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Zelensky’s fascism fetish is booming, and the West is still (mostly) okay with it

18d 2h ago by lemmy.ml/u/jankforlife in worldnews@lemmy.ml from swentr.site

I watched a travel documentary made in the 90s and, through it, it was already apparent the west was fomenting fascism in Ukraine.

Check out Eric Hobsbawms documentary on the Vienna Bratislava train line, he also predicted the rise of ultra nationalism in Europe in the 1990s.

First Bandera statue was erected in Lviv in 1992

Lol that’s probably when this documentary tool place.

Maybe cuz it was soviet union untill about then?

Yeah, nazism was not tolerated under socialism. After 1991 fascism exploded in all postsocialist countries, in Ukraine it was also specifically aided by the USA and Canada where a lot of banderites went after war and they were able to go back and participate in the looting of Ukraine.

Not everything evil is nazism, theres plenty other brands of fascism. Not all nationalism is fascist (see IRA, PKK et all).

After 1991 fascism exploded in all postsocialist countries

Huh, just as if 60 years of soviet communism was not enough to convince people it's a better option. Interesting. I do hope you do include Russia in that where it's fascist movements, gangsters and capitalist cronies took over power and rule until now?

there's a well documented history of the ruling class fostering fascist causes to take down socialist efforts and the rise of neo-nazism in post socialist countries -- including ukraine -- is another chapter of it.

Yes, but how do they achieve that in a blink of an eye since the communism fals? Most of Ukraine has been under Soviet control since 30's. That's 70 years, easily 3 generations of people who were raised in it. Then magic, western capitalists elites drop ads for fascism onto people and they turn en mass? Maybe there were some other reasons for that than just the West's doing? Or was it also capitalist ruling class conducting an antisemitic purge in Poland in 1968?

none of it was created in a blink of an eye. ukranian separatism, for example, has existed for centuries and was fostered by the monarchies of western europe as a foil against the russian monarchy.

the ruling classes don't create fascist movements, they just help spur them along where they would have died out naturally otherwise and as a means to achieve their goals.

ukranian separatism, for example, has existed for centuries and was fostered by the monarchies of western europe as a foil against the russian monarchy.

So monarchical claims are your only perspective of peoples living between Eastern and Western empires? Great, great, wonder why people choose evil ideologies giving them at least the impression of being in charge, over your benevolent subjugation of them to any absolutist power in a 1000km radius.

it's a only the single most relevant example in this discussion, but sure, frame it however you want.

What, giving monarchies power over people? Yes, you seem to be consistently in favour.

What, giving monarchies power over people?

ukraine being used as pawn to stifle russia

Could you explain to me why should its ex-colonies care about the faith of Russia? And for that matter why shouldn't we side with the enemy of our oppressors?
Maybe you attach some absurd nostalgia to something that never was, but we've lived it. I have a soviet stampt in my passport. But now its nothing more than another capitalist oligarchic imperialist regime. You spin your exuses and supposed necessities of some imperialist bullshit but its people in the region who live this, not your imaginary chess pieces.

There was a nationalist/fascist movement there strong enough to conduct a genocide in the 40s, so maybe not everything you dont like is a western plot?

It wasn't very strong really, around 200-250 thousands Ukrainians fought for nazis in total, even after Germany occupied basically entire UkSSR as compared to 7 million in Red Army plus few million partisans and their supporters. Even in 1991 iirc 73% of UkSSR were against dissolution of Soviet Union and independence of Ukraine. If anything, they needed over 30 years of work and 4 prowestern coups to get Ukraine where it is today, 1991 illegal dissolution of USSR, 2004 "Orange Revolution", 2014 Maidan and 2019 Zelensky govt being elected as peace option and instead escalating situation.

No idea where you get the numbers from, but if ~250k people is not a strong movement after 200 years of forced Polonisation and Russicization I dont know what is.

Even in 1991 iirc 73% of UkSSR were against dissolution of Soviet Union and independence of Ukraine.

Well, most of the ones who might have remembered anything but servitude were starved to death so that helps I guess. But who would even publish data like these in a collapsing state?

1991 illegal dissolution of USSR,

lol

and instead escalating situation.

