Orbán era is over, as Tisza scores historic victory in Hungary
2mon 6d ago by feddit.org/u/dubak in europe@feddit.org from euobserver.com
With more than 50 percent of votes counted on Sunday, Tisza's Magyar had already secured 136 out of 199 seats, in a clear constitutional majority.
Well done! Congrats to our Hungarian friends!
Thank you! Absolutely incredible, 79.5% voter turnout - people really had enough of Orban
JD did a great job. lol
fuck that this ain't his victory
new and terrifying american weapon
I didn't imagine in my wildest dreams that fucking someone's couch could have such a consequential impact.
the only one i will credit him with a "victory" is antipoping a pope
I think you're missing the joke
Oh I get it, I just refuse to give a victory that belongs to the people of Hungary to Jadie Vance.
he was able to reap the popes soul, and death touched an election chances of orban.
Thanks for the assist!
After 9PM, Orbán phoned Magyar to congratulate him on his victory; Magyar published this on his Facebook page.
When even Orban is better then Trump...
Tbf this was a jawdropping surprise for us, but happy to take the win
Not really a surprise to be honest, already back at the time of COVID he asked full executive authority during the crisis only to relinquish them once the crisis was solved (or anway back under control).
Not that this assolve him from everything wrong (or bad) he did obviously.
Today we all europeans shall rejoice! One russian spy down! More to go!
This would be something to celebrate if we would treat collaboration with the US equally.
How does this not end in the total dependency on the US?
You do realize that it was the US, too, backing the Orbans there, right?
Psst. Don't confuse our comrade here.
Then help me out, please. How is Europe going to become independent?
That takes a lot of initiatives and some time but critically it also requires us to stay togetger and strengthen cooperation within the EU. That is also actually exactly why the propaganda you are falling for is trying to destroy this cooperation and the EU.
There is a lot going on and many efforts have accelerated in recent years: rapid transition to renewable energy, Gallileo, Iris2, stronger EU based defense cooperation, contingency trade framework with other global players, Digital Euro and Wero, recent push by France to fully replace Windows, Teams, MS Office in public adminustration (which later on also delivers the blueprint for the private sector to enable transition to sovereign solutions) ...
That is also actually exactly why the propaganda you are falling for is trying to destroy this cooperation and the EU.
If the US control the politicians then what good is strong cooperation?
rapid transition to renewable energy
Germany stopped nuclear energy and inhibited itself for solar energy.
stronger EU based defense cooperation
Nato has right of first rejection to take over conflicts, with an US general at the top.
contingency trade framework with other global players,
Mercosur didn't look like we dare to fully cooperate with the backyard of the US.
To me it looks like we are doing something but only enough that it looks like progress.
E.g. solar energy, the Spanish blackout has shown that we cannot transport Spanish solar energy to the rest of the EU. Why do we have that limit if we care about independence? This is Trump's second term. We had been warned.
You do realize that it was the US, too, backing the Orbans there, right?
Yes. I think the US is fully lucid about Trump and they were sending Vance to finish Orban. They must still remember how Tesla tanked after Musk supported Trump.
I am puzzled by Orban. He needed the votes of the center. How can he believe that Vance helps?
On the other side the US have fully embraced disinformation. Trump is seen as working for Putin while taking out Putin's allies.
What people believe doesn't matter, as long as they are divided. The US switched to coercion. They accept to be hated by the population as long as countries still have to cooperate.
For the unity of the EU, the election is a success. My fear is that the US has been prepared and is controlling the top. Then that unity will be a disadvantage.
Congratulation, your paranoia has lead you to view the EU exactly in the way the US and Russian regime want you to view.
Which is what a corrupt EU would want you to think. How can we actually figure out who is right?
