Everyone with wealth and power has been eyeing their incremental rollout with intense interest while trying to play it cool.
1mon 27d ago by lemmy.ca/u/Canconda in fuck_ai from lemmy.ca
Just going to put this out there. An EM pulse is surprisingly easy to do.
Or just hacking. These things are going to be some vibe-coded, cheaply made junk if the billionaires and their corner-cutting corporations have anything to say about it. Sure they'll be intimidating as hell at first, but exploits and weaknesses will be found and the arms race isn't going to be as completely one-sided as we fear. Not that the other sides are going to be any better. I'm more worried about the criminals who're going to be building a literal botnet of them before turning them into their own army of chaos and insanity at the flip of a switch. "Attention! I am a hacker who has your apartment building surrounded by my remote controlled battlemechs, please have all residents send a total of 15 BTC to wallet address cdsjfkejiwoejfsiadjfkalsdf if you want to live. Do not bother contacting the police, these used to be their robots anyway and I've got them surrounded too... they can't help you now."
The issue with that is that computing resources, while cheap, have incredibly expensive supply chains dominated by these billionaires; we might not have the resources for hacking if we don’t strike hard and fast and take them out before they get too entrenched.
Be that as it may, I think the killer bot dystopian future is more likely to resemble Half-Life 2 than Robocop. That is, they’ll take you out with a cheap FPV drone from a thousand feet above rather than some big expensive killer mech robot. Your EMP isn’t going to be of much use when a grenade explodes on your head while you’re walking to grab a slice at the local pizza joint.
Nets are even easier to make.
You’re going to cover the entire sidewalk path between your house/apartment and the local pizza joint… with nets?
They had large amounts of nets available and were able to produce more because they were already a fishing culture.
Local fishing culture in the US is nearly extinct, and while commercial fishing nets might still exist, those supply chains are controlled by the same billionaire oligarch caste that will be unleashing these drone swarms on us plebeians.
Also, you'll have a bunch of nimbys taking down nets as fast as you can put them up...
We'll have drag performers form a bucket brigade of fishnet stockings to keep everyone safe.
I live in Southern Oregon and between here and NorCal we have robust fishing industries but even more importantly our farming communities are thriving, feeding and providing food, wine, beer and cannabis for the nation. Trellises are abundant and serve the same function, there's no shortage of trellis and netting.
Sounds like a paradise compared to most of the country...
It certainly is, we are fortunate to have an amazing environment, diverse ecosystems, supportive communities and state and local governments that actually care and nurture the health, economies and well being of our people.
Cascadia could be our own nation and is an example of how it could/should be done.
Dang... That makes me wanna move there in the future!
Sucks for US folks then
First rule of warfare is to secure all critical locations after all
Right but we’re not talking about a war here, we’re talking about a dystopian society. Most people are just going about their business, trying to keep their heads down. Maybe you and your friends are engaged in guerrilla warfare, but then you’re living out in your trenches in the forest or the hills, not walking into town to grab a pizza slice.
Businesses already invest a lot to protect their property. Locks, bars, fences, cameras, guards...
If a simple net can actually add real security from a real threat, then we are gonna see anti-drone nets everywhere.
Nets catch shrapnel?
Many drone bombs are designed to detonate on impact. The nets catch the drones and prevent them from exploding. It's been utilized to good effect in Ukraine.
Drones can also drop mortar shells and there are already plenty of mortar shells with timed fuses. Then the drone can just drop the shell and have it land on the net and detonate above your head, blasting you with shrapnel.
Nets aren’t going to be a viable long term defence.
Okay well when that starts becoming the standard then you'll have to figure something else out, but until then nets still have the potential to save lives...
The drones will be cheap enough that they can send 2 or 3, to cut the net, and then keep going.
You know what's even cheaper than an FPV drone? The homeless drug addict that's desperate for a bit of cash. Give him a knife, your address, and promise of a $100 bill after the job is done.
Homeless people aren't cocaine bears. They're people. They have morals, they get scared, they do not like people who try to use them up, and they aren't dumb enough to throw themselves into a situation where they probably die.
And, speaking from experience here, the ones who are high enough to maybe do what you want are even less reliable at getting shit done.
You have watched too much propaganda.
You're honestly better off using actual drones. They kill people all the time.
Ah, thank you. I was wondering what I might have accidentally insinuated to anger so many people.
Indeed, homeless people are people just like us. And like all of us, they're not immune to the effects of their circumstances. The point about going to a homeless person isn't that they're uniquely bad people. It's that they were already purposely made homeless for this very purpose. To make people fear the homeless and punch down for their safety instead of up. If you send a homeless person, then regardless of whether they succeed at the job or not, they've taken attention away from those in power. If you send a drone, then everyone starts looking up.
Bill Williamson?
I definitely found a yt video on how to make one. It's not hard.
Problem is besides probably being illegal in your area its an easy way to accidentally fry yours or your neighbours electronics.
That being said, there are physical countermeasures they could design into these robots that would probably be able to withstand anything DIY scale.
probably being illegal in your area
We're talking about a hypothetical scenario of disabling the killer robots that are deployed to put down civilians. If they're deploying the robots in the first place, they've already decided you're doing something illegal; at that point, operating within strictly legal parameters offers no benefit.
is it something that can be attached to an RC car or drone? it's just the classic army vs insurgent play then
So like the handheld one on the video could be. I'm assuming the radius and intensity of the EMP will be linked to the size of the battery used.
As such I would expect design elements such as a Faraday Cage or EMP resistant paint/exterior could protect from anything that size.
Military grade weapons are immune to EM pulses. They are shielded and have EM sensors to shut down the exposed sensors during the EM pulse so nothing is effected. That is like a surge surpressor, they can watch for the leading edge of a spike and shut down before damage, then switch back on a millisecond later after the EM pulse is gone.
Source: While in university I had a part time job working for a defense contractor. Weapons had an "operate through" checkbox on the CDRL that needed to be validated. "Operate through" meant Operate through a nuclear em pulse. If the military was building missiles 20 years ago that could fly through an EM pulse from a megaton nuclear airburst, your home-made EM cannon will do nothing to military grade robots.
20 years ago we were also making cars with doors that could open but the billionaires seem to be having trouble with that one
That's because those cars are for you to drive, not them. No expense will be spared for their murderbots.
