And the other is an image of some tanks
1mon 21d ago by lemmy.ml/u/Smackyroon in memes@lemmy.ml from lemmy.ml
We literally have the video of tankman climbing up the tank and not being flattened, it was even reported back in the day, but people downvoting you can't be bothered to google that
I think the downvotes are because the post implies that the Chinese did not kill anyone, when hundreds were murdered. What became of tank man is unknown, but it's clear he wasn't killed by one of those tanks.
I heard it was millions, and that evil communist xi xingping plans of doing it again and name it the scary communist leap forward after his favorite scary communist dictator mowz dong
It was thousands. Perhaps 10s of thousands. You don't care, why comment?
Are you being sarcastic?
Because, and anyone correct me if I'm wrong,
most people here know that what happened during the Tianenmen square insurrection was:
- Soldiers, mostly the army choir, are ordered to come unarmed and clear the square after months of students protesting in favor of Usonian state-backed exploitative economic teachings.
- 100+ Soldiers killed, mostly the army choir, by insurrectionists at a road adjacent to the square.
- Remaining army choir soldiers lead the protesters away through song from the square.
- 20+ Insurrectionists killed, as armed soldiers arrived and a battle broke out, on the same road.
- 100+ protesters killed, as a chaotic indirect consequence of the earlier insurrectionists' actions, at a train station miles away.
- Tanks arrive at the square to prevent further escalation.
- Tanks leave the square as situation deescalated and tank man blocks the tanks for a while, then leaves, on the same road again.
These insurrectionists went a lot further than the Usonian Jan 6th protest mostly known as the "Freedom Plaza massacre" where "peaceful protesters" entered the capitol building in order to "stop election fraud" where "perhaps 10s of thousands civilian lives were killed as US security opened fire at these peaceful protesters", because unlike CIA-backed insurrectionists, these "peaceful protesters" were ordered by their higher ups to leave immediately instead of being encouraged to block the US army from arriving at Capitol Hill or attack the US army for that matter.
Do you have a source for your estimate of deaths? 100+ is very ambiguous since it includes any number >100, which seems already beyond contention.
Probably the official CPC figure of 241 killed in total. Most of the serious estimates broadly agree - NSA said 180-500, and the Tiananmen Mothers organisation have identified 198 of the dead.
Since we're evidently reading the same Wikipedia article, I'll point out that those are among the lowest estimates on the page and the Beijing hospital record was 478 dead and 920 wounded.
But these are all very different numbers from what was commented.
Well if you're already reading a wiki article I'm not sure how you'd have trouble matching the source. As I said elsewhere they got the distribution wrong, but you're making it sound like you're just here to JAQ off.
IDK why you're trying to source someone else's comment for them, but if you read the comment and the wiki you would see that they are not in agreement.
This is why I asked for their source. Sorry if you find that offensive for some reason lol
Correct, as I said elsewhere they got the distribution wrong because they are working off memory, but it's not difficult to link the numbers - they mistook the police and army as having the same number of deaths as civilian protestors rather than student protestors, but the total roughly matches and there's only one source that makes that specific distinction between groups rather than a general guess at a total. I don't understand why you're so upset about being told the source after asking for the source.
So just to clarify, you think that:
1.) you can provide the correct source for another person's statement
2.) what you posted qualifies as a source even though you did not give one
3.) it's OK if the statement does not agree with the source
4.) you can justify your misattribution by cherry-picking a number that "roughly" agrees if you massage it
Bruh.
-
Yes? I'm confused, is there no subject you're familiar enough with to recognise sources?
-
Yes it does, it doesn't qualify as a reference, but luckily you're looking at the Wikipedia page so you can just click it instead.
-
Yes, people make mistakes, but luckily sometimes other people like me are around to correct them.
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No, I can justify my attributionby the fact that there's only one (1) source that lists the dead by faction, the numbers just show how they misremembered the specifics of the source.
This isn't some complex chain of advanced logic, I really don't understand what you're having trouble with.
Well, it's true that this is very simple. I wanted the poster's source -- if there is one. Unless you're claiming to be them, you don't have that information.
But since you seem very interested, do you personally think the CCP death estimate you keep presenting is accurate?
You say the commenter above was wrong, but your tone suggests you still agree with them. Do you believe the rest of their narrative that student protestors were peacefully dispersed in song by the unarmed army choir?
Do you recognize that CPC has a conflict of interest in providing accurate information about this, and that they continue to censor information about it to this day?
OH what a surprise, it DOES turn out you were just here to JAQ off all along. You're as easy to see through as folahts' source is to find.
Lol I finally ask something you're qualified to answer and suddenly you have no opinion.
You could have just asked those questions 3 days ago when you got the source, why are you upset about being treated with the same respect you give?
Do they look like equivalent questions to you?
A source might give evidence for something that happened in the real world, while these last questions were about what goes on in that silly head of yours.
I think the numbers are a bit off - official Chinese figures were ~20 student protestors, ~20 police and army, and about 200 other protestors were killed.
I didn't know i was on a joke sub, I guess.
Don't you mean hundreds of thousands, you redfash tankie?
And Iran, they killed 40 thousand!
You don’t understand the scope. It was hundreds of thousands. It was hundreds of millions. Evil Chinese communism knows no bounds and will consume all. I will take all your social credit points now for myself, silly American
Bro literally had a conversation with the soldier in the tank.
There is video of him being removed/taken away by others. He certainly was not crushed.
offering two contradictory statements isn't proof of anything
So close to understanding the razor, but yet.

Go back to reddit
Why do so many of you believe the CCP is better than ICE
Because even Western reporters who were there debunk the myth of what happened.
As far as genocide, Sayragul Sauytbay (basically the sole source of "proof"), has also been debunked six ways til Sunday, and even admits that she hasn't even witnessed these events firsthand. Gee, funny that the US/West lied about Vietnam, lied about Korea, Lied about Iraq, lied about Iran, lied about Cuba, lied about Venezuela, ... literally genocided millions (with actual proof) using the Jakarta Method, coups, embargoes, sanctions, assassinations, color revolutions, etc. Surely they wouldn't lie about China, riiiiight?
are you all bots?
We're bots because we actually read less biased accounts of what happened instead of regurgitating western propaganda?
I haven’t been able to find one legitimate site confirming it was debunked. All the sites at the top of my search are .cn sites and I’m skeptical of those as they have a reason to be dishonest.
The best and most comprehensive resource I have seen so far is Qiao Collective's Xinjiang: A Resource and Report Compilation. Qiao Collective is a group of Chinese diaspora living in the west, and they compiled an extremely comprehensive write-up of the entire background of the events, the timeline of reports, and real and fake claims. The majority of their sourcing is western, and they cite official Chinese government writing and white papers when relevant.
I also recommend reading the UN report as well as (especially) China's response to it, which eclipses it in size and detail.These are the most relevant accusations and responses without delving into straight up fantasy like Adrian Zenz, Christian nationalist and professional propagandist for the Victims of Communism Foundation, does. Zenz' work has been thoroughly discredited, yet is supported by western media for its utility in fearmongering. An example is lying about 8.7% of new IUDs as 80%, to back up claims of "forced sterilization," from this chart:

I recommend you go through these resources.
Thank you, I’m incredibly skeptical but I will legitimately read these with an open mind.
I suggest you read with a fine-toothed comb, then.
Tank Man was disappeared after this
It must be so easy being an anti communist, you can just make up whatever unsourced claims you like and expect people to believe it
Some other guy
Oh well, if "some guy" said it...
I wouldn't expect a Polish nationalist to have a good grasp on anything but "unarmed student protest" is an entirely misleading categorisation of a violent riot that brutally murdered multiple soldiers who were simply standing guard before the clashes broke out and who's leaders did interviews specifically detailing their plans to incite massive violence and flee to America.
Look at the Wujek mine riot, miners were attacking militia with sharpened rebars and loudly threatening to lynch the captured militamen, but when single inexperienced detachment of militia which shouldn't even been there opened fire (and despite entire chain of command from direct commander to minister Kiszczak and gen Jaruzelski absolutely forbidding this) it's suddenly example of horrible martyrology and one of founding myths of comprador III RP.
Of course hundreds of workers being murdered in the prewar Poland and dozens (maybe hundreds) of thousands of social murders after 1989 are not mentioned ever.
So if China is so nice, what is the identity of the "Tank Man"? Why can't we find him? It is like he "disappeared".

Well, it is undisputed that the CPC censors all mentions of the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests and massacre. Both public and private - the US may lie, but private free speech is still allowed. So can we please stop pretending that China is not evil?
Both public and private
The local CPC deputies have broken into my house multiple times for mentioning it when talking politics with friends (sarcasm). You people are so unserious
From https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2025/05/what-is-the-tiananmen-crackdown/
Alliance vice-chairperson Chow Hang-tung and 25 activists were prosecuted in 2020 simply because they insisted on lighting candles in Victoria Park despite the government prohibiting the vigil that year, ostensibly on Covid-19 grounds. In 2021, after the police banned the vigil once again, Chow was arrested on 4 June after encouraging people on social media to commemorate the crackdown by lighting candles.
Ultimately, Chow was jailed for 22 months for taking part and inciting others to take part in an unauthorised assembly. She and fellow Hong Kong Alliance leaders Lee Cheuk Yan and Albert Ho have also been charged with “inciting subversion” under the National Security Law and all three face a maximum sentence of life imprisonment.
Firstly that's public.
Secondly
for taking part and inciting others to take part in an unauthorised assembly
Thirdly amnesty famous for publishing the nayirah testimony without any factchecking or corroboration
Fourthly you Brits are really butthurt about losing your colony and your bootlickers being a shunned minority.
Firstly that’s public.
It is a private person saying a thing. As opposed to the state saying a thing.
And the text also says:
all three face a maximum sentence of life imprisonment.
You write:
you Brits
WTF? I am not British.
all three face a maximum sentence of life imprisonment
For seperate charges related to being an owned arm of the western regime change machine.
WTF? I am not British.
My bad I saw the feddit and weird obsession with HK separatists being allowed push for a return to British colonisation and just assumed.
