Dessalines, head .ml admin, lead Lemmy dev; Pushing Russian Ukraine narratives....again
29d 2m ago by infosec.pub/u/cm0002 in meanwhileongrad@sh.itjust.works from infosec.pub
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Dude is almost directly quoting Russian state media and doesn't even realize he is just parroting a narrative*.
This is why you don't listen to state media, kids. If you hear something on repeat, over and over, you eventually begin to believe those words are true, without realizing it. Confirmation bias quickly kills any remainder of independent thought.
It's a nasty process. If you have ever seen someone have their rational thought destroyed by MAGA, it's the same thing. Rational discussions are pointless: They always degrade into pre-canned political talking points, whataboutisms and blaming others.
* I have often wondered if he parrots misleading narratives with purpose. ml is a perfect recruiting space for trolls and does function well enough to amplify fake or misleading news, after all.
He could easily be linked to one of the many Russian internet influence campaigns.
Yep. Could be parroting Russian state narrative because he's getting paid by the Russian state to do so.
when you're in the cult - you are in the cult
ain't no other way
oddly enough this person had loads of good will with the creation of lemmy to gently push socialism and commieness through the fediverse
the radicalisation is too addictive i guess
I'm not sure if it's just a Dessalines thing or a Marxist-Leninist thing but communists (tankies specifically) tend have auth-leaning tendencies (which they will defend to the death). A lot of their views seem reactionary to just be anti-west in general. Let's support Russia because it's "against the west"!.
Though they are for state power anyway so this should be a natural consequence.
The truth is a lot more nuanced than this, though. Elements of what he says have a decent amount of supporting evidence, namely:
- that US officials and diplomats actively supported the uprising in 2014
- NATO expansion continued despite warnings that Russia would perceive it as a direct threat
- The US and NATO have arguably perpetuated the war in Ukraine because it creates profits for the military-industrial complex, rather than actively trying to bring about peace.
However, all this is not to say that Russia was therefore justified in its illegal invasion of Ukraine, of course. And the extent which you can claim that the 2014 uprising was a CIA coup, or that ethnic Russians in the Donbass were being persecuted by far-rigth Ukrainian ultranationalists is definitely debatable.
The problem is that the Russia-Ukraine tends to polarize people into one of two camps, both of which paint their preferred side as the forces of good fighting against the forces of evil.
Sources:
https://jacobin.com/2022/02/maidan-protests-neo-nazis-russia-nato-crimea
https://www.salon.com/2023/07/08/they-lied-about-afghanistan-they-lied-about-iraq-now-theyre-lying-about-ukraine/
https://responsiblestatecraft.org/cia-ukraine-russia/
Yeah I’m going to call the fascist invading a country bad and the people killing the invaders good. It is polarizing because one side is being killed for no reason other than Putin’s lust for more territory.
If you had read any of the sources I provided, you might see that there's more to this conflict than just a simple land-grab.
Oh yes. It’s also a child kidnapping and civilian butchering genocide. Look at Bucha.
Only a fool would see it as anything other than a waning power trying to assert itself on a former colonial possession.
The Ukrainian people have the right to self determination.
Simple or not, it is a landgrab, it's bright as day, there's zero justification for it.
If you had read any of the sources I provided, you might see that there’s more to this conflict than just a simple land-grab.
🥾👅
that US officials and diplomats actively supported the uprising in 2014
Are we really getting into Euromaidan conspiracies now?
NATO expansion continued despite warnings that Russia would perceive it as a direct threat
Funny how Russia perceives a defensive alliance as a direct threat. It couldn't be because they've openly made insane statements like questioning the sovereignty of the Baltic states, which they regard as rightfully Russia's, or... you know... invading multiple fucking neighbors and annexing their territory.
The US and NATO have arguably perpetuated the war in Ukraine because it creates profits for the military-industrial complex, rather than actively trying to bring about peace.
"Ukraine would have welcomed genocide if only the US and NATO weren't egging them on!" is such a fucking bizarre position.
A US-Backed, Far Right–Led Revolution in Ukraine Helped Bring Us to the Brink of War
The war will only be solved through negotiations that allow ethnic Russians in Ukraine to have autonomy and Moscow’s protection, as well as Ukrainian neutrality, which means the country cannot join NATO.
The Kyiv-CIA partnership deepened under the Trump administration, yet again putting the lie to the baseless idea that former President Trump was somehow amenable to Russia’s interests while in office.
Jesus fucking Christ. Any other Russian talking points you'd like to mindlessly circulate?
If you see NATO as a defensive alliance I have a bridge to sell to you.
That's literally its fucking purpose. NATO as a treaty organization has no other functions than defense and standardization. Everything else is a question of the choices of individual countries. Fuck man, even at the height of the Cold War NATO countries were out supporting opposite sides of conflicts.
I don't really know what kind of boogeyman org you think NATO is, but I might suggest listening less to campists.
So instead of engaging with these ideas intellectually or producing counter claims, you automatically dismiss them as "Russian talking points".
Thanks for so beautifully illustrating my point.
