Couple left with $200k bill after baby born in US
3mon 26d ago by lemmus.org/u/Beep in nottheonion from www.bbc.co.uk
A couple were told they faced a $200,000 (£146,500) medical bill when their baby was born prematurely in the US, despite them having travel insurance which covered her pregnancy.
Do not travel to the US
why would you go there??? this couple was asking for it
Did you see how they were dressed my god
If i take a boat and sail to a known cannibal island, where people like me have gone and been eaten before, and I then get eaten, there's no one to blame but me. The US is simply not a good place to travel to at this time. It would have been even more hell for them if they had to over stay their visa.
It would have been even more hell for them if they had to over stay their visa.
I mean, they may have got a free beating plane ticket home.
The baby though, that's a natural born US citizen. That's staying here.
The problem in this story wasn’t actually the US this time, it was the Swiss insurance company.
I would say the problem also was a very high medical bill of $ 200k.
Yes. You're right. Our healthcare system is absolutely bonkers bananas insane, and that's before you calculate in the cruelty. And as US citizen, I strongly advise everyone who isn't to avoid this country like the plague.
However, if I travel to Switzerland or Canada or Italy or wherever, as a tourist, I am not covered if I go in the hospital. I still need to carry travel insurance, and if I don't, or if it doesn't cover something, then those countries with their modern, sensible healthcare systems will charge me out of pocket, just like an American hospital. The difference is that in America, even the citizens aren't covered by default, and the amounts are astronomical compared to other countries.
It's a shitty system all around, and frankly, I genuinely believe that if it weren't for America's weird fetish for as much money as you can possibly choke on, we would probably have started building an actual universal healthcare system for the global community, so that you're covered by default even when traveling. But like with most things, the right wing nonsense has held us so far back that that is so unlikely as to seem utterly impossible
Yes if you come here to Danmark from the US you will not be covered. But if you are from a country in the EU you will in most cases be covered and don't have to pay anything for being hospitalized.
Even if you do have to pay something, the cost Ive seen people post in europe are in the hundreds/thousands, not hundreds of thousands like the US.
Maybe this couple woukd have gotten a $200/2000 bill in the EU for a birth? $200,000 is a purely US problem.
It's complicated, because it's American healthcare.
The hospital charges $200k. The insurance agrees to pay a negotiated discounted rate of $100k. $75k goes to the various insurance plans of the doctors and hospital. $15k goes to the people providing care and materials costs (everything is itemized, so then $50 aspirin you see is because it includes the time of the pharmacy tech who got the order, entered it into the system and checked for interactions, the tech who filled the order, the pharmacist who had to sign off on it, and the nurse who carried it to the patient.). $10k goes to the hospital as profit.
The insurance then makes the patient pay their $5000 deductible, which is what you pay before the insurance you pay for pays for anything, then the patient pays their $2500 coinsurance, which is what you pay after the insurance you pay for starts to pay for things but they only pay for half. After that the insurance covers it. The "perk" is that having met your deductible and coinsurance costs you likely have to pay little or nothing for care for the rest of the calendar year, making January to most financially responsible time to have a medical emergency.
In terms of actual "cost", I think the biggest difference is the itemization of everything. Universal healthcare is intrinsically more cost efficient, but it still has to pay doctors and nurses. When that cost is viewed as part of the cost of running a hospital as opposed to part of the service "charged" to the patient it can bring the "list price" down a lot. You end up with the price of a broken arm being the cost to treat a broken arm, not then cost to treat a broken arm and have everyone involved show up and your share of building the hospital room, and the cost of the janitor cleaning the room.
making January to most financially responsible time to have a medical emergency
Extremely well said, and an extremely sad thing to say, the system that makes you plan your medical emergencies is perfectly balanced, indeed
NICUs are capital and professional labor intensive. I got to meet the team of doctors and nurses who kept my son alive and thriving for the three months between birth and due date. Idk what the magic number to care for him should have been, but I don't think six figures is an unfair estimate in any socio-economic system.
The question after that is "Who paid for it?" And, in my case, it was Medicaid, which was a huge relief. These poor bastards clearly didn't have the option.
Why it's so capital intensive is another issue, but the matter of six figures being reasonable is to compare that to costs of similar treatments in other countries (usually it's an order of magnitude more expensive).
Healthcare just can't be free market bcs the demand side cannot be free by definition.
A big part of that is that other countries view to medical staff as a fixed cost. They're not reflected in the "bill", much like how you don't get billed by the fire department. They're simply paid to be there, and costs for treatment are more reflective of the cost of the treatment.
Was likely 2 hours a day actual attended care, 1000 a day, 90k for 3 months, plus rent, food, materials, another 500 a day. That's $135-155k even with conservative care in nicu. In a real nicu that would be 10x
My nephew was also in the nicu for three months, and he cost a million dollars. Also picked up by Medicaid. As much as I hate the US Healthcare system, I will be forever grateful to the united states of America for providing life to my nephew when in any other time or situation he would have just died immediately. He is and continues to be a miracle, a very special, bright boy who just scored a goal for his soccer team this weekend for the first time.
If I'm going to be paying $200,000 for medical procedures then they better be replacing my liver or something. How could a pregnancy possibly cost that much money?
They probably asked 6 grand just for pulling out a splinter.
They were performing there, it's work .
I don’t see how this is the US’ fault. Their insurance, who initially denied them, is with a Zurich company. Do they expect any country they visit to cover them medically?
Maybe I’ll pop over to Berlin if I ever get cancer. Surely they’ll pay for all my treatments even though I’m just a tourist. They aren’t barbarians like the US.
I'm fairly sure in Berlin they won't charge you two hundred thousand fucking dollars for an emergency procedure, but sure, go on strawmanning. What the hell.
Sorry to burst your bubble of USA-hatred but nope. Germany will not decline to treat you but they will bill you. Oh wait… that’s exactly what happened in the US! This was not just an emergency procedure but 3 weeks in the ICU.
This couple’s insurance ultimately decided to pay. So this is a total non story. It would have happened the same in a million places. Tourists do not get major services for free. If they did, people from around the world be showing up with conditions and just reporting straight to the ER and then hop skipping home.
This story was drummed up to tap into people hating on the US for its poor healthcare system. Which is usually valid. But if we judge by whether tourists get free major services, the US isn’t any worse off.
The costs are not comparable, otherwise or healthcare systems would all be bankrupt. And here we don't have the same incentives to inflate costs.
Yes the costs would be different. Perhaps 100,000€ instead of $200,000. The fact remains tourists don’t get free healthcare anywhere.
This is a complete nothingburger of a story. The couple got treatment. Their insurance was billed, exactly as it would have been if they’d been in Canada or Portugal.
Their insurance momentarily denied to cover them. Why aren’t we mad at them? Because this clickbait story was created to stoke a pre-existing “America sucks” narrative and get outrage clicks.