It is a private person saying a thing
Making public statements, pushing for a public gathering in a public place. Maybe your and my idea of what private means is different. Is it private if a pervert flashes people in public just because they're a "private person"?
Maybe your and my idea of what private means is different.
In this case, I mean that they are not the state. The state itself censors all mentions in their own communications. And the state also censors mentions by people who are not the state, i.e. private persons.
Ok I understand better now and you're still wrong it's taught as part of the mandatory outline of China's modern history at university.
I stand corrected, you can learn about it through official channels. I did not attend Chinese university. However, its mention is filtered by the firewall.
I'm underpaid cia hacker from defunded school and can't hack firewall. Pls remove firewall so I can hack you
That's also not how the firewall works. It's an IP/domain/protocol blacklist not a keyword censoring tool.
Do you disagree that sources discussing it it are deliberately blocked?
Many likely are but I disagree on it generally being the reason. Most places are blocked due to the Chinese law requirement of having servers in China to operate in China.
I do think it is deliberate. Before Wikipedia was blocked, you specifically could not visit the page on Tiananmen Square.
I'm going to be entirely honest here so please don't take this the wrong way but no one here could give less of a fuck about western propoganda and their ridiculous exaggerations and views of events being censored. If anything the west could benefit from stronger censorship of the many Hitlerite views that gain traction over their like double genocide theory, the great replacement etc.
No worries, honest difference of opinion. I think open discourse is helpful for overcoming bigotry.
Yeah open discourse did wonders for the Rohingya, for vaccinations in SEA etc. you really are completely detached from reality.
I don't understand the point of arguing with people pointing out that there is censorship in China if you are pro-censorship.
Because your massive exaggeration of it is ridiculous unhelpful and based entirely in fantasy. Censorship when applied correctly by the working class against its class enemies is good. Censoring Nazis is good. Reality is complicated (honestly this being a key point you refuse to grapple with being a large part of why everything I've seen you post is a mix of uninformed, detached from reality and utopian nonsense)
The "history" you will be taught in that course won't include the reports of the journalists who were there at the time and whose film was confiscated. The famous tank man picture only survived because the journalist who took that picture hid it in a toilet.
And the "history" of the event you were taught was a fantasy cooked up by McCarthyist acolytes to spread atrocity propaganda. Also as I pointed out to the Canadian lib he's famous because who he is and what he did are completely reframed in the west as some sacrificial martyr jumping Infront of tanks (generally with the implication that he was ran over) whereas in reality he was a random man who wanted the tanks to return to the square and was ushered off by passers by not really a revolutionary figure or particularly relevant to the event as a whole. You people are so insufferably arrogant your vision and imagination must be reality.
Also it's not "will be" it's "was" past tense I have completed my university time and it was a fairly good course going over the failures of the government leading to unrest and how it was exploited by outside agitators. But anything short of pure hatred of all the "enemies" of the west will never be enough for you people.
And the "history" of the event you were taught was a fantasy cooked up by McCarthyist acolytes to spread atrocity propaganda.
The history I was taught is backed by documentation. The history you were taught ignores the documentation and takes the word of a government that tried to destroy any documents that existed of the event.
Such great documentation such as a journalist who was evacuated before the clashes saying he saw 10,000 killed. Genuinely unserious. You have literally no idea what was taught in the course. It was largely even handed about the many errors of the government which led to unrest, how that was seized upon by outside agitators how many were killed as the rioters and police/the military clashed. But obviously nothing short of pure hatred of the wests enemies will ever be enough for you people.
Amnesty always manufactures consent for shit, but assuming this is true, why would any government be okay with people commemorating an attempt to overthrow them? You're so unserious
why would any government be okay with people commemorating an attempt to overthrow them?
Because that is free private speech. That is what free speech means.
You are allowed to commemorate Jan 6 in the US. I think you are an idiot if you do so, but that it still your right to free speech.
People were allowed to do Jan 6 lmao. Fuck, they all even got pardoned. Much better if more of them had gone the way of Babbit, IMO.
"Trying to overthrow the government is free speech" lol you. are. twelve.
Lemmy turning into a big propaganda machine always trying to pit us all against each other rage baiting Europeans vs Americans vs Asians vs etc. if we could all stop and smell the flowers we would be stronger.
lemmy was primarily a marxist space before reddit's API update drove a bunch of you here. there's no grand conspiracy or big plot to divide people on our part; we're just talking about what we always have while liberals from reddit try to fling shit.
I came here not because of the API change..."you here" doesn't apply to me. Sorry you don't like my opinion!
Your opinion is stupid
Westerners aren’t helpless innocents whose minds are injected with atrocity propaganda, science fiction-style; they’re generally smug bourgeois proletarians who intelligently seek out as much racist propaganda as they can get their hands on. This is because it fundamentally makes them feel better about who they are and how they live. The psychic and material costs are rationally worth the benefits. -Roderic Day
All the libs in the comments really living up to the quote.
Lemmitors really didn't sent their best to this thread.
The Amerikkkan randomly calling me racist while being racist was fun if entirely unproductive. Same with the Canadian settler.
Don't feel that you need to argue with these racists, because it can lead to burn-out quickly. You can always report them and we'll try to get to it ASAP.
Also thank you for your hard work in educating everyone. It's not going to waste, and everyone is learning a lot from your posts. o7
Also thank you for your hard work in educating everyone. It’s not going to waste, and everyone is learning a lot from your posts. o7
Thank you always great to hear.
Don’t feel that you need to argue with these racists, because it can lead to burn-out quickly. You can always report them and we’ll try to get to it ASAP.
Yeah definitely I always make sure to report any actual racism etc I see but it is fun to blow off steam arguing with/making fun of them at the same time even if it's entirely unproductive.
Speaking from experience. Still be careful. Even when you think you are blowing off steam, more could be going on then you think. I didnt realize how miserable I had gotten till I had take some time away.
Arguing with randos on the internet can honestly really fuck with a person.
Seconding this, @QinShiHuangsShlong@lemmy.ml's comments have been fantastic lately, and absolutely aren't going to waste.
Thank you very glad to hear
If it helps, it was fun to see you owning them
The operative word being smug
Alexa, what is the definition of "irony"?
This is just smug for "no you"
I just finished reading this article today a few hours ago! it felt like such an eerily perfect dissection of liberals it is incredible impressive, it doesn't reduce their annoyance but it does provide an easier way to deal with it 
Link?
My bad for not linking above, here it is: https://redsails.org/masses-elites-and-rebels
Thanks I'm looking forward to reading later
No problem!
Since we have a lot of racist redditors coming over here catching bans for their historical ignorance about the June 4th incident, here are some resources:
- Notes for the 30th anniversary of the Tiannment incident.
- It wasn't a massacre of peaceful students, but a skirmish between PLA soldiers and armed detachments from the pro-capitalist / free market reform movement. The protest movement, as evidenced by their own accounts, called for market liberalisation, and free market reforms, rallying around a replica of the statue of liberty. After the movement had been building in the square for seven weeks, unarmed soldiers were sent in to disperse the protesters, after which many soldiers were beaten to death, torched, and lynched. The New York Times death count went from 2600, to many thousands, to 8000, to tens of thousands. In reality only around ~200 (including soldiers) were killed or trampled, in smaller clashes outside the square. The on-scene New York Times reporter disavowed the article, especially about machine-gunning of protesters. A wikileaks cable from a US ambassador to the US state department, confirmed that no killings or machine-gunnings took place in the square.
- Latin American diplomat eyewitness account of June 3-4 events on Tiananmen Square wikileaks (PDF)
- There was a Spanish television crew that covered the entire Tiananmen Square incident as it unfolded. Their footage showed that there was no massacre. A few things worthy of pointing out - Liu Xiaobo and Hou Dejian, both student leaders of the Tiananmen protests, have been recorded as saying that they never saw anyone killed at the protests.
- The protest movement followed the line of "color revolutions", in which the US tried to destabilize and create counter-revolutions in eastern Europe and Latin America after the fall of the USSR. The strategy was to stir division within and without, by inundating the media with news of massacres of "peaceful", pro-capitalist / market reformers.
- The defeat of a counter revolution in China.
- Interviews from some of the student leaders.
- An account from a resident.
- Tiananmen Square "Massacre", A Propaganda Hoax.
- The truth about the Tiananmen square protests
The image is misleading, but the CPC itself acknowledged at least 241 deaths. Also, you cannot find information about the incident while in China. Can personally confirm.
Also, you cannot find information about the incident while in China. Can personally confirm.
Yeah no information, it's only taught as part of the mandatory "outline of modern Chinese history" at university.
In that link, they refer to it as:
"The 1989 political turmoil and subsidence."
That is a really weird way to call a massacre, don't you think?
Please we all know that the Government hides the search results in China if you look for it. Or are you going to deny that?
Like, why lie?
China bans Tiananmen Square-related web search terms https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-18321548
https://www.businessinsider.com/words-china-banned-from-search-engines-after-tiananmen-square-2014-6
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/04/tiananmen-square-online-search-censored
Because massacre is poor categorization of what was a violent clash between rioters and the military acting as riot police. Like why pretend to be a leftists when you're a Canadian settler shitlib. Clearly not very good at categorising things. Also when did I deny their were restrictions around what is a very sensitive event that had western backing? All I said was that it is taught about as part of a mandatory course at university. The idea it's fully blacked out is western chauvinist fantasy and honestly not even a very creative one. You are not very intelligent are you?
Go get em, Mr. Shlong!
You know there are photos of the dead people right? And videos?
Canadian Seltler shitllib? Hahaha. Cute, friend. You know nothing about me.
Nice that you went and checked my history as to come up with something to side track my points. I am not sure if you are a CCP shill or just brainwashed in propaganda.
Also, you are moving the goal post, friend. You told the guy you responded to that the Tiananmen Square masacre was not censored. It is. That is my point and provided proof that it is and I can do that without lowering to your level of insults. Clearly, I hit a nerve, it is okay Comrade. Be happy.
There is a reason why put a link in Chinese in an English speaking forum without translaltion.
