Gas nears $5. Why aren’t electric vehicles selling in the US?
17d 12h ago by feddit.uk/u/Wudi in cars from news.northeastern.edu
Because
-
our government is run by child murdering pedophiles who ruined the economy so no one can afford to eat or pay rent
-
Electric cars in America are exubarantly overpriced or cheap trash
-
if you bought one anyway we dont have infrastructure in place to charge it in majority of places in the US
Hey all, I would like to kindly remind all users to please follow Rule 3 in the sidebar:
Policy, not politics! Policy discussions revolve around the concept; political discussions revolve around the individual, party, association, etc. We only allow POLICY discussions and political discussions should go to c/politics.
I don't want to remove this comment because the rest of it contributes to good on-topic conversation, but at the same time I must remind users that a remark such as point 1 in this comment, whether it is true or not, is considered political discussion. If you want to discuss politics, political figures, governmental entities, etcetera, then you can do so in appropriate communities such as c/politics.
For personal reference, a good way to tell if a remark is considered political is to ask: If someone replied to argue about this, would they be arguing about a law, regulation, or policy? Or would they be arguing about a person, governmental entity, or something similar?
A comment like is fine, and encouraged even:
I hate this new law that outlaws vehicle passengers wearing seatbelts because it is very dangerous.
However, a comment like this is not:
This is all Mr. Politician's fault; he wants to kill everyone and is ruining the world by outlawing seatbelts.
You guys have been pretty good about this so far. Thank you and keep being awesome.
Your # 3 is a myth in the modern day. It's not 2010 anymore.
For local use, most people can charge an EV super-cheaply at home or work, depending on their situation. This takes care of something like 95% of most people's driving.
For long trips, it takes a small amount of planning, but I could road trip across the entire country in my EV without issue if needed. Tesla opened up their charging network to everyone (even if they force drivers of other car brands to pay more) and there are also several other companies filling in the gaps.
It feels like "But there's nowhere to charge it" is one of the top things preventing people from making the switch, and it just isn't true anymore.
"Could" isn't the same as "easily".
I find it to be incredibly easy.
For example, in my day to day, I charge primarily at work, because my company allows me 5 hours a day on a 6 kw charger. My battery's about 60 kwh, so I can put in a half battery's worth of power, or about 120 miles of range, for about $3 per session. That's the cost of about 60% of one gallon of gas now, and I go 120 miles off of it.
And even though it's a slow charger, I don't feel any of that time, because I'm just inside working.
If you charge overnight at home, same story. You plug it in when you get home, and it slow charges, but you don't care because you're not waiting on the car, you're living life in your house and sleeping overnight.
To plan longer trips, there are websites you can use where you say, "I'm starting here, I'm going there, this is which car I drive, and these are the brands of charger I want to use," and it will plot the entire route for you with level 3 charging stops the entire way. That's what I mean by "a little planning"... literally 3 to 5 minutes on a website.
I'd find it near impossible to own an EV. I rent and the only chargers in my area are in parking garages, so I'd have to pay for parking and pay for charging and walk home or sit in the car and wait.
Where you live may be relevant context to whether thats realistic for others. Its totally viable where I am too, but that doesnt really say much about anywhere else
You realize a majority of Americans work at places where they can't/won't offer electric car charging, and live in apartments or similar where that's also not an easy option.
Nah, I've been driving an EV since '23 and I can affirm that it's pretty damn easy.
I completely agree. I live in a major metropolitan area but most of my family lives in a shit hole, rural, regressive state with awful infrastructure in general, and even then they're out in the sticks for a rural state. I've driven our electric car to and from there, a 10-11 hour drive, over ten times in the last few years without a single issue. This last trip I stayed in an even more remote area with access only to a 15A 120V outlet. No problems and I paid 1/4 the cost of driving our ICE secondary vehicle.
I've taken several other trips all throughout the Midwestern United States without problems. Only once did I have a somewhat tense drive on a trip from the sweltering armpit of the United States, rural Arizona, up to Vancouver BC, and only because I chose a more direct route that my trip planner warned would stretch the capabilities of my battery. I kept it at 60 mph, coasted down hills instead of regenerating, and arrived at the next charger with 20% charge, 10% higher than estimated and enough to make it to the NEXT charger without charging.
Sure it's anecdotal, but I've literally saved thousands of dollars versus an ICE vehicle. I don't mind spending a little time planning for long distance trips.
I can see the challenges you mention with people that live in apartments. It's another layer to figure out.
Yeah. I live in an apartment. There's nowhere to plug one in at home or at work, so the convenience just isn't there. If I was living in a house when I bought my car I would have considered it, but a combustion engine car was just so much cheaper.
Which leads into the next thing - regressive costs. EVs have a higher up-front cost, but a lower total cost of ownership, particularly if you live in a house. If you can't afford that up-front cost or don't have a convenient way to charge it, like, say, because you live in an apartment, you may be stuck with getting an ICE vehicle and wind up spending more money over the life time of the vehicle. This is a contributing factor in the poor staying poor and the wealthy, or even just middle-class in this case, having lower expenses.
You're right for most homeowners, but not for apartment dwellers. House renters are probably fine, as even a standard wall outlet is more than enough for most people with most EVs.
I think we need to regulate to have a multiple of the number of apartments for rent to also have electric charging stations. It could start at like 0.2x, but eventually needs to be at least 1x.
No. Here's how that planning would work in the US: ok, at the charger just need to... It's broken. Alright I'll just get to this other one in range... Slow charge.