And they seem to have played everyone here perfectly.
Maybe they denied to cover them because of the ridiculously high bill, have you ever thought about that?
Edit: It seems the cost of a normal birth in Germany is at most €7500 for a tourist with no insurance.
Helllllo the baby was 7 weeks premature and in intensive care for 3 weeks. The cost of a normal birth is totally irrelevant. You didn’t read the article, obviously.
I paid literally zero for either of my kids births right here in California.
My grandpa had a peacemaker installed, we received a (paid) bill for the cost of the operation (idk why or how, but I remember my mother showing it to me), it was 36k€. Sure the stay was shorter, but it's also heart surgery on a frail patient with lots of other issues.
How much shorter was the stay? Maybe we can apply some multiplier. At least the example you’re offering is a fully loaded in-and-out final bill, but all this trying to compare the costs of different medical procedures is fumbling in the dark. We know medical costs in the US are higher, and we usually know by how much. The numbers I see in a quick search are $13.4K per capita annually for the US and $9.6k for Switzerland, likely with better outcomes. Was higher costs the reason this couple’s insurance declined them? Maybe. It’s a fair guess, but that’s all. If someone wants to tell me there’s never any back and forth with their EU public health program before a bill gets paid, nor with the private insurance carriers every EU citizen that can afford them also has, then wow, that will have been the best thing I’ve ever heard about healthcare in the EU.
Whether cost was the sole issue would have been a great question for the reporter to ask someone. But as you can see, they don’t even need to work that hard at their job to get the outrage clicks they need.
According to this study, the mean total cost of NICU in the UK for preterm babies at 31 weeks gestation is £27,401 and tourists should get charged the same if I'm reading this correctly.
So no, not even close to $200,000 or even the €100,000 you pulled out of thin air. Clearly this is reason enough to believe the cost of the healthcare in the US is what made the insurance company try to avoid paying. I don't know why you're defending the healthcare cost in the US without even doing a bit of research of how it normally is in Europe where the couple and the insurance company comes from.
Thank you for doing that research. I have done nothing here to defend costs in the US. As you said, even the number I pulled out of thin air was 100% more expensive in the US. Do I owe you some kind of apology for not guessing even worse?
Their baby was born in an American hospital seven weeks early, but the couple said Zurich Insurance Group refused to uphold the policy and cover their costs because the baby was not named in the document.
After a nine month legal battle, Zurich has reversed its decision and told the BBC it was sorry for the stress caused.
The unborn child that isn't allowed to have a name yet needs to be named in the document.
You can just imagine whoever made that decision letting out an evil laugh.
The legal proceedings had more time to mature than the baby lol
Sylvester said the couple "made 100% sure Issy was insured to be pregnant, and any complications involving pregnancy whilst we were abroad were covered".
Sylvester explained: "Essentially what they said is that we would have been covered had the baby not survived. But the fact was that the baby survived."
"We weren't going to be covered for that, because we didn't put his name on the insurance policy."
As someone that wouldn't choose to travel into or through the United States, I can't say I would be surprised if I got back home after this ordeal and the medical bills started showing up. US healthcare will charge for anything under the sun. I half expect visitors will be sent invoices for travelling in the vicinity of a hospital in the near future.
The insurance on question is not American, but from their home country. The ridiculous price is American though
I realise that, my connecting thought was that the hospital looking at their insurance policy should have been able to understand the pregnancy was covered. Even with it being unclear due to the contract's wording, it should have triggered the billing department contacting the insurer for clarification.
That's not how America works though, they operate on a 'invoice first, ask questions later' approach. If one in a thousand bills get paid without question, the superfluousness is considered justified. Oh well, I would add this to my list of reasons to avoid the country if it weren't so long already.
You seem confused.
As someone who has worked directly with medical (dental) insurance, the billing hospital/doctor almost definitely sent the bill to the insurance company first, were denied the claim, and then sent it to the couple afterwards.
You seem to think the hospital told them they weren't covered, but that isn't what happened. At least not in this article. They thought it was covered and dealt with until returning to the UK, where the insurer told them they weren't covered.
You aren't the only one whose work has involved medical insurance.
From my experience, it was quite uncommon for the practitioner themselves to be preparing and sending an invoice to the insurance company. Typically they would pass this off to the billing department, though in smaller places like a dental office I've seen the 'billing department' just be the front desk. It's a touch misleading to equate the billing hospital with the doctor as if penning invoices is a shared responsibility between the two with each taking roughly equal part.
In any case, it's irrelevant. I'm not here arguing minutia about on which continent the responsibility specifically failed, nor whatever individual made an error. The system failed these people, even if the end result was only a momentary heart rate increase from seeing a medical bill until a phone call resolved the issue.
If my underlying point remains unclear, I doubt I can clarify further.
...right, you still seem confused about what is being said, since the first half of your reply is just... stating that the practitioner themselves usually don't directly send the bill, the billing department does.
I guess I could see how you could misconstrue that from what I said, but it doesn't really address the crux of who was at fault here: the insurance company.
The system failed these people? Uh... sure... the American health care system is hot dog ass and insurance is bullshit. I agree, the system sucks.
My only point here is that your comment directly makes it out to be the US/hospitals fault.
But! That being said! I see where the confusion is, now.
I realise that, my connecting thought was that the hospital looking at their insurance policy should have been able to understand the pregnancy was covered.
You presumably meant to say "the pregnancy wasn't covered". Because of this typo, it made me think you were saying that it WAS covered and that the hospital made a mistake when reading.
Also:
You aren't the only one whose work has involved medical insurance
To be fair, when you say "I wouldn't choose to live or travel through the US", it makes it pretty fair to assume you aren't already there. If you are out of the states, I have no idea how your experiences with a different healthcare system could be relevant? But hey, maybe you should lead with relevant information about why your input has more weight behind it than the average commenter.
That being said... it still doesn't. You spent half your comment acting like I was being misleading because I said "the billing doctor/hospital sent it to the insurance company", when any reasonable person would extrapolate that obviously the staff is responsible for that? I said billing doctor because the hospital sends the bill in the doctor's name. They might not be literally penning the bill, but they are the biller, they are doing the billing.
Edit: also, insurance companies are mostly all closed on weekends and you can't just "call to confirm the policy" in every situation.
I don't make it a habit to preface a general comment by preemptively stating why I may be qualified to weigh in on a topic. This is the internet after all, not really a formal setting. My qualifications are just as irrelevant as yours here. While we may have insight that others lack, we aren't doing anything but commenting on an article.
Without going point for point as you have done, it should suffice to say that even now after I have reread this thread and what I wrote previously, the underpinning of my initial comment stands - these people were failed, and it shouldn't have happened.
