Welsh or C standard library function?
2d 19h ago by feddit.org/u/gandalf_der_12te in programmer_humor@programming.dev from feddit.org
It's sad when you realize that Welsh is actually a more niche language than the C standard library
Kinda self-inflicted isn't it? Or did the UK ban Welsh at schools?
Self inflicted. Self inflicted! What? The fucking English did it through domination.
Self inflicted.
Of course the English banned it in school look up Welsh not.
The fact that Wales was conquered by England so long ago and the language and culture still exist is a miracle.
It's not actually band is it? It's just that if the Welsh go around speaking Welsh she no one's going to be able to understand them. Including the Welsh.
Of course the English banned it in school look up Welsh not.
Your rage made you a word. What?
Welsh Not https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_Not
The UK is usually quite keen on erasing local culture
The UK is involved. What do you fucking think?
I ask a fucking question?
Just curious, why did you assume it was self-inflicted?
How long have Welsh people have internet? How many Welsh people have and had the means to archive the language, maybe even try and popularise it? How long was the Welsh government held back from (and probably they were) from teaching it a schools? Did nobody have the chance to create free, accessible Welsh courses for anybody to access? How many Welsh people that could speak it made an effort to teach their kids and others?
There are options to keep language alive. I can understand it being wiped out (many examples and ways to do so), but if it survives and the people speaking it don't make an effort to spread it, modernise it, and adapt, then it is also self-inflicted. Look at the Baltic countries. Estonia tries to keep up with the times and allows the population to vote on Estonian words that should enter their dictionary instead of the anglicised ones.
There was a suppression of the Welsh language in schools up until fairly recently.
Now this has been reversed and Welsh is taught in schools, some state run schools are primarily Welsh language, and there are rules for government bodies to provide Welsh language documentation and signage.
There's also courses, tv and radio channels.
Thank you for the information.
Reading up on it, it looks like the practice ended around the beginning of the 20th century
However, there is no written evidence of the practice being used after 1900.[43]
The Wikipedia article on Welsh doesn't go into any detail about its suppression beyond that time. It took Wales about 100 years (Act in 2010) to establish Welsh as a nationally recognized language. That's why I was asking the questions. What happened in those 100 years for Welsh not to develop?
Regardless, the language is listed as "vulnerable" but numbers are picking up again. Since there aren't that many Welsh people in existence, I imagine the max number of speakers is quite limited. For the number of C programmers to drop below it, it'll probably be another 50-100 years. If ever.
I don't see how not doing the healing work for the wound is the same as self inflicted.
All of those are questions are good historical questions that provide historical insight to the conditions that prevented this restoration of Welsh being as wide spread. But you write them as accusations, not as points for insight.
And the wounds, while similar, are much older in the case of Welsh which means it could be harder to organize people to do the healing work.
It's very odd to me that you think this is self inflicted and that people aren't doing the healing work. Why are you so sure? I'm assuming you've looked into it.
Why do you think I'm sure? Do questions assert certainty?
You write as if you know what happened and why Welsh is dying out. Answer the questions then instead of whatever moral grandstanding you're doing.
If you are going to put forward the thesis that a language’s decline is 'self-inflicted,' the responsibility lies with you to substantiate that claim with evidence, not to demand that I act as your research assistant. I have no obligation to answer your questions until you have demonstrated a genuine willingness to engage with the historical realities already presented.
So you don't know what you're talking about any more than I do and there is nothing I can learn from you. Why didn't you say so in the first place instead of wasting my time?
So you haven't looked into it, certain you know their wounds were self inflicted, and can't be bothered to do the research yourself. Unsurprising.
I'm just scrolling by and saw the Welsh. I know none of the others, so by a process of elimination, I know them all.
Assuming the question implies an inclusive OR, I know all the answers too : True, True, True, True, True, True, True, True.
rhowch
When scooby burns his tail
https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man3/mbsrtowcs.3.html
https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man3/strxfrm.3.html
https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man3/wcstold.3p.html
https://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man3/wcscoll.3p.html
wcsoll in the picture is an error, unless it's Welsh.
according to Google translate:
rhowch: give
cwtch: hug
mwyn: ore
wmffre: Humphrey
The trick is that 'w' represents an actual double-U vowel sound in Welsh. Not remotely surprised that's what was picked up
Cwtch is one of my favourite words. Pronounced like "clutch" without the L. It means hug.
"Give us a cwtch ye daft old sod" ❤️
oh wow that's nice. i'll see if i can remember it.
Wild assumption for me to make, but is it perhaps a potential origin for "coochie coo"?
Ooh that would be nice
Sounds like the origin of “clutch of eggs.”
I'm pretty sure that is neither and was a text I sent last week when drunk...
Its cool that alcohol brings out your superpower of on-the-fly encryption
Cool... Crippling addiction... You say tomato I say... cries self to sleep
Dydw i ddim yn deall...
Ah yes. A language forced onto unwilling participants by people who still think it should relevant in the modern age. And the other one is a Celtic language.