So instead of engaging with these ideas intellectually or producing counter claims, you automatically dismiss them as “Russian talking points”.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandolini%27s_law
Sorry that you want fucking bizarre ideas like "Euromaidan was a far-right coup", "Russia was just really concerned about minorities!" and "Trump was never favorable to Russian interests!" taken seriously, bootlicker.
And funny how you ignore the actual points I brought up in refutation, but I guess the innate desire of all of Russia's enemies to submit to imperialism and genocide is an axiom of your worldview.
Funny how you call me a "bootlicker" and make loud pronouncements about my assumed worldview, when I expressly did not claim to support Russia nor the invasion of Ukraine.
Like I said, dare to question the orthodox, black-and-white view of this conflict and it quickly devolves into shouting and name-calling.
Funny how you call me a “bootlicker” and make loud pronouncements about my assumed worldview, when I expressly did not claim to support Russia, or it’s invasion of Ukraine.
"I just spread blatantly untrue Russian talking points in support of their war aims, I'm not actually in support of them! 😭"
Boot leather taste good, buddy?
Still no response to the actual points I raised either, despite your whingeing about me bringing up that your sources were all common and blatant propaganda canards.
Like I said, with this conflict it’s either black or white apparently.
...
God forbid I hear your opinions on the very reasonable war aims of that Hitler fellow back in 1939. Wouldn't want to see things as just 'black or white' after all.
Maybe imperialism and fucking genocide is bad?
No, of course not. It's the Ukrainians who are wrong. And the West was clearly puppeteering them into defending themselves.
Like I said, dare to question the orthodox, black-and-white view of this conflict and it quickly devolves into shouting and name-calling.
Sorry that you want to spread pro-genocide talking points and be treated with asspats instead of disdain. Maybe go find a circle of like-minded pro-genocide types, like a Zionist forum, for example.
Maybe imperialism and fucking genocide is bad?
Well we agree on this, at least.
To your points, as far as I could make them out:
-
"US interference in Euromaidan is a conspiracy theory" - Public actions and statements by U.S. officials during Maidan (Victoria Nuland meeting protesters, leaked Nuland–Pyatt call discussing preferred Ukrainian political figures) are evidence of U.S. diplomatic involvement and attempts to influence the post‑Maidan government. Also, the new goverment formed close ties with Western intelligence agencies, including creating CIA bases in Ukraine to coordinate activities against Russia and various training programs for Ukrainian commandos and other elite units.
-
"NATO is merely a "defensive alliance" and not a credible threat to Russia" - NATO forces have been used to further western imperialism (which you claim to be against, no?) in places like Libya and Afghanistan. Structurally, it ensures that European members stay subservient to Washington and broadly fall in line with US foreign policy. The addition of multiple countries like Poland, Finland, Hungary and the Baltic States were obviously seen by Russia as signs of encroachment beyond NATO's original mandate.
Well we agree on this, at least.
Clearly we don't, as you consider Ukraine's resistance to its territory being annexed and its people genocided to be the function of NATO puppeteering.
“US interference in Euromaidan is a conspiracy theory” - Public actions and statements by U.S. officials during Maidan (Victoria Nuland meeting protesters, leaked Nuland–Pyatt call discussing preferred Ukrainian political figures) are evidence of U.S. diplomatic involvement and attempts to influence the post‑Maidan government.
"It's debatable whether it was actually a CIA coup!" and "The literal US ambassador to Ukraine discussing the political situation with the assistant secretary of state" are fucking miles away from each other, but that kind of motte-and-bailey argument is the bread-and-butter of far-right bootlickers.
“NATO is merely a “defensive alliance” and not a credible threat to Russia”
NATO is absolutely a credible threat to Russian imperialist ambitions.
NATO forces have been used to further western imperialism (which you claim to be against, no?) in places like Libya
Western Imperialism is when the UN approves a no-fly zone in an uprising against a brutal dictator, and the more the UN approves it, the more Imperialism it is.
and Afghanistan.
You mean the only time in NATO's history when Article 5 was fucking invoked? Jesus Christ.
Structurally, it ensures that European members stay subservient to Washington and broadly fall in line with US foreign policy.
Fucking what.
The addition of multiple countries like Poland, Finland, Hungary and the Baltic States were obviously seen by Russia as signs of encroachment beyond NATO’s original mandate.
Yes, how dare those countries desire a defensive alliance against the possibility of foreign intervention. Russia will have to invade multiple neighboring countries to show them how baseless their fears of invasion are!
It astounds me the level of bootlicking campists are willing to engage in.
It really is astonishing. Leather must taste great when it is non American I guess.
They are russian talking points and have been since this shitshow started.
Their state-owned TV has been parroting these for years at this point, in between unsubtle threats about nuking shit and straight-up lies about more or less anything conceivable.
If you can't admit that or are ignorant enough to not realise it, you're not really bringing anything worthwhile to this discussion.
Let's be real -- Both sides deploy propaganda to suit their own ends. Dismissing any evidence I'm putting forth as "Russian talking points" is just as fruitless as Tankies dismissing you guys as "NATO shills".
It's odd to me that left-leaning people readily acknowledge that the US/CIA has meddled extensively in many parts of the world, and has either overthrown (or helped to overthrow) sovereign nations across pretty much every continent, but when it comes to Ukraine suddenly the idea becomes unconscionable.