And yet you still have the opportunity to chime in about how you have televant qualifications, and you haven't.
Yes, like I said, we already agree that the system is bad. They were failed directly by the insurance company in this case, and there is pretty much nothing additional you could reasonably have expected from a hospital in an emergency situation like a premature birth.
Your original comment put the blame at the hospital's feet, not the insurance company's feet. When called out, you justified it by saying "the whole system was wrong, I'm not here to argue minutia".
Indeed, you are here to force out a point, backtrack and move goalposts when called out, and act as if your messaging has an underlying "the system is bad" message, when you could have just said "yeah, the insurance company sucks in this case. Whole system is bad."
These people were failed (directly by the insurance company), and it shouldn't have happened.
Insufferable. Just learn to back down when you misspeak instead of getting defensive.
It seems a little funny to claim I am here upholding an agenda. What I am is unsure. Unsure where you've read my moving goalposts when I have just stated I stand by my initial comment - which in fact does not lay the blame on the hospital, but the for profit healthcare industry in the United States.
Tell you the truth, this thread has drifted into a commentary on my word choices and my general disinterest in disclosing my career history to someone on the internet, so bringing this to a polite close isn't something I'm willing to try for any further.
Consider my insufferable self to be backed down, apologetic, and thoroughly defeated.
You quite literally attempted to place blame directly on the hospital and its staff at least once, and implied it multiple times. You also are attacking the for profit healthcare industry in the US (which is bad), but also are refusing to acknowledge the failure of a UK entity which is participating in, and profiting off, the same for profit industry. Rereading all your comments, you have refused to acknowledge the insurance company as the party at fault. The closest you come to admitting it is saying "the system is bad."
So maybe we can end it with a conciliatory agreement, since you "admit defeat" by writing out a comment attempting to reframe me as some sort of aggressor.
So: we both agree. The American hospital, by participating in the for profit health industry, de facto sucks. The for profit health industry in America, sucks. The insurance company, by participating in the for profit health industry, de facto sucks. The insurance company, specifically, is the party directly responsible for this specific issue.
Agree to those statements, as each one is factually true, and I'll concede that you aren't trying to whitewash the insurance company's participation in the course of events.
I have both a heathcare insurance and because my hobby is reenacting (ie, travel with really expensive things and doing dumb things like sleep under a hedge for 2 days) a very good travel insurance which includes healthcare abroad.
Both go out of their way to point out I have coverage in the entire world except the USA and active warzones.
You sound like stealth camping extraordinaire Steve Wallis.
It's quite funny to think 'expensive thing' could be just anything, like an orchestral harp or some of them jewels from the Louvre, and you're just hanging out under a hedge with a copy of your insurance policy as a pillow haha.
Oh, no, nothing that ornate. Just like, a historically accurate coat is expeeeeensive if you have to buy one. Mostly because it's handspun wool, handdyed and handwoven into a handsewn fabric.
Like, a meter of historically accurate linen can run over a hundred euros easily. In fact, I'd buy it right now if it's that cheap.
It doesn't get much better for other items. Of course, most of those are handmade by people who aren't charging for it, or trade for it. But if I lost my whole suitcase, it's probably going to cost 10k to replace at least. And that's not counting the armor.
And that's not counting the armor.
Are you a time travelling hedge knight?
What is it you're getting up to that you could have a suitcase full of historically accurate clothing in any place outside a museum? Only thing that comes to my mind is renaissance festivals or similar, but I wouldn't have thought accuracy was taken that seriously.
Historic reenactment.
It's basically people doing things like they were done in the past, sometimes to the level of "hello visitors, let me explain stuff while in period clothing" to "completely recreating a medieval military campaign from underpants to anything-stew, excluding dying from a minor infection".
But it also includes period crafts, so weaving your own fabric, etc.
That's quite interesting. It reminds me of a group of people that are building a castle using period correct construction and material gathering techniques. I saw a Tom Scott video about it, I think they started in the 90's or something.
Very cool to hear about. I'm glad people do these things, even if it's sort of the first I'm learning of it. I'll keep an eye out for such events in my area in the future. Thanks!
Give them the address of your hotel in the US.
They'll be happy to charge you for all mail forwarded to your home country, any costs incurred, and a little handling charge at the hotel. No extra effort needed, they already have your credit card and photo id.
Why would they have your credit card?
After a nine month legal battle, Zurich has reversed its decision and told the BBC it was sorry for the stress caused.
Yeah, very sorry I'm sure. Oopsie, we accidentally fought a nine month legal battle to avoid paying out the exact thing the insurance is for
"We've now strengthened and clarified our wording and guidance so other families travelling abroad at this stage of a pregnancy do not have to go through this experience."
TLDR: the next couple is fucked
No, what this means is that they have increased premiums for anyone at 33 weeks of pregnancy and added something about premature births that will cost more if you're traveling to America. Either that or put in specific language excluding coverage for premature births. Either way, insurance companies are a scam.
Like ‘hey, your baby is not covered, it's 43 minutes under due’
Arguing the care wasn't covered because the baby wasn't named in the insurance despite explicitly covering pregnancy-related care is ghoulish behavior. I can't fathom how you can argue that seriously and not feel like a piece of shit.
There's so, so, so, so, so much I could say about this topic.
Number 1: Why are any of you cunts even coming to the USA anymore? Sincerest apologies for victim blaming, and obviously my stupid ass has not read the article (gonna do that later).
Number 2: US healthcare costs are a scam.
Number 3: Healthcare insurance is a gamified scam.
The dates are not clear on the article, but it's possible that the birth was even pre Trump.. the couple was touring, they're musicians.
Other articles date the birth to 2022.
I think coming to the US to murder Trump is a very valid reason for travel.
Not trying to victim blame but do not go to America.
Also dont have kids
They're Brits
I don't see how the advice doesn't apply. Do not go to U.S.A
Evwn Canadians should recons8der a US visit
Maybe your scummy government should've reconsidered their complicity with the US regime a long time ago.
Their virtue signalling because the big bully you were always friends with and help in their scumbaggery is now temporary bothering you.
hypocrites
Which government is my government? I don't live in North America.
Ech, on re-read I see the problem ... my apologies. I was typing too fast for my own good.
I meant that any Canadians considering a US visit shouldreconsider
It means Brits are the closest to the US with Canadians.
They love the banana republic.
Despite the temporary spat they will be back aiding them in their imperialist looting and mass murder
ah ok yeah I agree. Their elites seem to be quite "chummy" as brits would put it.
used to be anchor babies, now is trapped in debt babies
Just don't pay, what are they going to do?
I mean given all I hear it would not entirely surprise me that they would hold the baby hostage, at best
Hospital: we gonna steal ur baby lol
Parents: oh no, you are going to feed it, bathe it, care for it, educate it, all on your own dime? Oh the humanity
Hospital: wait no not like that-
E: hospital: that's filthy socialism!