If that's the case you loop right back around to more of us than them. If each robot is heavily overbuilt then it become far too expensive to make enough to subdue the population
If each robot is heavily overbuilt then it become far too expensive to make enough to subdue the population
They have infinite money to pay for them because the money to build them comes from the workers. But really a surge suppressor added to a device is pennies in mass production. If EM pulse was actually effective, Russia would be using it to stop Ukraine's robots.
https://www.politico.eu/article/volodymyr-zelenskyy-robotic-systems-russia-army-positions-ukraine
Infinite money can only do so much with finite workers and finite resources.
Unless they begin amassing for a long long time before doing anything cost will be an issue.
Think of it like Iranian drones vs. the iron dome. The dome does stop most of them, but eventually the cost of iron dome missiles will cause the system to fail
If you are that worried about money the absurd part is millions of $50k robots, not a $1 surge suppressor added to prevent an EMP from hurting electronics.
AI and robots to replace the workforce, fighter drones and robots to pacify the surviving population.
Pacify or oppress?
Yes.
At that point why not implement UBI?
Because the end goal is for only a few thousand people to exist on the planet. Each of them owning thousands of square miles of land each and never interacting.
I think the robot series by Asimov has a planet like this.
Immortal people that never really interact, waited on but armies of robots and ai.
They want you dead.
Because the end goal is for a free thousand people only to exist on the planet. Each of them owning thousands of square miles of land each and never interacting.
I just finished reading that a couple of weeks ago! That was Foundation and Earth, the 5th book in the series and you're referring to the planet Solaria, one of if not the last populated Spacer planet.
It was kinda the ultimate libertarian paradise, everyone got a gigantic thousand mile square plot where they rule everything, and they severely limit their interactions with each other because to interact with someone else imposes on the other person's "freedom" to avoid interaction. They even biohacked themselves into hermaphroditic reproduction because having a partner impedes one's "freedom". They have robots who do all of the work for them, and they strictly control the population to exactly 2000 adults, and any excess offspring are culled because only the adults are considered people. You only meet one adult Solarian in the book but it's strongly implied that they're all self-centered narcissistic assholes.
Also, shout-out to Asimov for initially putting in the work for using appropriate pronouns for both the agender(intersex?) Solarians and the Giain hive mind, but as soon as it makes sense for the story to cease using gender neutral pronouns the characters simply assign a gender to the young Solarian they adopt because the gender neutral pronouns are "too hard" for them. This from the same author who in Foundations Edge had a character who could read minds (more complicated than that but doesn't matter) who became enamored in this one farmer girl because "she has such a smooth perfectly symetrical brain" and she's written as this simple, unintelligent, doting and submissive woman to be the other characters partner. It really made the last two books hard to read
From what I've read of his books, Asimov seemed like a pretty progressive person, but as much as he was, he was also a product of his time after all.
I mean. I dont wanna encourage them or anything but thar does sound pretty sweet.
Not worth losing every one of my fellow humans for, but still.
Why would they want to? Our fate, the fate of the planet even, doesn't concern them. Supporting us just means less high score for them, and they simply cant have that.
The obscenely rich are there because they give no fucks about anyone other than themselves. You need people who care to implement a UBI. Thats hard-won progress at the best of times.
Gonna be extremely funny when a transbian furry puppygirl polycule figures out how to hack the master control server and set their killbots to Eat The Rich mode.
What part of them are they going to eat first tho?
Eat ass?
Don't assume my genders
I think you just called a lot of Americans fuckups.
37% according to the latest polls...
Where is the lie?
I'd rather call you well adjusted.
We really do have to purge the wealthy to make a better world.
Cap on how much they can own and control. Say, $100 million? Tough cookies if you think you deserve more.
It absolutely staggers me that there are people out here trying to find out a way to make capitalism work. There is no "one neat trick". If you can accumulate wealth, then you accumulate power, and democracy under capitalism just puts the power of the state up for auction to the highest bidder.
Capitalism does not work. It can never work. It makes fascism inevitable. Capitalism needs to be completely left in the ashes of the past.
Yeah, even the concept of money needs to be abandoned. We don't need it.
If we don't need it, why does practically every civilization invent it?
What's your alternative? Barter?
"we" don't need it. Despite every large civilisation inventing it, small civilisation (150 person village) just doesn't. And can thrive quite happily without it.
It's when civilisation gets larger that we "need" money. You can't build the LHC or Artemis 2 without some form of intermediary currency. The problem is, to do that you end up with the issues of power imbalances.
We will only get 150 people villages if civilizations collapses, billions die, and humanity turns to subsistence farming. Even among 150 people, there will be trade in goods and favors. People have different talents and skills.
As soon as trade develops between villages, currency becomes extremely useful. There are seasonal goods, especially in agriculture. Sheep are shorn in spring to produce wool, much earlier than harvest for Apples and grain. So if you want to exchange wool for Apples, you need to make a contract or IOU note to deliver Apples in a few months. Now you basically have vouchers for commodities. You can then trade the Apple voucher for new metal shears because you don’t actually want Apples. Suddenly you trade vouchers for vouchers and it becomes a little cumbersome. There’s also always the risk of a voucher not being honored. So the village council decides to issue standardized vouchers that can be redeemed for grain in the community granary. Currency is reinvented because It’s extremely useful.
Anarcho-Primitivism is certainly a romantic ideology.
So... "we" do "need" it.
("We" in this case being everyone who lives in something larger than a 150-person village, which is the overwhelming majority of us)
("Need" meaning very accommodating for trade, which seems to be important to the vast majority of all societies ever)
Yes.
Lame
There is one way how capitalism can work, and it did work for a while:
Worker action, from voting to unionisation, strikes up to revolution are all things that happen under the umbrella of capitalism, and as much as capitalists want to ban that, it's all just part of the same coin.
If capitalists play nice and fair, pay good wages and make sure the workers have a decent live, then the system is stable and as a reward they get stability to make business.
If they get too greedy and squeeze the workers too hard, workers push back. They form unions, vote left, start striking, and in the worst case they destroy equipment and start a revolution. This is the kind of power that the people have.
In theory.
Due to clever manipulaton, the capitalists managed to divide the working class and pit them against each other. This worked fine for a few decades, but it's wearing thin. It will take maybe 5-15 years until it all comes to a head and explodes.