That is an easy one. Putin would have no problem with a corrupt EU, nor would Trump, yet they absolutely loath the EU. Also on a systematic level your idea is just deeply uninformed. The EU is an extremely multi-centric institution, pretty much the opposite of an authoriatirian state after Gleichschaltung where everything is super centralised and you only have to corrupt very few to get the result you want. That by itself makes corruption extremely expensive and also risky (as there are so many eyes on the process) because you have to corrupt so many different players to get the result you want. Another reason why Trump and Putin try so hysterically to destroy the EU, other than the capability of the EU to create unified action, even if it arises out of such a multicentric machinery.
Putin would have no problem with a corrupt EU,
He would, with a EU corrupted by the US.
where everything is super centralised and you only have to corrupt very few to get the result you want.
What about the European Commission?
I find it entertaining to think that corrupt politicians would be bound to the US. Take the corrupt AfD, its leading candidate for the EU election was corrupted by not one but several foreign powers. By all means, they appear to sell out German interests to pretty much any foreign power that is willing to pay enough.
The European Commission is way less powerful in the EU context than any national government in the national context. It is one of the major players but only one of a handful and cannot do much without the support from other players.
I find it entertaining to think that corrupt politicians would be bound to the US.
They are not bound to the US. Even Azerbaijan could buy politicians.
The European Commission is way less powerful in the EU context than any national government in the national context.
In which way? They have regulations for some areas and they suggest regulations for the parliament to comment and approve.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_(European_Union)
cannot do much without the support from other players.
Regulations are binding for all members. To me that seems to be powerful.
the way the US and Russian regime want you to view.
They have fundamentally different goals.
The US have deep influence on the established parties. The politicians and managers are part of their networks like the world economic forum.
Russia can only try to disrupt this by supporting new parties that are a threat to the established parties.
The US want a dysfunctional EU with a working economy but with bad enough living conditions that their own workers don't get envious.
Russia is the junior partner to the EU and thus can accept a functional EU as long as they are treated as an equal. However as long as they remain independent they will always be a risk to other EU countries because they could become the biggest economy.
To Russia, the EU under US control is a threat whereas an independent EU can be a partner.
Trump has turned the US into a threat to the EU but the US have not been fond of an independent EU for a long time.
But in the meantime, it is imperative that no Eurasian challenger emerges, capable of dominating Eurasia and thus also of challenging America.
There is no such thing as a dysfunctional EU with a working economy. The economy of the member states rests on the Single Market which rests on a functioning political Union. There goes already one assumption.
To think Russia considers being a "junior partner to the EU" is borderline delusional. Russia needs the EU functionally destroyed, consequences be dammed because it absolutely insists on rebuilding its empire and oppressing as well as exploiting half of Europe in the process in the mid to long term as great power. This is only possible with the EU being functionally destroyed because it needs to divide and rule for that goal to be achievable.
You insisting that the EU is under US control is detached from reality, when the US has not only turned openly hostile towards the EU, and started supporting the very same forces that Russia is supporting which do not aim for an indpendent EU but the opposite, a dysfunctional EU with national capitals being bought by foreign powers. Also there have been numerous major areas of policy making that Washington DC is absolutely furious about. If that is what an institution controlled by the US does, you have a curious definition of "controlled".
There is no such thing as a dysfunctional EU with a working economy
The EU ignored the digital dependency on the US for years. That seems dysfunctional to me.
needs the EU functionally destroyed, consequences be dammed because it absolutely insists on rebuilding its empire
That was different in 2001, when Putin gave a speech to the German parliament.
oppressing as well as exploiting half of Europe
What's your reason for believing this?
If that is what an institution controlled by the US does, you have a curious definition of “controlled”.
The EU is not an American colony. The US control with whatever they have. That's chaotic. The US have influence on every major party, at least in Germany. I have read stories about each one. Of course they start taking over the parties that Russia supports once they become relevant.
The EU started as a counter-measure to French-German unity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89lys%C3%A9e_Treatycontroversy
No EU is better than a dysfunctional EU but a dysfunctional EU is better than a functional one for the US.