Hospital stealing your baby? Just call ICE and they'll depot you!
As artists that go on tour, the US leg likely provides a significant chunk of their income. If they were just on vacation, that's a different story.
Worth figuring out for them, as it boiled down to an administrative issue with unclear wording in the insurance contract.
Convict you in absentia then use the judgement as an excuse to freeze your bank account and ban you from all forms of banking (something that the US has the power to impose on foreigner because they hold every western bank by the balls due to their reliance on the fed)?
I don't know if they would do it, but it certainly wouldn't be unconstitutional; the US have long made it clear that foreigners on foreign land don't have any legal rights whatsoever. I would be having a long conversation with lawyers to get some hard assurances before going down that path.
Exactly. You're already outside of the country. Let them send you bills. They aren't going to send the FBI to kick in your door because of unpaid bills...
ICE, on the other hand, we send them to do all manner of things outside the US.
Repossess the child.
Extradition and imprisonment.
I love the 'Achually, you are supposed to beg the hospitals and rely on your insurance shady deals." Comments in this thread.
Just so we are clear, you know the US is the only country with running water that also charges it's citizens to remain alive, right?
This is NOT normal. Not the amount, the situation.
This is what's so fucked up about being an American. Every time there's a complaint about the system, some "good soul" comes out to explain how you avoid it.
Healthcare is expensive? Oh you have to negotiate with your doctors, your hospital, your insurance, and get it fixed.
Internet is too expensive? Oh you're supposed to call them every few months to have them lower the prices by threatening to quit.
Oh, fast food is too expensive? Oh use the mobile app and take a picture of your butthole to get it back to normal!
Listen, I think we're as barbaric about this as any reasonable person, but we really aren't unique. Mexico, Egypt, and the Philippines aren't doing so great, but they're all modern nations with modern infrastructure in their urban areas. India has even worse health insurance than the US and while yes they're still building out their plumbing systems, Mumbai and New Delhi are modern megapolises.
LOL not unique! Where exactly do you think the US stands when comparing their nominal GDP per capita with Mexico, Egypt, the Phillipines, Mumbai or Dehli?
US: #9 out of 193
Mexico.. 71. Egypt.. 134. Phillipines.. 126. India.. 140
Why don't you take a look at the healthcare systems of the countries in the top 10 GDP per capita and make an actual apples to apples comparison, hm?
Yes, we're a profoundly broken country in how we use our wealth. But you were over here acting like no other country that isnt entirely and devastatingly impoverished is failing it's citizens this way, and I'm pointing out that no, once again we fall in line with developing nations rather than developed ones. And for those of us who wish for it to be a functional country, I think my framing is much more useful.
And i apologize for assuming you're a European who knows nothing of anywhere beyond the Eurosphere and assumes developing nations don't even have running water.
I'm saying it's ridiculous, stupid and confusing to say "we aren't unique". The US is in the top 10 in GDP per capita but is ranked in the lower 50 when it comes to Healthcare.
But "we aren't unique".
American exceptionalism, unless its about taking responsibility I guess. Lmao
"I don't think we've ever sort of lost the feeling that there isn't a wolf at the door".
This captures the current American experience perfectly.
ALL THESE WORLDS ARE YOURS EXCEPT AMERICA. ATTEMPT NO LANDING THERE.
Sorry, I could not resist. How ironic that the original American movie quote said Europe (okay, the moon Europa) and now it's basically reversed. (Kubrick, Space Odyssey 2001)
Ah yes, the United States -- Don't get sick or you will have to fight tooth and nail to get your insurance company to pay for necessary medical care. This is a story heard over and over again stateside. If the U.S. was truly the best place in the world to live, this would simply not happen. As a person who has worked in healthcare in the U.S. for over 15 years, I feel this in my bones. I am glad you could get legal help and have the right outcome based on what you paid for. I would love nothing more than to see everyone who comes to the U.S. receive medical care appropriately -- Nobody asks to get sick :(
i'm glad the medical side tries to stay focused on patient care. i've a friend in Mexico where they check ability to pay before any treatment begins. she was bleeding out and they waited until after her card was verified before doing anything. lower costs, maybe. One thing that being married to an RN has taught me, the billing department sends insanely inflated bills which are step 1 in their insurance negotiation. I got a bill for over $600,000, I laughed while still in the hospital bed. bill got negotiated down to $150,000. Even if there is a ginormous bill, you can postpone threatened collections by sending them anything, like $10/month. it will reset their billing escalation cycle. debts more than 7 years old will get written off. if all else fails, bankruptcy isn't all that bad. shuffle assets to trusted family. the amount of money they waste on greedy negotiations far eclipses any actual cost for treatment. don't stress over the bills. stress kills. let some fat lawyer worry about not getting a new car this year.
I dunno - my ex burned all the skin off his hand once, the first question at the emergency room was "how are you paying?" and we waited there 5 hours before they saw him, during which time it got so much worse he ended up needing more treatment & therapy. No we didn't have insurance or money back then. They eventually arranged temporary Medicaid for him as he couldn't work with the hand so burned. Which left us without his income (I had just given birth too) so without much food.
Anyway - this was in the 1990s but I am absolutely sure we had to wait because we could not pay, even though it was an obvious emergency.
some are worse than others. I've noticed going to a prompt care is much faster than going to 'emergency room'. depends a lot on location and how busy they are that day. i haven't been seen w/o insurance since 70s when i broke my hand in a fight. doubt they ever got paid for that cast.
Not germane. Zurich Insurance Group is not a USian medical insurance company.
Just a stark reminder that all insurance, no matter where you get it from and what country it originates in, is 100% a scam.
That's just blatantly false. I'm all for hating companies that gouge people to make money, but insurance isn't inherently a scam. Insurance, when implemented properly, is paying a low regular premium to offset a risk you can't afford should it hit. I've insured my house against burning down, because I can afford to pay a small amount once a month while a fire (while unlikely) would bankrupt me. Most likely, I'll lose money in the long run by paying for that insurance, but that's not the point. The point is that I can afford to lose money over a 30-50 year period, but I cannot afford to lose my house at any single point during the next 30-50 years.
It’s a nice ideal. Insurance can in theory help smooth out whatever life throws at you. But in the modern world, their incentives are to not
The US health care industry is a scam
i'll bet you and all your neighbors 100/mo, your house won't burn down this month. send payments on time or else. Meanwhile, i lend you your money to pay for your mortgage with interest. have some more Kool-Aid.
Why would I take that when I already have a running bet with my insurance company where I only pay ≈ 20 USD / month?