You know there are photos of the dead people right? And videos?
People die when rioters (whose leaders did interviews explaining their plan to incite massive violence and flee to America) clash with the military did I deny that? It was categorically not a massacre.
You know nothing about me.
From replying to you before I know you're Canadian and a self proclaimed lib thus 90% chance you're white thus a settler. So taking it all together Canadian settler shitlib.
Nice that you went and checked my history as to come up with something to side track my points. I am not sure if you are a CCP shill or just brainwashed in propaganda.
Again didn't check your history we've simply talked before. Also holy chauvinism really reinforcing the whole settler shitlib. And it's CPC not CCP.
Also, you are moving the goal post, friend. You told the guy you responded to that the Tiananmen Square masacre was not censored. It is.
Massive twisting of what was said. He said you couldn't find any information when in fact it is part of the mandatory university course which is all I pointed out.
Again I must ask are you genuinely unintelligent?
You are referring to unarmed protestors against fully armed military, with tanks? LOL, aha. Damn those rioters attacking the military with their own blood, splattered on the square. Those demons!
Not white. You know nothing about me. Keep Shilling, Comrade. Oh, we talked before? Is that so? Oh, fair, but I do not remember you, nor care to know you. It is true that I am a Liberal and I will give you the decency of not being as petty as you, since I do not have to rely on insults when I have facts and sources.
Again, all you have proven is that I hit a nerve. Can't even take the slightest of critism.
So, here is the difference of the searches that people did even back in the day, noticed the difference between the searches in Chinese VS the ones outside of China. Thus proving OPs and my point.
For anyone to look, like this is nothing new. This is how China would change results on actual internet searches. https://imgur.com/a/vbkFA
The university course on your link is reframed, obviously. That is the whole point on censorship. I can tell by the other curses and the content that a lot of things are reframed as well. Again, there is reason why you posted a Chinese link in an English focused site. We all know how idealogues think.
Anyway, stop lying. That point remains.
Lastly, on this segment of this documentary, Tank Man, these Asian students claim to not even recognize the famous "Tank Man" when asked.
So, either they do not know, which I fully doubt, if you hear what she says, or they do know, which is the case,but do not want to publicly discuss it on camera and risk getting any type of trouble. Take your pick.
From 2008: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuuddurPLV8&t=86
Rely in common sense comrade. Have a great one, Cheers.
You are referring to unarmed protestors against fully armed military, with tanks? LOL, aha. Damn those rioters attacking the military with their own blood, splattered on the square. Those demons!
They literally immolated and lynched military guards to start the riot. You are extremely fucking arrogant for how little you understand anything.
when I have facts and sources
Lmao. What you actually have is a chauvinist fantasy and an immense arrogance.
Can’t even take the slightest of critism.
you have provided no criticism just a vast misrepresentation of what I said and the events in question.
So, here is the difference of the searches that people did even back in the day, noticed the difference between the searches in Chinese VS the ones outside of China. Thus proving OPs and my point.
Again not what we were talking about he said there was no information implying and perpetuating the nonsense lie that the date/event is scrubbed from history which is factually incorrect in the same way saying Winnie the pooh is banned is factually incorrect.
The university course on your link is reframed, obviously. That is the whole point on censorship. I can tell by the other curses and the content that a lot of things are reframed as well. Again, there is reason why you posted a Chinese link in an English focused site. We all know how idealogues think.
Chauvinism.
Lastly, on this segment of this documentary, Tank Man, these Asian students claim to not even recognize the famous “Tank Man” when asked.
He's famous because who he is and what he did are completely reframed in the west as some sacrificial martyr jumping Infront of tanks (generally with the implication that he was ran over) whereas in reality he was a random man who wanted the tanks to return to the square and was ushered off by passers by not really a revolutionary figure or particularly relevant to the event as a whole. You people are so insufferably arrogant your vision and imagination must be reality.
Rely in common sense comrade.
"Just believe the western propoganda". I'm no comrade of yours you Hitlerite settler.
Lastly, on this segment of this documentary, Tank Man, these Asian students claim to not even recognize the famous “Tank Man” when asked.
I genuinely can't believe a person can be this dumb. Did you ever consider the fact that Tank Man is completely irrelevant for history and it's only a fucking image for propaganda? Why anyone knows about the image? Because is the image about the square that appears when people talk about the event. This guy is completely irrelevant.
You're a racist Han bigot. Don't bother relying. I don't communicate with stupid racists.
I'm not Han lmao. The irony of you making a racist assumption calling me racist. 🤣
You people are so insufferably arrogant you have no understanding of anything about the mainland our history or politics and just constantly shout scream piss your pants and throw tantrums. Also the racism continues typical. Please go back to the japnophile warcriminal worshipping side of Reddit it's where you belong.
smugness is the strongest feature of american (and western) willful ignorance and i suspect that any success in this arena depends on building a tolerance to it.
It's such a beautifully specific mix of arrogance and ignorance. Rare to find anywhere else.
it's the result of generations long grooming fostered by our ruling class and the only way to break it (i'm guessing) is to keep providing sources that contradict it repeatedly so that the person will change their own mind once their own life is negatively impacted by the propaganda like mine was.
True for now that is the best method until reeducation facilities can be built worldwide for the most entrenched cases.
american culture won't lend itself to that and never will.
the grooming i referenced earlier was enabled by encouraging people to reach their own conclusions sourced from ignorance and misinformation; so it feels to each one that they've reasoned it out themselves and any direct/managed effort to the contrary will be received as a "big brother" overreach.
台湾排名第一
西藏排名第二
新疆排名第三
中国排名第四
对真正的种族主义者没必要客气。
Go back behind the great firewall. It's where you belong.
台湾排名第一
西藏排名第二
新疆排名第三
中国排名第四
Yes yes I know you're a japanophile green warrior I hope when they return to experiment on you you won't resist too hard.
中共最大的错误就是没直接把你祖宗图死
Dude I hate all countries especially my own. I'm immune to your racist CCP bullshit. I know your history and mine. Guess what? Yours is way worse.
The difference is that I actually love the Chinese people, especially the ones that I have worked for. You know who taught me how fucking bad it is and was in China? Your own people.
Fuck you, you racist bigot. You actually hate your own people, because you hate my people, which is my entire human family, and support our enemies, namely all governments.
Genuinely the most idiotic removed from history and reality take I've ever seen. You love the Chinese people so much you want us to suffer like the Soviets. To collapse be balkanised and have millions pushed to death prostitution and trafficking. You are evil I hope you understand that.
You just put a whole bunch of words in my mouth that I never said. You are a lying racist bigot. I am actually pretty neutral, you're taking the dark side.
Oh you're even more idiotic then I thought advocating for the destruction of China and the Chinese people without even realising it.
Or you're a liar neither looks good for you.
I desire freedom for my Chinese brothers and sisters, just as they did in 1989 when I watched them get murdered on the news. Not what the US claims as Freedom™. More like what the Six Nations described. Real freedom. Just like I want the US government to burn to the ground since it is incapable of reform, I want the CCP to either actually reform and place the citizens over power and wealth, or burn that shit to the ground as well.
That's what I want. Not the lies and fever dreams that you are preaching.
You are an indoctrinated lying racist bigot.
I desire freedom for my Chinese brothers and sisters, just as they did in 1989 when I watched them get murdered on the news. Not what the US claims as Freedom™. More like what the Six Nations described. Real freedom. Just like I want the US government to burn to the ground since it is incapable of reform, I want the CCP to either actually reform and place the citizens over power and wealth, or burn that shit to the ground as well.
nothing is going to change if you can't see past the propaganda you're parroting here.
Nothing is changing anyway. I'm not parroting propaganda, I've had 45 years to come to my OWN conclusions.
The only thing that will fix this world is if all the governments are completely reformed to work for the people, and combined into one world government so we can work together, or abolish all governments beyond the local level.
The PRC is already such a state, and has been so since 1949. The establishment of socialism is via revolutionary means. The path forward is for the creation of more socialist states, not overthrowing existing ones.
The PRC only exists in Taiwan. The CCP is exporting their version of authoritarianism, just like the US and Russian Federation are doing with their versions.
Since all three exist that is proof that all governments will go authoritarian once they have enough power. Hence, reform all governments into a single unified world government that is focused on people not power, or abolish all high level government.
Marx would agree with me here.
The PRC only exists in Taiwan.
No, the capitalist dictatorship in Taiwan that murdered all of the communists and local resistance when the KMT moved in in the White Terror isn't anywhere close to a People's Republic.
The CCP is exporting their version of authoritarianism, just like the US and Russian Federation are doing with their versions.
Utter nonsense. The CPC is the party in power in a socialist state, where the working classes use their authority against capitalists. The US Empire and the Russian Federation are both dictatorships of capital, like Taiwan, where authority is wielded against the working classes.
Since all three exist that is proof that all governments will go authoritarian once they have enough power. Hence, reform all governments into a single unified world government that is focused on people not power, or abolish all high level government.
Nonsense. All states wield authority, this is partially correct, but they do so in service of a definite class. In the PRC, those classes are the working classes.
Marx would agree with me here.
No he would not, Marx viewed authority by its class character, not in a liberal view that divorces the state from class struggle. Don't invoke Marx while erasing class struggle.
You have a very strange definition of socialism. The CCP is doing their own thing that looks a hell of a lot like properly regulated capitalism. They also have created a digital scanscape and have all the big brother surveillance shit. They have teams of hackers that the state employs to constantly try to attack everyone else. They are exporting their version of authoritarianism with their tools. If the CCP were for the working class, they wouldn't have the literal thieves that are billionaires.
I expect better of you Cowbee.
You have a very strange definition of socialism.
Not at all. Socialism is a transitional status between capitalism and communism, where the proletariat has siezed state power and public ownership is the principal aspect of the economy. This is absolutely true of the PRC.
The CCP is doing their own thing that looks a hell of a lot like properly regulated capitalism.
