Me_irl
2d 3h ago by lemmy.today/u/sanitation in me_irl from lemmy.today
Capitalism in a broader sense, wage slavery in a personal sense. We are meant to create and frolic and support each other and not this pyramid scheme
While I agree with you for the most part, I dont think things like this should be spread, as it just makes people more depressed because its not fully true.
The fact is, life takes work. If we had ultra Utopian socialism (which is impossible) there would still need to be people shoveling shit and running the sewer plant. And those people are going to want more in return for their labor than the person who runs the greenhouse.
Back in "hunter gatherer" times, you could die easily. If you didnt find food, dead. If you got a small cut, infected, dead. If you found food, its poisonous, dead.
I just dont think we should be spreading thr lie that " we aren't meant to ever work. Life is supposed to be beers on the beach and unlimited 24/7 sex" becuase thats never how it was or ever will be, and its not a healthy way to live for your brain long term anyway.
Also, there is literally nothing stopping anyone (outside of a disability) from hitchhiking to a remote area to live compltetly free of capitalism and consumerism. Even better if you get 20 friends to come do the same and share your food/shelter (yes, I realize a true remote area is rare now and the cops/government would probably stop you. Still, if you pool those 20 folks money together you could probably get acres of land you privately own to do the same thing).The reality is, no one does this.
We work meaningful things for the love of it and/or with proper compensation for the not that interesting work that needs to be done.
All of that is possible and not even utopian in a sense of an absolute which can't be reached. And even in the case that a vision is truly impossible to reach the path towards it is useful.
We are simply not equipped mentally, physically, in any way for working like we currently do.
Even when most work should be done in four hour shifts for three days a week per person, plenty of people could be freed to just be creative for higher purposes. Living shouldn't be a paid subscription snd it doesn't need to be. Everyone's living is already possible to provide. Not even a pipedream.
Communes do happen and exist but let's be realistic. Lifting up your life and having the capital to go exit is not possible for even the most.
It can depressing but it also needs to be acknowledged to change the situation.
I can understand that. 40+ hour workweeks are usually not needed, except in the case of engineering where you do need that amount of work and expertise.
The issue I have with this sort of thinking is everyone thinks everything can just be free. Even if we all suddenly have time to explore our creative outlets, everyone's stuff is going to be different. What if my skill is welding? Well, now you still need the welder factory, welding wire factory which also involves copper mining , and you have the argon gas supplier and bottling plants AND all the work and time to ship those things across the world. Same can be said for anything, unless you only want to code, then I suppose 1 laptop is all you'd feasibly need forever.
Unless you are saying we should eat dirt and live in communist blocs. Which I'm sure youre not, but people would have to literally give up everything to live like you are describing.
I dont think people realize how much work actually goes into sustaining this world and making things you like. You like books, and computers right? Well, without labor to produce and ship those, they won't exist. And its not possible to give every person working in a printing factory a house and a car and enough money to feed a family, even if we eat the rich.
It just seems anytime someone brings up this "I dont wanna work, we aren't made for working!!" It sounds like a 12 year olds take on the world, who has never worked a job and doesn't know how everything you use daily is made.
Please dont misconstrue that I support billionaire ownership of everything or their existence. I definitely do not. I dont support government ownership of things either. However, even if all of that was destroyed, someone has to be in charge, and people would still need to do work.
I would love to see an actual solution presented against my argument, but I never have. Its just tough to live, really.
Not even engineering has some superhuman abilities or a need for excess. It's widely known that 3-4, sometimes up to 6 are the hours humans are capable of useful work before the quality quickly deteriorates and recovery suffers. People working those hours are only benefiting the networks trafficking children in Bahamas, and humans are kept tired and conforming.
You can have everything in your welding pipeline with humane conditions. There is no need to eat dirt. There's enough food for all easily.
Just cutting off excess slavery version of work and labor doesn't make it all go away.
Then I agree. Theres no reason every person shouldnt be all for socialism.
Tell me you know nothing about socialism without telling me you know nothing about socialism.
I swear I've read your comment, verbatim, on Reddit about a hundred times.
Well, I have never actually seen it explained how socialism affects the "middle class", only the very poor or the billionaires.
For us working 50 hours a week in "skilled" (engineering) trades, or those working in trades no one wants to do (garbage, sewer), what is there for us in socialism? It always sounds good on paper but no one can explain how life would really work under it. And thats assuming a non corrupt government.
It sounds like you've just never bothered to read what socialism is.
Socialism doesn't advocate for no work, everybody gets free stuff, and we all eat berries while sitting under rainbows.
Here's a simple definition of what socialism is:
Socialism is an economic system in which industries are owned by workers rather than by private businesses. It is different from capitalism, where private actors, like business owners and shareholders, own the means of production. The state can also act as a capitalist by owning the means of production and by directing the economy. Socialists believe that capitalists owning the means of production is a form of exploitation because it lets them own a majority of the labor that workers produce, even though the owners haven't done any work. Socialists propose that workers themselves get to own and manage their labor. Socialism is similar to communism, though both have their own different sets of socioeconomic standards held by the people and government.
Socialists believe that sharing ownership of the means of production equally among society would increase people's quality of life. Socialists want to give people free access to basic life necessities like food, housing, and healthcare. Some socialists also believe employment should be guaranteed as a human right. Socialists want to prevent problems that they believe come from unchecked capitalism, like poor treatment of workers and inequality. There are varying views among socialists as to how exactly the issues should be prevented. There are varying views among socialists as to how different issues should be approached. Most socialists would argue that capitalism, in its purest form, can inflict great harm.