It's a bit different when you live an hour from the Russian border and have friends and/or family directly involved in the war.
Unless that's your reality, too, and you actually understand Russian and their general attitude towards anything west of them, you maybe, just maybe, are missing a few things here.
As for the CIA or US fuckery in general I think we all know they're just about everywhere. Ironically, it's probably a bit different now since the US are losing their soft power quite quickly, either by design or sheer idiocy.
I freely admit I'm no expert on the region, and I'm not claiming to have the full picture of the situation on the ground there.
I'm just advocating that we do our best to avoid binary type thinking when it comes to geopolitics, particularly when it involves Russia and the US/EU bloc.
I've lost four friends to this war so far. Two were actively fighting in the volunteer forces and hence knew what they signed up for. The other two very much didn't.
While the third was a random drone into his apartment, what the russians did to the fourth one I can't consider human by any standards whatsoever.
I also indirectly lost my father to this shit. He married a Russian a few years before the war and suddenly started saying the very same things you were writing here. She's from northern Russia but still supports the war and Putin to this day.
There's more, a lot more, but I don't particularly feel like writing more since it gets very personal. Just wanted to give some perspective.
That's just awful, I'm genuinely saddened to hear that. Thank you for sharing.
Who says it's just a land grab? Putin's vision of the world is the KGB vision of viewing America as an all encroaching entity pulling the strings and Russia being the true successor of the USSR, seen as a competing superpower balancing out that influence with its own. His ambitions are also thoroughly imperialist and revolve around the idea of rebuilding the Soviet Union. Beyond that, it's also the most trivial dictator politics: manufacture enemies to distract the population from its real problems. Waging wars is a logical extension of cracking down on minority groups domestically as a way to stay in power.
Riddle me this. Why did Russia move it's troops from Finland (NATO) border to Ukraine. If NATO is such a threat?
Prioritizing immediate military goals over long-term posturing, I would imagine. Putin has to focus everything on winning the war.
Setting up a long-term deterrent against a newly expanded NATO in the north is a secondary goal that can wait.
So, "NATO expansion" ain't really an issue. Copy.
I was stupid enough to engage with them on a similar topic and after like 20-30 comments where they ignored evidence, lied about things that have never actually happened, blatantly misconstrued evidence from completely unrelated events and moved their goal posts so far that they might as well be in another stadium they simply removed all my comments so nobody would be able to see the evidence showing how wrong they were.
Pretty stupid of me and since lemmy.ml has gone down the drain content wise I love the idea of simply blocking the instance, as stupid as it sounds, did never think about it so far.
I can't even keep em on topic for 2 comments in a row. On a post making fun of "two things can be bad" as falling for propaganda, someone pointed out the outright nazi shit putin says. Someone comes back with literal "whatabout Ukraine."
Does that mean one sides nazism justified another? Or that they actually do think both sides can have negative qualities at once? Hell if I know, when I asked they said that's a strawman and didn't even explain what the whataboutism meant.
I've seen it! It got deleted? Not even surprised. You did a good job anyway. Thx.
The Grand Tour explains what the Russians are doing to quietly steal land from Georgia. Literally moving the border markers at night.
Tankies gonna tank
I just picked up a permanent ban there too for rule 2.
Did you receive your CIA paycheck tho? Mine has been held up again. I'm thinking of establishing a CIA shill union.
At least you got paid, they'll do it for free!
They’re better than Soros was.
I had some interaction with them on an .ml post today, which i can't respond to due to the ban hammer (imagine that).
There's reality, there's perspective, and there's spin.
But then there's blatant lies and propaganda.
That's how they roll at the .ml
Dessalines is a fascist, you say things they don't like and they will just ban you and delete your comments instead of engaging with your comments.
I have made it a point to block any community they moderate.
Let's be honest, when they say you're banned for being impolite, it really means you say things they don't like they cannot argue against.
They do not trust their weak-minded followers won't be pulled away from them. Which is not to say there all weak-minded, there are a lot of great people in these Subs.
SaltFreeBae just keeps proving that he's got absolutely no understanding of geopolitics, and that he lives in a fantasy world where half of reality is whatever he makes it up to be on the spot.
I find it so incredibly funny that the graph is basically "Yeah all opinions different from mine are pure evil, while mine is well-learned and righteous as always."
Not even an attempt at nuance.
A significant portion of the blame for this conflict can be put on the USA, but you'd have to be delusional to make excuses for Russia. Genuinely who in their right mind thinks Putin is a good guy? Or Russian oligarchs? They're just as bad as American presidents and oligarchs, except Russian [wanna-be] Empire is fairly weak, so it's not as big a threat as the US Empire.
You get it.
The goal of the "slavic" bullshit is to claim there are no Ukrainians. Or any other Slavic people besides russians. According to them, we're all secretly russians that were led astray by the evil West™.
Oh, look, brainrot.
anti-US = understands the core of international geopolitics. got it 🙄
Missed a pun- could have called the bottom-left “美狗人们” 🤣
I was about to downvote this post