C will be relevant till the heat death of the universe. if humanity ever dooms itself back to the stone age, all it would require is some bloke to invent a rudimentary binary computer and some nerd to write a basic C compiler for it, humanity will doom itself again in less than 50 years.
Unfortunately, it's the only sane cross-language ABI option there is.
C++ is a close second, which is mostly because C++ uses the C ABI wherever it can.
Even if the language itself is obsolete, it will live on for many more years just because of that.
Long ago in the Windows 9x era there was also "Is this a Windows DLL file, or a transcript of a digestion noise" and the stuff was like "MSGRBL32.DLL"
When the grass gets long at my welsh cottage I’m mwyn that wmffre
My partner has been learning a tiny bit of Welsh on Duolingo so this got a giggle out of her 🙂
Was that supposed to be wcscoll, not wcsoll?
...they're the same picture
fixed, lol
Are there any C libraries other than the standard library that use this kind of naming style?
Besides ncurses
ncursed
Mwyn is a Super Furry Animals album, and I believe the biggest selling Welsh album of all time. Y Teimlad is a real tear jerker. Cwytch is a cuddle. Heard Nigel Owens say it to two misbehaving players during a rugby match once.
The rest I dunno…
I guess strxfrm and the like date back to a period in the 80s when symbol names had to be kept short for the compiler/interpreter's sake. Like while BASIC back in those days technically allowed > 8 chr names, the interpreter only stored the first 8. In other words, the first 8 needed to be unique. As such, people tended to stick with <= 8 chr symbols to avoid interpreter issues. I think C allowed up to 31? But the culture of <= 8 prevailed nevertheless.
Then in the 90s, such restrictions were largely dropped in most languages, and symbol names ballooned in size to take advantage of this new freedom. In C++, you even had reserved words growing to the likes of reinterpret_cast around that time, but APIs just got ridiculous along the lines lengthy_class_name_followed_by_fully_spelled_out_method.
Today, people seem to have come to their senses and settled on more reasonable lengths, though not to 80s extremes. Like going back to C++, we have new reserved words like decltype and constexpr. In the 90s, these would likely have been spelled out in full like constant_expression?
i still have a vague mistrust of file extensions longer than three characters.
like a glass walkway, i know .jpeg is just as safe as .jpg, but there's a hint of uneasiness.
I also have a vague mistrust of non-alphanumerics in file extensions. Like while .c++ is fine, .cpp feels…safer?
Well, yeah. Why would you tempt the shell to get garbled?
.cc and .hh feels the most serious.
Then in the 90s, such restrictions were largely dropped in most languages, and symbol names ballooned in size to take advantage of this new freedom.
But with great freedom comes great responsibility. I think Microsoft went from digestion noices to indirectly advertising their stake in arthritis medicine. I mean my fingers ache just looking at C# or PowerShell.
What was so wrong about puts or cout? I know it's not the most intricate functions, but going from a 4chr function to "Console.WriteLine()" is a symptom.
And as long as I'm already a riled up old fart, let me tell you about autocompletion. Why does MS have to autocomplete entire commands from ambiguous strings?
And the kids don't get it. They don't even write the code anymore, let alone understand it... I want coffee flavoured coffee, heavy metal and for dark mode to fucking die!
That felt better, I'm sorry for anybody making it this long.
Dude what's with ur crusade against dark mode lol. It's not like dark mode replaced light mode.
In some cases it did. I often come across dark theme only websites.
Waddaya mean crusade? Have you accidentally seen one of my other tirades?
Anyway:
- I dislike change. I know it's not a good argument, but I don't like change.
- I don't have a lot against dark mode, on a phone. But...
- Running an IDE or word processor in dark mode screams unprofessional to me. I work in a well lit office environment, during the day. In a bright office I struggle reading in dark mode.
- Using dark mode because you "don't want to have your eyes scorched", is the argument of a hobbyist, working in their bedroom.
- I like to view my end product on screen. I'm not printing documents in dark mode, and presentations are more easily viewable with a light background.
It's not an argument for or against dark mode, but dark mode seems like that time, back in the 90s, when people insisted on using a blue background for word processing. We're just going in circles on this.
I sometimes do emacs over a terminal because ofc, but some of the font colors are hard to see in dark mode.
Dark mode to me harkens back to the days of terminals and mainframes. Light mode was popularized by the likes of Apple who believed in the wysiwyg philosophy. A document on screen should resemble its counterpart on paper.
But dark does seem to be in vogue once again. Something I did not see coming, much like how vinyl came back—which also tends to be a dark medium now that I think of it, though I can't think of any reason it really needs to be? Hmm…
I was having legitimate eye strain issues before using dark mode in more places. I also only have vision in one eye, so that factor is in the mix. Anyhow, for me, dark mode is more of an accessibility tool, not "some hobbyist thing".
"How green clean was my valley code base then and the code base of them that have gone. Before the technical debt heap rose up, burying everything in its path."
A few from llvm (maybe?)
- llyfr
- llanc
- llif
I only know cwtch because I've seen it in a book somewhere. The rest I'd have to guess at with a shakey knowledge of how Welsh...looks I guess lol
Yes.