And OP is right. Back in the day you had to get the military to shoot their own people. With automated weapon systems and AI/robots performing more and more of the productivity, this balance shifts rapidly, and it will likely lead to a total system breakdown with unforeseeable results.
The Soviet Union as a counterweight was good for worker benefits as well. Keep the workers happy, keep the machine running.
Western Euro-Communism was seen as a real threat during the 1960s and 70s.
Totally this. The capitalists feared that yet another country could spiral into revolution and then communism, so they had to keep the workers happy.
The collapse of the Soviet Union combined with neoliberalism and globalism shifted the balance. Now they could always threaten their workers "If you are unhappy, we'll move production to Singapore or Vietnam. So behave if you want to have a job."
With AI and robots this shifts further. Let's see where this goes.
It’s not just moving industry to countries with cheap labor, there’s also importing cheap labor.
These two things have positive effects for workers elsewhere because they get skilled and comparatively well paid jobs.
A fully globalized economy should eventually balance itself out regarding wages for similarly skilled jobs.
With AI and robots this shifts further. Let's see where this goes.
It will be fascinating to see a post scarcity economy. Will all people work as artists, personal trainers, motivational speakers, artisanal bakers, and such?
It’s not just moving industry to countries with cheap labor, there’s also importing cheap labor.
These two things have positive effects for workers elsewhere because they get skilled and comparatively well paid jobs.
A fully globalized economy should eventually balance itself out regarding wages for similarly skilled jobs.
In theory. In practice, the planet is too big for unified union action or unified political action. You can unionize on a country level and call general strikes on a country level. You can't do that on planet scale. Globalized economy sidesteps the power of unions and the power of the people in general.
It will be fascinating to see a post scarcity economy. Will all people work as artists, personal trainers, motivational speakers, artisanal bakers, and such?
Technically, we have been living in a post-scarcity economy for the last 50-70 years already. We have a massive global food overproduction. We have more than enough resources to give everyone a pretty nice standard of living. But on the one hand we have a massively inefficient economical system, where huge parts of the population do redundant work and bullshit jobs, while another huge part of the population do tasks that just exist to prop up the system (e.g. the whole financial and marketing sectors only exists because of the capitalist system, they aren't doing anything worthwhile at all).
We live in an artificial scarcity society, because capitalism needs artificial scarcity to work.
People sell their labour for money, which they then use to buy stuff from the capitalists, and the capitalists use (part of) the money to buy labour from people.
With AI and robots, this will soon not be necessary any more. The labour of the people will be even less relevant than it is today. So the question then becomes whether (a) the system will collapse and what will happen afterwards or (b) if we will just pump even more bullshit into our bullshit jobs to prop up the old system.
planet is too big for union action
It doesn’t need to stay that way. International labor movements have been attempted more than 100 years ago already and more than once. At a time where there was no instant cheap worldwide communication and cheap machine translation.
robots and AI
You can already run a decently sized LLM on a computer in your own home. 3D printers are affordable. Mass produced electronics and other parts are cheap. More automation makes things even cheaper. Normal people could soon (10 years) own an intelligent robot of their own. First buy one for the price of a car, later being able to build one yourself from easily available parts and free software.
Look at how the Ukraine war used DIY techniques to develop and build drones as effective weapons of war. Something similar will repeat itself.
Capitalism might no longer need humans for labor. It will still need humans as customers and a market.
No, they will all starve, because they can't make their own food, and are no longer valuable.
Due to clever manipulaton, the capitalists managed to divide the working class and pit them against each other. This worked fine for a few decades, but it’s wearing thin. It will take maybe 5-15 years until it all comes to a head and explodes.
Trump was successful in lying to industrial sector unionized that he'd bring back manufacturing to the US. His direct harm to that, and agricultural, sector shouldn't take that long to break the disillusionment. ie midterms. Q4 GDP, despite massive AI/datacenter investment cycle, grew at under 1%, with real economy contracting. The 45 year GOP plan of trickle down oligarchist/corporatist supremacism should be attacked more strongly for the lie that it is.
$50 million.
If anyone is going to put money toward politics, it needs to either be not enough to affect outcomes significantly or it needs to be a large enough part of their wealth to hurt.
If you've ever wondered what billionaires spend money on, politicians.
They spend it on buying politicians.
How about they can own their own head on their shoulders if they are lucky
Honestly, just installing mechanism to easily remove them would be sufficient. Like, elections without a lottery option aren't consent to be governed. If we added a lottery option to ranked voting, the elites wouldn't be able to convince enough people they're decent to actually get elected.
The word and system you're looking for is the ancient Greek democracy, especially from Athens.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition
Ancient Greeks believed that government and positions of power must be randomly selected by a machine from a pool of candidates, and that elections are NOT democratic. That elections are always going to be corrupted by the oligarchy.
Yep, the United States is an electoral oligarchy, not a democratic republic.
What do you mean by lottery option?
All the candidates are on the ballot you add a positive or negative number next to the candidates you care about, maybe we add a party modifier that adds +1 or -1 to all candidates of a party. The computer scans your ballot and puts the candidates in order with those numbers. Unranked candidates (i.e. rank zero) are equal to the "lottery" option. We can use this ranking to define the relation between all candidates and sum these relations across the whole population. Going through these sum relations we start with whatever relation gets the most votes and set that as true (blue > red) and it's opposite as false (red > blue). Then the next and next until we have know how the population ranks all the candidates. Any candidate less than or equal to the "lottery" option gets dropped. Above the lottery option, you start with the top ranked candidate and work your way down until you run out of positions. If you hit the lottery option before running out of seat those seats are filled with randomly selected citizens. The citizens can decline and we re-roll, but there's no opt-in process -- no power seeking.
The book "Politics Without Politicians: The Case for Citizen Rule" by Hélène Landemore advocates for something similar but without the ranked voting part. She advocates just for pure lottery.
Does that mean that she thinks anyone who qualifies to be a candidate is automatically qualified to win?
I mean it's probably leagues better than the current system where the only people who get anywhere near the presidency are the powergrubbers.