Doesn't even mention how unrealistic trying to have an EV in most apartments is, super communters or the wonders of running the cabin heater.
I’m very never seen a broken Tesla supercharger. I know they exist, but they’re rare enough that I’ve never seen one
I got fussed at for pointing this out:
Gas stations are usually positioned close to roads with big obvious signage, because their business model was developed before humans went extinct.
Now that it's just us phone tumors, electric car charging stations tend to be in odd locations off the beaten path. If you don't have an app to tell you it's there, you wouldn't know it was. Which is why there are several EV charging networks scattered around, and a lot of ICE car owners don't know it.
The EV charging industry has done a better job concealing its existence from the American public than the fucking NSA.
EV chargers are scattered around in a way that gas stations aren't because EV chargers aren't their own separate stop the way gas stations are. With gas, the refilling process is short enough that you can reasonably just stand around and wait while it happens. But with EV charging, it takes long enough that you need some other reason to be at the place where the charger is, and so having nothing attached but a shitty convenience store isn't good enough. The chargers end up relatively out of the way because they need to be put in places people already want to spend time at for other reasons.
You just made the point. EV chargers are hard to find.
I wasn't trying to refute it; I was trying to explain it (being for a different reason than the other person thought).
Problem is you need to use an app to find a place to charge. Gas stations have big signs and they are just for every highway exit anyway. Electric vehicle charging stations are not advertised from the highways and so you don't know where they are unless you have an app. Using an app while you're driving is not safe, which means that if you're taking a trip on an electric vehicle, you have to set your app up before you start driving to find the next charger. This is much less convenient than what you do with a gas station where you just drive until the fuel gauge starts getting low and then you find a nearest gas station.
Ultimately, yes, an electric car can go just about everywhere a gas car can. And there are some places that a gas car couldn't go either. However, a gas car is still going to be significantly more convenient if you are making a road trip.
Still, nearly everyone in the US lives in a family situation where there's more than one car. Having one gas car for those road trips may still make sense for a lot of people. However, all the other cars certainly could be electric because almost nobody is going to be driving long distances in all their cars every day.
You're focusing on something that's a small percentage of driving for most people. Focusing on the 1% of the time exception case prevents a lot of the positive experience that could be going on 99% of the time.
But even with that, you're also not accurate on the actual experience of an EV road trip, I see a lot of incorrect assumptions in what you're saying. I don't think it's any kind of maliciousness on your part, just lack of knowledge.
First of all, I'm not constantly and dangerously checking my phone for the next charging station info while driving like you have said.
I'm only ever focused on getting to the next charger. Just like you'd get to any other destination.
I leave home with 100% battery and the idea, okay, first I'm going to stop at X charger at the 160 mile point from here, it's just off the main interstate I'm taking to my destination. I share its address into Waze or Google Maps or whatever, just like navigating to anywhere else... this takes like three seconds every time, and I'm not driving when I do it.
When I get there, I come off the highway and GPS navigate to it like any other destination.
I arrive, plug up, and while the car charges over the next 10 to 15 minutes, I use the bathroom, get drinks or a snack or whatever, set the NEXT charger's address into the navigation. Once I have enough charge to get to it, I unplug, drive off. and the next leg starts. So on and so forth, until I arrive to the ultimate destination.
The main difference on the trip between the EV and the gas car is that I pre-plan the fuel stops before I start the trip, instead of just impromptu stopping when I'm low on gas. That's literally it.
And again, that planning takes less than 5 minutes to do, at my convenience, and before the trip actually starts. I'm totally fine with paying that tiny bit of time on occasional road trips to avoid all of the extra time and expense of maintaining an entirely unneeded gas car.
I'm focusing on the 1% because 1% cases are what drives purchases in most cases. Renting a car for 1% of your trips is often expensive enough that it's cheaper overall to just buy the one car that will do everything instead of finding an alternate for the 1%.
Yes, I know you can take an EV on long trips. People do it. However, everyone is planning in ways that people with gas cars don't. Because with a gas car, as you're driving along, you see your fuel gauge running towards low so you stop at the next exit: there's a gas station there. You don't worry about headwind or temperature causing you to use more fuel or some other situation.
Is that really more annoying than all the repair work and climate guilt that comes with an ICE vehicle? Is that 5 minutes more valuable than all the time you spend working to make money to spend on gas and repairs?
Most people consider the climate something that other people should worry about while they can do their own thing.
I find EV owners greatly exaggerate the amount of maintenance and effort that a modern ICE vehicle needs compared to an EV.
Also, I do own an EV and I use it for local trips. For now, the minivan is bigger and that's what we are using for the road trips anyway. However, in the last road trip, I did look at the charging situation and I realized that, yes, I could have taken the EV but chargers were not near as convenient as gas stations are right now.
I think where our mindsets differ is that you, and other people, value the ultimate convenience of just impromptu stopping when the gauge goes low. No one wants to do the little bit of extra brain work to plot the course for navigating an EV. Even though it's actually far less extra work than most people imagine it is, due to the tools that are available to you.
Whereas I'm telling you, it's well beyond worth it for that little bit of extra effort. I spend thousands less every year, with huge reductions in fuel and maintenance costs, than I would be spending had I kept my last gas car I had before making the switch last year.
I have absolutely zero regrets. And I believe most people would be there too if they switched... the experience is just too good.