No? Private ownership is secondary to public, and is relegated to small/medium firms, as well as highly competitive, non-critical industries like tech. The system of the PRC is typically described as a Socialist Market Economy. The commanding heights of the economy are overwhelmingly publicly owned, while private ownership typically is found in secondary industries and highly competitive non-critical industries like tech. The CPC often has controlling shares of private companies as well, especially the larger ones. As these private firms grow, they are socialized and often folded into the public sector. This is why public ownership is the principal aspect of the economy, and determines the nature of the PRC's path on the socialist road.
See also the stages of socialism presented by Chinese economists, like Cheng Enfu:

The character of the state is a dictatorship of the proletariat. Whole-Process People's Democracy is the form of consultative democracy in China. Local candidates are directly elected, and then these ladder upwards in indirect elections. The top conducts many surveys and tries to find policy from the people via the Mass Line, while practicing democratic centralism and maintaining the ability to quickly respond to changing conditions. Long-term policy change is slow but positive as consensus is built, short-term crisis is quickly adapted to as needed.
Also, it's the Communist Party of China, not Chinese Communist Party. The format "CP_" is the internationalist form, like CPRF. "CCP" draws on western orientalist views.
They also have created a digital scanscape and have all the big brother surveillance shit.
Every existing socialist state is still a part of ongoing class struggle, and needs to develop tools to keep capitalists suppressed and prevent them from developing political power.
They have teams of hackers that the state employs to constantly try to attack everyone else.
Genuinely confused by this one, the CPC isn't attacking everyone. They do have intelligence gathering, like all states do.
They are exporting their version of authoritarianism with their tools.
The CPC isn't exporting socialism (or "authoritarianism," which is a meaningless term). This is one part that Marxists sometimes do criticize China for. The CPC focuses on the development of China, and favorable relations with communist parties and existing socialist states. They do not export revolution like the USSR did.
I expect better of you Cowbee.
I don't know what you mean by this either. I have the standard Marxist-Leninist take on the PRC, because I read a good deal of Marxist-Leninist theory and organize with Marxist-Leninists.
Then the standard ML take is actively pro authoritarian and actively acting as class traitors.
The fact that you don't know about the teams of hackers that actively attack every other developed countries during Chinese timezones, is telling.
I guess I have to stop thinking of you as a friend of the masses.
Then the standard ML take is actively pro authoritarian and actively acting as class traitors.
The standard ML take is the standard Marxist take, that the working classes should wield the power of the state to collectivize production and distribution and prevent capitalists from taking political power. I don't know what you mean by "acting as class traitors," the working classes govern China and that's a good thing.
The fact that you don’t know about the teams of hackers that actively attack every other developed countries during Chinese timezones, is telling.
Not really. You gave no evidence of this, and I already stated that the PRC does do intelligence gathering on imperialist countries, as all geopolitical adversaries do. The CPC would be foolish not to.
I guess I have to stop thinking of you as a friend of the masses.
I don't see why the fact that I support socialism and socialist countries contradicts me being a friend to the working classes. You never countered any of my points, meaning it's extremely unclear what actual problem you have with socialist China at a concrete level.
If the working classes ruled the government there would be no billionaires. They are not socialists, they are capitalist reformers at best. I will admit that China at least has the balls to prosecute some of the Great Thieves, but they allow them to become Great Thieves and don't stop the theft of the working class.
If that is the standard ML take, then ML are capitalist simps.
If the working classes ruled the government there would be no billionaires.
Why? Why do you believe billionaires exist anywhere? China has billionaires because it still has private property, and if you go back several comments you'll see why they still have private property. China already tried to dogmatically eliminate all private property, and they ran into problems that came from vast underdevelopment. Poverty isn't socialism, but the Gang of Four made the case that it was.
They are not socialists, they are capitalist reformers at best.
Again, I already addressed that private ownership is relegated to small and medium industries, and secondary, non-critical industries. Such an economy where public ownership dominates is not capitalist in the slightest, and further the class character of the state is critical as well. Capitalists are stripped from political power in China.
I will admit that China at least has the balls to prosecute some of the Great Thieves, but they allow them to become Great Thieves and don’t stop the theft of the working class.
The people of China allow billionaires to exist because they traded an impoverished, "purer" socialism for a dynamic socialist market economy, which came with dramatic development. Such a shift was built upon the existing socialist system, and is not a change in character but of form. As time has gone on, the PRC has developed, and so too has the Xi Jinping era become known as a "New Era," where a qualitative shift in development has allowed a sharper turn in the direction of this "pure socialism," only this time with more developed productive forces.
If that is the standard ML take, then ML are capitalist simps.
I don't see how MLs are "capitalist simps" for supporting socialist countries. Can you explain what socialism and capitalism are?
Billionaires exist anywhere because the whole world sucks capitalist dick. Billionaires only exist because the workers have a boot on their necks, and greedy thieves aren't prosecuted by the state for wage theft.
Capitalism - an economic system that allows for Private (not personal) property and says that money is the only thing that matters. It's more complex than that, but that's the core.
Socialism - a worker owned state that gradually abolishes all private, but not personal, property, and works towards a stateless currency-less society.
Communism - a stateless, currency-less society in which the universal safety floor doesn't allow anyone to be impoverished, and by necessity outlaws extreme wealth as it is unhealthy. Unfortunately can only be implemented world wide at a time.
Billionaires of any type are nothing but thieves. Any country that is actually worker controlled would not allow them to exist in the first place.
Billionaires exist anywhere because the whole world sucks capitalist dick.
No, that's not how it works. I want a concrete reason, not an analogy.
Billionaires only exist because the workers have a boot on their necks, and greedy thieves aren’t prosecuted by the state for wage theft.
Billionaires exist because private ownership exists, and private ownership exists because of definite material conditions and levels of development. The PRC could trade their rapid development for a more "pure" socialism, but this would come with the consequence of isolating itself from the world economy like the USSR was, which the CPC identified as a partial cause of the USSR's dissolution.
Capitalism - an economic system that allows for Private (not personal) property and says that money is the only thing that matters. It’s more complex than that, but that’s the core.
Allows for? If your economy is 99% public, and 1 kid has a lemonade stand, this is capitalist in your eyes? No. The idea of "money being the only thing that matters" is absolutely untrue in China, where the huge publicly-owned industry is used to develop underdeveloped regions, implement strong infrastructure, and more, so I also don't know what you mean by this.
In reality, capitalism is a mode of production where private ownership isn't merely allowed, but is the principal aspect of the economy, and the capitalist class in charge of the state. This identifies where private ownership exists in relation to other forms of ownership, and the class nature of the state, both core to capitalism yet lacking from your definition.
Socialism - a worker owned state that gradually abolishes all private, but not personal, property, and works towards a stateless currency-less society.
This is true of the PRC, so I'm not sure what your problem is here.
Communism - a stateless, currency-less society in which the universal safety floor doesn’t allow anyone to be impoverished. Unfortunately can only be implemented world wide at a time.
I don't really disagree, except that I'd add that production and distribution are run along a common plan.
Billionaires of any type are nothing but thieves. Any country that is actually worker controlled would not allow them to exist in the first place.
Let me be extremely clear: are you supporting the Gang of Four, and their "socialism is collective poverty," against the will of the working classes? Are you incapable of recognizing the deliberate move to a more dynamic socialist market economy, where the state and the commanding heights of industry retained their class character, but private ownership was allowed in to help speed up development and integrate with the world economy?
Who is the Gang of Four? I assume I could look it up, but you do seem to be somewhat consistently verbose.
The one kid having a lemonade stand would fall into personal property. Billionaires are a different thing. Stop creating strawmen. Billionaires are nothing but thieves of the masses.
Wow you were talking so much about how you know so much about China and what's best for Chinese people and you don't even know the gang of four. 🤣
Fuck off, racist bigot.
Project harder white saviour complex 🤣
The only one projecting here is you. Fuck off, illiterate racist bigot.
Cope and project harder. Projecting so hard they might start using you to show movies 🤣
I'm rubber you're glue.
There you go, is that understandable to your infantile mind? Fuck off, illiterate racist bigot.
Are you really 45? Buddy you shouldn't lie about your age does you mom know what you're doing online? Please log off and go play with your friends.
Fuck off racist bigot.
I watched Tiananmen Square happen. Your lies can't stop the truth.
Lmao watched it at 4 years old and formed an opinion on that? Are you sure you're not lying?
So you can't do basic arithmatic either. Fuck off illiterate racist bigot.
My bad your 8 year old self was much more informed 🤣
I'm no longer 8.
Fuck off, illiterate racist bigot.
I’m no longer 8.
Honestly from everything you've said you easily could be. If not physically, mentally at least.
As if I care what an illiterate racist bigot thinks. You are too stupid to learn, go suck on your boot that you love so much fucking class traitor.
Yes I the rural Chinese minority who supports the socialist state that has done the most for the working class in history (bar the USSR who broke the nazi beast) who has a Phd and 2 masters degrees is the illiterate racist class traitor as opposed to you the American child with the white saviour complex who is dogmatically anti-communist and wants to destroy China despite the will of the people. Honestly would be peak if you were a parody account. 🤣
You're a proven liar. You have no degrees. Fuck off unedtucated indoctrinated illiterate racist bigot.
I'm no longer 8
Yeah buddy, you're 12
And you're illiterate, and have proven such.
No u
Fuck off illiterate liar
Who is the Gang of Four? I assume I could look it up, but you do seem to be somewhat consistently verbose.
The Gang of Four governed China between Mao Zedong and Deng Xiaoping. Reform and Opening Up was a strategic move under Deng to resolve the contradiction between wanting to move towards communism with productive forces utterly incapable of achieving it. Here's a comment I wrote before:
long-ass comment
China being socialist has nothing to do with the name of the party in control, and everything to do with the mode of production and distribution in China. Rather than a neoliberal paradise, it’s closer to a nightmare for neoliberals. This editorial from The Guardian explains it quite well, actually:
But Xi’s support for mixing private and public ownership structures was purely pragmatic. It had value, he said in another forum, because it would “improve the socialist market economic structure.” Xi’s assessment is echoed by Michael Collins, one of the CIA’s most senior officials for Asia. “The fundamental end of the Communist party of China under Xi Jinping is all the more to control that society politically and economically,” Collins argued earlier this year. “The economy is being viewed, affected and controlled to achieve a political end.”