The whole point here is that I can afford 20 USD/month indefinitely. However, having my house burn down at any point would be absolutely detrimental to my personal economy, to the point of bankrupting me and likely preventing me from being able to afford a new house in the foreseeable future. I'm well aware that in purely economic terms I'm taking a losing bet. The point is that the consequences should the bet strike home are so large that I can't afford not to take it.
Of course, you could argue that I would be better off saving that money and being "my own insurance". You would be right, except for the fact that the house burning down is just as likely tomorrow as in 20 years. If I had enough cash to insure myself, I obviously wouldn't need to take this losing bet, but I don't.
big insurers have millions of your neighbors paying 20/month. all i know is, 'the house always wins'. they are swimming in cash. my dad used to sell car insurance. when cards became mandatory, he had an influx of 'card buyers'. pay one month and get a card. stop paying. because they bet the odds of getting fined for no card were a lot better than odds of getting in a wreck. house wins, sells you 'uninsured motorist' coverage. people gamble on many things. insurance is good when you win. they lose when you win so deny, depose ... I don't know the answer. just try to hedge bets and look for ways to break even for all us non-greedy shmoes. i don't like most insurance co.'s greed. have insurance as required and savings also. i'd never pay for extended warranty on something under $10k. that's some easy bets for them.
I agree that the house is winning here (as always) and I also hate companies that squeeze us regular people for cash at every opportunity as much as the next person.
My point is that I don't really see buying e.g. house insurance as a gamble as much as I see it as paying a monthly fee for the peace of mind it gives me to know that I won't be financially ruined by a house fire or a burglary. It's not about making money in the long term for me, it's about mitigating the consequences of highly unlikely but absolutely devastating events.
have insurance with allstate because it's cheaper rate. hail damaged the entire neighborhood, 20 houses on two separate days. every other house on my street got 2 new roofs a month before allstate quit dragging their feet and released funds to do mine once. i paid my nephew extra to make it a metal roof and made allstate give me a discount. pay for itself and last long after i'm dead. peace of mind until you have to jump through hoops to make them do what you paid for.
Yes, it's a for profit business that makes it's profit off of trying to have the most accurate odds they can. They charge you slightly more than they expect to lose on you (the house edge) and then they're betting on every roll of the dice. That's exactly how casinos earn money (though casinos try to compete on experience and payout, while insurance competes on price and payout).
The difference is that the casino is attempting to take advantage of your greed and wants you to stay there and bet everything you have. Meanwhile the insurer is selling relief from fear of financial ruin and is asking you to make scheduled bets that you want to lose every month. American health insurance has massive issues and should be replaced with something akin to the NHS before it was defunded, but nobody is losing their shirt buying homeowners insurance unless the area they live in is now being pummeled by the climate crisis like southern California or the gulf of Mexico.
Would government run insurance be better? Yeah probably. But in the era before modern insurance a major part of the draw of fraternal organizations was that they served that role.
Yeah give me that line again after your house actually has burned down and you have to fight tooth and nail to get any money from the insurance company that you've been paying to for the last X number of years.
You are aware that the whole basis for my original comment (and follow-up) was that insurance isn't inherently a scam, right? Any transaction can be turned into a scam if you refuse to hold up your end of the deal, but that doesn't make the concept of transactions a scam in itself.
My impression is that US insurance companies are particularly bad about not paying up, and thereby scamming people. Luckily, I don't live in the US, and don't have any historical precedent that gives me reason to doubt my insurance company would pay up. The problem with insurance (and a lot of other things) in the US is a system that heavily incentivises squeezing consumers at every turn. The problem is not that insurance is an inherently a scam.
I am well aware of that. This couple's experience was in parallel to what occurs all the time with people who have insurance in the U.S.
I don't think anyone was sick here.
So, your perspective is that pregnant people who have life-threatening medical conditions arising from their pregnancy through no fault of their own should have to pay out-of-pocket? Additionally, in it sounds like you feel that premature births due to life-threatening medical issues that the mother is suffering from and subsequent aftercare for the mother and premature infant should also be paid for out of pocket?
Use condoms.
Insurance company trying to evade one job it is supposed to do
You get hired to help out a business in a emergency situation. You do nothing and get paid month after month. A couple years go by and finally the phone rings.
Hey man, we really need you right now! Come on in!
"Claim denied, I will see you in court."
insurance
Some of them probably don't even have the means to help, they just get lawyers to avoid accountability and write ridiculous terms for their policies, and in the EXTREME case they actually need to fix something they probably outsource it lol
"But what about helping our people Bob!?"
We need a real life Mr Incredible to do that to every insurance CEO. Throw through 6 concrete walls.
You pay them to keep their lawyers on retainer
That sucks... Born in the US....
Bruce Springsteen has entered the chat. And that song is not celebratory
Paying taxes to the US forever!
Just checked, it appears you can renounce it :
the State Department no longer proactively attempts to prove such intent, and issues a Certificate of Loss of Nationality (CLN) only when an individual "affirmatively asserts" their relinquishment of citizenship.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relinquishment_of_United_States_nationality
Progress!
The US: why is our birth rate so low? Also the US: ...
The best way to lower birth rates is free contraception. The birth rate in the US is too high..
Best we can do is get rid of medicade and charge you for murder if you abort or use plan b. Once you are in debtors prison Your baby will then be transferred into a Mossad run sex trafficking and jerky processing operation
Interestingly it is still higher than a lot of European countries which have affordable healthcare
different causes: people are having less kids in the US because they're living in misery, whereas in europe we've long had fewer kids because better education and less need to have 8 kids so one of them survives and can take care of you as you get old.
It's actually the same in the US. Misery increases the birthrate.
Our birthrate is higher because we traditionally have had a higher immigration rate from countries with higher birthrates.
Yeah in most European countries at least half the kids survived to adulthood now. So if you have four kids at least two of them will survive and that's all you need to pull the ox
My son was born at 24 weeks. Modern NICUs are an absolute marvel. They took this tiny little guy at the cusp of viability to a healthy, happy, normal baby boy over the next three months.
The pricetag for this treatment was half a million dollars. But, fortunately, we were eligible for Medicaid. A sum that would have bankrupted us was neatly covered by the state.
Except tax payers now get to send their hard earned money directly to the leeches that work at insurance companies.
No matter if the system works out for individuals with insurance Americans get screwed with the way it is at the moment.
You all need to fight for universal health care so that shit isn't marked up 5000% so that insurances companies make billions for doing nothing but complicate everything
private insurance is heavily subsidized by OUR TAXES anyways, but is unvailable or extremely inaccessible to most people. propaganda has convinced the right more than the left that private insurance results in "faster time, appts and guaranteed care" but it does not appear to be in most cases, because insurance can easily nitpick dim/nickle everything of your care(multiple tests, each doctor appointment, what the doctor is doing, who is reading your results,,,,etc)
You all need to fight for universal health care
We've been fighting for over a century. It's a horrifying monster that's only grown bigger and stronger over time.
