EU supports US invasion of Venezuela by claiming Maduro is an illegitimate president. Refuses to call the US invasion illegitimate.
5mon 15d ago by lemmy.ml/u/geneva_convenience in europe@lemmy.ml from lemmy.ml
I mean Trump is an illegitimate president, also a convicted felon with countless bankruptcies, child sex trafficking,attempted destruction of evidence, impending due justice, election tampering, too much more to list.
Germany certainly is, since at least 1939!
we had west & best germany for a while tho...
Lapdogs of the empire.
Isn't it ironic that you're paid by it? NLnet foundation is founded by the EU.
Countries and organizations are not monoliths. Even in the US, the last polls showed that 70% of the people did not want a war with Venezuela.
I'd bet the number of EU citizens that oppose their neoliberal leaders support for the US empire and its wars is even higher.
"Maybe if we appease The Diaper, he'll stop shitting on everyone?"
Appeasement is always tried against Hitlers. Never seems to work though.
It's amazing how Trump can just rip the mask off and scream "we're gonna steal their oil!" and pigshit fucking liberals will hem and haw about Maduro's legitimacy.
Not a fan of maduro, really really not a fan of this. If killing incompetent or illegitimate leaders is okay, he's nowhere near the top of the list.
It is shameful how our politicians provide cover for these monsters. It is an absolute disgrace and an expression of how cowardly and weak our governments are.
We urgently need to break away from this mafia state, but our so-called representatives bow down to the orange child molester and his god-damned Nazi crew. Disgusting!
What legitimacy has the Saud family? Or any of the other dictatorships the EU and the US gives support?
Well, you see, the US supports them. That makes them legitimate regimes of legitimate states.
Vassal states support the empire. š¤·
Viva Maduro. The US Empire is kidnapping a democratically elected president and his family in order to gain ownership of Venezuelan oil fields. The vassals in Europe only care that their master needs consent manufacturing, but the good working people around the world can see right through this naked terrorism and those that support it.
May the empire and its vassals fall.
Maduro won 52% of the vote, Gonzalez got 43%. Simple as that.
Russia's capacity to help is very limited, unlike the US Empire they don't have hundreds of overseas millitary bases. The Monroe Doctrine means that unless Russia wanted to give Venezuela nukes, like they did for Cuba back when Russia was socialist, Latin Americans are mostly relying on their own power.
Not sure why you're bringing up Russia, though, I never expected they would help and didn't mention them because of that. Maybe some arms shipments, but that's about it.
Cowards
The EU's lacklusture response to the invasion of Vanezuela sets a bad precendent. What's the EU position going to be when the US invades Canada or Mexico because of "fentanyl coming over the border" or decides Denmark is a narco-state and invades Greenland?
The reasons for the US invading Venezuela because "narcotics" was complete bullshit and anyone with a half brain should be calling it out.
The EU has always been vassalized in the US Empire. it isn't particularly surprising. They realize that it's awful, but they benefit from it so they support it.
It's only continuing the precedent that supporting the Gaza genocide set
Kaja "Russia and China didn't play a big part in WW2" Kallas. Spokesperson of US puppet Europe.
EU has always supported invasion of the Americas, this is no different day.
Colonialism, in the end, stems from Europe and the root of evil must be killed there.
not all EU though, I remember the time when Chirac said fuck off to Bush (for Iraq) and then they had liberty fries instead of French Fries for a while, but appart from that I guess that it is sadly true...
Iraq is not in the Americas tho...
oh... I missed that part, so yeah...
International law is dead, Kaja.
Hey now. We don't know that. Let's see what happens when the Venezuelans shoot back or next time anyone in Africa pulls some shit before we go declaring that.
I knew the fix was in for Venezuela when the oligarchs bought the Nobel prize committee.
Colonialism is a team sport.
Canada did the same. Every government that disagrees with NATO establishment is an illegitimate autocratic dictator according to NATO.... by coincidence. There is never any evidence of fraud. Only massive CIA/NGO funding of destabilization that people must be forced to accept, or vote is illegtimate.