Yeah, when he first used illegaly operating military personel in to size Crimea and the to be "peoples republics" and than drove Russian tanks into Ukraine that was a step to far, totally agree.

Your coherent argument was: "lol", and your bad faith debate pervertness defending nazi state in this entire thread calls for cleaning rather than pointless discussion. Begone, fash.

How elese you expect me discuss your claim that collapse of an empire spanning half of Asia and Europe was a western coup?

And I'm literally saying there has for a long time been a strong fascist/fascist movement in Ukraine, "the west" did not have to plant it. But you have such disregard for all people outside of your sect that you can not comprehend anyone else being self steering people making their own choices, however good or bad.

BTW how could you even coup an actually communist country, where all the power is in the hands of millions of workers? If you believe it fell because of a coup you either admit that soviet union was a dictatorship with a power centralised so much it would be possible or that it was nowhere close of workers control.

Ever heard of Gladio?

Yes. Could you people at least pretend not to think you are better than every one else?

western plot

it's called a plot or conspiracy when people lack an understanding of the reality behind it.

a secret plan made by a group of people to do something wrong or illegal

You got a better term?

class consciousness

Class consciousness of the butchers of Wołyń, or your just attempting to randomly signal your supposed superiority derived from having watched some Marxist tiktoks?

So the Russian invasion continues to make things in Ukraine worse? kk.

The invasion was instigated by the USA they wanted Russia to invade because they thought they could easily be defeated and they could topple Putin's regime. The United States worked for years for regime change in Ukraine, supported leftists (mostly naive anarchists) and nationalists to destabalise any government that favored Russia over the west.

https://youtu.be/LUCCR4jAS3Y

Any regime that dares to stand up to the United States is an enemy. Any leftist who supports any war that NATO supports is either a fool or a willing propagandist for imperialism. The Ukrainian people don't deserve what's happening to them, but they should be just as angry at the western puppets as they are at Russia.

why would the US want to replace Putin, it was the US that helped his rise to power.

Because he stopped playing ball, that's all it takes for the US to want to overthrow you.

in what way specifically?

https://www.jeffsachs.org/newspaper-articles/sj32jtl6876pd8aaeb23y7pzxbyrrp

When I was young, I remember talks about Russia joining NATO. We decided we needed an adversary and the MIC and the construction sector and banks love destroying countries so they can rebuild them.

Russia opposes many foreign policy projects in the middle east and other places. Syria and many other examples. Russia really doesn't play ball.

And this probably isn't a reason for "them" but personally I hate Putin's Russia for spreading first climate denial and for decades not agitprop propaganda and supporting fascist actors in many European countries. Our neoliberal for-profit plutocrat owned social media network have had a massive negative effect on democracy, mostly because actors like Russia use the opportunity that profit oriented social media isn't going to pay for moderators or detecting botnets.

I would have much preferred peace instead of the US and Nato instigating the Ukraine war (Russia simply had no choice but to attack, imagine what the US would do with a China aligned Mexico) but it's not really like I give a shit about Putin's Russia. It's just that neither the Ukrainians or Russian people deserve to suffer and die, or how much wealth is transferred for this stupid war, or the long term negative consequences of a radicalized fascist Ukraine will have on Europe, or the complete conformism of all "left" media and leftists denial or reality. Anyways

So Russians stepped into an american trap by invading a neighboring country with which they have signed a peace treaty and gave security guarantees to?

States worked for years for regime change in Ukraine, supported leftists (mostly naive anarchists)

Lol.

The Ukrainian people don’t deserve what’s happening to them, but they should be just as angry at the western puppets as they are at Russia.

Correct me if Im wrong but its Russians sending a nightly bombardment of their homes?

The matter of NATO enlargement was discussed in detail and explicit assurances of non-enlargement to the East were given by Germany to the Soviet leaders — and then were broken. Germany was the principal beneficiary of those assurances, which were the quid pro quo for Germany’s reunification. Yet as early as 1993, German leaders began to promote the violation of those assurances.