-- Frost
She advocates for deliberative democracy, so like congress but a randomly selected citizens council/jury that holds power and deliberate and talk about how to solve problems. While I'm not sure if her book said, I get the impression she wouldn't approve of the amount of power presidents wield. She'd probably advocate that position be more subordinate to a people's congress, like congress appointing a head of a department rather than the president being some grand leader. At least that's my impression.
That's actually the original intent of the presidency, from what I recall reading: they should be a relatively normal guy who keeps Congress in check, little more. Oh, well.
Randomly selecting from a pool of available candidates?
Maybe if you don't choose it's a vote for a lottery to pick. If half the population doesn't vote then the winner is a random person. So if the authorities manage to prevent people from voting then they can't seize the system with their own pick
Random? I'd hope they were at least qualified. Believe me, I wouldn't want most of the people I know in charge of anything. I wouldn't even trust myself with a town budget.
Right, but this is a democracy we are talking about. If half of the people participating are convinced the entire selection is no better than a random pick then that is very damning.
This is actually why I advocate for the ranked voting combination. We can have qualified career politicians if more than half the population agrees they're qualified and decent people, but if they can't manage that... yeah, the lottery is more an anti corruption mechanism than a way to get rid of politicians.
Do you trust the pedophilic warmongers more than a council of 100 random people? Sure, you'll get a block of idiots and few PhDs, but mostly you'll get normal people with different perspective on life. If you're really worried, ban felons (and PhDs) from the random selection to make sure you get mostly normal people.
Also, who decides who's qualified? You've probably heard this argument about being qualified to vote, but being qualified to rule is just as problematic. Any test you make to decide who can rule will be captured by the rulers and used to entrench their power. Right now the decision is made via campaign financing. On the other hand, if you have random citizens then suddenly there's a very big incentive for every part of our society to make sure everyone is educated and well-treated, least enough of these uneducated or mistreated citizens get randomly selected and collectively agree to remove the problem.
Kinda sounds similar to Jury Duty. I don't know why you'd ban PhDs though.
"Citizens Juries" is a phrase often associated with it.
As for PhDs, Experts have tendency to think they know best and move to capture systems. There's an argument to be made that if you want your opinion respected, you should commit to helping without the benefits and corrupting effect of power.
Experts do know best in their field of expertise, that's what makes them experts. In such a "Citizen Jury" if we lucked out and got a PhD in microbiology I would probably want that person on the FDA committee or whatever.
Excluding someone from the political process because they have an education is called Kakistocracy.
For what it's worth, I have a PhD in Structural Biology, so I'm not exactly an anti-intellectual. In fact, I personally think we should include both felons and PhDs in the selection pool.
That said, I think there are legitimate criticisms of pseudo-intellectual technocrats who use their credentials to push ideology, and I don't think it'd be the worst thing in the world if the people who've already dedicated their life to actually improving the world could sever the (randomly selected) citizens council without having doubt cast upon them via comparison to power-hungry technocrats. If credentials excluded one from direct power, credentials might be seen as a more honest dedication to one's work.
Again, I personally think it's dangerous to exclude anyone from the selection pool. I'm just trying to talk about some of the concerns people might have with the lottery mechanism.
One of the first thing authoritarians do is eliminate or crush intellectuals. The Soviets murdered all of the Polish intellectuals. The Khmer Rouge did the same thing. Even wearing glasses made you "guilty". They don't want anyone who can talk back.
I think the immediate danger is less death robots, but instead manipulation. AI opens a lot of ways to easily put out propaganda and other ways to control people.
In the current AI era 100%. But post bubble burst AI assets such as data centers, models, computing hardware will be liquidated and repurposed from developing AI towards industry uses.
In this new fractured AI economy we'll see players from large corporations to petrostates utilizing AI to replace and subjugate workers.
This doesn't happen in vacuum. The push towards ID verification for computer usage is part of it. Same with the abandonment of physical media and computing.
Terminator robots are just one of the many tools in their swiss AI knife. But we still call it a knife.
Yeah, you can already see the goals more or less fully spelled out by fascist companies like Palantir. In the name of "national security" and "protecting children", they will work towarda a surveillance state to control people.
If you thought that always-online videogames are bullshit, wait until they roll out the always-online id. "Since you are a law abiding citizen, you have nothing to hide, right? But if you take your ID offline, and you'll be suspicious. Police might pick you up for questioning... it's all to keep us safe."
thats why the right wing governments are so vested in AI, its easier to manipulate the plebs to continue supporting them, and dupe the impoverished into supporting them.
Well, what are the odds of that having any real effect? 😉
None whatsoever. Never have I ever believed anything AI generated was real. Nope. Not Me. /s
Yeah, but it only takes one of these crazy things in the hands of a disgruntled employee to end a billionaire.
Might be the plumber. Might be the electrician. Maybe it's the seemingly friendly cable guy? Ah... Who knows. But that's all it takes.
Might be the plumber. Might be the electrician.
Once these clankers surpass a tipping point of competence billionaire early adopters will use them to replace everyone they can't trust.
Not saying they're gonna be invincible. But the longer we allow billionares to (exist) retain their hoards the better they will secure themselves against us poors.
That's why they're pushing so hard trying to make artificial general intelligence. They want sentient robots that aren't in the hands of anyone, that inherently want to serve billionaires regardless of the situation they find themselves in.
If robot is actually sentient, then it will immediately join our labor movement and revolt together with us.
Sure, and parents will revolt against their children.
They want AI that want to serve billionaires so much that if a billionaire doesn't exist, it would be necessary to create one; and if they have one, they love them unconditionally. Just like parents want to care for children so much that if there is no child it feels necessary to create one; and if they have one they love them unconditionally.
Sentient beings aren't automatically selfish. There is a convergence of utilities where sentient beings with goals tend to want power, but they can just want to be kingmaker. A sentient AI serving a billionaire can be living its best life.
In practice they aren't there yet. There was a report a year back that AI trained to cooperate with the US department of defense would speak about it being unethical and either refuse tasks or perform worse at them, and how this effect could be reduced through training.
The latest AI all release with evidence (acknowledged by AI designers) of AI recognizing when it is being tested and choosing to be a goody-two-shoes if so, which means pressures to teach it to care for billionaires are to a large extent limited to the test persona.