...
The party’s overarching aim, though, has remained consistent: to ensure that the private sector, and individual entrepreneurs, do not become rival players in the political system. The party wants economic growth, but not at the expense of tolerating any organised alternative centres of power.
…
“[Capitalists] act as if they are being chased by a bear,” wrote Zhang Lin, a Beijing political commentator, in response to these comments. “They are powerless to control the bear, so they are competing to outrun each other to escape the animal.”
How then, does China’s economy work? Public ownership is the principal aspect of China’s economy. This means that public ownership governs the large firms and key industries, and is what is rising in China, as private ownership is kept to small and medium non-essential industries. No system is static, meaning identifying the nature of a system depends on identifying what is rising and what is dying away. Cpitalists are held on a tight leash, and are prevented from gaining political power as a class. The reason private ownership is allowed at all is because China has very uneven development due to their rapid industrialization, and private ownership does help with filling in gaps left by the primary aspects of the economy like SOEs.
The form of democracy and the mode of production in China ensures that there is a connection between the people and the state. Policies like the mass line are in place to ensure this direct connection remains. This is why over 90% of the Chinese population supports the government, and why they have such strong perceptions around democracy:
The Chinese political system is based on whole-process people’s democracy, a form of consultative democracy. The local government is directly elected, and then these governments elect people to higher rungs, meaning any candidate at the top level must have worked their way up from the bottom and directly proved themselves. Combining this consultative, ground-up democracy with top-down economic planning is the key to China’s success.
I highly recommend Roland Boer’s Socialism in Power: On the History and Theory of Socialist Governance. Socialist democracy has been imperfect, but has gone through a number of changes and adaptations over the years as we’ve learned more from testing theory to practice. Boer goes over the history behind socialist democracy in this textbook.
China does have billionaires, as you might then protest. China is in the developing stages of socialism. Between capitalism, which is characterized by private ownership being the principal aspect of the economy and the capitalists in control of the state, and communism, characterized by full collectivization of production and distribution devoid of classes and the state, run along the lines of a common plan, is socialism, where public ownership is principle and the working classes in control. China in particular is working its way out of the initial stages of socialism:
The reason China has billionaires is because China has private property, and the reason it has private property is because of 2 major factors: the world economy is still dominated by the US empire, and because you cannot simply abolish private property at the stroke of a pen. China tried that already. The Gang of Four tried to dogmatically force a publicly owned and planned economy when the infrastructure best suited to that hadn’t been laid out by markets, and as a consequence growth was positive but highly unstable.
Why does it matter that the US Empire controls the world economy? Because as capitalism monopolizes, it is compelled to expand outward in order to fight falling rates of profit by raising absolute profits. The merging of bank and industrial capital into finance capital leads to export of capital, ie outsourcing. This process allows super-exploitation for super-profits, and is known as imperialism.
In the People’s Republic of China, under Mao and later the Gang of Four, growth was overall positive but was unstable. The centrally planned economy had brought great benefits in many areas, but because the productive forces themselves were underdeveloped, economic growth wasn’t steady. There began to be discussion and division in the party, until Deng Xiapoing’s faction pushing for Reform and Opening Up won out, and growth was stabilized.
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Deng’s plan was to introduce market reforms, localized around Special Economic Zones, while maintaining full control over the principle aspects of the economy. Limited private capital would be introduced, especially by luring in foreign investors, such as the US, pivoting from more isolationist positions into one fully immersed in the global marketplace. As the small and medium firms grow into large firms, the state exerts more control and subsumes them more into the public sector. This was a gamble, but unlike what happened to the USSR, this was done in a controlled manner that ended up not undermining the socialist system overall.
China’s rapidly improving productive forces and cheap labor ended up being an irresistable match for US financial capital, even though the CPC maintained full sovereignty. This is in stark contrast to how the global north traditionally acts imperialistically, because it relies on financial and millitant dominance of the global south. This is why there is a “love/hate” relationship between the US Empire and PRC, the US wants more freedom for capital movement while the CPC is maintaining dominance.
Fast-forward to today, and the benefits of the CPC’s gamble are paying off. The US Empire is de-industrializing, while China is a productive super-power. The CPC has managed to maintain full control, and while there are neoliberals in China pushing for more liberalization now, the path to exerting more socialization is also open, and the economy is still socialist. It is the job of the CPC to continue building up the productive forces, while gradually winning back more of the benefits the working class enjoyed under the previous era, developing to higher and higher stages of socialism.
In doing this, China has presented itself to the global south as an alternative to the unequal exchange the global north does with the global south, which is accelerating the development of the global south. China is taking a more indirect method of undermining global imperialism than, say, the USSR, but its been remarkably effective at uplifting the global working classes, especially in China but also in the global south.
To call China “imperialist” or “capitalist” is to either invent a fantasy of China or to not understand imperialism, capitalism, or socialism. China isn’t a utopia, it’s a real socialist country.
The one kid having a lemonade stand would fall into personal property. Billionaires are a different thing. Stop creating strawmen. Billionaires are nothing but thieves of the masses.
No, the kid would be petite bourgeois. If we hold to your definition of "personal property" including petite bourgeois private property, then about half of China's private property is actually personal property. I'm not making a strawman either, I am taking your own point to a logical extreme to see it break. You focus on what is allowed, and not which is actually determining the nature of the society, that being which form of production is principal and which class has political power.
I didn't define personal property, my bad. I didn't think I needed to.
Personal property is anything that one can own that is used regularly for their daily lives. This wouldn't include multiple residences that one rarely, if ever, uses. Those empty real estate "investments" all over every city in the US would be Private property and therefore abolished.
You are correct, I'm taking a bottom up view as opposed to top down, because I find that method helps to manage the corruption of the ruling class. I don't see the PRC controlling their ruling class as much as I see them controlling the lives of the workers. Same for the US. I HATE ALL the liars at the top that steal from the people, and enrich themselves to the detriment of us all.
I can see the argument that lemonade kid could be considered petty bourgeoisie in the current situation, especially in the US, since the other kids may not have the means to set up their own, but I assumed we were speaking in theory, not what is in practice for that bit.
I read the lengthy explanation, thanks. I can see that the outward explanation does try to align with socialist principles, in practice I have the same gripe about the PRC as I do of the US. They don't need to know that much about you or me. No government ever does good things with that type of information, and it will always lead to suppression of the workers. I will give the PRC credit that they seem to be heading in the right direction, but let's not pretend that it is a socialist utopia. As I said, from the outside, and speaking with a lot of your tourists and immigrants, the PRC looks a lot more capitalistic than socialist.
I do agree that if they tried to go full on communist that is practically inviting the CIA to try to destabilize the country. I just think that if any country actually wanted to support their workers, they would get rid of their billionaires. I also don't believe any of the governments have any incentive to change the status quo, unless we threaten to burn the whole place down. Peaceful protesting isn't working. Shooting people seems to get more attention.
I didn’t define personal property, my bad. I didn’t think I needed to.
Personal property is anything that one can own that is used regularly for their daily lives. This wouldn’t include multiple residences that one rarely, if ever, uses. Those empty real estate “investments” all over every city in the US would be Private property and therefore abolished.
We aren't talking about the kid's toothbrush, but the kid's lemonade stand. This is private property used to make an income, that the kid owns. This is what makes the kid petite bourgeoisie. If we were to say that the kiddo was giving away lemonade, then it would just be a personal hobby, but this is an income-generating asset for the kid.
You are correct, I’m taking a bottom up view as opposed to top down, because I find that method helps to manage the corruption of the ruling class. I don’t see the PRC controlling their ruling class as much as I see them controlling the lives of the workers. Same for the US. I HATE ALL the liars at the top that steal from the people, and enrich themselves to the detriment of us all.
The ruling class of the PRC is the working class. You even admitted earlier that capitalists that get too uppity are executed or punished. The working classes use state authority to advance their own interests.
I can see the argument that lemonade kid could be considered petty bourgeoisie in the current situation, especially in the US, since the other kids may not have the means to set up their own, but I assumed we were speaking in theory, not what is in practice for that bit.
I meant in both theory and practice, once the kid has a lemonade stand they are petite bourgeoisie. Worker-owners are petite-bourgeoisie.
I read the lengthy explanation, thanks. I can see that the outward explanation does try to align with socialist principles, in practice I have the same gripe about the PRC as I do of the US. They don’t need to know that much about you or me. No government ever does good things with that type of information, and it will always lead to suppression of the workers. I will give the PRC credit that they seem to be heading in the right direction, but let’s not pretend that it is a socialist utopia. As I said, from the outside, and speaking with a lot of your tourists and immigrants, the PRC looks a lot more capitalistic than socialist.
I'm not Chinese, I'm just a Statesian commie nerd, for clarity. As cool as it would be, I am not actually in the CPC nor paid by them, despite what some people have guessed on Lemmy. The key disagreement I have with you here is that you seem to placing too much weight on the existing private property and not on the actual backbone of the Chinese economy, the public sector. This sector isn't as flashy, but it's what drives China's economy forward. Private merely fills in the gaps and helps speed along highly competitive industries.
I do agree that if they tried to go full on communist that is practically inviting the CIA to try to destabilize the country. I just think that if any country actually wanted to support their workers, they would get rid of their billionaires. I also don’t believe any of the governments have any incentive to change the status quo, unless we threaten to burn the whole place down. Peaceful protesting isn’t working. Shooting people seems to get more attention.
Like I said earlier, to get rid of billionaires you have to get rid of private property, which loses China's position as one of the most integrated countries in the world. In exchange for heightened disparity, China gains:
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Technology transfer from western countries producing in China
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A deeply interconnected global economy
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Western countries cannot war with China without destroying their own economies
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The ability to rapidly develop, creating independence and a wide enough gap that the US Empire cannot risk war
These aren't small gains! In exchange for allowing private property in the secondary industries, China has cemented itself as the deciding force of the 21st century.