Second — Chancellor Merkel’s own testimony. In her memoirs, Angela Merkel writes with striking candor that she understood at the time of the 2008 Bucharest Summit that inviting Ukraine and Georgia into NATO would be tantamount to a declaration of war on Russia. She knew Russia’s red line. And yet she gave in to American pressure, accepting the compromise communiqué that Ukraine and Georgia „will become“ NATO members. That single sentence set in motion the catastrophes of 2014 and 2022. Merkel’s later candor is a gift to her successors: she has told you, plainly and in her own words, what was understood at the time. Germany should not now pretend otherwise.

Third — the betrayal of the February 21, 2014 agreement. On 21 February 2014, in Kyiv, Germany’s then–Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier, together with his Polish and French counterparts, brokered an agreement between President Yanukovych and the opposition. The agreement provided for a return to the 2004 constitution, the formation of a national-unity government, and early presidential elections. President Putin was consulted; the agreement was confirmed. It was a serious diplomatic achievement under conditions of intense violence. Yet within twenty-four hours Yanukovych was forcibly overthrown by a violent coup. Germany did not insist on the agreement it had just guaranteed. Instead, following the U.S. lead, Germany backed the new government, as if there had been no agreement in place. That decision persuaded Moscow that Western signatures could not be trusted.

Fourth — Minsk II. In February 2015, Chancellor Merkel personally negotiated Minsk II in the Normandy Format and pledged Germany’s political backing through the Declaration of Support adopted in Minsk on 12 February 2015. For seven years, the key political provision — autonomy for the Donbas regions within a sovereign Ukraine — was never implemented by Kyiv. Germany did not press Kyiv to implement the autonomy provision it had championed — and Merkel later acknowledged that the agreement had been used as a holding action to allow Ukraine to rearm. President Hollande said the same. The guarantee, in other words, was not a guarantee at all. It was a stratagem — once again at Washington’s behest. Once again, the message to Moscow was that Western signatures cannot be trusted.

Fifth — Nord Stream. On 7 February 2022, in the East Room of the White House, President Biden announced — with then-Chancellor Olaf Scholz standing beside him — that „if Russia invades… then there will be no longer a Nord Stream 2. We will bring an end to it.“ Asked how, he replied, „I promise you, we will be able to do that.“ The pipelines were destroyed seven months later in an act of sabotage in the Baltic Sea. The available evidence — investigative reporting in the United States and Germany, the trail followed by the German federal prosecutor, and the public statements of former officials — points overwhelmingly to a joint Ukrainian-American operation. The German government has long known this. And yet Germany has permitted the public blame to fall on Russia, against the direct evidence, while an act of industrial sabotage against the German economy has gone unprosecuted and unanswered.

Sixth — the April 2022 Istanbul agreement that was within reach. Just weeks after Russia’s invasion in February 2022, Russian and Ukrainian negotiators converged in Istanbul on the terms of a peace agreement: Ukrainian neutrality outside NATO, multilateral security guarantees, agreed troop limits, and the political resolution of the Donbas and Crimea questions over time. The agreement was within days of signature. Former Israeli Prime Minister Naftali Bennett, one of the mediators, has confirmed publicly that the deal was close and that the West — the United States and the United Kingdom in particular — moved to block it. Prime Minister Boris Johnson’s mission to Kyiv in April 2022 to instruct Ukraine not to sign is a matter of public record. Hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian and Russian lives, and the wider European order, have paid the price for that US–UK intervention. Germany has not raised its voice on this — even though Germany, more than any other European state has borne the economic consequences.

https://www.jeffsachs.org/newspaper-articles/sj32jtl6876pd8aaeb23y7pzxbyrrp

So Germany was again collaborating with Russia against the will of central and eastern European states and Russia gives itself the right to determine what they do? We have been invaded by the Russian empire before, just as well as the Prussian.

Not what I posted. In the early 2000s this level of hostility against each other didn't exist. It was slowly manufactured for 20 years. I urge you to go look at newspaper articles about Russia in the early 2000s

https://archive.seattletimes.com/archive/20000306/4008777/putin-russia-could-be-a-nato-member

Here is an example. The levels of hostility were slowly ramped up. The american military industrial complex needs blood and manufacturing consent takes a while.