Maybe this is specific to Tesla, but my cars navigation automatically inserts waypoints for appropriate chargers. No thinking or planning involved
if you're taking a trip on an electric vehicle, you have to set your app up before you start driving to find the next charger
If you're driving long distance you're probably using an app anyway. All EVs have navigation built in. You just type in the destination and the car will automatically route you to chargers as necessary.
I know how to get to my mom's house so I'm not using an app for that.
Do ya ever...drive anywhere else?
Sometimes but the majority of my trips I know where I'm going. Even on vacation I'm generally thinking take this freeway until such city and I'm spontaneously stopping for a museum on the way when we get tired of sitting. Sometimes I'm even this 'freeway is boring I'm going to find a side route'. Roads go places and for long trips I can navigate by a compass and get someplace. In the late afternoon we look for a hotel we can reserve a few hours distant and then use the GPS to get there. But I don't want a forced route until then.
I don't get people who run the GPS for every trip. Can't they navigate without it?
I used to think that as well …. Until I kept running into road closures and construction.
Now I use navigation even on familiar trips because
- immediate detours for construction
- immediate detours for traffic
- accurate ETA to tell your destination
- fastest route rather than just the route I’m familiar with
Bro, my EV literally tells me where the chargers are, how much they cost and how many are in use. Don't have to open an app.
Mine probably would if I agreed to the privacy agreement, which I didn't, and I may also have to pay a subscription, which of course I am not going to pay.
None of the above should be needed to use the vehicle.
Agreed. None of that crap should be needed. I'm optimistic for the Slate truck for this reason.
I'm personally worried that if I buy one it'll get bricked by a bad update, or the company no longer supporting it, or any number of BS non-mechanical reasons. It's impossible to buy one that isn't tied to it's builder permanently. I want to OWN my vehicle.
In fairness, this is a problem with basically every car post 2016.
In fairness, this is why I won't buy a new ICE car either. In principle, I would love to have an EV, but unless I decide to retrofit something I'm never gonna have one, because the surveillance shit in every new car is an absolute and permanent deal-breaker.
Nobody can refute 1 and 2. Though I did pick up a 5 year old Niro EV for $15k a few weeks back. That probably still qualifies as trash. But it’s a good commuter and can handle long trips OK
I’m posting this message from bed in my travel trailer parked at a truck stop for the night as I haul it from Phoenix to Dallas with my electric truck (F150). I have to find chargers that are less than 100 miles apart to make this trip happen. If number 3 were true I’d already be stranded.
also tariffing materials to build cheaper EVS, and and tariffing ones form china too.
Don't forget that electricity is going up fast and the admin did away with the solar rebate programs. I'm sure those are unrelated though.
Because we cant afford them.
The car in the thumbnail is $640,000
But the design looks like a five year old designed a speedy dumpster.
I don't actually dislike it, but a car that looks like that should cost $50k, not $640k.
It would be OK as a Fiat.
Half the trouble is that it's a sedan, I think this is Ferrari's first four-door car. I rather think they should have made their first EV a more familiar two-seater. And that price, man, I don't know how to defend that.
Is it the ferarri luce or the nissan leaf? :p (Love the joke)
And no one should buy it when Porsche exists
this. it comes at a time folks are dipping into savings and even retirement to have food and shelter. They can't stretch for a new car. Far easier to drive less.
Because they’re too expensive. Easy. Next question!
People are poor and have no money, EVs are new and cost a lot of money. Is this the same situation when they keep asking why people are not having kids? I think they know the answer but don't like it.
Used out of warranty Tesla are cheap for a reason. More expensive insurance and repairs.
Plus, ew.
Wait... those are all over budget. Is that you elon?
Lol no Elon would be trying to talk y'all into Cybertrucks since they can't sell them.
Ew, Teslas. Couldn't you have found something decent, like a Leaf or an i3?
I mean sure but that's a lot of car for under 10k unlike the i3 or leaf.
I’d take a shitty Leaf over any Tesla any day. Being seen in one would be enough reason to never go near it.
Because they banned the affordable and superior imports from China lol.
Look into the used market. Lots of nice EVs for cheap because people think EV batteries degrade at the same rate as cell phone batteries. They don't. I got a 3 year old EV for under 25k.
This! I've had my EV for 6 years and my battery has degraded ~8% according to diagnostics. It's still enough to get me ~275 miles at highway speeds before I need to charge, and my average charge session lasts long enough for me to use the restroom and stretch my legs a bit, about 20 minutes.
I take a couple long-distance road trips every year and have never had an issue with range, even when my 'avoid tolls' navigation route takes me on some long stretches of county roads.
For the same reason I'm not buying a new ICE car. I can fix the one I have. I have the tools and the ability. And that one isn't spying on me.
Exactly!
Price is one thing, but this is the deal breaker for me. I want something I can fix when broken. Something with components that can be replaced with typical shop tools. Give me physical buttons over a touch screen. Give me hydrolics, link and pinions, and belts over electronics. There is zero reason for a door handle to be electronically controlled. There is zero reason for the manufacturer to have any control, or knowledge of, where I go or what I do. I want a vehicle, not a fucking tablet on wheels.
I don't even mind electronics, but I do mind DRM and spyware, and every new car is chock-full of it. (Not to mention, increasingly and insanely, ads!)
If I cannot afford five dollar gas, how the hell am I gonna afford an electric car?
Because we aren’t allowed to buy Chinese cars. :(
idk about the US, but for Canada, there's nothing under $50k, and anything around that mark is not what I want.
