EU's Russia Obsession: Nukes, Military Drills, and a Loan No One Can Explain
1mon 22d ago by kbin.earth/u/Maeve in progressivepolitics from youtu.be
So, hundreds of millions, perhaps a few billion pawns die, governments collapse, new technofascist governments rise, or...
The global South, Eastern Bloc somehow pulls off saving whatever remains and the board is reset? Is that how this plays out?
These are certainly interesting times. ¡Viva la Revolución!
Crosspost from https://lemmygrad.ml/post/11435977
I mean, russia is actively invading a neighbour, and has a track record of stirring shit in Europe
Russia is defending Russian lives from literal Nazis. "Stirring shit” means defending their interests. The liberal lying propaganda is falling apart, we're on the brink of a nuclear WW3 and you're cheering for the fascists Business Plot techfash bros to rule whatever remains. 🤓🙄
Your treats and nukelicking won't save you.
Russia invaded Ukraine. So many people have died as a result, both Ukrainians and Russians. There is no way to spin this as anything other than a horrific and evil move by Putin to attempt expansionism, and the weakness of the Russian people not to stop him.
And it could stop. Today. All it takes is for Russia to withdraw. To stop trying to kill Ukrainians.
Ukraine cannot stop defending itself or it will be genocided.
Russia is hurting badly over its own stupid actions. It needs to reverse course and suck up the embarrassment.
Russia is defending Russian lives from being genocided by literal Nazis. Full stop.
Russian soldiers are the literal Nazis. Full stop.
Fuck off with your disgusting propaganda.
It's the truth. Mr. Down and I are having a more realistic conversation than this reactionary shit. And in the end, probably won't agree. But we're having the conversation.
They put Bandera on a stamp, and even have streets and monuments for him.
Yep. Those monuments also exist in other Western states. States that claim not to be fascist or expansionist, then clearly go on expansion adventures, personally or by proxy.
This whole thread is very bizarre, from moving of goalposts, to denying verifiable history, to outright rewriting history, and outright slander and liable, when there's plenty of verifiable history to use as criticism. Very clearly, we're living in Idiocracy, with more malice aforethought.
Pick me up, I’m scared. goes in to depth about American interventionism in Ukraine, if you don’t mind podcasts.
I wish we had a remindme bot. I've waited valuable hours on these clowns (but hopefully anyone who honestly seeks truth will stumble across this and find it useful), so I'll have to come back later, if I can remember.
Edit: is it to be found besides apple? I like Madeline Pendleton, and find her truthful and informative. I've just a huge backlog of things to read/hear/watch.
You can listen to it on the web
Timely episode on top, relevant to this thread. I'll see if I can listen while pet bathing, then me bathing! Thanks.
PS sorry if you're getting blown up with reports because of this. Not saying you are or aren't.
That's literally not the truth though. Russia is actively trying to genocide Ukrainians though. Let me know when Ukraine invades russian land, and steals kids and destroys schools and hospitals.
It literally is the truth and whitewashing/hiding Azov changed nothing. Even Western media was reporting about it until Ukraine was co-opped as another proxy state for another proxy war. But instead of going looking, you double, triple, quadruple down on lying propaganda. It makes me wonder what's in it for you.
Its literally not the truth, this pre-emptive shit youre peddling is the same tactics Israel is using to excuse their genocide in Palestine
Why did it wait for 2021 to fight the neo nazis? Why Putin talks about ukranian identity not existing claiming they are simply Russian? Why Putin keep talking about shared identity with Israel the worst type of nazis today?
Post edited. You still know where to find the information.
You know where to find that information and you know no one is claiming Putin has pure intentions.
Edit: here, if anyone can be bothered not to kneejerk reject:
https://spetsnaz007.substack.com/p/the-donbass-war-explained
You can find information's about everything and it's opposite. Nothing in the article show that Ukraine was going to attack Russia , there was no eminent threat. As long as the nazis in Ukraine threat stay in Ukraine then it is an Ukrainian problem not a Russian one
You know better. Those are Russians who consider themselves Russian, who wanted to sacrifice neither their land nor lives. It's neither good nor honest to accept CIA lying propaganda only when it's convenient and dismiss the truth when it's not. It's a bitter pill to swallow, especially when our personal feelings are involved. Until we acknowledge that and grapple with it, we are serving masters who use those feelings and deliberate refusal to accept the truth as the pipe that plays the sweet music, leading us to our own demise, as they amass more wealth and more control. Look around you, my friend.