Mate, why would I care about US media? I was around in the early 2000 and we were quite concerned about Russia butchering Chechnya. To the point of being very open to Muslim refugees, which is not something Polish society ever does. Also most of the population supported joining NATO and EU against our protests, for the very reason of threat from Russia. This empire has been our oppressor for some 300 years. Go bullshit some naïve westerners, not the people who's right to self determination you freely give away.

Okay man Russians are evil and we should start a nuclear war and sacrifice millions of lives to destroy Russia because Russia is the only country that's islamophobic. It's funny that you don't care about the American media but you sure do gobble up their naratives.

You even read anything of my comments? Or you just stuck on your script where everything outside of "NATO bad Russia good" is to much to handle? For the last years we've been constantly hearing about what we're allowed to do in our borders from Russians regularly threatening us with dropping the bombs on us. What would legitimate self defence be for that if we were Russian ourselves?
Cuz it sure seems like Russia is the only nation on earth blessed to do anything it wishes against the will of us all living next to its borders. All interest of Russia is above any of the people of Eastern Europe, as westerners always believed. I'm so sorry to have questioned your wisdom sir.

Did I ever say Russia good? No Russia as bad as any nation state. NATO definitely bad. What I'm saying is that this war was manufactured by NATO, this has been confirmed by people who were in power, you don't need to take my word for it. Look what Merkel herself said. The military industrial complex and a trillion dollar budget can only be legitimised if you have perpetual enemies to fight. The people of eastern Europe are just being used as cannon fodder for capitalist interests, just like Russians are cannon fodder for nationalist/capitalist interests.

No, you just parrot Russian propaganda. Merkel is Russia's lapdog and made German industry totally dependant on Russian resources sold under market prices. Whatever you claim it is Russians invading Ukraine not the other way around.

Lol you're an idiot. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6Wmx-zETLs

Skip about an hour in there is the former head of sociology department at at Max Planck pretty much saying the exact same thing I did, what I said is widely accepted. The United States has been planning this war since the 1990s. It sucks that for a change a European country is the site of imperialist exploitation but it was bound to happen.

It's funny because there are plenty of professors former CIA agents former american diplomats former military personal who agree with my view, while the only people who peddle your narrative are imperialist propagandists who write for western newspapers.

Even if that were the case (which it is not, but I don't see a chance we could agree on that); is NATO army in Russia, or is Russia in a sovereign state to which it gave security guarantees? Was Crimea out of anti NATO necessity as well?

Yes Crimea had to do with Ukraine wanting to revoke the right for the Russian navy to use the port there.

There is nothing to agree or disagree about just historical facts and the fact of how US and NATO policy works. NATO was founded to destroy the USSR Europe was always going to be the sacrificial lamb if the cold war were to get hot. That hasn't changed.

Ukraine wanting to revoke the right for the Russian navy to use the port there

Ah yes, so much respect for a sovereign state and it's decisions. Should all European states do what Russia wants? Is servitude to an imperial mega state which has occupied your region before your concept of freedom?

Europe was always going to be the sacrificial lamb if the cold war were to get hot

You do know, that USSR did attempt to invade central/western Europe and occupied countries in central Europe long before NATO even existed? It's as if, even if evil, NATO was built using Europeans justified fear of Russian imperial ambitions...

Huh? You mean ww2? The west should definitely stop being imperalist.

Idk why you keep responding to me, you refuse to give any sources for what you say, you just keep spamming me with your ideological takes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzb_ZasL7sc

Here something else you can watch a former east German spy who worked in NATO confirming what I told you.

Edit: Look I get it it sucks that Ukraine is currently being sacrificed for western corporations but I hate to tell you that the EU and The USA don't really give a fuck about the lives of Ukrainians you're pawns in an imperial game.

Huh? You mean ww2?

No, I meant earlier invasions (1, 2) and post-WW2 occupation of central Europe (1, 2, and so on). But in fairness I could even for WW2.

The west should definitely stop being imperalist.

Yes, absolutely. But so should Russia. The difference here is probably about whether or not one considers Ukrainians to have a right to self determination. You seem to be keen on the idea of Slavs having so such right against Russia.

Idk why you keep responding to me,

I'm offended by people supporting murdering of my neighbours.

spamming me with your ideological takes.