You seem to have a funny definition of "dysfunctional" or confuse the term with "politically shortsighted". Europe did have a relationship with the US that was beneficial to both sides, that was the basis of it and the reason it worked for so long. This has ended, one could have seen it coming much earlier and indeed France has seen it coming for a long time and is therefore also one of the best prepared member states but even France has been complacent when it comes to modern IT infrastructure. That has little to do with being dysfunctional.
I am wondering if you are really that naive and truly believe that Putin ever intended to see the EU member states as equal partners. His rhetoric have changed indeed his goals not really, at best his means have become increasingly bloody and ruthless. If you can't see that Russia wants to rebuild its colonial empire in Europe I really can't help you. And if you can't see that colonial empires are based on oppression and exploitation I can't help you either. Maybe read how the old East Block worked economically, communist economy aside it was just the same old story.
You really seem to believe the US to be all powerful apparently. This has little to do with reality and lies at odds with the actual EU legislation which is often at odds with what the US would like. Does the US have influence? Of course it has but it is not nearly as total as you seem to believe and it is rooted in Europe's dependence. I listed a boat load of initiatives that are being undertaken right now to reduce those dependencies for that very reason. Most of them are something the US opposes to varying degrees (from mildly to hysterically). If your world view held any water, hardly any of those would exist.
European unification happened of course in the context of "PAX America" but it was formed by the interests of many players. The fading away of the Western European Union was certainly a consequence of US opposition for example. That does not change the fact that a unified Europe within the EU is the only realistic chance for European autonomy and shared sovereignty without being vassals of either the US or Russia, which is as I said, the key reason why the US and the Russian regime are firing with all their propaganda might against the EU nowadays and you appear to have completely fallen for it.
was beneficial to both side ... could have seen it coming
China producing everything is also beneficial to both sides but we know what it means. Airbus was created to prevent dependency. IT technology is more important. Russia has its own search engine, we don't have one. That's not short-sightedness, that is closing eyes.
if you are really that naive and truly believe that Putin ever intended to see the EU member states as equal partners.
I guess I am. How could Putin be able to succeed in domination? I can't imagine that he is that deluded. He has to mean equal terms when he says it.
And if you can’t see that colonial empires are based on oppression and exploitation I can’t help you either.
To me it looks like we are staying in and becoming even more part of the US empire. Can you see that? We have our projects, but e.g. all the space stuff, we can't compete on launch costs and there is no improvement in sight.
Maybe read how the old East Block worked economically, communist economy aside it was just the same old story.
It's fundamentally different. The West was successful because we exploited Africa and Asia. The much smaller East couldn't compensate. It's like Cuba in big with the difference that it is not Cuba's decision to be isolated. China did the joined market and is thriving. The USSR wanted to correct and got dismantled in the process, thanks to Yeltsin.
The Capitalists have managed to frame Communism as Russian imperialism while it was done by a Georgian and later continued by a Ukrainian. There are ethnic elements but it was also Russia who left the USSR. Are Russians to blame when a Georgian resettles them?
Of course it has but it is not nearly as total
as you seem to believeand it is rooted in Europe’s dependence.
I believe that. That's enough.
If your world view held any water, hardly any of those would exist.
The US don't need total control. They just need enough that Europe stays dependent and they can e.g. bomb Iran without the EU treating it like that other war of aggression which would call for sanctioning the US.
The fading away of the Western European Union was certainly a consequence of US opposition
What do you mean?
That does not change the fact that a unified Europe within the EU is the only realistic chance for European autonomy
To an extend. I don't think we have to become a unified European state. Once we do, Brussels will be conquered like Washington.
Also don't forget that creating an economic zone with the Russian Federation could be an option and could turn the EU into a major power. Combine it with a capital tax and it could become something where we don't fear for our autonomy but can be a guardian of freedom.