Closest anyone has come to slaying the beast is Luigi Mangione and look what happened to him.
I was born at 28 weeks 5 decades ago.
$0 .
Very fortunate
I've been through both experiences with medicaid for one birth and insurance for another which needed NICU support (fucking huge shout-out to the awesome hospital staff that was supportive through it all). The vast differences of the experience is just mind numbing and the stress is through the roof trying to get around all the billing and headaches. I've thought of doing a write-up to share the experience but it's just so much I feel like it would be a whole side project trying to document the whole ordeal over months of anguish.
40% of US babies are born on medicad and the BBB just stripped it completely
That poor child will now have to suffer dual citizenship in the US. That kid's tax stuff will be a PITA when it starts working.
can you really not reject citizenships?
You can, but you have to pay fees and forefit a percent of your net worth.
The baby should do it now, while their net worth is $0
What if it doesn't get rid of its citizenship? If it never goes to the US, the US system can never do anything about it simply not paying US taxes.
If they never go to the US or try to do business with the US, sure. It is, however, an unnecessary limitation on their future. Best to renounce the citizenship as soon as possible if they don't want to keep it.
In the US, the penalty for not filing is in addition to whatever to is owed.
If you're a US citizen, you need to file once you're 18 pretty much. If you don't go to the US, and don't live in a place with lower taxes, that's it.
The US has planes and guns. They have invaded many foreign countries and stolen money from banks that didn't comply with the US laws on KYC/AML in the past
You can, but it's a pain in the ass.
As long as they spend at least 330 days per 12 month period in non-US countries, they can deduct 130K/y via FEIE, and it adjusts with inflation.
Hope they don't get a job that keeps them in international waters tho.
That's in addition to a deduction of taxes they pay in their country.
I'm curious, what happens if you just don't pay? What if you just go back home and never come back?
Honestly if you never go back, not much. It wouldn't even impact your credit rating, and your country likely doesn't have the means to enforce it. I could imagine you get harassed by us debt collection agencies but they can't do anything about it either. If you're never returning to the US, it's fine.
You could likely even still holiday in the USA. It won't impact your visa as it's not a criminal offence either.
I'm not a lawyer, and could be totally wrong, but I asked my dad who is also not a lawyer.
After 7 years without any payment, most debt including medical debt and standard loans are discharged. The non-payment is key. Even sending a cent will restart the obligation to that debt
If the debt is large enough, the companies will use a myriad of tricks to keep the debt alive long after it is supposed to expire.
Like what?
They will actually make a payment in your name to the account and that will keep the debt alive for at least a year or two.
That would be fraud. I'm sure it happens, and it's going to be hard to prove it did. This whole system is undoubtedly rotten, and I'm not excusing any part of it.
They are bringing back debtor's prisons in some states, those debts they sell as unrecoverable are bought by shady companies, as in Utah, that sue for them in the big city, and if the defendant doesn't show up they get a default judgement and then get the judge to hold them in contempt, and jail them. If they pay they get out right away. After they get out of jail the holder of the debt can just file for another action and contempt you again, as I understand it.
And they aren't the only state either I hear, they were one of the first to end run around the prohibition, I think case law, on debtor's prisons, over 10 years back.
Utah still has the firing squad, yeah?
They just brought back that form of execution, and it's an improvement over lethal injection as it is practiced, or the electrical chair or gas chamber.
Lethal injection could be humane, they choose not to make it so. Nothing would be more humane that a hot shot of opioids and benzodiazapemes and the like. They want them to suffer and use their other formulation that does cause pain even as it makes the person unable to show that pain, as I understand it.
The electrical chair is grotesque, as was the gas chamber as practiced that not only is disturbingly similar to nazi shit, but also operated as with the lethal injections.
So firing squad is much more humane, hanging is humane, guillotine, etc would all be better. Obviously though we can't trust the system to convict the right people so we shouldn't have the death penalty. But certain exceptions could exist, for people that would use corrupt influence to get their conviction overturned, cancelled, and do more harm, politically connected people, the super rich.
And yes, shady companies like these, are the perfect recipients of said penalty with due process as they would pay off higher ups to get it cancelled and abuse more people.
TL;DR slavery
This guy is correct. IANAL.
I would say the hospital would sell it to a debt collector in the UK. If it gets to court you could argue incorrect jurisdiction as the contract would have started in the US but that's risking a lot on a technicality. You would also need to fork out for a solicitor, barrister and court costs. I think they did the right thing in shaming the insurance into paying rather than fighting the debt collector who has no shame.
They can sue, and then try to seize your assets, at least inside the country. Most hospitals don't, but some do. Garnish your paychecks too. Not sure how that would work in another country.
ICE gonna come to get ya
I doubt any of them have passports and probably couldn't point to the UK on an atlas, so I think you'd be relatively safe.
I doubt any of them have passports
and do what? Ensure the U.K also denounces the U.S as an ally?
So.. that baby is basically came to USA without approval? Should it be detained in the concentration camp or something?
No, it's white.
They have been murdering white people too
Doesn't that baby have birthright citizenship, being born in the US?
Maybe if we had the rule of law instead of a Republican dictatorship.
Yes.
I mean... there's an injunction on the executive order so for now.... but we'll see how the court case goes... 👀
US health insurance pulled the same shitty tactic on me with my first born.
Both our kids were charged 6,000 to be born . . . Fun trick, where they charge the baby, since the mother has probably hit their out of pocket max, and that lets them jack it to the family max.
More Luigis please.
I feel like you should be able to tell them to go fuck themselves, since children can't sign contracts.
Oh, that's the fun part of it - it's your debt, but on the children's insurance. They're moving the care from one patient to another (to max out family out of pocket charges), but the parents are on the contract and can be sued.
Can't you declare bankruptcy for the kids then? Though that would probably fuck with the credit score? But I have no clue how that works.
Travel insurance is a scam. I used to pay Allianz for cancellation insurance every trip but the one time I needed to claim it they denied it.
It's not safe to travel to the US while pregnant or sick, they will take everything from you.
It's just not safe to travel there ever
I'm certainly not going back until at least 2029. Let MAGA eat itself over the Epstein files and the next president reform the gun laws (as both sides are now talking about it) and then I'll think about it.
It’s not safe to travel to the US while pregnant or sick, they will take everything from you.
Until Trump they also claimed the baby as US citizen which is dangerous because they demand taxes from their citizens whereever they are on this world.
Traveling in 3rd trimester is already medically dangerous.
Everyone knows blood attracts sharks, now we have sharks on planes.
Thanks obama.
How's the US still a country, how do people just put up with it.
Around 50 years of near constant propaganda from our media convincing people that the government paying for anything is destructive to the economy and that taxing rich people more that poor people is not fair.
And that Black people will get benefits if we have social programs, and can't have that.