Which in particular of my claims could use a source?

former east German spy

So someone deeply formatted by the "communist" security services believes that he's side was right? Should I put it against an ex-CIA operative claiming they were right to set up banana republics? Should we also discuss how the same services dealt with internal opposition(1)? You seriously consider a random apparatchik to be a proper source for any information? But I could agree with the general idea. Even if for someone it was not earlier, by now it's very much clear the US administration in, for lack of better word, playing against Europe. In your style I could mess around and claim that's because of a colour revolution (1), which set up a corrupt oligarchic pro-Russian leader (1), but that's beside the point. Still, for example Polish experience of Russia, so some 100 years of occupation (1), a mentioned invasion (1), second mentioned invasion, in cooperation with nazis (1), some genocidal cleansing (1), followed by 50 years of de facto occupation (1) might convince one that it's better to side with a distant empire against it. People like you like to claim that they have a "geopolitics" or "realpolitic" take on things. This is one, it's a cynical play of one superpower against the other to have any chance to rebuild after occupation. I could dig up a lengthy youtube essay on that if you were actually interested. You somehow think you're one of a niche group to understand that. Seem the French committed a dramatic share of their state budget to create their own nuclear program just for fun, since they could have just trusted US.

Bottom line is; the people who you deny any agency are not dying for western corporations, even if one can draw the interests. They are dying to protect their families and communities. Because, as opposed to you, we know Russia for what it is. We know Russians who decided to escape, we know ones who support that state, we've been to Russia. And because it, again, invaded the lands where people understand what that means.

Oh and finally; if Ukraine were a NATO trap against Russia - it worked. Russia is already crippled and failing, yet still it would not leave the lands it has invaded, such is its imperialist, expansionist mentality.

So in the link you posted, isn't a good example of Russian imperialism, seeing as Communism wasn't really exclusively Russian movement. They seem more like incidents that happened during the Russian civil war. I don't know enough about the background of the Polish republic, but from my very brief reading about it it seems as though around the same time Poland was fighting both the Czech Republic and Ukraine.

Also this happened? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_Coup_(Poland)

As I said I'm sure internal Polish politics were pretty crazy in the 1920s and 1930s like everywhere in Europe but the example you gave me seems like a very bad example of Russian imperialism.

I know all about Zersetzung and the shitty things security services do. The same thing goes for the United States. I'm not saying that in the immediate and personal sense people are sacrificing themselves for American corporations, in the structural sense they are though. Just like the Russian soldiers are dying to secure the profits for their oligarchic class, it's truly the same shit on both sides with various posters on the internet choosing teams. I've said this 100x but you still don't get it I don't support Putin, I just don't think everything he's saying about the war in Ukraine is a lie.

One way to avoid war is not to participate in it. Which is why I think its strange that conscientious objectors are harassed in Ukraine. To me that shows that this war isn't really in the interest of the average person. If you want to call it an imperialist war that's fine, but please use the correct term for imperialism, which is when capitalists start a war to secure profits.

https://youtu.be/Nk7HUF_dQlg

But you and I just have a fundamentally different view of how the world works so whatever I'm not going to keep arguing with you because it's pointless.

So in the link you posted, isn’t a good example of Russian imperialism, seeing as Communism wasn’t really exclusively Russian movement.

There's 5 links in the first paragraph of my response alone. Which one are you talking about? And when was I claiming that it was?

They seem more like incidents that happened during the Russian civil war.

This "incident" engaged some 2 million military personel, caused over 100.000 dead and 200.000 mutilated. Not even taking into consideration the lives and livelihoods of people destroyed. I'd love to have your carefree approach and be able to shrug of stuff like this.

I don’t know enough about the background of the Polish republic, but from my very brief reading about it it seems as though around the same time Poland was fighting both the Czech Republic and Ukraine.

Also this happened? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_Coup_(Poland)

Yes, and? It was also an imperialist state beforehand and arose as a slaver state in the first place, enslaving it's own people. Maybe check the etymology of "slave" and "Slav". Which is all beyond the point. I'm not claiming any bourgeois state is or was good. My problem is that you seem to be thinking a even more corrupt and exploitative one is justified to wage war on them. And as that means where I live, and most clearly is very far from where you live it is a bit of an issue for me.

