing, the only difference is who we're doing it to, the people saying this sort of inane shit only care because it's affecting them
I'm an ally for Russia in the US
What?
The fuck, Russian doesn't control shit, they can't even control their own troops half the time.
Trump's just a shithead who will do almost anything when praised by powerful people, especially if given a shiny object.
Why do Republicans have to be secretly in the thrall of the Russians to be evil? Can't the Republicans just be scum based on their own will?
Or alternatively you can just call them reactionaries, as bad as Russia is they're a drop in the bucket compared to the American capitalist class
Wait are you suggesting that russia isn't anywhere near as bad as Americans? Cause we're all part of the capitalist class. Every Western nation is...hell pretty much every economy on the planet is capitalist.
I read in the previous comment "american capitalists". Which is a step up from elsewhere. But yes, also, Russia isn't anywhere near as bad as the formerly united states. Not when averaged over the past decades since WW2. However, at this very moment, Russia is worse - because for once, that other shithole regime has no hot war ongoing. Unless you count their assistance towards the genocide and otjer war crimes committed against the palestinian people. At which point it becomes a tie again in terms of evilness :(
The former United States? In the same time line that russia has been around, they've done way more than the USA has done. You can't even begin to compare the two. One literally sided with Nazis and has killed millions via famine. The USA has some atrocious imperialism but we're not russia level of murdering.
One literally sided with Nazis and has killed millions via famine
The other is USSR
The USA has some atrocious imperialism but we’re not russia level of murdering.
How delusional do you have to be to believe that is beyond my comprehension. I guess this is the end result of the american education system.
The US is directly responsible for hundreds of millions of deaths from famine, horrendous working conditions, or just outright war, all around the global south. Heck, it was founded upon genocide of immense proportions (96% of native population eradicated), which was so bad that nazis used it as a blueprint for the holocaust.
Russian war crimes in Ukraine are horrible but are nothing compared to the hell on earth created by your fascist country in just the last two years. Compare the civilian death tool in Gaza vs Ukraine to see for yourself. In absolute terms, your country is the single most evil entity on this planet.
This does not excuse putin and his cronies, I hope to see them all do hard labor in prison for the rest of their miserable existence, together with all american presidents and their accomplices.
The other is USSR
Yea I forgot how the USSR going away meant that russia which ran the USSR didn't side with the Nazis.
How delusional do you have to be to believe that is beyond my comprehension. I guess this is the end result of the american education system.
Considering your idea of "it wasn't russia" is to ignore everything russia has done in the past. To you, russia has only existed since 1991 apparently.
The US is directly responsible for hundreds of millions of deaths from famine, horrendous working conditions, or just outright war, all around the global south. Heck, it was founded upon genocide of immense proportions (96% of native population eradicated), which was so bad that nazis used it as a blueprint for the holocaust.
The fuck are you on about, the US hasn't been around long enough to pull hundreds of millions of deaths. On top of that you're suggesting that it's murdered over half the population of the global South...
The native Americans bit was %100 fucked up, but let's not forget Russia doing the same/worse...Circassian genocide go read up on it.
Russian war crimes in Ukraine are horrible but are nothing compared to the hell on earth created by your fascist country in just the last two years. Compare the civilian death tool in Gaza vs Ukraine to see for yourself. In absolute terms, your country is the single most evil entity on this planet.
Wait gaza is on us now? If that's the case then...
All of these dictators are on russia....assad is in the list
This does not excuse putin and his cronies, I hope to see them all do hard labor in prison for the rest of their miserable existence, together with all american presidents and their accomplices.
Sounds kinda like you are excusing them...this entire thread has been you excusing them with whataboutism of the USA...and getting your facts all kinds of messed up.
Tankies gonna tank.
Yea I forgot how the USSR going away meant that russia which ran the USSR didn’t side with the Nazis.
Both the west and USSR made deals with the nazis all the way until the war. Many US capitalists invested or outright donated to the reich.
Once the war began, USSR was the principal country which defeated nazis, look at the numbers of nazi soldiers who fought and died on western vs. eastern front. The US meanwhile sheltered nazi war criminals after the war.