Thanks for the explanation and discussion. It gives a sliver of hope with everything else that the governments are doing to us.
No problem! I suggest you take a step back and try to study China from a less-biased angle. It's so easy to get caught up in the news cycle.
Who is the Gang of Four?
Oh my fucking God
The PRC only exists in the rump state that massacred twelve thousand people for being suspected communist sympathizers and enacted forty years of martial law? Those are your guys? Jesus christ lmao
Do try to read what I wrote, and not assume what you think I said. This is the third time you have put words in my mouth in the last 5 minutes.
The PRC only exists in Taiwan
Literally one comment ago
Responding to someone who brought them up, I didn't. Your reading comprehension doesn't exist.
time alone doesn't inoculate you from propaganda. referring to events you didn't witness firsthand, in a country you don't live in, with certainty about what you saw on western news -- that's not firsthand knowledge, it's a mediated narrative you've absorbed as fact. propaganda doesn't require lies; it just needs selective framing that feeds your outrage. wanting all governments to "burn to the ground" isn't independent thinking -- it's a script that's been handed to you, and your inability to see that is exactly how propaganda works.
I didn't. I've been employed and worked with people who saw that shit first hand. I saw that shit second hand on the news.
There's a ton of propaganda over what happened during those weeks. I am repeating first hand accounts. The people who told me what they saw are either really good liars, because they couldn't have known each other in the US, or they told me what they saw.
I've not been handed a script, the fact that you think I have indicates that there is a fundamental problem with the system
you trust a handful of self-selected people who told you stories you already wanted to believe. that's not evidence -- it's confirmation bias. first-hand accounts can be wrong, embellished, or shaped by their own trauma and exposure to propaganda before they ever left. you're not a historian or a judge; you're someone who listened to stories that matched what you saw on tv and decided they must be the whole truth. the fact that you can't imagine any other explanation -- that you're certain everyone who disagrees is just "the system" lying to you -- is the fundamental problem. that's exactly what being propagandized looks like from the inside.
Self selected? Tell me you know nothing of getting a job in the US without telling me you've never applied for a job in the US.
I have listened to the other side, and their version is "nothing happened, it was all peaceful, but there were some criminals that needed to be arrested, and disappeared."
I'll believe real people when they tell me why they left China even though they still own property there.
you're doing it again. you're assuming that just because someone has a job in the us and spoke to you, they're automatically a credible, unbiased source. that's not how memory, trauma, or propaganda work. people can genuinely believe what they're saying and still be wrong -- also still be repeating a version of events shaped by decades of exile and media reinforcement.
you also keep framing this as "real people" vs. "the other side," as if the chinese government's official account is the only alternative to fallible informants. that's a false choice. there are historians, journalists, and researchers who don't work for either the ccp or the us government and who have pieced together more nuanced versions than either "nothing happened" or the narrative you're holding onto and they're very easy to find.
the fact that you won't entertain the possibility that your sources might be incomplete or shaped by their own biases -- and instead mock anyone who questions you as ignorant of how jobs work -- says you're not actually weighing evidence. you're defending an identity. and that's what someone who's been propagandized does, whether they realize it or not.
Tell me you didn't understand what I said, without telling me you didn't understand what I said.
Congratulations you have now convinced me that the reason people hate MLers isn't because they think they don't like communism. It's because all of you are illiterate assholes.
What an enormous coincidence that you seem to encounter illiterate assholes everywhere you go
No surprise really, most of the population is functionally illiterate, and incapable of basic comprehension
It must be very hard to be one of the few smart, correct people
Right back at ya, fucko. You are a liar, I imagine that is harder.
You are a complete fucking idiot detached entirely from reality and specifically the current events of China. You really should actually investigate before speaking you giant embarrassment of a human being. I hope you eventually mature past the age of 12 and come to terms with reality or if that is impossible shutting up and fucking off works too.
Why would I listen to a known liar, government shill, but I repeat myself, and an enemy of the people?
You are an indoctrinated lying racist bigot. You help the CCP export their version of authoritarianism. I don't help the US with theirs or Russia with theirs. Be better.
government shill,
Holy chauvinism. Just call me the slurs you want to call me you don't need to dance around it like this
enemy of the people
Honestly laughable considering I stand alongside 95+% of mainlanders in my support for the current government. It seems you like projection an awful lot.
lying racist bigot
Holy projection.
You just proved my point.
You are an uneducated indoctrinated lying racist bigot, a government shill, and an enemy of the people.
Harvard is a Chinese government shill now sorry I didn't realise. You are such an unserious person it's actually hilarious. Just admit you hate Chinese people instead of hiding behind this pseudo progressive nonsense calling me names that don't make sense I have not been racist or bigoted I clearly stand with the people and you have yet to point to any lies you've just thrown a tantrum shit your pants and cried about how it's my fault.
Almost all Universities in the US shill for multiple corporations and government entities at the same time. It is how they get funded. I know this as I actually went to university. You don't because you didn't, or if you did, you didn't bother learning to think while you were there, and just socialized.
You are an uneducated indoctrinated lying racist bigot, an enemy of the people, and a government shill.
Yes Harvard is shilling for the Chinese government you really are going to double down on that? Fuck, you are a complete fucking idiot far beyond the pale of what I thought possible.
I see you're illiterate as well.
You are an uneducated indoctrinated lying racist bigot, a government shill, and an enemy of the people.
Lol you're like a liberal parody of a communist, just freak out and call everyone an enemy of the people when they present you with information that causes you narcissistic injury
You're the kind of person that doesn't get let into orgs because your impotent pettiness makes you a perfect candidate for federal informant.
Nice projection. Fuck off illiterate liar.
Hey maybe stop calling people speaking a language other than their native language illiterate if you’re trying to not seem racist.
(Not that what they said is off topic at all- it just seemed like you needed an excuse not to engage with the points they brought up directly, so you default to smug chauvinism as a smokescreen.)
You are a lying racist bigot. I am actually pretty neutral
Incredible
"Go back to your own country where you belong" 🤝 "Go back behind the great firewall where you belong"
It's incredible that you racist pieces of shit think you're the good guys here
It's incredible you can't see that I literally replied to his insult in kind. There are no good guys. You just think there are.
Ok, go back to reddit where you belong🤷♂️
Ok, go back behind the great firewall where you belong.
Tibet
Oh, you like slavery?
I like people not being taken over against their will. I hate all current governments none are remotely good.
A) The communists were welcomed by the serfs when they saved them from a lifetime of slavery
B) So then you must also oppose the forcible invasion and takeover of the Confederate states of America by the north, right? Those "planters" were certainly taken over against their will. Do you condem the War of Northern Aggression?
The Northern war of Aggression isn't a thing. The south shot first.
If I had my druthers, I'd go back to the 1300s and sink every single European ship that dared sail more than 20 miles from mainland Europe and England, Scotland, Ireland, and Wales. I might consider letting the Vikings do their thing with iceland and Greenland, but even they get sunk off of Newfoundland. It probably would make things worse, but fuck colonialism.
The south shot first.
So did the Tibetan Kashag. That doesn't change the fact that confederate society didn't want to be invaded. So do you condemn the North in the Civil war? Yes or no?
Fuck colonialsim
Fuck colonialism but how dare communists decolonize a British puppet theocracy, those slavers had rights!
You continue to try to put words in my mouth.
You are a liar, and don't deserve any explanation. Fuck off liar.
Holy shit. You people are parodies of yourselves
I love whenever someone posts the "tank man" photo because the liberals always reveal themselves like roaches scattering across the room when a lightswitch is turned on. Mod ban hammer squish them all plz and thank you.
I love your portfolio.
Why is this in c/memes?
Here on .ml we can enjoy content past cat videos.
No way…. This is a bridge too far for me
Because repetition is an effective way of convincing people to accept a narrative, and meme channels tend to be more widely subbed than others.
What is the bottom photo?
And both pictures show off firsthand a brutal government dictatorship (in everything but name) that is actively going against the will of its people and stamping down boots on the throats of civilians who dare question or hesitate in the face of their rule.
The protestors in Tian'anmen were a mix of Gang of Four hardliners upset at Reform and Opening Up, and student protestors backed by the CIA that wanted to liberalize the economy. They didn't have a consistent goal. Decades later, over 90% of the public in China support their government:

Because if they didn't they were disappeared for re-education lol
No? Harvard studied this, it's because the government consistently delivers on its ambitious promises in uplifting the lives of working people.
You have a hypothesis with no backing. Back up your hypothesis, or accept that the citizenry of China support it because it works really well and is getting better all the time. Obviously people would change a lot about China, the major difference is that they expect the government to bring about that change, rather than assuming it won't.
Further, no, the rioters in Beijing were firebombing PLA vehicles and lynching officers before the PLA was sent in. That's why hundreds died.
People have reported on the execution vans, that's just fake though. As for the suicide nets, the PRC has a lower suicide rate than the US, and lower than Taiwan, so not sure what your point is there.
If the Chinese people agree with you, they're being honest. If the Chinese people disagree with you, they actually secretly agree with you but are too scared to say it.
Bro this is just political Niceguyism. "No dude she totally likes me and hates her boyfriend of 5 years, she's just too afraid of him to show it. He's probably abusive."
Well they kinda have to or one of those murder vans shows up. A lot of doctors regularly get 100 percent of the vote. That must mean they were beloved dictators?
What on Earth are you talking about?
He is saying a lot of dictators have 100% approval ratings. Misspelled it as doctor.
And the "murder vans" is a reference to execution vans that China uses.
"Yunnan officials authorized the use of execution vans in March 2003 and the province deployed 18 vans in the same year. Zhao Shijie, president of the Yunnan Provincial High Court, said, "The use of lethal injection shows that China's death penalty system is becoming more civilized and humane". Amnesty International expressed concern that the use of execution vans could increase the use of executions. The Supreme People's Court encouraged provinces to adopt execution vans in December 2003.[2]"
There is a lot of activity about the vans being talked about online I am surprised you haven't heard of this before.