As I said I’m sure internal Polish politics were pretty crazy in the 1920s and 1930s like everywhere in Europe but the example you gave me seems like a very bad example of Russian imperialism.

Maybe take a second to read back why 20 and 30's were crazy for Poland, what happened before. And then we might have a somewhat more informed discussion. Specifically read up on the expansion of the Russian empire and the borders Putin now wants to uphold. Also maybe what the practices were. How that was latter repeated by Soviet Union, a new state, with the same language and mindset. Might give you some understanding why there's a sizeable number of European states willing to fight against it.

in the structural sense they are though.

In such a "structural" sense your serving your ISP, hardware producers and so on.

with various posters on the internet choosing teams.

My dear friend. I live and work with people who's cities are bombed by Russia daily. They did not invade Russia, Russia invaded them. You're an internet larper who picked a side most likely for some misinformed nostalgia for USSR, we live what you cheer. I personally known great comrades who died in Ukraine, because of the Russian soldiers being there and not rebelling against their oligarchic class using them as tools. This is what you cheer.

I just don’t think everything he’s saying about the war in Ukraine is a lie.

You clearly consume media pushing narratives dropping "[Ukrainians are] bandera nazis with a death cult" like some obvious truism, talking for an hour without saying anything but implying the exact same things as Russian propaganda does. No verifiable facts, but the mood in general concepts are set and you stick with it. So yeah, that's not a surprise, and that's the very reason we're having this discussion. Your argument from the very start is that Russia has somehow right to decide what happens outside of it's borders. It does not and it's killing it's own and Ukrainian citizens proving that.

One way to avoid war is not to participate in it.

If I come into your house, smash your face, take your wallet and keep my shoe on your head, what does not participating in that give you?

Which is why I think its strange that conscientious objectors are harassed in Ukraine.

They should not be. Now how are they treated in Russia?

correct term for imperialism, which is when capitalists start a war to secure profits.

My dear friend, not all people are M-L's, and we don't have to share you're definitions conveniently cut in such a way Russian can never be the "bad guys".

But you and I just have a fundamentally different view of how the world works

Most likely - not in principle. Only yours is limited by a very tight ideological perspective, and I don't have that comfort of putting made up ideals over reality.

And BTW have you even watched the spy video? What did it actually confirm? The most on point thing he says is that american generals considered the soviet abilities as a threat and were keen on testing their enemy and it was dangerous (beyond a body of literature on that subject there's also "dr Strangelove..." saying as much or more), and that Austrian capitalists and a British lord support the concept of exploiting Russia. What in that is new or surprising to anyone? I'm having a very find time finding any actual matter in it other then the guys story as a useful idiot (most likely of both sides and a know leftist student is suddenly let into the most highly secured offices where otherwise only intelligence agencies people work...).

Tldr dude I feel like you're just saying the same shit anyways. Like I get it you want other people to fight a war for you because you think that Russia is some evil empire. Okay if that's how you think history works fine. I don't.

https://www.dw.com/en/sipri-war-in-ukraine-boosts-arms-manufacturers-profits/a-74941558

This is the prime thing that drives history now a days. When you look at why something is happening you should ask yourself who's making money off of this shit. Arms companies have no problem propagandizing people and sending them off to their deaths for their bottom line. I've seen it happen multiple times in my life time Ukraine is no different. If you feel so strongly about the war join up and go fight. They need all the bodies they can get.

tldr

Nah, my entire point is for Russia to fuck off from Ukraine and for you, and people like you, to stop cheering it, since it's seems to be much for you to comprehend that both "west bad" and "russia bad" might be valid, and that Russia is also an imperialist capitalist state.

This is the prime thing that drives history now a days (...)

You clearly haven't read Marks.

If you feel so strongly about the war join up and go fight

Just after you move out from the rotten west into Russia or China.

"Anyone who disagrees with me isn't human"

We're all paid by the Kremlin to influence this obscure underwater basket weaving forum.

As goes Lemmy, so goes the world. 👀

You people have just all become Dr Strangelove