Military Industrial Complex
Bread and circuses still works.
Hope to die, survive till it happens.
"Hey, man, we told the kid not to be born, that we couldn't afford it, but he wouldn't listen, and went and borned hisself anyhow, without any permission. So that's on him. You have to sue him.
But you can't, because he's a BABY! And you can't sue a baby! BOOM! CHECKMATE, BITCH!"
That'll work in any court in the nation. Don't even need a lawyer, save your money.
Sounds like skipping the bill and never returning to the US is a great option here, tbh
So is reading the article.
They're touring musicians. It would mean forfeiting a lot of income.
And they wonder why our population is free falling. Between trump and it's too expensive, why would the wise ones do that?
Unfortunately it's not?
Dude, look at any chart before idiot in office started going after the only ones having babies.
That's one expensive citizenship
Only $200k? They got a deal there.
"Why is no one having babies anymore?"
Gotta be al that avocado toast.
The shitty American medical system being what it is I gotta blame the travel insurance. If their insurance was supposed to cover it and didn’t, that’s an insurance problem.
And the insurance did end up paying, but nine months later after what is referred to as a legal battle. So presumably these folks had to go into their own pockets for it. Typical bullshit.
That sucks. I mean, I’m glad it eventually worked out, but that’s a lot of BS for them to put up with because insurance didn’t want to pay.
It's time entirely likely they never actually paid anything out of their own pocket. Situations like this are awfully common, so hospitals pretty easily mark a bill as in legal dispute and move on while it gets sorted.
Part of the horrible cycle is that bills are high to cover costs while bills are disputed, which makes them more likely to be disputed.
The American medical system charged their case with that astronomical amount in the first place.
Apparently if you ask for an itemised bill (Which they have no right to refuse) they tend to lower the price because they can't actually justify the random numbers they came up with.
Then the insurance is incorrect for the situation. IOW if you know the US charges stupid prices then insurance should be commensurate. Or not go to the US. Not blaming the people, just an insurance company that is inept.
From what I've heard from Americans working in hospitals is that this bill is what the hospital writes but they only charge a small amount and declare the rest at their own insurance as a loss. So the couple would end up with a bill of a few hundred dollars, nothing more. This is common practice, is what those people told me. I don't know if this is the case in every state though. But it sure is one weird fucked up system.
Is that a legitimate business strategy?
I just send my customer a bill for a ridiculous amount, then my customer negotiates for something significantly less, and I can write off the difference?
There must be more to this. It's too good to be true.
It is for the people who are getting paid, which is the insurance companies.
If it wasn't, it wouldnt be the awful dystopian norm for the past 40 years here this stupid country.
I've also read stories from people who have negotiated how much of their bill they paid. Fucked up indeed.
Our first baby was born 5 weeks early and had to spend about 3 weeks in the NICU before we could take him home. Nothing major, just monitoring and a careful feeding regimen to make sure he would make it, as sensitive as they are when born that early.
My wife had to pay $30 for the 3 days she rented a bed in the maternity ward ($10/day). That was our total bill.
Second child we paid nothing.
Nothing negotiated, just how it works in my country. ✌️
And we have people in Canada that want to go to the American system.
Is made me realize there are a lot of people who will vote against their own interests as long as their neighbors can't possibly get undue benefit.
And we have people in Canada that want to go to the American system.
Well, they can fuck right off to Florida, please.
Insane 😢
Insurance companies make deals with hospitals along the lines of "We'll pay 1k for this procedure which should cost 300 bucks, or 40% of your standard rates, whichever is lower." So the standard rate becomes $2500.
Then the insurance company will require a 40% "copay" based on the standard rates, and the patient ends up paying the $1000 and the insurance company doesn't pay shit despite collecting hundreds a month in premiums.
If you tell them you don't have insurance they'll frequently discount the fee to the $300 it should cost.
And this is embraced because profit is capped to a percentage of payouts
insurance in general in the us is increasingly security theater. Not just medical.
Aren't you supposed to avoid air travel during the later stages of pregnancy?
Ferris, who was 33 weeks pregnant with their first child, had been given the all clear for the trip and flight by her midwife and GP.
She was 7 weeks early, that's easily a good month before she is "recommended not to fly".
Huh...I didn't know you could cut it that close. I figured it was more like "don't fly during the 3rd trimester."
Shows what I know.
I think “during the third trimester” is essentially folk wisdom because who wants to push their luck?
We'll also historically people weren't very good at keeping track of when they got pregnant so it was a bit hit and misses to when the baby would be due.
Most travel insurance policies exclude cover once you're in your third trimester. The article mentioned that they'd be clarifying this in their policy as well.
Insurance policy limits are dictated by profits, not doctors' recommendations.
isnt advisable by studies for pregnant woman to not travel outside thier country to avoid situations like these.
It's advisable not to travel to, over, or near the United States regardless of pregnancy status
It really depends on various factors like how far into the pregnancy she is (travel when you're 2 months in is vastly different to travel when you're 8 months in), how urgent the need to travel is (traveling to go to an anime convention is vastly less urgent than traveling to lay your mom to rest), how far you're traveling (a weekend saunter to the next town over is different than traveling half way around the globe (which it sounds like she did)), whether the doctor overseeing your care says its okay, and other stuff.
It's less to avoid situations like this and more to avoid the stresses of travel and having something come up in a situation where medical care might not be available, or leaving you far away from your usual care team, or in a situation where you have a very fresh baby and you live 5000 miles away, which can make for a very rough trip home or a difficult recovery in a faraway place.
I have a friend who had a c section birth that otherwise had no complications (other than requiring a c section. They were in the hospital 4 days iirc, way less than a week. Insurance was billed for 98,000. They had a 10k out of pocket max, thankfully
For most US medical bills the number you see and what the insurance company will actually pay (even to completely settle the bill) are entirely different numbers. Although this isn't medical insurance per se. I bet they negotiated it down though.
thats usually why private services charges something that high, they know insurance is good on paying a percentage of that bill if not most of it.
Link?
I'm not going to send you my personal info, but it's no secret that anyone with US health first gets a bill with a huge number $$ that's marked THIS IS NOT A BILL, then some weeks later we get another one from the insurance company which shows that number, and then a much smaller number "allowed" by the insurance which then shows as paid by them, then whatever "copay" we might have, usually about $30 with my insurance. Then there's "your responsibility" which is just the copay if the doctor/hospital is in your insurance network. In that situation the provider has to accept what the insurance allows and no more. If they're out of network, you may have to pay the difference between the original bill and what the insurance paid. Which can be a lot, so the first thing you should do is request an itemized bill. This will often be lower to start with, and gives you information to negotiate/contest items. Hospitals will also work with you to make a payment plan at that point.