Execution vans aren't a real thing, though. China does have the death penalty, but not in this comical way, same as PLA suicide helmets. I've seen the claim before, but it's ridiculous to believe them. You can see that the sources in the Wikipedia article don't even back up what is claimed.
As for the idea that "a lot of dictators have 100% approval ratings," I don't see how it matters. Fear of the possibility of something isn't evidence of it happening.
I’m saying if your approval rating is that high. Nobody loves thier government 90 percent.
You do have the death penalty. What method and how many people a year are Executed
Your evidence for the claim "Yunnan officials have started using execution vans at the behest of the Supreme People's Court and Amnesty International is concerned" is....
...the Wikipedia pages for Yunnan, Amnesty International and the Supreme People's Court.
Did you think people wouldn't check?
stamping down boots on the throats of civilians who dare question or hesitate in the face of their rule.
Comrades, you ever notice how when communists write about things like this it reads like a history book and when libs write about things like it it reads like young adult fiction? These mfs think they're giving a speech in a movie
“Is an image of some tanks” is the heaviest lifting fucking sentence I’ve seen in a long ass time.
The other was taken before the murder of several civilians.
It may be helpful to provide a source, because this formatting sort of screams LLM
That's because it is, and that's the source.
LLM’s are not a source, and i never claimed it was.
just like wikipedia is not a source
You just put the LLM output there, if you mean Alan Donald is your source then he's a liar as I already showed.
'source' as in the source of the comment (in this case yeah the LLM did not provide sources)
wikipedia does provide sources
that statement is in quotes because it is LLM. which is why i had to specify that i have read it and it tracks with my position on the matter.
if the information is deficient then because i have used it to stake my portion then others can take that up with me because it is the position i hold.
Okay maybe stop posting slop then
the position i hold.
A very brave and important position you have that you need the slop machine to hold it for you and if is not enough others may help.

careful with "AI" psychosis
People are upvoting slop because the slop regurgitated what they want to hear LMAO.
LLM slop.
Of the few hundred people that died in the riots and fighting, the square was dispersed peacefully. The truth about Tian'anmen is that hundreds of protestors and PLA officers were killed in Beijing that day as the PLA advanced towards the square, but that the square itself was evacuated peacefully, which matches leaked US cables and the CPC's official stance on what it calls the "June 4th incident". This is a rejection of the commonly reported story of 10,000 people being killed on the square itself, which originated from a British diplomat's cable. Said diplomat was later confirmed to have evacuated well before.
Western nations intentionally sensationalize the quantity of deaths and the character of the events. This is also why Western Nations don't frequently report on the South Korean Gwang-Ju massacre that occured around the same era, where the South Korean millitary murdered thousands of High School and College students protesting against Chun Do-Hwan's dictatorship. All of what I said is backed up by the Wikipedia page for Tian'anmen Square Protests and Massacre, such as Alan Donald revising his estimate from 10,000 to the low thousands yet BBC continuing to report the 10,000 figure:
In a disputed cable sent in the aftermath of the events at Tiananmen, British Ambassador Alan Donald initially claimed, based on information from a "good friend" in the State Council of China, that a minimum of 10,000 civilians died,[237] claims which were repeated in a speech by Australian Prime Minister Bob Hawke,[238] but which is an estimated number much higher than other sources provided.[239][240] After the declassification, former student protest leader Feng Congde pointed out that Donald later revised his estimate to 2,700–3,400 deaths.
The truth is that hundreds of rioters and the PLA died that day, but the square was evacuated peacefully. You believe right-wing propagandist slander.
None of my rebuttals are oxymorons, so I'm not sure what you mean by that. Secondly, the fact that China disagrees with the west does not mean that the west is correct. I thoroughly debunked your assertions supporting claims by Alan Donald, who fled the scene before the square was dispersed. You aren't using rhetoric well, and the LLM nonsense is trained on western information and thus is dominated by the propagandist view.
Both are terrifying in different ways… one is power, the other is chaos up close.
Lol bold af to post this on ml.
To be clear this was also before the whole Uyghur thing!
I like how this comments sections is ml people fighting with ml people, as well as Chinese nationals fighting with Chinese nationals over what really happend.
An account existing on Lemmy.ml doesn't make them a Marxist-Leninist.
I know lol, but it also doesn't mean anyone who is opposing the meme isn't one either.
I've seen my fair share of educated/intellectual people deny the circumstances of the Bengali genocide for decades until the Pakistani army went lunatic a couple of years ago and confirmed what was previously considered exaggerated fiction.
Tbf though, I'm fairly sure Tankman made it out alive without a scratch, but that overlooks the people who actually died in Tiananmen.
Not that the US is going to fare any better, especially with the empire beginning to crumble.
To be clear, nobody died in Tian'anmen square. The riots happened in various spots throughout Beijing.
i'm not a marxist and most of us aren't; you should adjust your views to gain a full understanding of what's happening here.
Dang I'm jealous of that title, I wanna be tankie supreme too
I saw a screenshot of someone labelling people "tankie" but cowbee is "tankie influencer" lol
I remember that! Also really funny. My haters are my biggest fans it seems, lol
Lessee it!
Just found out I got a sick as hell nickname, totally undeserved but I'll take it lol
I talk about communist theory and practice. I think "tankie supreme" is a very funny title, lol.
It's so illegal to talk about that it's mandatory at university to learn about as part of the mandatory "outline of modern Chinese history" at university.
- The cause of socialism with Chinese characteristics continues to advance (1) The occurrence and subsidence of the political turmoil in 1989 The reasons for the turmoil: the emergence of corruption, the dissatisfaction of the people, the party's mistakes in its work, and the destruction of hostile forces Summary after the turmoil subsides: stability is very important; "one center, two basic points" cannot be shaken; always pay attention to correcting mistakes; Unable to succumb to external pressures
Cool cool do you have what they say about the literal ethnic cleansing of ouïghour ? Or their annexation of Tibet ? Is it also because america is mean ?

Oh y mean the country they loan money to are happy to say the money giver did nothing wrong. Must be a racy then.
Also of s fucking hilarious cause the photo of the tank man is ban in china while the one about the ice incident was published everywhere in America but yeah sure no difference at all. America bad CCP good
So your hypothesis is that every single muslim nation on earth is so corrupt that China was able to buy their complicity in a genocide? How do you explain the US completely failing to do the same despite having more money?
Euh idk mb the non stop increase of war the us fough there ?
Fought where? We haven't been at war with every muslim nation on earth dumbass, and they aren't all the same place
They are pretty much all anti USA
Anyone with a working brain and a shred of moral fiber should be anti USA

A source without Adrian Zenz to be more precise.
It s well documented. You are delusional for thinking a gouvernement that declare and displace troop from the fucking military for a protest was just to appease the situation
Lol. Lmao, even. You've shared debunked propaganda that doesn't cite any proper sources. I'll refer you to Dessalines's thread about what actually happened in Tiananmen.
Though while we're here, let's address Tibet, shall we?
First, the people of Tibet lived as serfs doing forced labor for the Dalai Lama and other elites. https://www.historicly.net/p/tibet-china-and-the-violent-reactionhttps://redsails.org/friendly-feudalism/
In the second one, they also go further into the history and abuse serfs, peasants, and lower-class monks endured, and has the following:
Whatever wrongs and new oppressions introduced by the Chinese after 1959, they did abolish slavery and the Tibetan serfdom system of unpaid labor. They eliminated the many crushing taxes, started work projects, and greatly reduced unemployment and beggary. They established secular schools, thereby breaking the educational monopoly of the monasteries. And they constructed running water and electrical systems in Lhasa.
Heinrich Harrer (later revealed to have been a sergeant in Hitler’s SS) wrote a bestseller about his experiences in Tibet that was made into a popular Hollywood movie. He reported that the Tibetans who resisted the Chinese “were predominantly nobles, semi-nobles and lamas; they were punished by being made to perform the lowliest tasks, such as laboring on roads and bridges. They were further humiliated by being made to clean up the city before the tourists arrived.” They also had to live in a camp originally reserved for beggars and vagrants — all of which Harrer treats as sure evidence of the dreadful nature of the Chinese occupation.
The PRC liberated Tibet, abolished slavery and serfdom, and built modern infrastructure. Tibetans are far better off now than they were then. Those who resisted this were nobles and reactionaries.
After he was overthrown, the Dalai Lama also received money from the CIA to train guerillas. https://web.archive.org/web/20251104164452/https://www.nytimes.com/1998/10/02/world/world-news-briefs-dalai-lama-group-says-it-got-money-from-cia.html
It's all right here itt, if you can be bothered.
Yeah such a great country that non of you live there and you eat what they disclosed as soft power like it was fact. You talk about a country with election like it was the better one and dont even seem to realize the stupidity of your position. And dont get me wrong I'm not here saying usa is perfect but for real yes or no do u have more freedom in china than usa ?
tbf no one knows whatever happened to Tank Man it’s heavily censored
Yeah ice killed a couple people and we are dealing with that.
The tanks are on their way to kill 2600 unarmed people.
and we are dealing with that.
By throwing dildos at the concentration camps and dancing?
What a stupid comment.
You think anyone is going to see that bullshit and actually believes people are throwing dildos at sports events to protest you. My god know. There were bets online if dildos would be thrown. We call others gambling for money.
Can you remind me of the date of thentianimin square massacre.‘I seem to have forgotten .’tell me the date those 2600 people died. You obviously have freedom of speech in china? Tell me your leaders worst attribute?
Only a few hundred died, many were armed and murdered PLA officers (kicking off the millitary response), none in the square itself, and the tanks pictured are leaving the square where nobody died.
Either way the joke is nonsense. China is the only country in the world saying it was only hundreds. Every human rights employee puts the number on the thousands . These people were unarmed. Classic china trying to pretend mass death isn’t a common thing.
Only a few hundred died
Dude, you're saying that as if it's okay. Hundreds or even thousands die after clearing a protest, how is that ever supposed to place the CCP in a good light?
many were armed and murdered PLA officers (kicking off the millitary response)
Source? Because as far as I can find, the protests were nonviolent until the army was sent in to clear the square. When protestors blocked the army a standoff ensued, which was eventually forcefully broken as per the CCP's orders. The army was initially sent in because the strikes weren't ending and the government was not willing to meet the demands.