Ben Norton's rant on Venezuela and recent Latin America situations today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnD0p5F7MNs&pp=ygUbZ2VvcG9saXRpY2FsIGVjb25vbXkgcmVwb3J0
Ahhhh the castrated EU, let stream of absolute useless statements begin, next the UN backs the invasion of sovereign country to bring peace and prosperity to its people, the perfect recipe for all the good things happening in the great world we live in
Kallas only knows how to be tough on Russia; aggression from Israel or the USA is great for her, even when the European Union is the target, she is weak and pusillanimous.
Gods, beyond sickening and obscene and I know there will be people who will champion her stance with glee. There really isn't any hope left for Europe.
And then people don't understand why the rest of the world don't care about Russias war on Ukraine.
Of course its KKKaja KKKallaSS
the eu is illegitimate. i didn't vote for them, effectively no one did. they decide without consultation. is it ok to kidnap their politicians now?
You didn't? I voted in 2024.
You voted for their leadership.
Funny thing about voting, your pick doesn't necessarily win
I wouldn't pick any of these fucks, and all of them just do creep towards fascism at varying speeds when they win. Death to schumer (I'm in America).
The whole concept of decision making elites, even if elected, is fucked and antidemocratic.
Iām not crazy about EU and there are certainly parts of it that are dodgy, but we do actually vote our EU representatives, the fact that you personally didnāt doesnāt mean itās illegitimate.
Does that mean Britain was right to vote for Brexit? I thought that was universally seen as a dumb move on par with voting for Trump.
for their own material conditions? pretty dumb move.
This, if the eu member states were advocating for the global well being of all peoples it would be pretty smart to all vote leave at the expense of their own material conditions. This would allow the peoples of the member states to actually vote for anti-imperialist policies (they probably wouldnt, but assuming we were actually collectively advocating for global well being) and to see that the capitalist class wouldnt enact such policies without a struggle.
Death to EU, death to USA. All support to to the bolivarian movement against imperialism.
None of those things, thank you.
Yes to all of these things, imperialist.
fascist
There is no evidence it was rigged.
This article is over a decade old. That was his first election. There have been several elections since, and he's had the ability to rule by decree for basically a decade now.
There's no evidence that he stole the last election either, he's a popularly supported left wing president that the working classes love. The compradors and fascists like Machado and Guaido that the US Empire continues to support are very unpopular. The US Empire is trying to do the same thing they did when Trump claimed 2020 was stolen.
Consider providing evidence proving his latest election was rigged.
I did some searching and found this, which seems to be a pretty good source?
https://muse.jhu.edu/article/947882
I don't think any country should remove another country's president under any circumstances, though.
Johns Hopkins University Press
You'd be hard pressed to find more extreme US propaganda sources. The way they start off their article gives it all away already.
I don't care enough about this discussion, so no. I'm just pointing out that the article is basically useless since it's from the election that was the least likely to be influenced and was also quite a while ago.
So people can just throw out claims without evidence and when they get debunked they get to make the same claim over and over again?
They didn't make the initial claims, they were just pointing out that your source was questionably relevant given it's age. Nobody has re-presented any debunked claims here.
sigh
No, the conditions are just not the same. Chavez was actually popular, whereas Maduro's rule has been marked by civil unrest for a number of reasons, but one of the main is the absurd inflation rate. Some of these problems were inherited and just got way worse when he took power, but he hasn't fixed them, so that he keeps winning elections is more than a little suspicious.
Venezuela is among the top countries for economic growth in the last year. They aren't without problems, but Maduro was doing well.
Why is there massive inflation? (hint US)
And? Are you saying most people are gonna keep voting for the status quo in such a situation just to stick it to the US? Is it somehow justified if a ruling government rigs elections or something similar simply because they are in opposition to the US government? You realize the world isn't just black and white, right?
So did half the world leaders, even excluding the ones appointment by divine law.....
It just makes it acceptable when we kill Trump and his family, who are also illegitimate
Yeah, no surprise.
Let's see what she will say when the US fleet will come to Greenland.
It's conveniently illegitimate then?
I expect a ton of down votes for this, but here we go.
The EU needs to gain power through independence before providing a different response. The complicated task will be to protect and solidify personal liberty in the process.