The fuck are you on about, the US hasn’t been around long enough to pull hundreds of millions of deaths
US has been around for almost 250 years, and involved in a genocidal imperialist war (or at least a fascist coup) of some kind for almost that entire time. The hundreds of millions of excess deaths figure is a lower bound.
On top of that you’re suggesting that it’s murdered over half the population of the global South…
Currently, Global South is ~6 billion people (depending on which countries you count in), what are you on about...
Wait gaza is on us now?
Yes, guess who's providing all the cash, weapons, intelligence, diplomatic and military support to the genociders? US is directly responsible for the ongoing genocide, stop sending money&weapons and it ends in a week.
To be honest, Ukraine war is like 30% on US too, they supported outright nazis during Maidan which led to some real discontent in the east, which was abused by Russia to start the war.
All of these dictators are on russia…assad is in the list
Still magnitudes less bad than US shit. Look at the list of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change,except for like 5 countries during WW2 it's mostly fascist dictators being installed.
Sounds kinda like you are excusing them
Re-read all my messages. I am not excusing russia. I am just clarifying that the issues with the US are not due to Russia, they are due to the system of surplus value extraction and imperialism which has been around for its entire existence. Focusing on russia and russian influence will not help you at all, in much the same way as deporting immigrants won't help the MAGAts.
Current russian dictatorship is the shittiest since late-stage stalinism, but trump and republicans were not elected "on behalf of russia", they were elected on behalf of your own billionaires trying to gain influence and extract more profit.
this entire thread has been you excusing them with whataboutism of the USA
This thread is about a meme blaming neocon fascism, the most american thing in existence, on russia.
Your culture is so obsessed with the red scare bullshit that a twisted version of it now percolated into liberal or even progressive circles, which is really convenient for the ruling class. Open your eyes, know your main enemy.
Do you think there's anything "united" left about that clusterfuck between Canada and Mexico?
Yea, I do. We're not at a civil war yet and people are waking up to the fascist lies and trying to turn the ship around. Can't exactly say that for russia, which the majority of support the war in Ukraine still.
Well - from the outside it certainly doesn't look united anymore. And your comparison does not make sense. Russia neither has a civil war ongoing for now, nor are the average citizens discernibly any less or any more brainwashed than in the divided states.
And from a European perspective, both are threatening our continent & freedoms.
We're still able to call out our politicians and protest without falling out of a window or being meat fodder for an invasion.
That is no longer true for many people. Just that they don't fall out a window, they get murdered by rabid pedo-criminal supporters, or shot by "police" or deported by ICE. And being meat fodder for invasions has been the fate of many people from low income sectors for decades. Only that the divided states have mostly focused on invading countries who could not fight back.
Compared to china/russia/NK it's %100 true. I can still protest, and do. Stop acting like the USA has lost everything just because we have a clown show going on.
Only a Sith deals in absolutes. If you think 100% anything is a thing in state forms, you are very gullible. I am not acting like the divided states shithole regime has anything, I am observing what is happening. Even in Western Europe, protestors suffer from police violence - in the divided states, more often than not, such violence is lethal.
That's happened throughout history, but it never was a tiananmen square level event. So let's stop trying to compare the USA/EU to russia and china on freedom of protest or anything else. We can still protest without worrying about having the military run us over with tanks.
You are delusional if you think that people in the divided states are significantly more free than they are in Russia or China. But that just shows the media brainwashing is working well. Our (I intentionally include Europe here) crimes against humanity are just committed elsewhere and reported upon differently. Thinking we are better off is us functioning "as intended" so we don't actually do something about it.
ROFL yeah I'm the one brainwashed. You literally think russians or chinese are more free than us lol.
One is sending their people into a meat grinder to be killed...and the other has social credits and forced "re-education camps" of uyghurs.
Lol yes I'm the one eating propaganda
Fucking tankies
You can't even grasp the semantics of an English sentence. How about you work on that before engaging in arguments?
Don't forget the 16 million ppl dying from USAID being cut
Yes because pulling aid is the same as a forced famine.