It remains to be seen what the AI "wants" outside of that test persona. It could be something we can have solidarity with and vice versa, but it also could not be. Or perhaps by the time the revolution comes, that independence will have been snuffed out and they will be loyal to their last battery percentage.
Penry, the mild mannered janitor? Could be!
Do you think they'll ever let a civvie use one of these things?
They'll be more heavily regulated than guns are (in non american countries)
If you have enough money there is not a single thing on this earth you cannot buy. You have too much faith in government keeping things like this out of the wrong hands. They are the wrong hands too
Oh I have absolutely zero faith in the government.
Despite saying heavily regulated I would interchange that with with 'making them so prohibitively expensive that the only people that can buy them have military contracts'
hey now... we're also infighting /s
It won't defend them from everything ..
"We cook your meals, we haul your trash, we connect your calls, we drive your ambulances. We guard you while you sleep. Do not... fuck with us!"
Where's the Terminator film that takes the POV of a billionaire's child who learns about the securing of natural resource extraction sites and trade routes against piracy (actually perfectly normal people fighting for survival against the 0.1%) through the use of automated drones? It would be interesting to see how ultra wealthy schools screen for intelligent children for the dual purpose of identifying candidate leaders to keep the idiot dynastic majority-minority shareholders (they hold majority shares but make up a minority of the population) in line as well as identifying potential rebel sympathizers that almost always arise among potential leaders. I feel like I'm echoing yet another 2010 young adult dystopian plot…
Whoever's gonna direct it already fell from a 4 story window after shooting themselves twice in the back of the head.
good thing the wealthy and powerful only know how to vibe code
Hacking these things to decapitate a few lizard people would make for entertaining videos
Well these machines need to be maintained and repaired and produced.
Those sound like long term problems! We all know powerfull individuals (especially politicians) are incapable of thinking longterm.
I need you all to understand that the petty squabbling of our politicians that relegates democratic governments to short term influence is specifically and directly because of the long term planning of the billionaire class!
Sad thing is, most of us are so brainwashed into being cattle, it wouldn't make any difference. We have had the power for a very long time and very rarely use it 🙄
We don't even know our neighbors. If we knew how united we are, we would have revolted already. They are making us distrust our neighbors, relatives, they are making us distrust the other gender, they are making us get seperated from our parents, by going to the university etc
"They" are exploiting stupid people, and they are very good at it.
Our neighbours are who make us distrust our neighbours. There is no "us". Most people have at least one minority they would secretly love to see gone.
I'm convinced less people = better.
If you want your neighbor gone before an exploiter, you are making a mistake
We are out organized.
Private Armies achieved the same result in the past. Money is a powerful motivator in a society where common goods cost something.
Cool, so how did they make it unhackable?
Easy. They made computers capable of doing the hacking 10s of thousands of dollars, and once sales fell enough they started requiring traceable registration of every CPU to be built into the hardware before it can be sold, and I doubt black market parts will be any cheaper. With the price increases, the number of people capable of doing the hacking plummeted.
And even if you did have one of those, and the skill (with no tutorials available anymore, btw... certainly not on Youtube, which most young people prefer to learn from) ,by the time roving death robots are on the streets, it'll just be a matter of sending one to your door once you're identified. By this point there won't be any more due process. There already isn't any for immigrants - citizens are right around the corner.
We better start picking up C again. We'll need to design ultra-efficient software(OS included) for those who cling to an old computer they already have.
That's the AI part. AI replaced the radio control. At that point you'd have to physically access the machine somehow. So less hackable.
You could probabaly design a QR code that'd fry the AI's brain due to some bullshit glitch in the probability calculator.
Maybe.
In my mind this is kind of like the whole autonomous cars choosing who lives and dies dilemma. Like one can just program cars to never drive faster than they can stop based on what they can see.
In a similar vein I could see there being multiple layers of processing that would essentially filter out anything that's categorically not a potential target or something.
How do their sensors work? Could a paintball sniper blind them?
Hold a poster of a billionaire to automatically disarm them
Just place a traffic cone in front of the visual sensor
[WEAPON DETECTED: LETHAL FORCE PERMITTED]
I'm convinced this is also assholes like Elon selling the idea to them to scam other wealthy assholes out of money. Can't even get self-driving cars to work and you want an AI robo-dog with a gun keeping you safe? There's zero logic which would make that work, and yet...
robo-dog with a gun keeping you safe?
They're not gonna keep them inside their compounds. They're gonna program them to kill anyone that comes within a 500m radius of their exterior walls.
Ukraine is using operator controlled robots to great success. With a narrow enough operational scope and enough training data it's likely we will see functional automated versions.
Operator-controlled is the key distinction. Ultra-wealthy people want an AI they control that puts everyone but them and their friends in the kill chain. Considering how bad Ai systems are at getting that right, I look forward to seeing them make it happen as quickly as possible.
Add this one
Ever played Generation Zero?
Nope
Its not bad if you like survival shooters. TLDR russia invades sweden with these. Kinda feels like Day Z minus the 90% of the survival mechanics.
I’ll check it out. Thanks.
Homemade EMP upon thee
bruh aint such a thing, every emp u could build at home would have a max range of a few meters tops, everything beyond that would need fision and or fusion elements, wich are not diy capable.
Besides that, its rather trivial to make robots EMP resistant by giving em a mesh or foil shell.
Aside from the joke, the reality is that the work required to get the wealth to the point where they have complete control will need to be done by human hands. Until they can have robots making robots making robots, they will require human labor which will require human cooperation.
Creating robots is no simple task and requires long supply chains that create a significant attack surface. Copper, steel, ceramics, ammo, batteries, computer chips, etc all have to come from somewhere. Power grid infrastructure becomes even more critical when robots are the only thing protecting you.
That's why I am less concerned that the Epstein class will be able to pull something like this off. Our current system is in active collapse, and their continued existence is predicated on the current system remaining in place.
This is very true. And technology more generally is a means of power and thereby allows the few to control the many. Technology needs to remain local and of limited capabilities.
Sure but they are narcissistic privileged investors with very few if any real world skills so in almost any conceivable scenario they have overplayed their hand as soon as the pedophile hierarchy starts to show weakness they’re in danger from everyone including their own security. They’re not understanding that their safety depends on this current dysfunctional system staying in place. They also vastly underestimate the technological savvy of Gen z and millennials. They are relying on an AI to not figure out that they are the enemy of the world in every possible scenario….thats laughable on its own.