I want economical, basic, non-super-smart, halogen headlight, simple to repair, minimal touchscreen, physical driver controls, and at minimum a hatchback (but ideally wagon)
that car doesn't exist. so I'll keep buying used cars and repairing them instead of funneling money to manufacturers for shitty products.
Yep. This is what's up.
When Nokia translates their brick phone design into an electric car, it'll sell like hot cakes.
Until then, we will see how many shitbox Toyota's we can keep running well past 300,000 miles.
The used car market comes a bit later after new car sales gets going. It's taken off here in the UK now, we can buy lots of EVs second hand. I never buy new cars.
I think slate is targeting that niche with their truck
do you guys not get European, Korean or Chinese EVs? or are thw prices of those inflated in Canada?
I guess not?
I went to two websites that claim to help you select an EV in Canada and used those results as the basis of my claims.
My car is 20 years old, and not nearing need for replacement.
Our other car is 10 years old and like new still.
Replacing either one makes no sense.
It will if you cant put gas in them.
Gas would have to get pretty expensive before spending money on a new e-car made more sense than continuing to fuel a car that was paid off 15 years ago (assuming a 5 year loan on the 20 year old car).
Now getting rid of one car and replacing it with a bicycle (or e-bike) would be a boss move.
If inflation is taken into account, current high gas prices haven't broken the record yet. What I have noticed is that even during times of high prices, I don't see a lot of changed behavior from people. So it's not high enough for them to reduce fuel use in needless driving or idling in parking lots. Just high enough to complain about.
I do think we need to move to better energy sources and less fossil fuel use, but that isn't going to happen without some outside pressure.
Yeah before this I would keep on mentioning how cheap gas was. I mean the four bucks a gallon seen in the aughts would need to be 8 to 12 now to be about the same in my area. Thing is I kinda feel cheap gas and electronics is the only thing that let us keep this house of cards going.
I also have a 20 y/o car. The $100/month we spend on gas going up to like $120 is a small price to avoid the spyware and touch screens of a new EV we can't afford anyway.
Yeah but fossil fuels are like half of the components of electricity in America, so we won't be able to afford that either.
Even with fossil fuel as electricity source, the chain of fuel to forward trajectory is far more efficient with an EV. Just consider how much waste heat gas cars produce vs EVs. With gas, you’re paying for all that heat that you’re just dumping into the air. Electricity prices are very stable and can be offset with solar or wind at your own home. Can’t refine your own gas with the limited exception of bio diesel.
I don't know the specifics of fuel efficiency for gas cars, but making electricity by burning fuel also produces a lot of waste heat, about 2/3 of the heat goes to the birds, 1/3 is converted into electricity.
20% at most in a car.
In ideal situations an ICE could reach 45% efficient. However it is very hard to maintain ideal conditions, and a car in the real world won't be even close so 20%. This is one reasons a power plant can be more efficient - they have abilities to make conditions more ideal that you cannot do with your car.
My local gas station doesn't have a charger. My place of enjoyment doesn't have a charger. No gas station near me has a charger. My home is old enough where i would need to upgrade the service to get a charger installed.
Is your daily commute less than 40 miles? Then a level 1 charger could be enough. Especially if you can charge at work. Worried about the occasional longer trip? Look into plug-in hybrids. You can run your daily commute on the electric engine but the ICE engine is there for longer trips.
You likely don't need to upgrade service, for a L2 charger either. I have 100 amp service and my biggest hurdle was making room in my circuit breaker. I just had to combine some circuits. I had a few circuits that were just lights. Every bulb I have is LED, so there was no problem combining them. Then I added a $100 device that monitors my whole house usage and turns off the charger if there's a chance of tripping the main breaker. But that never happens because I have the charger set to 30 amp, which is plenty for me. I'd have to be running the dryer, oven, and charger at the same time for that device to kick in, but I have the car set to charge after 9pm when we never cook or do laundry. I could run it at 50amp with this strategy, but it's way more than I need for my 20 mile commute.
If you're genuinely interested but think you can't because of your home charging options, then check outthis video from Technology Connections. This video about electricians unnecessarily hooking up 50 amp lines for EV chargers might be useful too.
If they're rural enough that no gas station near them has a charger, their commute is more than 40 miles.
I live rural and there are no chargers around me for almost 20 miles, the same as my one way commute. I easily charged that up in a night with L1 charging. I was also able to charge at work sometimes.
Also, you don't save money when you public charge. It's about charging at home. Going EV requires a mental change in how you "fuel up." You don't stop to charge, you charge when you stop.
I was on a L1 charger for a couple months and after the mental adjustment, I only public charged when I went on longer trips.
I live in a moderately sizes city >100k people within 30 miles of two bigger cities and no gas stations have chargers in town. There are chargers, but they're in weird places like by the movie theater or tucked behind a brewery.
Assuming you're in the US, you have at least two gas-station adjacent super charger locations within city limits of any 100k city, except in alaska.
I don't know where you're getting that info, but I just checked google maps for my city and it isn't true. There is one single Tesla supercharger location, outside a coffee shop in the parking lot of a Walmart. The nearest gas station is 1.8 miles by car, .4 miles walking (lots of one way streets).
I guess maybe my city is too small on a technicality? The 2020 census put us at 98k people, with 175k in the urban area.
The nearest big city has a population of 299k (metro 800k) and apparently has two total superchargers near gas stations, though one is literally on the city line, so whoever is making that claim is operating entirely in lawyer speak and not how most people would understand that claim.