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism
The internet is full of information, I'm sure an engineer is capable of figuring out how to locate and read it.
As a starting point, I like this book for its simple explanations of how capitalism works: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Now_and_After. You can read it for free here. It then goes on to explain anarchism, which is a form of socialism. Not all socialists are anarchists though.
til im more of a socialist than i thought i was. all i want is to work at a worker cooperative where we can just fucking fire our leaders if they aren't looking out for our long term best interests. im so sick of working for fucking psychopaths who dont give a shit about the people who work for them or tomorrow seemingly with how recklessly selfish all of their decisions are. the last place i worked the ceo just made fucking boneheaded mistake after mistake fucking over critical employees causing attrition, refusing to hire new people, and expecting people to bend over backwards to keep the same schedule with less than half the fucking people. and they get controlling interest in the company and get to be a multimillionaire or billionaire or whatever for, what, actively undermining the business and threatening everyones fucking living? capitalism is the fucking worst and ceos are a big fat pus filled boil growing on the face of society.
But you can do that within a capitalist system, can't you? Start a company with a bunch of coworkers and share ownership. If you grow and want more workers, give them a share. Since everyone will be so happy and productive and there's no owner siphoning off unmerited profits, you should be able to wipe out and capitalist competition.
That's one idea. One I participated in for a few years. Although the idea of competition isn't necessarily accurate. That's a capitalist concept where your goal is maximum profit. Infinite growth through the capture of a market. And one that a collective must contend with.
There's also the difficulty of working within the framework of capitalist law.
For example, if an anarchist organisation chose to enact freedom from association, collectively, against one member. The whole collective refuses to work with this member any more for some justifiable reason. They are clearly therefore no longer a member of the collective. But if not done wisely the ex member could take the organisation to court for breach of employment law.
Put simply, the law in many countries is written to oppose this form of ownership in many subtle and annoying ways.
Thank you!!
Its not that I haven't bothered, I just find it hard to trust anything because theres so much propaganda against it. Same for finding out any information on political candidates.
Very good site, I saved that to read.
So very surface level for a normal person,
Joe makes 80k/year at his desk job managing large client projects (they build cheese factories ) Let's say we go full socialism right now. So we the workers become owners (this already exists with employee owned companies doesn't it?). How does joes life change ? Billionaires dissapear somehow ? Where does their wealth go that isnt straight into government pockets ? What if Joe is sick of working 50 hr weeks but needs to afford house payments (or other costs)?
Its stuff like this I can't glean from a book or a video. Specific things like this are what folks IRL will argue with me.
These sound like simple questions with simple answers but it all depends on the flavour of socialism. As you can see here, there's a lot to choose from!
Some wish for a gradual transition where we tax the billionaires until there's no longer billionaires, some wish for a sudden change where the billionaires are executed. And of course there's many ideas in between these two. Some wish for some form of government, some wish for the abolition of government. Whose idea is correct? Is there one single correct way? That's for you to determine for yourself. There's no point me saying my views because who's to say I have the correct idea. Leftists are famous for their infighting after all, arguing over whose way is the correct way.
But the broad idea is you would no longer be compelled to work through risk of starvation, homelessness, or lack of healthcare. No longer have to constantly fight for better pay and working conditions.
Some forms of socialism still wish to use money, some wish to abolish money. You see how your questions, which seem simple are actually kind of difficult? But they all think Joe shouldn't have to kill themself working 50h a week, for somebody else, just to afford a home and a belly full of food.
Joe, and people like Joe, run the cheese factory, so they and their community should benefit from the value created by the cheese factory. Not someone who stumped up some cash 20 years ago to buy the factory, so now has a bit of paper that says it is theirs, and has never even been inside it.
The book I linked does cover some of your questions though, I highly encourage giving it a read.
While I agree, and I have read things on the subject, its theory. No one ever takes time to explain to Joe norm how it affects them (which is what we need to do to get anyone on our side here, or they are going to believe fox new propaganda that socialism=bad).
Thats why I'm trying to get straight answers.
ah yes, buying private property to circumvent capitalism
Some people were just made to weave in a circle with others or tend to a communal garden or wander the forest and hunt instead of soul grindingly miserable modern labor. 🙃
Honestly been wondering this myself. I'm just so bad at picking up on red flags for jobs until it's too late. I mean I used to have chances for finding a new job quickly but things have changed now. I just don't get what questions I'm supposed to be asking. My current job likes to offer occasional snacks and free lunch to make up for the micromanagement and overall mismanagement. So stupid.
I had to make some real concessions after I realized this. I just don't have the bandwidth for the grind. I was hanging on when I was single, but I just can't work full time while also contributing to the relationship. So I work part time and do extra chores.
Is that the Car Fax fox?
Neurodivergence
Yeah. Maybe. Functional ND (IMO) do better at unsupervised jobs that have a known path between beginning and end, but aren’t repetitive. Trapped in a cubicle doing repetitive drudgery with some manager that makes you attend meetings and interact with others plus has to keep changing and moving the goal and how to get there would drive ND insane.
I used to feel like shit because I thought I was broken for not finding bareable jobs. Turns out, I dont hate labour, just wage labour.