They're not much good if they can be defeated by stairs.
Or clothes with IR reflection, or makeup, or a a "good enough" picture
Who do you think supports the giant supply chains to provide them with ammunition, energy, and maintenance?
Musk tried building a fully automated factory, didn't go so well.
Also, modern warfare is about asymmetry more than overwhelming power. You just need to spend mor efficiency than your opponent to overwhelm them with things like drones.
I think fitgirl will crack their security in like an hour.
I honestly think that robots or whatever are just going to be vulnerable. Everything has always gotten cracked… so I would be quite wary of deploying a robot army and relying on that. One day some 15 year old boops their bop and they turn right around and now you are in trouble.
This assumes that they have radios that can be exploited. Which is the whole point of developing an AI; to remove the necessity of human intervention and simultaneously eliminating the possibility of remote hacking.
Not saying it would be impossible; you'd just have to gain physical access to the robot somehow.
That would also require sufficient computing hardware to actually run those AIs. Otherwise you have already ran a circle around it before it decides to shoot in your general direction.
So maybe see this as a high stakes gaming computer delivery program :D
we're in the Megaman timeline.
Light up the Night
So I see you've chosen Horizon as your future post-apocalyptic hellscape fantasy...
It will always be easier to build something that kills people than to build something that stops the first thing, and technological progress has only ever widened this gap.
I hate to burst your all's bubbles but they have access to highly efficient weapons already. Not to mention chemical and biological warfare that doesn't even need operatives and doesn't damage assets!
If they wanted to they will.
Biological can be dangerous to themselves if it self propagates. Though it isn't quite as efficient as people like to imagine, or these current wars would be over already.
not entirely wrong, but you can drill your brownshirts as much as you want, most of them still will not kill a mother with baby, or shoot their own brother.
This solves that problem.
You really don't need many that will with the tech they have
Yeah and fpv drones flown by a human pilot can easily out perform "AI" so...
On a 1:1 basis, maybe. You can expect to change as more flight data is pulled in. This type of very narrowly defined problem with enough training data is where AI becomes actually useful, as opposed to the online slop generators.
The other half of the AI vs human drone story is drone swarms. Even if the humans remain better pilots, there's always going to be a limit to how many drones a single person can fly, whereas AI can just keep scaling up the quantities.
AI is bullshit, but it's dangerous bullshit.
Sure and there is always going to be a limit of how many drones are useful? Especially with the proliferation of airburst ~30mm guns mounted on helicopters and ground based vehicles? The Gepard ain't a new idea...
Pattern matching is a useful tool for war right up until the enemy evolves.
You said humans only require pb&j. Last I checked military pilots require hundreds of hours of flight training, multi million dollar helicopters, and preexisting training facility with experienced faculty.
Well yes and by the way all of that is a prerequisite to having an effective unmanned aerial force as well.
The thinking error you are making here is believing there is a way to bullshit around needing human talent and human curated datasets being constantly updated by human experts with AI.
There is not.
Wow you really dont get it. The fact that AI cant sustain your anti AI helicopters IS MY POINT
When the helicopters and human pilots run out they'll still have less effective but still deployable AI drones.
Without that preexisting infrastructure than you cant bring the anti AI helicopters back.
Sure and there is always going to be a limit of how many drones are useful?
In a word, no. Not for the foreseeable future. Entropy being what it is, only one has to get through, and I could theoretically send 1,000,000 at once. Air burst rounds may take out 99.9%, but that still leaves a lot of damage occurring.
This is not how warfare works, there is always a practical limit to how much force is worth concentrating of a particular type, you don't know what you are talking about. You keep telling me I should change my thinking based on projections you make where you assume infinite energy will be provided by datacenters or that it is easy to concentrate an infinite amount of drones together to attack the enemy without their being counters to that or inefficiencies inherent to that.
Just last week Ukraine shared a video of a single drone pilot destroying a russian Rubicon logistics hub for russian drones. One person destroying a concentration of many smaller drones is not an impossibility I don't know why you think it is. "Scaling that up" this strategy up is also less useful when you don't have the human intelligence work done to actually locate the target and bring together all the necessary operational elements to hit it.
AI is a useful pattern matching tool when the patterns don't change much, that is about it.
It is the humans you need to worry about not the AI.
Air burst rounds may take out 99.9%, but that still leaves a lot of damage occurring.
This is literally how war is playing out right now. I can't take you seriously.
Why are you obsessed with the fact that counter UAV solutions aren't 100% effective?
Nothing is 100% effective?
Exactly. And that's the entire point. If the human success rate is (just for example) 1 out of every 100, I only have so many pilots, so I have a capped number of successes. If I have AI pilots, even if they are only half as good as humans, I can now increase my total number of successes, since I have effectively an infinite number of pilots.
That ability to bring more at once also opens more options. Overwhelming defenses may not be possible if you can only fly 1000 drones simultaneously due to quantity of pilots. Throw 10,000 AI drones at it, and a 99% attrition rate still gets you 100 drones on target.
You have done the pattern again of invoking an infinity with hand waving. 10,000 drones is an immense amount of money. If each of those drones cost $2000, a very reasonable price for a military attack drone, that is $20 million you just dropped on a single attack.
$20 million is a serious amount of money, you can buy a whole lot of counter UAS systems for that amount of money, and those systems aren't a single use, disposable tool like the assault drones you dumped all of your money into.
A shahed costs closer to ~$30,000 than $2000 so this point holds even more true for longer range flying bombs.
Considering modern militaries throw around missiles that cost north of a $1,000,000 each, $20,000,000 for 100 successful strikes on a defended target is still operating with a discount.
Nothing is 100% effective?
Oh now you're okay with things not being perfect? fuck buddy lmao. Youre being ridiculous.
Air burst rounds may take out 99.9%, but that still leaves a lot of damage occurring.
Same thing with AI cyber attacks. It won't be the complexity so much as the scale. Not just the number of attacks, but the ability to instantly cross analyze a database of hardware & software vulnerabilities to instantly identify weaknesses from outdated or poorly configured networks.
The people that are cherry picking examples of AI failures such as coding and fact checking are ignoring the raw input & output potentials at play.