The difficult part would be to find a form that doesn't threaten the US.
without being vassals of either the US or Russia, which is as I said, the key reason why the US and the Russian regime are firing with all their propaganda might against the EU nowadays and you appear to have completely fallen for it. was beneficial to both side
I think the US and Russia shouldn't be seen as the same. The EU will remain a vassal of the US because we are at war with Russia and can't play them against each other, or even pull Russia into our fold. Russia has more land but we are bigger.
We say that the US is not our friend anymore but we continue to install Palantir and we condemn Iran's reaction but not the US attack. We say one thing but do the other.
It is a real relief, but somehow i have a bad feeling about him 'serving the country from the opposition'.
Magyar may have a supermajority. We'll know in the morning fingers crossed.
About fucking time. I'm proud to say that I've contributed to this outcome.
I'm gonna go dance in the street now.
Just like the millions of us. The sun is surely shining brighter
Good job, Hungary!
First let us keep hopes low; we must learn from Labour in the UK to not overpromise.
That is what I also want. So let us pull the Overton window back. Talking to these people, constantly on them. They need to be exposed to our views more than to the views of fascists.
There is a message to be said for multiple people. At the core, it is the same.
Good riddance. But trust is earned, so let's judge the guy until we have seen what he actually did.
It's not just Magyar though. We elected the party that was built from the ground up, without any members of the former corrupt leading or opposition parties. Lots of independent business owners and academics. It was a vote for Tisza, and Magyar is the PM with a very strong moral compass towards anti-corruption.
Is new president any good? I heard he is conservative.
Yes he is. But thats just Hungary, they are the manifestation of nationalism. You could make a left-leaning candidate go up against literal Hitler and Hitler would probably win. So Im pretty happy that it turned out this way, Magyar can make some meaningful changes which may pave the way for more future changes. Cant do a 180° to a whole country overnight.
not a consie, center-right to right.
That is conservative
i treat it as not all conservatives are consies
aka my definition of consie is "a dumb conservative"
But the comment you replied to called him a conservative...
yes, he is one and isn't a consie.
GOOD job hungarians.
I'm not Hungarian but I was at Batthany ter from 6PM to 2AM and experiencing history by yourself is much different than seeing it on TV. There was a group of high schoolers in front of me who were hugging among eachother constantly once they knew Tisza won, broke my heart.
When I was coming back, on the shuttle bus to Warsaw Chopin a Hungarian woman was watching a recap of the election night smiling, and when a bird's eye video of the crowd appeared she was shaking her head in disbelief/pride. Yes, I was watching her phone from above - standing - while she was sitting, shut up
With those kind of rosy-eyed stories in Poland we say "and then the bus driver sat up and started clapping" and indeed I may be on an emotional high compared to people who just saw the facts on TV, though I don't even feel a fraction of some Hungarians may be feeling.
Also I couldn't join in on any of the chants but the simplest "-ria, -ria, Hungaria" lol
So he does have a two third majority... maybe call me a pessimist, but i believe that orban is either gonna make spme kind of law before where magyar needs more than two third to change something or there is something else going on in the background. I mean, Orban would most likely land in prison if the state really would change?
Yes, he does. 69.35%, with just 1.06% left to be counted.
Ah, so the supermajority is official now? Great news.
Yes. Few seats are close, but votes from abroad are counted when they arrive later, and those usually are not fans of Orban
Depends on the generation. Older or earlier emigrants are Orbanists for sure. More recent ones are not.
My childhood friend who fucked off to Canada, got kicked out and banned from ever entering again, and now lives in Florida, is a massive Trumper, immigrant hater (ironic), and a reservist-dependa. She voted for Orbán every time.
If Orban is so great then why does that friend not live in Hungary? Curious.
Because she's a dependapotamus of an American nation guard reservist.
Aah, so she's not a strong independent woman then.
No. But I'm not sure how that comes into the picture.
Maybe he is already on a plane to russia