It is a bitter pill to swallow for most pro Ukraine and most pro Russia in this war that both Russia and the west are imperialist powers . It is not a CIA lie that Putin believes Ukrainians don't exist . Russia, the west and Zelensky share equal responsibility for this mess. The only victim is the Ukrainian population and Ukraine still have the right to defend itself against an invasion just like Palestinians has that right too
Zelensky is a filthy fascist and Russia, for all it's faults, are the only ones standing between a complete fascist takeover in Europe. For now.
Zelenskyy is not a fascist.
Adults are having a serious conversation. If you take time to listen, you may accidentally learn something, despite your best efforts to the contrary.
Really? Adults are talking? Why are you participating then? Lol. Whatever keep spouting russian propaganda then. I wish you a good life
I said that Zelensky share responsibility in the war just like Russia and the west and no Putin do not stand against fascists, he himself is a fascist
I hear you. If Putin is a literal fascist or mere tool of the fascists (which can be argued makes him a fascist), he's certainly not invading his other neighbors, nor tried. He waited until the last possible minute to enter Ukraine. That certainly smells like oligarchic pragmatism that may have expanded to fascism, and yet, Russia didn't enter the Ukraineian war* theatre, nor anywhere else, for that matter, until the United States and Israel started stirring the pot.
My speculation is, he wanted to amass his wealth and retire in relative obscurity and peace. But he's not known for flapping his gums to make wishes about his personal life known, either. So that speculation is folly as well.
I believe that Russia is a threat to former urss countries but not for countries like France and Germany etc. The nato members do not care about Ukrainians or the occupation of any other territory unless it serve their imperialist ambitions .
Why do you believe that?
Because during Tucker interview Putin talked about how ukraniain identity do not exists and that they are simply russians. I don't see why the logic do not apply to other former ussr territories
Here is the full transcript for reference. I need to rest and prepare for my work, if I'm not back this weekend, please nudge me.
https://www.rev.com/transcripts/tucker-carlson-interviews-vladimir-putin-transcript
Nowhere in that interview did Putin say anything of the sort. Nor was he building up armed forces anywhere. He very patiently and pragmatically recounted history all the way back to the first century bce, and without revision. Nor did he revise any part of history until the day of the interview. Reread it yourself and copy and paste where he denied Ukraine identity.
Nowhere in that interview did Putin say anything of the sort.
He willingfully omitted part of history where Ukrainian ancestors had a distinct culture and history before becoming part of an Russian empire . Putin logic is it was part of Russia therefore it should always be part of Russia. He do not want a distinct independent Ukrainian identity . It is very similar rhetoric to Zionist logic of jews existed before Muslims and Arabs in the land therefore that land always belong to Jews . The only difference is Putin want russification of Ukrainians while Israel want to wipe out the Palestinians from the land.
Both Ukrainians and Russians originated from different branches of the Slavic tribes, but Ukrainians did not 'break away' from Russians. They are two distinct lineages that developed their own identities on different lands at the same time
or was he building up armed forces anywhere
I never claimed this
He didn't leave it out at all. He said it. Plainly.
No you didn't say it, you just claimed Russia wanted to invade their neighbors. They very clearly don't, or would have already done it
What's the point of mentionning that Ukraine used to be part of Russia then?
You're moving goalposts, friend.
The point is explained in the interview, very clearly. Perhaps you can reread it as a refresher. The separatist movement, which you already agreed was stirred by outside interests, is the point of mentioning it. So I ask you, what is the point of your circumlocution?
Lol what? Asking what the point Putin tried to made by mentionned the history is moving the goalpost?
you already agreed was stirred by outside interests
I also said that Putin war was unjustifiable . He hold full responsability in deciding to accept the west provocation. I believe Putin is smart so falling for the west provocation seems not realistic and it is more about using nato as an excuse to try to take control of ukraine and russify the people
Your original claim:
Why did it wait for 2021 to fight the neo nazis? Why Putin talks about ukranian identity not existing claiming they are simply Russian? Why Putin keep talking about shared identity with Israel the worst type of nazis today?
Which the interview clearly addressed.
Then you claimed:
Because during Tucker interview Putin talked about how ukraniain identity do not exists and that they are simply russians. I don't see why the logic do not apply to other former ussr territories
Refuted
Nowhere in that interview did Putin say anything of the sort. Nor was he building up armed forces anywhere. He very patiently and pragmatically recounted history all the way back to the first century bce, and without revision. Nor did he revise any part of history until the day of the interview. Reread it yourself and copy and paste where he denied Ukraine identity.