The strongest players want the EU to disperse because they know, that this is the best way to keep criticism at bay. The problem is that the EU is in it's design deeply undemocratic and non European but nationalistic...
The EU needs to gain power through independence before providing a different response. The complicated task will be to protect and solidify personal liberty in the process.
Yeah, what should we do? Sanctions on the US? We are more dependent on US then they are on Europe so that will backfire massively. The best is probably to work on independence from US, for example we are very dependent on the payment processors which are American.
The EU has been saying that for like decades though and they never do. At this point their "powerlesness" is just a shield they use to waive away responsibility.
This post title is completely misleading. Kallas explicitly says that international law and the UN Charter must be respected - nothing about endorsing any invasion. She is saying the opposite.
From the UN Charter (Article 2(4)):
All Members shall refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state.
According to Kaja Kallas twit, "Mr. Maduro lacks legitimacy and [the EU] has defended a peaceful transition". In my book, this means support to the USA invasion/special operation.
Edit: typo
How is bombing military facilities and kidnapping the president a peaceful transition?
I would love to read the answer of Kaja Kallas to that question.
The EU has repeatedly stated that Maduro lacks legitimacy and has defended a peaceful transition. A āpeaceful transitionā is not a military operation. In EU language it means elections, negotiations, and constitutional processes. Illegitimacy does not equal a green light for foreign force.
- Be a legitimate democracy because it is controlled by CIA
- Declare illegitimacy without evidence, because communist countries must be sanctioned and persecuted.
- Kill or kidnap said leaders.
- Promote peaceful, rules based order, transition to CIA approved leader.
How about 19 packets of sanctions against USA?
By my math, (-1: illegitimate president) + (-1: illegal state intervention) = (-2: illegal shit)
If your math is a little more lenient: (-1: illegitimate president) - (-1: illegal state intervention) = (0: sketchy shit)
Either way, this is in line with shit the US has been doing since... well, forever. "Peace president" and "America first" my hiney.
Maduro is a legitimate president, this was straight up an act of imperialism to secure Venezuelan oil fields and try to install fascist compradors, it's the same thing they did with Allende and Pinochet, only this time the millitary supports Maduro.
By my math, (-1: illegitimate president) Ć (-1: illegal state intervention) = (-1: illegal shit)
By your own maths: -1 x -1 = 1 (which in guessing would mean legal shit?)
Oh yeah I messed that one up š
Fixed!
Where's the refusal mentioned in the title?
In the picture.
Do you know what "a refusal" is?
Right?! We're just ignoring the rest of the attacks on Venezuelans and assuming we've collectively exhausted all the diplomatic options?
Everything is about russia to you racist liberals. When the US bombs a country and kidnaps its leaders, it somehow has to be blamed on russia.
He wasnāt legitimate
More legitimate than what the US is up to.
About the same
Nope.
Guess Zelensky isn't a legitimate president either, now Russia gets to invade Ukraine!
No, legitimacy depends on how much you kowtow towards the US.
What do you mean? Zelensky's term has long ended.
From what I understand, the Ukrainian constitution does not allow (national) elections under martial law. It also doesn't allow amending the constitution under martial law either IIRC, so basically Zelenskyy is president until martial law ends.
The martial law which he himself declares.
Same schtick different justification.
Given that it's allowed by their constitution, you can't really say it's illegitimate. You may not like it, but it's perfectly in line with Ukraine's laws.
Also, if there's ever a time to declare martial law, it's when your country is actively being invaded.
Okay cool so Putin and Xi are also legitimate because they were clearly allowed to changed their own laws.
Pretty sure the point is they had to change them to be allowed to continue ruling, whereas Zelenksyy just used the existing laws and constitution as-is.
The Chinese constitution for example was change by Deng Xiaoping, guy right before Xi and then changed back by Xi. Not much of a 'constitution'.
The point is that you're taking an arbitrary condition which applies to Russia and China and doesn't apply to Ukraine. But similar arguments of Zelensky staying in power usin martial law can be made. Zelensky is extremely unpopular in Ukraine currently and would almost certainly lose elections if they were held.