You can’t only look at Tesla. They may be the biggest, cheapest, most reliable network, but there are lots of other brand chargers as well. You may need an adapter but it could mean a lot more convenience
I've never used a Tesla charger, my car can't without an adapter. But the commenter made a claim about super chargers, Tesla's proprietary charging network, specifically and it sounded like the info came from a PR promise Tesla made that isn't true in a practical sense.
I've had no problems charging my car on road trips, but it has mostly been in e.g. Ford dealerships outside of towns with nothing to do but sit in my car.
I’m same in reverse. I’ve never had problems finding Tesla superchargers on any trips. Most of them seem to be at shopping centers or malls, so there is usually something to do, but the trip planner usually schedules only 15-20 minutes so there’s little extra time
I do see other brands and tried one once to make sure I could, only to discover I didn’t have the right adapter
I have no idea where OPs claim came from but I do know there are a lot and they’ve been everywhere I’ve needed them. While rural areas won’t have any, even then most road trips will pass populated areas that will. Large unpopulated parts of the western us may be a different story
Fwiw the nearest supercharger to me is adjacent to a gas station on a service road immediately off the highway. However I have no reason to ever try one so close when I can charge at home. Was it New Jersey that had them at some rest areas until the state auctioned off the contract to a vendor that had them removed
to be pedantic, no gas station near me has a charger, they're all at grocery and dpmt stores lol
This
Most of the time you are right. Last three contact jobs were well over 60 miles round trip. This job is about 30 mil it's round but trip. Problem is Im a long term contractor so once year I'm close, next few I'm not 🥺
I got a quote to put a 50 amp outlet for a level 2 charger in my garage for $600. This isn't free, but at your commute it will pay for itself quickly since then you can charge overnight. I run real numbers, but I tell people my electric car is like paying $0.30/gallon of gas, which is close enough for my area. I can't tell how much my electric bill has gone up since getting the EVs (last year without any I spent more in February than this year with two - that is my heat pump was working harder last year, and in turn costs more than whatever I'm spending to charge the cars)
Do make sure you get something with plenty of range - in some cars winter range really is half summer so consider getting the extended range battery. Or just remember to find a charger when you are at those distant charges - odds are they are there just hidden.
If you live in a colder area, it’s well worth selecting an EV with heat pump, so less reduction in winter range. Many do, but sometimes it’s an optional feature
I am very happy to never use local gas stations again. Charging at home is a huge convenience.
You might take a closer look at whether you can install a charger: a nice 50a charger is a great convenience, but you could still cover your needs with less.
- most EVs can schedule charging, so it’s only used overnight when nothing else is
- I saw a blog about a “smart” charger that only charged when sufficient capacity was available
- i saw a smart dryer adapter - use the 30a dryer outlet but only when the dryer isn’t running
- you could install a 20a/240v air conditioner circuit to cover most charging needs
- even a standard household outlet can keep up with average driving
After all the comments I put a few calls out. Great feedback from everyone.
Why would a gas station have a charger?
Because some cars run on electricity now, and because there's no more dinosaurs dying today to replenish the gas reserves.
I meant more: Why do you expect your local gas station to have a charger? What use is it? You need chargers 200 miles from home at rest areas with decent coffee, not near your home.
We should make the engineers die a death of madness by forcing them to design a single receptacle that can both charge an EV AND pump gasoline!
I already spark riots by parking my EV at the pumps when I just need something from the shop..
Maybe, maybe not. If there is space in the panel, you could still install a Tesla charger and go into the settings and rate limit it down to what your panel can safely provide. I installed one on my garage and moved it down from 48 amps to 40, but I am pretty sure it can go down much further if desired. Even 24 amps charges the car overnight, so it isn't a big deal at all unless you drive a ton.
Honda and Toyota parts are easy to come by. People consistently drive these for 20+ years. No need to throw down $30k+ on a new car when automakers still treat EVs as something that should be marked up compared to ICE vehicles
30? You are talking 50 to 100k easily now.
There are plenty available under 40...?
Damn. I have not been paying attention to the price of new EVs in the US. I've just been like I'll check around 2035
Because nobody has enough money for a new car.
The pandemic killed my car because I left it sitting for weeks. Which wasn't a big deal since it was almost twenty years old and still had a CD player.
Excited, I was expecting to pay like $20k for a really nice new car. And to my surprise, $20k is baseline average used car now, and new cars are at least twice as much.
I blame politics. Somehow EVs became political, so now people have all sorts of misconceptions and antipathy.
Combine that with price. Carmakers have decided they can be profitable selling fewer more expensive cars, rather than cars everyone can afford
Here’s a recent story …. I live in one of the more progressive states and we do have a decent percentage of EVs (12.5% of new cars as of 2023). My kid is in college about 90 miles away. When picking up at the end of the semester, another parent said “you’re so brave to take an EV this far”. In my state where EVs are well known. Where there’s a supercharger in town and nearby in each direction. Where it is only 90 miles each way
Most people buying a cheap car think "why buy new when I can get a 3 year old luxury car for the same features". Thus selling more expensive cars is the way to make money. Luxury car buyers like that there is value in their older cars - meaning they can upgrade more often since they don't have to pay that difference.
I question the “most people” part.
In my experience most people want a car that suits their needs, and newer is better. They understand that many of the features are unnecessary gimmicks making it more likely to break, and are profit center for the manufacturer, charging you way more than it costs.
Your “most people” is different from mine
The petroleum industry exists due to subsidies but for some reason subsidies for EVs is bad.
you got $80,000 for a car? I mean...I got other problems. I got house problems to fix, I got kid problems to fix, I got loan problems to fix.