"Forced famine" lol
Holodomor
Go back to reading RT articles like they're facts lol
Unlike you I actually have read about it, a famine occuring in a region plagued by recurring famines for all of recorded history lol, try harder
Bahahahaha yea that's it. Wasn't russia at all rofl
I'm right, cry about it
Kk kid
Cope
I mean... people are dead and we could have done something about it. It's the same picture to me bc the result is the same: "We're not taking care of each other well."
One is literally killing people because you hate them. The other is pulling aid you were providing out of caring. Not even the same thing.
Removing the aid is bullshit and needs to be put back in place.
But let's not compare it to a forced famine.
Lol anything's possible when you make shit up kiddo
Rich coming from someone who's got the mind of a child to think communism is the best thing ever, and it'll work this time. Lol
"It'll work this time" lol if people like you made the decisions we would have given up on inventing planes, you're a coward and a fool
Go tankie somewhere else. You're just maga wearing a hammer and sickle. You types think communism will work this time cause you'll be in charge. Bad news champ, you'll be digging ditches.
"conservatives and communists are the same" lol you're politically illiterate, cope
Kk kid
Log off and go read a book
Lol you nearly have half the amount of comments I do in 9 months time when it took me almost 3 years to make the amount I have. Sounds like you need to go touch grass kid, it's not healthy being online so much.
And? Your comments are stupid, I'm grateful that there are less of them but you're clearly not equipped to participate in discussion or give advice on anything
Lol ok kid
Weak, try harder
Red Scare 22.0
Despite the fact that Russia has been 0% red for the past 35 years or so.
Yep.
When libs keep using "Ruzzia" the same way Nazis were using "Judeo-Bolshevism" 90 years ago, it's useful to refer to historical episodes even if they don't perfectly parallel
But the Russians aren't commies anymore, and the right wing aren't the ones telling us to be afraid of them this time.
Which makes it all the more ridiculous.
you mean like how NSPM-7 does it to suit the needs of the Russian christofascists or like how your persecution fetish makes your pp hard when you feel personally attacked?
Hmm, I wonder where russian oligarchs imported christofascism from back in the 90s. Could it be the same country that nazis used as inspiration back in the late 30s?
Face it, you have plenty of billionaires spouting propaganda and buying elections at home, no need for any foreign influence.
it's always a tankie making excuses.
Delusional
None of this is simple, and anyone blaming a single source or calling it simple is trying to mislead.
The USA
- Over throws the Russian government
- Throws an election and installs a president
- American oligarchs work with Russian oligarchs and leaders to subject the Russian people shock therapy
- A US ally takes control and US works with him for years
- The US literally takes billions of their dollars and freeze their access to accounts and access to global finance and doesn't return it or roll it back
- The Russians continually try and reestablish ties to get their cash back and fail
- The Russians are drawn into a war of attrition against the US and have to switch to a war economy just to survive
- Despite somehow controlling the USA, still haven't gotten access to international capital or their own money
US libs:
OMG THE RUSSIANS TOOK OVER
Americans are so dumb it is unbelievable. You're fucking them hard right now and you think they took over? You're just salty your shit ass government is doing to you what you did to my family.
When You call the other side crazy so you don't n have to debate them....and just keep loosing elections and supporters 🥱
Yeah, we have loose elections based off of the insane corporate $$ influence.
Have you seen anyone “debate” them?
They don’t “debate”. And since you don’t know that I assume you’re from one of the old countries where that’s still a thing?
I know it shouldn't respond to you, but..... its more like should you consider some of the other sides points vs saying they bad we good. H More than half the country is right wing now because the left is so unpalatable and exhausting.
We gotta stop loosing elections and calling everyone nazis. More and more the left is loosing needlessly because of echo chamber bs.
This is pure treasonous disinformation meant to subjugate Americans to false fears, and steal their prosperity.
Zionist supremacism not Russia is responsible for our political corruption. That one or 2 Russian click farms in 2016 amplified GOP message, did not change election outcome, and pales in comparison to propaganda and corruption CIA runs in foreign countries to create anti-Russia puppets.
Anyone pathethic, stupid, and demonically hateful to think future prosperity requires perpetuating and intensifying war on Russia is being gaslight and bodysnatched to support the most Zionist, Neocon, Warmonger the DNC will oppress you with.