The Chinese constitution for example was change by Deng Xiaoping, guy right before Xi and then changed back by Xi. Not much of a 'constitution'.
? I can't tell if you're saying that Deng Xiaoping was the guy in charge right before Xi (which is just wrong since he died like 30 years ago), or if it was changed by him and the guy before Xi (in which case you could have just named him...), but either way, I'm not sure how this supports your point. Really, all it does is make China's laws sound arbitrary. In any case, the fact Xi did have to remove the term limits added to the constitution in the 80s is the point.
The point is that you're taking an arbitrary condition which applies to Russia and China and doesn't apply to Ukraine. But similar arguments of Zelensky staying in power usin martial law can be made. Zelensky is extremely unpopular in Ukraine currently and would almost certainly lose elections if they were held.
I feel like this is a pointless argument, but using the existing constitution and laws to declare martial law while in a war on your own soil is very different from arbitrarily changing the constitution of your country to allow you to rule forever. If the war ends and he remains in power, then it will be a different story.
If we are going for the Carl Schmitt approach, then yes, China's constitution has been amended legitimately. As for Ukraine, it is difficult to see how that country should not been under martial law since it has been in a hot war since early 2022. Also, how do you organise free and open elections in the territories that are being occupied by the imperialist aggressor Russia?
I'm ashamed to admit that it took me this long down the thread, to realize that this is a lemmy.ml community.
Really? it wasn't your cognitive dissonance?
How is Zelensky not a legitimate head of state? He won his election without rigging.
He isn't since April 2024 and is using martial law to keep himself in power despite not being able to sue for peace
Thatās literally the claim theyād been making since 2014.
US is playing by the Russian playbook right now. And EU decided to play along.
Where did Putin say "We're gonna take the oil! We're gonna grab it and take it!"?
Where does Trump claim that Venezuela is part the US, that it's like an independent Texas overrun with Chinese puppet president suppressing the areas of Texas left where people still want to be part of the US and that is worried on whether nukes will be placed in those areas?
Russia did invade and has tried to multiple times to assasinate him
Bolivia, Honduras, Cuba, Nicaragua, Russia, China, DPRK, Syria, and many more recognized Maduro officially. Further, Mexico, Colombia, etc that expressed caution initially did end up attending Maduro's innaguration and expressed their congratulations. There's no evidence that Maduro did not win the election.
Further, Maduro was not a dictator. Venezuela has a strong left organization at the grassroots level, supported by the state. The fascists that the US Empire planted there like Machado are certainly going to try a coup, but the people's millitias likely will not let that happen, and will instead rally around the government.
By legitimizing the empire's lies, you're supporting their narrative that Venezuela is some hellhole yearning for the US empire to liberate them, and not a budding socialist country in the empire's backyard.
MOE is partnered with the National Endowment for Democracy, an anti-communist consent manufacturing machine of the US Empire, as well as with the EU. It's headquartered in Colombia, which is well-known for US presence. This "evidence" is zilch.
He absolutely was legitimate, the US tried to manufacture consent to overthrow Maduro the same way Trump tried to claim the 2020 election was stolen. This is the same people, same playbook.
Bolivia, Honduras, Cuba, Nicaragua, Russia, China, DPRK, Syria, and many more recognized Maduro officially. Further, Mexico, Colombia, etc that expressed caution initially did end up attending Maduro's innaguration and expressed their congratulations. There's no evidence that Maduro did not win the election.
Further, Maduro was not a dictator. Venezuela has a strong left organization at the grassroots level, supported by the state. The fascists that the US Empire planted there like Machado are certainly going to try a coup, but the people's millitias likely will not let that happen, and will instead rally around the government.
By legitimizing the empire's lies, you're supporting their narrative that Venezuela is some hellhole yearning for the US empire to liberate them, and not a budding socialist country in the empire's backyard.
MOE is partnered with the National Endowment for Democracy, an anti-communist consent manufacturing machine of the US Empire, as well as with the EU. It's headquartered in Colombia, which is well-known for US presence. This "evidence" is zilch.
Can we not have disinformation posts like these? Kallas' response could have been stronger, correct, but she certainly implied that it was an illegitimate invasion.