If I'm buying anything at $80k it's going to be fuckin solar panels.
I can find used EVs that are like 20k right now, and pretty price comparable to their used ICE counterparts. You don't need 80k for an EV.
- $20k for the car
- $60k for the charging station, installation, and upgrade to my existing electrical system
60k for home charging infrastructure? Your electrician is fucking you, get a different one.
Also, I charge from home, and my investment in home charging was 70 bucks for a cable, and I only paid that because the dealer forgot to get the charging cable from the previous owner.
My home is over 100 years old and still has active knob and tube wiring.
no electrician is going to touch a system with that shit in it.
my garage has a single 20 amp line to run everything. the lights, the chargers, the fans, my electric lawn mower. just using a plug-in drill is enough to trip the breaker. I would need to have a whole new line run to my garage.
so yeah, $60k is cheap when you take into consideration everything else.
Sounds like you need 60k to run a plug in drill, the cost of an EV charger is inconsequential compared to the overall problems with your house.
Also, if you can charge the lawn mower, then you can charge the EV. They literally use the same socket. EV chargers also de-rate to 80% of the maximum load for the socket you are using, so whether you believe it or not, an EV is easier on your crappy old wiring than that peaky drill is.
For a lot of people 20k is still an insane amount though. For me 20k for a car is a luxury
If you have a house, the charger is $1500. If you need to upgrade your electrical panel it can be a couple grand more. Not sure of your exact situation but 60k is pure hyperbole.
The charger isn't even $1500, that's over 15x the actual price.
https://www.amazon.com/Toptoo-EV-Charger-16A-Electricity/dp/B0FPG4492K
80 bucks right there, if you drive less than 40 miles a day, that will keep pretty much any EV topped off. If you do more than 40, you can get a 240 volt outlet for L2 put in your charging location, that actually can get a little pricey depending on your individual situation, but to run a 240 circuit out to my detached garage through the existing underground conduit would be like 600 bucks. L2 charging will charge all but the largest EVs from 0-100 overnight.
I meant that the L2 is $1500. Sure, the L1 is nothing, but it really isn't feasible for a full electric vehicle. (I have a large suv phev and 10 hours of L1 charge is like a gallon and a half of gas)
Also, I was referencing the price of the charger and installation in that first figure of $1500. There's also a 30% or up to $1,000 tax credit for US residents on it. I'm switching from phev to a smaller used EV in a couple months and getting the charger ahead of time before the tax credit expires in June.
L2 isn't 1500, that 80 dollar cord does L2.
Saying you need to charge for 10hrs to get the equivalent of a gallon of gas is really a ...weird... way to measure it. Are to talking 10 hours for the equivalent miles driven that a gallon of gas would provide, or are you talking 10 hours to accumulate the total energy from a gallon of gas?
Ah yeah, we're getting crossed up. I haven't seen an L2 charger that cheap and I was also including labor for installation.
You're right - I did phrase the measurement an odd way - that's because I've mostly described it to folks who are just familiar with ICEs. It's like 8-10 hours for an 18 kwh size battery. As you know, distance out of that is super dependent on speed/terrain. If I drive a combination of my most common scenarios, it provides roughly the equivalent of a gallon and a half of gas in terms of distance.
The ev in this picture is estimated to sell for over $700,000...
And it looks like a mcdonalds happy meal toy.
That’s the controversial new electric Ferrari. Apparently it was not popular with Ferrari fans.
What makes it a Ferrari, except for the badge? It's design was outsourced.
Why you think any of us can afford a new car? And I don't even mean *newz new, I also include a used one that's new to the buyer
Can't put gas in EV cars, that's why! /s 😂
PHEV master race
Because used market for them sucks where I am, and vehicles need a mortgage these days.
The used EV I've been eyeing has increased $12,000 in the last 3 months. Yes, people are buying them. Maybe not new EV's, but they are being bought. Supply around me dried up.
I drive an EV, so don’t mistake this for being pro-ICE. But don’t look at depreciation numbers if you want to stay convinced of EVs being cheaper. That may be why sales aren’t as high as you’d think.
they are luxury cars, and the depreciate like a luxury car brand. 5 years and it's wroth less than half what it was new.
meanwhile toyota tacomas lose 20% in 5 years...
Not all EVs are luxury vehicles.
The Chevy Bolt certainly isn't.
Depreciation shouldn't be a factor in buying a car, it's a thing you own not a thing you sell.
So the only acceptable way to own a car is to buy it and use it until it no longer works?
It may not for into your fantasy world, but depreciation is most certainly a cost incurred owning a car.
...Yes. Outside of hyperconsumerist societies like the US where there is no other thing in a typical person's mind other than BUY CONSUME REPEAT forever because you people have been mentally brain fucked by your corporate owners for the last 80 years, the idea is you buy something and use it until it can no longer be reasonably repaired.
I know for a fact many Americans also think this way, because many Americans are poor and grew up generationally poor. There is no 'oh just get the new model' for any of the Bottom 40% of the US. It is "well an alternator is only $250 and with our shit credit its not like we have a choice to buy new and we literally physically have to have a car to survive this shitty state so... guess we're eating ramen for the next two months."
It's never "oh we need to have a backup camera and gps and keyless start" it's always "The 91 Toyota your dad bought used finally rusted through the frame and after hitting that pot hole its the entire front end that needs to be replaced to get it driving again, let's go by the auction and see what we can get for $500. we could never afford a new car payment."