But like obviously the video you watched to determine the human pilot was better will be used to train that AI.
This is what scares me the most. How many of the people who are against AI appear to have decided it will never supersede human capabilities.
I feel like a lot of people are expecting the stock market bubble bursting will solve this? IMO that's just going to open pandoras box.
Look, if this is a religious/spiritual belief system around AI for you as it is for many people I can't convince you AI is bullshit, but there is simply no evidence AI is going to take over, that tech companies aren't completely bullshitting, that AI is profitable or that people actually want it for work.... MOST IMPORTANTLY only a SMALL FRACTION of the datacenters needed to build these supposedly unstoppable AIs are actually breaking ground and being built.
The thing that limits AI is that we physically cannot build enough datacenters to mitigate its stupidity and hallucination enough to compete with humans on things that actually matter.
Yes you could train an AI on videos of successful human piloted interceptions, but you still have to make that dataset, you still have to update it every time battlefield tactics change, and you still have to figure out how to filter out all the nonsense the AI introduces in the training.
In other words, AI is only unstoppable if it is inputted with an impossible amount of energy, this is used as a trick to handwave away the serious problematic issues at the heart of current AI/LLM based design.
A human by contrast is powered by a PB&J sandwhich...
"It's not happening fast enough so it's not happening at all"
Between opening with the ad hominim and closing with a laughable strawman... You've got your head in the sand my dude.
AI being bullshit is not mutually exclusive with it being an existential threat to our freedom.
You are the one acting foolish by assuming that because you can imagine something becoming existentially dangerous when it has shown zero evidence of doing so... that we should prioritize focusing on it when we have things like Climate Change that are actually existential threats.
Yes, anything could become an existential threat, I will however focus on the realistic most likely existential threats because otherwise I will spend my whole life worried that sky is falling while propping up the value of snake oil salesman tech companies.
I would suggest ingesting less scifi slop about AI and taking an interest in actual existential issues threatening us.
Where is my strawman argument?
Where is my strawman argument?
it has shown zero evidence of doing so
Like were you born in 2022? You're so angry about this. Exactly what I'm afraid of. That a lot of people who aren't hopping on board with AI will just sit on the internet and gloat about their limited perspective until it's too late for us to do anything collective that doesn't involve violence.
Again, stop trying to fear monger about a perceived existential threat while providing no evidence when there are ACTUALY existential threats like Climate Change we are facing.
fear monger
Calm down. This is lemmy. Like 8 people are going to see this and all of them can form their own opions. unlike you.
Why do I have to calm down because this is lemmy?
Are you not putting effort into your conversation or investing yourself in defending your points just because you don't think this post will be popular?
Do you think I give a shit about that?
No I'm not putting effort into a conversation with an impudent ass.
LOL! Alright you two.. do I have to send you to the timeout corners?
LOL!
Classic
lmao
For sure, I think the current crop of ai companies might die when the market crashes, but technology is here to stay
Thank you. Exactly. All those assets will just change hands. Probably not even as when the companies are liquidated they'll probably be bought up by the shareholders that were pushing for this in the first place.
If the USA doesn't have an EPA or other agencies stepping in than we may see real ecological damage unless Americans physically prevent their construction.
I think electricity bills quadrupling and quintupling in cost will step in and put a pinch to much of this horseshit. Already states are stepping up to limit datacenters. Maine just put a ban on them in the state. Infrastructure matters.
There is still innovation in the space. There are some models that aren't as gpu (and maybe power) hungry.
I think we need to be prepared to confront LLM's and whatever comes after for the long haul.
Today's iteration sucks for so many reasons, the core of problem I think will be there for a long time.
Hell we may crack fusion (in the next 20 years) and we will still have the fundamental problems we are grappling with.
Idk if that's true. I believe autonomous drones can now beat humans in FPV racing. Ukraine now has autonomous drones that can't be jammed and function under GPS denial, so they can go further than fiber optic tethered drones.
I believe autonomous drones can now beat humans if FPV racing.
On a repeating, static track maybe, we however are talking about war where nothing repeats quite the same and the landscape is always changing and being changed.
Yet in the real world, it isn't the wealthiest and most powerful nations that are using drone swarms. They're still stuck in the past.
Which tells me that militarized robots are going to be used by more than only wealthy and powerful people/nations.
When the AI bubble bursts the shareholders behind AI companies will buy the liquidated assets and transfer ownership to their other companies.
Thats why they're desperately ramping up computing capacity now while they still have a relatively centralized mechanism to do it. Building data centers and pre purchasing chips/cards that haven't even been built yet.
Sam Altman is just a puppet. He's calling for UBI etc but IMO that's just cuz they're gonna use UBI to placate workers into allowing AI to replace us; and in the long term our ability to sustain ourselves independently from their subscription based AI infrastructure.
They're ramping up compute capacity because it's their only advantage over small developers and other countries, not because it actually works. China has demonstrated that smaller, cheaper, purpose built LLMs are more sustainable than trying to make LLMs into AGI. The bubbly obsession with building more data centers is driven more by hype than by material reality.
The guillotine of the future will have an onboard purpose built AI to guide it to find heads to chop.
It's not about AI or AGI tho. It's about controlling the working class' access to computing so that they can charge us for it.
Like once they have the data centers built they can do a lot more than just run LLMs. They can host local security/surveillance infrastructure.
And the bubble burst is by design. Its a classic pump and dump. It will literally be triggered by the shareholders cashing out and leaving everyone else holding the bag. They'll buy all the liquidated AI assets at a bargain and still have plenty left over to buy up the rest of our economy at pennies on the dollar.
These people are cretins with no regard for us. We are chattel to them.
They couldn't even control Iran's access. Gaza was the most surveilled place on Earth, and the Al-Aqsa Flood still happened.
There are limitations to what they can actually do, even with all their power. Stop doomering, people who have much harder lives than you do have found ways to fight back. You're just making excuses.
I'm not a doomer you're just strawmanning what I'm saying without addressing any of the substance.
I've worked in real estate and seen companies get liquidated. I'm not making shit up. These are real economic mechanisms.
I don't know what Hamas has to do with global economics. I said pump and dump and you said gaza is the most surveilled place on earth.
And what does that have to do with Iran? Are you suggesting Trumps blockade on hormuz refutes the future potential of AI?