No, she weaseled. As shitlibs do.
Weaseling is what diplomats get paid for. So, le meh.
she certainly implied that it was an illegitimate invasion.
Where?
"Under all circumstances, the principles of international law and the UN Charter must be respected. We call for restraint."
Which is diplomat-speak for "can you please knock it off?"
There's a clear difference in how she speaks about Maduro's legitimacy and the invasion's legitimacy. Why the double standard?
You can't include why you are a worthless piece of shit with demonic baseless views that justify the outcome in the same sentence that you express vague mild concern about the means to that outcome. Doing so, makes the vague concern less credible.
Because both the EU's internal dynamics and its current dependency on the USA does not allow for speaking more clearly than this. This is about as good as it gets. Not a pretty sight on form, on substance she basically is treating them pretty similar. Am more livid on Von der Leyen preventing to call out Israel on its ongoing genocide than on this one.
Then how is this post disinformation? Because of what you said, the EU's internal dynamics and its current dependency on the US, Kalla refused to condemn the invasion or call it illegitimate. The title is completely accurate. What disinformation?
The fact that there's context behind this fact doesn't make it wrong.
It is wrong in the sense that merely bringing up the need to adhere to international law and non-violence is, in that context, the same thing as saying this is illegitimate.
It's literally not the same, she chose her words carefully to specifically not call it illegitimate (because of the EU's internal dynamics and its current dependency on the US) and calling it "disinformation" to point this out is some serious double-think.
In between all the tankie Sputnik and RT posts here? Yes, because it suggests that she effectively legitimised it while she went out of her way not to do so is misrepresenting it.
She did. She calls Maduro illegitimate and then doesn't call the invasion illegitimate, giving the invasion legitimacy by contrast. There's context behind why she's doing that, which we discussed, but that doesn't change the fact that she's helping manufacture consent for regime change by her mealymouthed omission.
To me it fundamentally reads like "Maduro is illegitimate" equals -5 and what the US is doing is violating international norms (yes, we still are pretending those exist) and that equals -3, and they are both negatives. But now we are arguing perception, which may be less than useful.
To me it reads like "we somewhat disagree with the US's methods but we strongly agree with the US's objectives" and isn't that just the most typical European thing? Never strongly condemning anything, because really, they got what they wanted even if it's distasteful.
Heh, as a European, that is pretty spot on.
Weird how she didn't do diplomat speak for Maduro and directly called for him to be replaced.
A position the EU has taken since.... last year? See https://www.politico.eu/article/european-union-not-recognize-venezuela-election-result-nicolas-maduro/
So, you could hardly expect her to diverge from that earlier position.
US colonies also supported Guaido.
No it isn't. "Restraint" means, "you can keep doing that, but chill the fuck out a little bit"
Your brain on imperialism
I'm just saying he wasn't a popular fella, so less people care. That's just how it goes
Maduro is popularly supported in Venezuela by the working classes. The compradors the US Empire has installed like Machado are deeply unpopular.
I'm talking about Europe though. (This is c/Europe)
Europeans should care, considering the active support of the US empire's vassals.
I don't think many Europeans feel the same
They should, if they have any decency.
Most probably don't agree with that either tbh. Not that what we think people should do matters or changes anything
People can protest and boycott, or disrupt millitary production.
I mean yeah they could. But doubt that's happening.
If it happened for Palestine then it should happen for Venezuela.
I don't mind being the outlet for the wishful thinking but I don't really have anything to reply with that hasn't already been said, just so you know if I don't respondĀ
It's more a call to action than wishful thinking.
I inow I'm being a downer but same difference.
Not really? Calling to action helps facilitate action, wishcasting is like saying I really hope Maduro doesn't get executed. Hopes do nothing, actions do.
You're hoping that your call to action actually results in action. Without the action it is exactly the same as far as real world consequences are concerned.
Sure, but wishcasting doesn't have any call to action, and remaining silent doesn't have that same facilitative effect. The first step is rallying the people, the second is action.
I wish you luck
I think there's people seeing this American SMO and do give a shit about how blatantly imperialist this is
I didn't say nobody cares. Just that less people care