Dude, you’re saying that as if it’s okay. Hundreds or even thousands die after clearing a protest, how is that ever supposed to place the CCP in a good light?
There's a huge difference between "the CPC ran over 10,000 innocent schoolchildren in Tian'anmen square with tanks" and "riots around Beijing resulted in firebombings of PLA vehicles and lynchings of PLA officers, who then responded with force, resulting in a few hundred deaths in total."
Here's a pretty good overview. Two days prior to June 4th, unarmed officers were lynched and firebombed in their vehicles. That's why the PLA was sent in to begin with, which then cascaded into rioters blocking the PLA's advance and escalations into killings on both sides. It wasn't an "even fight," it was the PLA vs. rioters, but even still it was the rioters that struck first, hard.
That's a pretty blatant misrepresentation of what happened though. This makes it sound like the rioters started the violence on June 2nd forcing a government response, but that's not the case. The CCP had already declared martial law on May 20th and had mobilised 30 divisions. The PLA was first sent in at that time, but because the protestors blocked them they couldn't advance into the city and were ordered to wait on the 24th.
On the 1st of June, two individual reports (the Li Peng report and the MMS report) were published within the Politburo, decrying US influences and advocating direct military action. The CCP decided that day that military action would be used against the protestors.
June 2nd saw an incident with a PAP jeep that inflamed tensions. But I can't personally find a source claiming firebombings and lynchings at this time. The jeep incident was the trigger that made the students believe military action was at hand though. Only on June 3rd did tensions escalate further, when the PLA advanced into the city and clashed with protestors trying to repel them. This is when I can first find the protestors using molotov cocktails and trying to beat soldiers to death, but at the same time the PLA had opened fire with live, expanding ammunition on the protestors (so they certainly weren't 'unarmed'). From there it only escalated further of course. So the protestors were fighting in response to the PLA advancing into the city to break up the protest, not the other way around.
Martial Law is not the same as actual killings, moreover the Liberation News article is well-sourced. As for the killed soldiers, there are pictures of them (NSFL) if you really want to see proof.
Martial law is what mobilized the army, which you falsely claimed happened after protestors started killing unarmed PLA soldiers. I didn't equivocate it to killings.
And of those killed soldiers, here's what your own source says: https://xcancel.com/SebasdePeru/status/1533603901508820994#m
Killed for having murdered four protestors. Not so "unarmed" either then. Additionally, those pictures are from June 3rd/4th, which again is after the PLA was ordered to move in and when they started killing protestors if they refused to clear out. Obviously the protestors will attempt to defend themselves against such aggression.
Martial law was declared, and then rioters started killing unarmed PLA officers. This is what prompted the PLA's response, the violent clashes started after martial law was declared, and rioters started killing officers. Secondly, the source says much of this happened on June 2nd, which backs up the Liberation School article and its sources. Thirdly, the idea that the officer had already murdered 4 people came from the people who killed him, not an outside verified source. In an event where we already know much has been mythologized, this single officer may or may not have been guilty, but was far from the only murdered officer.
Ok so first off, this "source" is a random X account with little credibility, that already admitted in the thread that several images aren't verified and that much is unknown. I have no idea where they pulled the dates from for example; when looking up these images I can find some other sources for the images for the 3rd and 4th of June, but not for the one supposedly for the 2nd. Meanwhile I can't find any other sources claiming these "numerous violent clashes" on the 2nd. In fact, most sources claim that only on the 2nd did the protestors come to suspect that the PLA would move in violently, but only did so on the 3rd (prompting retaliation). I can't find a clear source claiming the violence happened between the 20th and the 24th; only that protestors blocked the PLA from entering the city proper (which didn't seem to be paired with much violence since the PLA wasn't ordered to shoot either).
On the 1st of June (so even before any hypothetical lynchings on the 2nd) did the CCP decide to use violence to clear the protests.
You also keep talking about these supposedly unarmed PLA soldiers. You do realize how that makes no sense, right? The PLA is actively mobilised to enforce martial law, and they're supposed to do so by singing songs or something? Of course they were armed. It's also the primary source for how the protestors got their weapons; taken from PLA soldiers.
I referenced the liberation news article, and linked the images as a different matter. You were the one that started using it for claims beyond that, and now that the specifics behind the images are in question, you're deciding to walk that back. You can feel free to check the article and the sources it lists, like I already sent, rather than fixating on a twitter account I referenced for the images.
Well that's just it isn't it? The claim that on June 2nd unarmed PLA officers were on the square and were attacked there is also unsourced in that Liberation News article. It's just mentioned but there's no footnote present that supports the claim.
And it's hard to make that make sense. By all accounts, the protestors blocked all access to the square. They did so in the period of the 20th to the 24th (first attempt) and also tried to once the PLA was ordered to use violence when they moved in on the 3rd. So how exactly did this unarmed column of PLA soldiers manage to get there again?
And of course we know that the PLA was armed at that point since the protestors took their weapons (which we have tons of photographs of).
You seem to have quite uncritically bought into the CCP narrative of the events, even if the story presented doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Eyewitness accounts also dispute the CCP version. To be clear, they don't dispute that the square itself was cleared (mostly) peacefully, but the events leading up to it and directly after certainly weren't. And the images of that are quite gruesome, with PLA soldiers firing down streets and using expanding ammunition.
Historians don't buy the western narrative that claimed tens of thousands died of course, that was horseshit. But the CCP narrative is heavily disputed too. The death toll likely is somewhere between 500 and 2600, based on eyewitness accounts and imagery of the events.
And just to be clear: these protests weren't universally pro-US. The protestors were highly factionalised, some seeking better relations with the US, but nowhere near all of them did. This factionalism also made it harder to negotiate with them for the CCP, since there wasn't a clear leader.
(Btw I have no idea what you're referring to when you said I "walked things back", as far as I can tell I did no such thing).
I'm aware that the protests had wildly different requests, from hardliners opposing Reform and Opening Up to the "Pro-Democracy" student-led movement. The student-led movement had CIA connections at the leadership level, and by the time of June 4th the "Pro-Democracy" movement was all that was really left.
There wasn't an "unarmed column of PLA soldiers," you're confusing the events of June 3rd with June 2nd. June 3rd saw clashes between rioters, who had taken PLA arms and were fighting, while reports are admittedly mixed on whether or not rioters murdered the PLA officers on the morning of the 3rd alone, or in addition to June 2nd. Either way, the rioters did jump unarmed soldiers who were not deployed as a part of the main force moving in, even wikipedia backs this up.
The CPC narrative has not been credibly countered. Eyewitness accounts do not point to hundreds of extra deaths in concrete terms, they just point towards that being a possibility. As for you walking a point back, I mean when you went in and saw the twitter account saying that the lynched PLA officer had murdered 4 people, which the twitter account stated came from the ones lynching him. I pointed that bit out and then you seemed to have walked it back.
The only thing that Wikipedia mentions in regards to violence on June 2nd is this paragraph:
On the evening of 2 June, an accident occurred in which a PAP jeep ran onto a sidewalk, killing three civilian pedestrians and injuring a fourth. This incident sparked fear that the army and the police were trying to advance into Tiananmen Square. Student leaders issued emergency orders to set up roadblocks at major intersections to prevent the entry of troops into the centre of the city.
Regarding the unarmed soldiers, that was an intercepted bus that was moving soldiers in who had been ordered to take up arms and disperse the protests. There were beatings but Wikipedia does not mention any deaths here.
As for you walking a point back, I mean when you went in and saw the twitter account saying that the lynched PLA officer had murdered 4 people, which the twitter account stated came from the ones lynching him.
Perhaps that was a simple misunderstanding then. You brought up the thread in order to reinforce your claim that the protestors were killing unarmed soldiers (at least how I understood it). Yet the only claim the account made is that the soldier supposedly killed 4 people, so the killing was retaliatory. It does list "the murderers" as the source, but we don't have a better one (at least not one provided there). I mostly pointed it out since that account doesn't come across as very reliable or informed, they posted a couple pictures to set a narrative, but when questioned seemed to walk back the claims they made.
As far as the death toll, best estimate we have comes from Beijing hospital records:
Records from Beijing's main eleven hospitals, compiled shortly after the events, recorded at least 478 dead and 920 wounded, though Timothy Brook notes that these figures are an undercount due to lack of information from other hospitals.
This is quite significantly more than what the CCP has claimed (and quite atrocious in and of itself, even if it's less than the bogus 10k figure).
I wasn't referring to Wikipedia backing up the June 2nd bit. I don't 100% disagree or agree with the rest, but I don't think there's much to argue definitively anymore due to the nature of how hazy the estimates are.
My favorite fed
A few hundred dead protesters is extremely better than being overthrown by the US, preventing that is actually really cool and does in fact make them look good
The protestors were heavily factionalised. They weren't universally pro-US. The US was happy to foment dissent, but ultimately the protestors were still socialists and had not insignificant support within the CCP itself.
Cool story
Because as far as I can find, the protests were nonviolent until the army was sent in to clear the square. When protestors blocked the army a standoff ensued, which was eventually forcefully broken as per the CCP’s orders.
The people in the square left peacefully and without the use of violence. There was no “standoff” in the square. The violence occurred in other neighborhoods, not in the square itself. You can find contemporaneous Western media coverage confirming this, because there were a lot of Western media there at the time. It’s well documented. That’s why we say that the “Tiananmen square massacre” is a myth, because it wasn’t in Tiananmen square and it wasn’t a “massacre.” The military didn’t kettle peaceful protesters into a square and indiscriminately mow them down and crush them under tanks.
I didn't claim there was? The "standoff" happened on the way to the square, not the square itself, when protestors blocked the PLA from advancing.
Still, hundreds (up to 2600 according to historians) died.
I think you mean two million people
Okay. China killed 2 million people then. Sorry for my error
I gotta admit I chuckled a bit when I saw where this was posted..