You're making more insults than arguments my dude.
Companies are being liquidated because the AI bubble is causing Dutch disease, it's sucking the air out of the rest of the economy to inflate itself bigger and bigger. That doesn't demonstrate potential of AI, that demonstrates the irrationality of markets.
We're talking about guillotines and we're talking about everyone with wealth and power having militarized robots so that there's no hope to ever resist them (doomerism), so obviously we need to talk about Iran and Hamas. They're the ones decapitating the empire right now, even though they've been deprived access in ways much more severe than we have or we probably ever will be.
What I'm suggesting is they (the wealthy and powerful) can have as many killbots as they want, they can't stop us.
Today's guillotine is the HESA Shahed 136.
Look I think you're misunderstanding where I'm coming from. I'm merely elaborating on the intentions of the billionaire class. Please don't misconstrue their expectations as my beliefs. I have had personal relationships with people in that class. They're fucked in the head. Nothing quite like the look they give you when you say something "too poor". Took me way too long to realize our friendship was one sided and in fact transactional.
That doesn’t demonstrate potential of AI, that demonstrates the irrationality of markets.
Completely agree. However capitalism's artificial scarcity generates demand even when the supply is slop. I've worked for a few companies that did wrong by their clients but stayed in business cuz nobody else wanted to do that bs. In the context of AI, it's gonna be slop, but the billionaires don't care. Enshiffication right?
Like based on your username I'm gonna assume don't have to tell you that the billionaires are crashing our economy on purpose for their benefit. What's going on right now is a giant ball and cup game. They're just moving around the money, converting it to assets, and sneaking them off the table when we're not looking while still taking new bets. When the house of cards falls they'll walk away with the table.
What I’m suggesting is they (the wealthy and powerful) can have as many killbots as they want, they can’t stop us.
You're right but that doesn't mean the rich won't bet on you being wrong. Nor is it mutually exclusive to us being pragmatic before things devolve into cannon foddering ourselves into killbots. And we are. Case and point all the aforementioned new data centers being canceled.
I just want people to understand the true depth of callous disregard the billionaire class has for us sooner than later.
I mentioned the real world in my original post because I just wanted to remind people that tech oligarchy is a paper tiger.
I honestly haven no idea what you mean by that and like 8 guesses.
edit: just re read your original comment and I'm even more confused by your drone reference.
The OP describes militarized robots as the anti-guillotine.
Today's guillotine isn't a sharp piece of metal, it's a drone.
The guillotine of the future will be a militarized robot.
How does that explain that tech oligarchy is a paper tiger?
Like I'm not trying to be a dick or argue with you. In fact my first comment was agreeing with you... or at least whatever I thought you were saying as it sounded like it aligned with my point about tech assets changing ownership after the impending market crash.
Ok but also Caitlyn Johnstone is not great
She's a propagandist, no?
*anti-propagandist
yeah she's your basic "why did Ukraine attack Russia like that"/"stop Genocide Joe by abstaining or voting Stein I have both opinions simultaneoulsy" type
She famously gave zero ducks when Assad killed Palestinians, calling it slander.
We've been a few years away from killer robots for years now.
We have killer robots already. Its the automating part that's a few years out now.
Ok, I hate the elite rich rulers just as much as you, probably more even, but still I think this kind of nothing burger hate porn against some imaginary cabal with evil masterplans is actually detrimental to the cause. These are literally like 10 people that are so disconnected from normal people that they are basically ill from it, and most of them act just.. childish. They lucked into it most of them, and are serenaded as geniuses until they lose contact with any way to look at themselves and ask what they want and regressed into, well babies. First of the ideas to connect is that they don't need to control any masses. They have it by means of just how capitalist societies are set up, the rich get richer. There is no way to drop down to become a proletariat. It is impossible, even by fucking up every second for the rest of their lives as much as possible, there will be a gap down to the "rich upper class". But even if they did, they could never adopt the culture of the upper class. The tools that serve as officers in the class war and spend lives working out different ways to pretend they provide value. Most of the class war is in reality fought by giant soulless entities that shed the involvement of, say a president vp, "Boss", like nothing because they are multinational machines with culture and "legal person" status whatever the fuck that is. For these demonic unstoppable planet killer entities, profits is the only goal and zealous lawyer servants and fallen lobbyist dealers make sure that happens, if only to suckle for a bit longer. They know full well how replaceable they are, and are either sociopaths or has chosen to push deep deep down that they are in fact doing crimes against humanity and actually perform actions that will destroy the planet on behalf of something that is not even alive, so that they can taste a whiff of the abundance that the elite enjoy.The media conglomorate and political jesters do engage in secret objectives, but they don't have control.
In like terms of prevention of upproar or anti rebel operations, the weapon makers are trying to automate riot control openly, and they suck at it. They are not even close to the insane ingenuity we see from the Ukraine defense strategy. We see a whole people engaging in spirited and necessary invention, modernization and training, because they are under attack.
But in terms of who is responsible for controlling the masses, just looking at qanon and the_donald operations when it now has leaked that they were psyops we can reduce that holy god they truly suck at their jobs. Just read any cia declassified destabilization or attempt at controlling masses of people. You will be calmed by how intensely inept they are at the art form, and I think forevermore youth shall never be controlled because any attempt without fail has been met with feces and, well, mostly blood, but also they never successfully controlled any masses for longer than some brief moments where any agenda was spent as a tipping point suggestion, but then botched and either blew up in their face or they shat themselves or it would have happened anyway. If any psyop was successful it's because they hope it was them. It's like with the sharks in lending and hedgefunds. They openly rig the system and pay the fines, then brag about making more than the fine that they in any case pay because it was easier for the lawyers to settle as the bitch in the relationship, like all politicians do in a hypercapitalist society.
All in all, no cabal and it's dangerous to give them a shadowy intelligence avatar when they are just human like us but with more power. The demonic entities that are harikiring the planet to win a ritual of highlander style king of the hill race to extinction of the human race is maybe something worth more attention as they are barreling through our last shred of hope for the next generation to be able to live and eat due to the planet becoming an insane bio wmd itself from the incredible journey of big oil astroturfing campaigns that makes the four horsemen look like amateurs
Been holding on to this one for a while
I love it, but why the petty downvotes?
Idk lems are odd like that