Then you claimed
He willingfully omitted part of history where Ukrainian ancestors had a distinct culture and history before becoming part of an Russian empire . Putin logic is it was part of Russia therefore it should always be part of Russia. He do not want a distinct independent Ukrainian identity . It is very similar rhetoric to Zionist logic of jews existed before Muslims and Arabs in the land therefore that land always belong to Jews . The only difference is Putin want russification of Ukrainians while Israel want to wipe out the Palestinians from the land.
Both Ukrainians and Russians originated from different branches of the Slavic tribes, but Ukrainians did not 'break away' from Russians. They are two distinct lineages that developed their own identities on different lands at the same time
Nor was he building up armed forces anywhere
I never claimed this
He didn't leave it out at all. He said it. Plainly.
No you didn't say it, you just claimed Russia wanted to invade their neighbors. They very clearly don't, or would have already done it.
You then said
What's the point of mentionning that Ukraine used to be part of Russia then?
To which I answered:
You're moving goalposts, friend.
The point is explained in the interview, very clearly. Perhaps you can reread it as a refresher. The separatist movement, which you already agreed was stirred by outside interests, is the point of mentioning it. So I ask you, what is the point of your circumlocution?
Yes. Moving goalposts. I posted the full transcript, for anyone to read, including yourself. Perhaps your memory is faulty and you don't care to admit it. Perhaps you have an emotional attachment to a fallacious argument. Perhaps you have an ulterior agenda. Who knows, because you refuse to address it and argue in circles. I've engaged in more than good faith and you've done nothing of the sort, despite several attempts to understand your wild, unfounded claims. If there were any valid reasoning, you'd state them. I've wasted enough time on your nonsense.
The transcript confirm what I say. The history lesson that he mentionned that omit he fact that ukraine as a distinct group existed before being in any former russian kingdom is to claim that ukranians are just russians so they should be part of each other. Of course he would not say directly I want Ukraine and I will take it by force because politicians use vague language
Please copy and paste.
All the part about russian history is why I think what I think . If you have another prepesctive about why Putin mention Russian history in the topic of Ukraine please tell me
I'm asking you to refute or add missing context, for several hours now and you refuse. Please do so, because all I can fathom is dishonesty+Bandarism/emotions/some other ulterior motive, and I've gone out of my way for hours to try to understand your perspective, which you refuse to clarify in any form or fashion, rather just keep repeating yourself and circumlocute, which hardly inspires confidence in your motives.
Because honest history doesn't happen in a vacuum.
I have no problem admitting Columbus was a filthy imperialist and my state was built on the genocide of aboriginal people, chattel slavery, Jim Crow. Please reciprocate, concede, or simply drop the matter. I'm busy.
The only dishonnest person here is you . I answered all your arguments while you refuse to answer questions that may change my mind
Omitting the fact that an ukranian identity before joining a russian kingdom and talking about Russisn history which is irelevant to me is refuting the idea that Putin invasion was mere self defense or to fight nazis and any other bullshit. The worst nazi right now is Israel when is Putin going to save palestinians instead of tsking pride that the ussr was one of the first country to recognize the terrorist state of Israel
The only dishonnest person here is you . I answered all your arguments while you refuse to answer questions that may change my mind.
Holy shit, I've answered all of them.
Omitting the fact that an ukranian identity before joining a russian kingdom and talking about Russisn history which is irelevant to me is refuting the idea that Putin invasion was mere self defense or to fight nazis and any other bullshit
Are you a Bandarite, yes or no?
The worst nazi right now is Israel when is Putin going to save palestinians instead of tsking pride that the ussr was one of the first country to recognize the terrorist state of Israel.
Israel isn't on Russia doorstep. Nazi Ukraine is.
Holy shit, I’ve answered all of them.
You didn't answer shit. Those are the question again
Why did it wait for 2021 to fight the neo Nazis? Why Putin talks about Ukrainian identity not existing claiming they are simply Russian? Why Putin keep talking about shared identity with Israel the worst type of Nazis today?
Putin is a long friend of Israel
Sharon said Putin is a true Israel's friend. In 2011 Putin said "Israel is, in fact, a special state to us. It is practically a Russian-speaking country. Israel is one of the few foreign countries that can be called Russian-speaking. It's apparent that more than half of the population speaks Russian"
During Operation Protective Edge in 2014, Putin stated that "I support Israel's battle that is intended to keep its citizens protected"
In August 2014, Russia began increasing fruit imports from Israel, after banning food imports from the EU, Norway, United States, Canada and Australia.