In the OP case it was Swiss travel insurance not US health insurance and they finally agreed to pay the NICU bill, good work by the couple's lawyer.
Time to head home and never look back 😅
Part of why medical bills in the US are so high is because if you don't pay them, they sell the debt to collections at pennies on the dollar.
Which means that the people who do pay the high prices are paying for those who don't or can't or won't.
Stop paying.
This is the Greatest Country In The World, sunny Jim, and you better thank Republican Jesus for our for-profit system! Otherwise you might be forced into free socialist health care, where you have to get vaccines and stuff for nothing, and only a godless communist wants that. /s
It sounds fake but its real. If they got a car and ran a baby over they'd have paid 1% of this. Our system is so deeply fucked up.
Lol, even better. Usa credit cant hurt them abroad. They can just never pay it.
Priority goes to UK citizenship.
Not sure if TERF Island with a Great Firewall is exactly better
Usa: dear tourists, the old have a baby in usa trick will also be tarrrifed and taxed.
UK tourists: how u gonna do that?
Usa: evil grin
Just don't pay it.
$200k? did the hospital make the baby?
Sadly that's low for some cases of births. I've heard of people being charged >$1M before insurance (so that number might be BS insurance negotiations, but still)
if that happened in my country I'd cut my dick off just in case
Just out of interest: Would U.S.-Americans be allowed to found a non-profit health insurance organization?
Allowed to, sure. But it would quickly be crushed by the companies that have way more resources to draw on...
Yeah the better option is for a multi state compact for a public option. I know Washington has a bit of a public option. That said, you get no subsidies if your employer offers minimum contributions to the health insurance of their choosing.
Edit to finish the thought: we need universal single payer, but barring that we need public options and real choice, including choice over where to apply our employer's contributions. It wouldn't fix everything that universal single payer would, but it would enable you to have the freedom to not need to change doctors every time you get a new job.
Allowed? Technically yes, in the same way people are allowed to start local broadband co-ops or like grocery stores or whatever else.
The problem comes when you have to actually make people aware you exist and have a service or product for sale, and "compete" with the national/multi-national corporation who have infinitely more resources than you do.
Just look at how Walmart and now Amazon have put just about every mom and pop shop out of business. They can move in, drop prices so low locally long enough to put you out of business because they have other areas locked down already and covering the losses. Then once they have the market locked up they can charge whatever they want because you have no other options.
Almost certainly there already exists a non-profit health insurance organization, they just don't have the resources to advertise on all the major channels and across the interwebs like all the predatory ones do.
If you paid protection money to another gangster but then they didn't protect you what would likely happen?
The gangster apologizes and deeply regrets the situation but does not return your money.
Oh wow and people wonder why people aren't having kids...
Don't travel when close to your due date.
Let me correct this sentence: Close to your due date or not, don't travel to the USA.
I stopped paying for health insurance a couple years ago, one of the best decisions I've made.
Which country are you avoiding health insurance from?
USA
Sylvester explained: "Essentially what they said is that we would have been covered had the baby not survived. But the fact was that the baby survived."
"We weren't going to be covered for that, because we didn't put his name on the insurance policy."
JFC
A friend living in Mexico fell off a horse and slashed a wrist on a fence. They wouldn't even treat her until checking her credit card. She moved back to us.
🤦♂️
This is not as big a deal as the headline shows. No one would pay that much.
The unfortunate reality is American healthcare is geared to generate humongous bills but that’s just the starting point. Normally your insurance company will then negotiate it down. If you don’t have insurance, you can usually get them to write off huge amounts.
One of the underlying problems is not everyone has insurance but everyone will get at least emergency care. Hospitals know there will be a lot of bills that can never be paid, so their initial bill to everyone needs yo account for that loss.
That and the general extractive nature of the us health care system, the massive number of layers and middlemen that all need to show a profit
But clearly the problem here is the non-us insurance company not dealing with it until forced to nine months later
Worst case scenario- go home and never come bs k. That bill is not following you to another country
But clearly the problem here is the non-us insurance company not dealing with it until forced to nine months later
That's par for the course as far as insurance firms go. Most of the times you have to at least threaten them with legal action for them to do their fucking job.
Worst case scenario- go home and never come bs k. That bill is not following you to another country
That depends, there may be international agreements.
I mean not if you go to those not really a hospital "clinic" things they have then its like $12k.I know people doing that.
I'm guessing if something goes wrong at one of those then you're royally fucked though.
Plus a lot of people aren't vaccinating their babies now so no need for the hospital. I know these people.
I hate Americans.
Getting cum in is a choice. Sorce me (m) and my bf.
play stupid games - live
win stupid prizes - receive financially bad healthcare
???
you're not making much sense
You could charitably interpret the stupid games as going to the US when you could be in literally any other developed country.
They never say "don't impregnate anyone".
I agree, the TWO HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLAR BILL is completely reasonable, it's the insurance company's fault alone, there is literally nothing wrong with way we do medicine in the USA.
On an unrelated note I wonder why Americans aren't having babies? It must be the queers.
Its a U.S. medical bill.
The hospital asks for whatever the fuck it wants after it does the treatment.
Then insurance says "we only pay a negotiate rate" and pays $25-$30K."
I had intern from France a year back when I worked in research. He went skiing and broke his leg around 6 months in. The French healthcare system sent him a check for how much the medical treatment would cost in France. It was around 10% of the bill. He paid the 10% to the hospital.
The hospital kept billing him and sent some of the bills to collections. He asked me what to do about it. "Tell them they have been fully paid by the French health system and to take it up with them. Then go back to France in 2 months and forget about it."
He laugh and said they immediately stopped bothering him after that.
Yes, but insurance companies benefit from large bills as well bcs the premiums go up, it's the main reason why over the years their profits are soaring. Their backoffice negotiating the bil is purely b2b shenanigans (same as recreational denying of coverage, them are just little profit optimisations). And it's not like their b2c approach differs that much.
If non-free (healthcare) markets aren't regulated this is a normal, logical thing to occur.
A broken leg costs (xray/mri, blood work, a cast, labour) are very low, like a couple of hundred monies.
I'm in Canada.
Which makes you an ignorant, lying troll.
Good point, so long as the system still technically works, it doesn't matter if it's too expensive for 25% of Americans to use it.
25%?! Oh I wish it was that low.
Oh wow, you're right. It's 36% now per this KFF article: https://www.kff.org/health-costs/americans-challenges-with-health-care-costs/
Still, a small price to pay to keep the poors-- I mean, uh, the government out of our hospitals.
Nope.
It's definitely an issue with the USA.
Thanks for the proof.
In no first world country would the bill reach even half that amount. That is definitely a US problem.
No medical procedure should cost more than 10k.
Pergenat?
Pregananant??
PREGANTE!
Starch masks.
Gregnant
Pregregorian
It can be both.