*Bottom 40% and growing. Honestly it's probably over half just from the societal wrecking ball that was 2025, but many haven't realized it yet.
Depreciation is the only cost since you get the rest back when you sell the car. The only question is are you selling the car when there is significant value, or are you selling it to the scrap yard. Since I do the latter depreciation and the up front price are essentially the same. But my personal self worth isn't tied to the value of the car I drive, in turn I can be seen in a reliable car that has rust, dents, and faded paint. This is my real world, not my fantasy world and I'm glad people like you exist who buy the cars when they are expensive then sell to me cheap.
The fantasy world of which I refer to is your suggestion that that is the only acceptable way.
As you mention, depreciation is a fact no matter how long you keep a vehicle. And I would agree with you that buying new, keeping for a relatively short time, selling it, rinse and repeat is generally a poor financial choice.
But deprecation has a yearly cost even if you drive it to the wheels fall off, and depending on the model it may be cheaper per year to sell it and upgrade before that. Factor in safety and efficiency improvements and the smartest choice is a lot more complicated.
For the record, I haven’t bought new in decades, but generally follow the buy a vehicle approx. three years old and keep it at least six. Seems to be the sweet spot for me.
I miss the 90's. I'd buy a car for a few hundred cash, drive it until a repair cost what I paid sell it for scrape and buy another one for a few hundred. I had a few that ended up lasting years.
Depreciation is fine if you lease and the leading company takes the hit
I buy new cars when I can but depreciation isn’t very relevant when you keep it long enough. We don’t yet have good statistics on longevity but they are potentially excellent
ill buy one as soon as i can get a cheap, non-us made one.
when are we going to be free enough for that? maybe another 250 years?
What do you consider cheap? Used EV Kia’s and Hyundais can be found in the $10k range.
You probably mean BYD though, and yeah, the protection racket of most our domestic manufacturers are never going to let that happen despite not actually making EVs themselves really.
Have you ever tried to roll coal in an EV? /s
Canada here. The other day I was leaving IKEA near closing time, when I noticed 7 electric cars in a single row, more nearby. And it wasn’t near a charging station.
It's amazing how one step over an invisible border things become "impossible".
I live in South USA (please take note that I said South and not Southern) and the parking lots have a lot of EVs and PHEVs. Perspective and context is the problem here, selling 250k EVs a year in Canada is a lot but selling 500k EVs a year in USA is nothing
They are snapped up rapidly here when they come off lease or if they’re doing financing deals
My 2 cents: I could benefit greatly from an EV. Just a small one like a Bolt or something, for commuting.... shudders in suggesting GM for my own use
However, I rent. And my lease dictates that EV chargers are explicitly banned on the property. Something about "safety" and "risk of fire" and all that. Yet during my last inspection, they had absolutely zero issues with my welder, nor do they mind me working on my gasoline/diesel vehicles within the garage (as long as it's not on the driveway...something something property values...nothing more than a brake job in the driveway).
Yes, I know that EVs can be charged elsewhere. But that takes significantly more time than a standard gasoline fill-up, and my workplace (which is 99% of the reason I would own this hypothetical EV anyway) does not have any EV chargers. They might add some in the next year or two, but that's still a "definitely maybe", and so my only other alternative choices are a bike or public transit. Except my commute - a 55MPH rural highway - is too dangerous for biking with the complete lack of bike lanes, and public transit doesn't exist in my area.
I'm left with no other choice but to use a gasoline/diesel vehicle. Or walk, I guess?
Fuck oil. I'm saving up for an electric vehicle anyway. The world may end by the time I've scrounged enough cash, but whatever - corporate evil starves us for money, might as well starve them back
Found your next ride
The only one remotely affordable is sold by a fascist.
I bought a used 2013 Chevy volt with 190,000 miles, and I ran a 10 gauge extension cord from my house to my parking pad since I don't have a garage. So far I have used 2 gallons of gas for the 2,000 miles I've driven since January. Those 2 gallons where used when it was like -20F here in Minnesota. I hope gas hits $10+ per gallon.
What kind of range u get in that bad boi
Im getting 30 miles of ev range on average when its above 40F outside, about 18-20 when its below freezing.
The header image (the Ferrari Luce) is such a perfect, encapsulated answer to the headline.
…That being said, some EVs are reasonable. Like the Honda/Volkswagen hot hatches. And even larger used EVs can be a steal.
Neither honda nor VW sell EV hatchbacks or any vehicle under $40k in the US. As far as I know, only the Nissan leaf, Chevy bolt, and Kia niro are under $35k, and they're all over $30k now. There are some used options, but very few under $20k that are in good condition with acceptable range for most Americans.
Isn't electricity price increasing too, even though at a slower pace?
In some places, but charging an EV is still much cheaper
Yes, but my relatively inefficient (for an EV) gets 2.5 times more range for the cost of a gallon of gas than my wife's pretty efficient ICE car.
So the price of electricty can double compared to gas, and it would still come out ahead.
I can buy a whole lot of gas at $5/gallon when my car cost <5k. That said, I am looking at a Volt. Seems like the best of both worlds, and the older ones are cheap.
I would caution. I own a Volt and the aftermarket parts availability is practically non-existent where I am. I was only able to drive 30 miles at a time for a long while
Had a 2012 volt for 3-4 years that I bought in 2021. It was a fantastic car in many ways but if anything went wrong it was awful trying to find anyone to work on it and many repairs were obscenely expensive to do at the shop. I ended up resetting a battery module, replacing a radiator, and reattaching a bumper myself, and all three were way more of a pain than they needed to be.