In a meeting with Netanyahu in June 2016, Putin described Israel and Russia as "unconditional allies" in "efforts to counter international terrorism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel%E2%80%93Russia_relations
Are you a Bandarite, yes or no?
No
Israel isn’t on Russia doorstep. Nazi Ukraine is.
Nazi Ukraine never attacked Russia. Like I said if nazis within Ukraine is not attacking foreign countries it is an Ukraine problem not a Russian one .
Nazi Ukraine never attacked Russia.
Neither did Israel, except in the 70s. They suffered badly, for it.
Like I said if nazis within Ukraine is not attacking foreign countries it is an Ukraine problem not a Russian one.
It was attacking Russians who never agreed to be Ukraine. We see it differently.
Why did it wait for 2021 to fight the neo Nazis?
Because it was seeking diplomatic solutions. Who first broke Minsk agreement? Russia was damned either way. They waited until they couldn't.
Why Putin keep talking about shared identity with Israel...
1.5 million Russians in Israel, probably.
During Operation Protective Edge in 2014, Putin stated that "I support Israel's battle that is intended to keep its citizens protected"
Putin is a long friend of Israel
Sharon said Putin is a true Israel's friend. In 2011 Putin said "Israel is, in fact, a special state to us. It is practically a Russian-speaking country. Israel is one of the few foreign countries that can be called Russian-speaking. It's apparent that more than half of the population speaks Russian"
During Operation Protective Edge in 2014, Putin stated that "I support Israel's battle that is intended to keep its citizens protected"
We're definitely in agreement, here. He should have hardened his heart against the 1.5 million Russians in Israel, which is, imo, probably why.
In August 2014, Russia began increasing fruit imports from Israel, after banning food imports from the EU, Norway, United States, Canada and Australia.
Any of those were a bargain with the devil. I speculate again it was for the Russian Israelis' sake. Why do you think so?
Thanks for answering. I really appreciate it.
Neither did Israel, except in the 70s. They suffered badly, for it.
Russia signed the geneva and genocide convention it is an obligation to act against israel at least economically . As opposed to deal with the nazis in ukraine who did not attack another country
1.5 million Russians in Israel, probably. Any of those were a bargain with the devil. I speculate again it was for the Russian Israelis’ sake. Why do you think so?
They decided to live in a country still doing settler colonialism . It is not something to be proud of and shouldn't care about their safety
Because it was seeking diplomatic solutions. Who first broke Minsk agreement? Russia was damned either way. They waited until they couldn’t.
The mink agreement has no clause saying if Ukraine breach it, Russia has the right to invade. Russia could do economical pressure instead.
Why Putin talks about Ukrainian identity not existing claiming they are simply Russian?
This is the most important question
Russia signed the geneva and genocide convention it is an obligation to act against israel at least economically . As opposed to deal with the nazis in ukraine who did not attack another country
Did they? I thought they didn't? Please refresh my memory with a link?
They decided to live in a country still doing settler colonialism . It is not something to be proud of and shouldn't care about their safety.
I'm not sure they were aware of how badly this would turn out, although I'm not going to dispute this. Russian or Israeli, choose. The Russians in Ukraine weren't given the choice. It was their land.
The mink agreement has no clause saying if Ukraine breach it, Russia has the right to invade. Russia could do economical pressure instead.
Once one party to a contract is in breach, the other party is not legally bound. What good are Russian sanctions when the West simply does what it wants? Including sanction Russia?
These two things may look similar, but they are not the same.
I either missed that or forgot it. I'm have to do some homework. Fwiw, if two Ukrainian I've personally known and hung out with in the past, one insisted they are Russian, the other insisted they're Ukrainian. Neither were particularly pro or anti Russian. Putin didn't come up much, other than an incidental.
So why do you believe his excuses he used to justify the invasion of Ukraine? Starting a war require concrete eminent threat no future threats . Russia is using the same bullshit excuses as the terrorist state of Israel
The Nazis were trying to kill the Russians and take their land. The Russians asked Russia for help. What was Putin to do, leave then for slaughter?
And Russians were trying to kill Ukrainians. To the point of shooting down a civilian air liner. So the solution is a full scale invasion, millions dead, economies in ruins, kidnapping children, destruction of the environment?
Bro you need less boot in your diet, try some quinoa.
Said without a hint of irony. Interestingly, the two of us interested in having an honest conversation are responding with verifiable facts, rather than resulting to insults. That pretty much speaks for itself.
Holy fucking shit. I hope that you are (like many others) just a bot because the thought of real people being that stupid is depressing
Might be helpful if people knew about Stepan Bandera, the OUN, and their legacy today.