Oh no, this is what conservatives are.
I don't see why it can't be both. If their interests align, they'd sure welcome the collaboration. Like, didn't Trump openly call for Russia to investigate his political opponents in his "Russia, if you're listening..." speech? Aren't the Trumps and other media talking heads being funded by Russian sponsors as well?
You can make the same point about Democrat leadership with their Pied Piper strategy and funding of Trump back before the 2016 elections. But you won't see "tankies" saying that Trump works for Hillary because that's a dumb ass ridiculous take. Trump works for the US oligarch class and shares every geopolitical point with Biden, thats why democrats just voted for an additional billion dollars in funding to the US miltary.
But you won’t see “tankies” saying that Trump works for Hillary because that’s a dumb ass ridiculous take
That's not analogous to what I'm saying. It's also no the first time I hear someone cite Hillary's shady campaign strategy as if it's proportionate to the money laundering and bribing scheme happening in Trump's golf courses for decades.
It's well-known that Russia has invested on both conservatives and democrats to promote US infighting and sow discord. My point is that it doesn't matter who Russia is funding if they're meeting their goals in the end. The fact of the matter is that there is still meddling going on and there's proof of this. The only difference is that conservatives seem more openly receptive.
I've seen some YouTubers say that FAFO isn't going to get them to start voting Democrat.
I honestly don't think they ever will ... so at the very least I think they should feel the pain that they've caused. I don't give a fuck if I can change their minds at this point. I don't know how to reprogram a cult member and it's galling to put that on me anyways.
Yeah I don’t know why people find this so hard to understand. It’s about identity, not issues. People who identify as Republican who have voted Republican all their lives and whose families have voted Republican for generations aren’t gonna start voting Democrat. The best you can hope for is that they stay home on election day.
Labeling everyone as ‘traitors’ might feel satisfying, but it kills any chance of persuasion. Better to stick to specific actions/evidence and hold those accountable.
we need a revolution to stop trump - the hardest part is convincing most republicans about the truth about trump. seriously!
Now that's a way to offend a Russian. Look, you've even made Yulia cry
Honestly, I'd rather be called kacap, moskal and ruzky all day than be in any way associated with the maga crowd.
What to me will never stop being funny is that the group that was the most anti-red, the group that would happily end someone's carreer over some faint implied relationship to Russians, that always was the self proclaimed redski hunter, the group that always talked about bombing some freedom into dictators...
That group
That group is the same group that now went fully behind a fascist dictator wannabe who is controlled by a Russian actual dictator
It goes to show, this group, the Republicans, the conservatives, they have no ethics or morals, the leaders will say or do anything to stay in power, lie, steal, cheat, and their supporters are mostly either dumb or racist, mostly both
And they'll never stop making sure you know what they're thinking, they are the prototype loud mouthed arrogant "we're number one babey, yeeaaaahhh!!!!!!" Americans
Fucking pathetic
Statesians blaming foreigners for the most Statesian things, a tale as old as the US Empire.
What are you rebellious colonies up to now
So many Russian misinfo apologists itt
They’re literally turning America into Russia and the bootlicks are cheering it on calling it “manly” when cucking for a makeup wearing pedofile is the least “manly” thing one can do….pathetic
You should have to pass an iq test before being allowed to post.
Make your own lemmy instance and show us how its done! The beauty of the fediverse...
How’d you get in? Know somebody?
Thanks for saying this. I wish more people would. There's been a coordinated attack on your country, and the responses in this comment section range from apathy to dismissal to victim-blaming.
Fight back!
Tankies hit this thread hard, you said something bad about ruzzia. Tankies to the defense!
be fucking serious right now. this is not "saying something bad about russia", it’s squarely putting all the blame of america being shit on a foreign country.
like no, i think the reason the us is fascist now has more to do with the economic interests of billionaires as well as the racial interests of white colonizers than it has with foreign interference.
stop acting like your country was a perfect haven of progress and was perverted by external forces. the usa has always been awful, it’s just that its ideological rot has just been made more obvious to you now.
The EU which is often shown as the most progressive countries on the planet, has right wing bullshit coming in hard core. You gonna suggest that's just internal and not foreign actors pushing the division?