I’ve been seeing a TON of tiny cars around my area.
Bc we don't have the reasonably priced China EVs. Just the American tech billionaire electric SUVs and Teslas
Sorry, we're all too busy flying in our private jets.
Because we spent all our money on grifters and fuel
For starters there is little to no unified architecture for electric cars. Everything is more or less locked down and proprietary. Secondly cars, like all other modern electronics, are filled with bloat. They are heavy, inefficient, impossible to maintain. All of this in the pot makes them fucking expensive.
Make an open source platform. Build electric cars where you have basic spartan componentry. Parts bin cars. Knobs and switches. Rolling windows. Replaceable parts. Easy access. 2000lbs with fuck you acceleration. Price is at 20 grand. Buy the car. Own the car. Take it to a shop of your choice, or fix it on your own.
Do this and there would ONLY be electric cars on the roads in 10 years.
Make them cheaper or pay us more, assholes.
- Too expensive
- Not enough range.
- Not recharging fast enough.
- Bad depreciation because batteries.
- Unreliable charger networks.
- Almost non-existent second hand market.
- No access to charger at home.
People mostly use their cars for shorter trips, commuting to work etc but deep down they dream of using it for longer "fun" travels.
EVs in their current state still don't offer this prospect. If you want to go on a road trip you face too many limitations.
When you fork over upwards of 50k for a vehicle you don't just want to go to work with it, you're essentially paying for the dream of doing fun things with it.
Because few can afford a model made within the last ten years, and old ones still had range problems maybe? New batteries are hella expensive.
It must depend on where you live. Here, fucking near 10% of the cars on the road are Teslas! They are everywhere. At a red light, I often see 3 of the fucking things waiting for the light. Not in heavy traffic either. There are more of those on the road than any other single luxury brand of car here, and it’s not even close.
because EVs are overpriced still, 30-60k+ isnt exactly an attractive market.
Let them eat cake type of shit
Because they suck.
I'm getting a ICE because I was something reliable and easy to use and that I can fill up anywhere. Oh, and I'll save for a comparible model, I'll save about 20K in costs. The EV's that meet my needs are all 60K+, I can't afford that. I can afford a ICE that's 40K and gets 35-40mpg though.
EVs are great for rich people who want to show off they have the latest and greatest and how eco they are. They also live in rich areas with public chargers and workplaces that have charges on site, and they don't care about spending an extra 5K for a home charger, or we live in an apartment/condo/shared housing where they are not available and not installable.
The rest of use need a vehicle that just works, all the time and doesn't take hours to fill up, nor do we have all the luxuries of chargers in our towns and workplaces and homes. I can drive my ICE 400mi and fill it up in a minute or two and drive another 400.
They are not for normal middle-class people. They are a luxury good for the upper classes. They are priced accordingly. Until you can make charging take 5m, and sell a EV that's rav4 sized for $30K that goes 400mi, they aren't going to be widely adopted.
and the people who drive 3 row SUVs and giant trucks, are never ever, going to buy EVs.
Nissan Leaf is like 30k and most people don't travel more than 200 miles between charging opportunities the vast majority of the times they need a personal vehicle. Electric vehicles require less maintenance than combustion engines. EVs are a very reasonable choice for a large portion of Americans.
Uhhhh Yeah is like not 30k
I mean, they don't need many options... but that the base price before all the reallllllly expensive fees are added.
That's way over MSRP.
Are you searching from somewhere with huge EV taxes or tariffs? Those prices are way above MSRP, and I am searching from USA.
I know someone who recently bought the new Leaf SV+ and they didn't pay $50k. I just checked Nissan's website and it says the mid-grade (SV+) trim starts at $34230.
It clearly changes depending on where you are. Point still stands as these are before the fees are added and therefor well above $30K out the door.
I don't think this is an EV issue, its just a clown world issue with new cars costing more then people can afford in general without going into debt (and many are maxed out on debt as it is).
cool. why would i want to drive a shit car from a shit brand like Nissan? or a chevy bolt! another shit brand with a shit car.
it's a piece of shit vehicle. you can go buy one. I never will. you can lecture me and everyone else all day long, we aren't changing our minds. but please, go ahead you can buy 6 EVs for yourself I guess?
I will buy a vehicle that suits my needs and preferences, from a brand that offers me value and reliable and quality. Not anything else.
Sure but that's you and you're claiming to speak for everyone in the country.
Yes, because the statistics back that up. As much as EV superiority smug idiots want them not to. Sales are going down because people don't want to buy these shitty cars and the market for them is a tiny amount of people who are buying them for luxury/vanity purposes.
EVs suck. Make them not suck and maybe people would buy them. You can't argue people into buying your shitty product. Until EVs are cheap and easy to use as ICE they won't ever be popular. Maybe in 20-30 years they will be worthwhile.
They mostly suck because they became political. People hate them because they’re told to.
While EVs aren’t for everyone, they’ve been getting better and cheaper every year. They really can cover most people now.
That was where the incentive helped - to smooth out the market growth toward parity. But even without, at least some EVs are similar to ice prices.
But all new car prices are ridiculous, all new cars are loaded with surveillance, all new cars are screen oriented to various degrees. They all suck
I mean, BYD is a thing now and in europe is getting incentives so i guess we're getting close
Equinox EV is similar price to equinox ice, sometimes less