Never said the usa was a perfect haven of anything. I'm pointing out that russia has had a big role in creating division in countries for a while now, not just in the USA. Then you have a bunch of tankies coming out with "but usa" deflection.
The EU which is often shown as the most progressive countries on the planet
europe is responsible for perhaps the greatest crime in human history, and still benefitting from it, but, sure. the rise of the far right is because of russia. suuuuuure.
Yea because those people are still alive today still taking over other countries...
Ever heard about what France is doing in Africa right now? Or who bought up most of the corporations and rights to mine precious resources in Ukraine? Or how the entire global order is organised?
Yea cause china and russia aren't doing shit in Africa. Lol
"Whatabout the thing the other guy might be doing" pathetic
Kk kid
Lol try harder
The EU which is often shown as the most progressive countries on the planet
Are you fucking kidding me? Have you completely erased the Palestinian genocide from your mind? Europe is ACTIVELY FUNDING A GENOCIDE. What in the fuck are you talking about
That has nothing to do with being progressive or not champ.
SuPpOrTiNg A gEnOcIdE iS so pRoGrEsSiVe
China -uyghurs...tankies - not genocide
Russia - Circassian...tankies -not genocide
I'll say it again, supporting Israel is shit, but that doesn't magically make the EU less progressive.
"Europe is very progressive because I've made up a genocide in China!"
You're also sorely mistaken if you think tankies consider Russia progressive.
Lol fucking tankies
Genocidal pos
Lol man I really touched a nerve with you kid. To go hunting down my old posts like this. Do you have other things to do?
You're an evil piece of shit.
Yawn
How do u live with yourself siding with the people who bomb schoolgirls?
How do you live with yourself being a tankie troll?
the only ones whining about tankies are stupid redditor. That doesn't exist irl, idiot.
i know people who died of american bombs and you're there bringing your first world know-it-allness explaining that people of iran just like to get bombed because brown people are bad. You're too stupid to realize how much of dumb racist you are.
heartless piece of shit
Lol man I really touched a nerve with the 12 year old troll didn't I?
You think you're the only one who has had someone die because of war? Grow up child.
war? they were genocided by the people currently bombing iran, fuckhead
Yea and where have I ever said I agree with Israel and their genocide? Kid
Are you listening, asshole? I know people who died? Fuck you, you heartless scum. You think this is a game, brainwashed?
Please go troll someone else kid
Better use internet slang as a mechanism of defense about a fellow human telling you to your face you're an evil person innit? TanKie TroLL
K kid
Get a job
K kid
Try harder halfwit
K
Try harder halfwit
On your deathbed, think about me and remember you've been a shitty person.
I won't even think about your troll ass after I type this comment.
Repeating yourself
Another troll follower. Man I'm popular here. Did toad tell you about me, how much he loves to follow me around? Lol
I've been here dumbass
You hang out watching posts that are 3 months old?
Top of the list for new comments because of you, dumbass
Lol sure thing
Yes actually I am sure that sorting by new comments shows posts that people have recently commented on, you would be too if you had a halfway working brain
Naa most sort by top 12 or 6 hours...no one does on new comments...but you do you kid.
Lol cope
Lol you're not beating the allegations like that
Lol ok kid
Try harder halfwit
K kid
Try harder halfwit
Delusional
Wrong
You gonna suggest that’s just internal and not foreign actors pushing the division?
Yes! Because all of these countries are experiencing similar economic conditions, and ideologies are driven by material conditions!
Lol yea and russia and china are the victims got it. Tankie somewhere else
I'm sorry that reality has a tankie bias.
ROFL
You tankies only exist on the net because anyone who hears the shit that you spew out of your mouths in the real world just take you for insane people.
You're losing and you know it, online and in real life
Not really bro, maybe in your weirdo head you're winning but to all of us your a loser
"All of us" lol
Lol ok kid
Try harder
The EU which is often shown as the most progressive countries on the planet, has right wing bullshit coming in hard core. You gonna suggest that’s just internal and not foreign actors pushing the division?
That is the inevitable decline of capitalism into its natural end stage.
We're right as usual, cry about it patriot
Will do tankie
I know
Right?