America's nonreligious are a growing, diverse phenomenon. They really don't like organized religion
2y 8mon ago by lemmy.world/u/MicroWave in news from apnews.com
Mike Dulak grew up Catholic in Southern California, but by his teen years, he began skipping Mass and driving straight to the shore to play guitar, watch the waves and enjoy the beauty of the morning. “And it felt more spiritual than any time I set foot in a church,” he recalled.
Nothing has changed that view in the ensuing decades.
“Most religions are there to control people and get money from them,” said Dulak, now 76, of Rocheport, Missouri. He also cited sex abuse scandals in Catholic and Southern Baptist churches. “I can’t buy into that,” he said.
Religion ruins everything.
Besides architecture. Cathedrals are dope. But everything else, yeah.
I don't hate some older religious music.
Religion was at the center of everything 500 years ago. It's gonna take credit for a lot of stuff because you could barely do anything art related without religious involvement.
And every now and then they'd go on a rampage destroying other people's and eras' art.
Still happening, even… such as the Taliban destroying ancient statues.
Don't forget about the part where the only way you could be somewhat literate was if you were indoctrinated into their little cult.
I do like the sense of harmony that comes from singing together, but yes you don't need a church for that.
If only they could live in that harmony
The Shining's opening theme was based on a medieval Christian hymn, day of wrath or Dies Irae. I love deep vocals and latin lyrics, it's so soothing.
Not all musicians believe in god but all believe in Bach.
Gregorian chants are epic
That first Enigma record is a regular in my listening because of exactly that.
But maybe stay out of rock?
I agree...except the Sagrada Familia which fills me with irrational anger. Looks like Poseidon walked on shore and squeezed out a sand turd. It's so goddamn hideous to me. If I was the god who Gaudi built it for, he would not make it into heaven. I hate it so much.
Not really, it’s just that people can’t stand by this
Christopher Hitchens wrote a book called Religion Poisons Everything. Same idea, long form. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Hitchens
I wish you ppl would stop with your fetishization for any religion outside of the Abrahamic ones. Sikhs are just like any group of ppl and have committed fucked shit in the name of their ideology. Imperial (let's invade and massacre Asia) Japan was Buddhist who used it as justification for nationalism, violence, and persecution. Which sounds pretty damn similar to what Jews, Muslims, and Christians do/did. And let's not forget Hindu nationalism and their problematic caste system
And no this isn't a bashing of religion as a whole because I personally find the argument that religion is the root of all evil as childish. I have no issues with anyone believing anything they want. It only becomes a problem when you feel the need to impose your belief on others. EVERY group including religion, race, class, ethnicity, sex, political party, etc is guilty of that
The non-Abrahamic religions stick with thr peace and love parts in the US because they are not the dominant religion. Any religion ends up being cooped into being used to justify violence when it is on top even when the core tenets are supposed to be peaceful and accepting.
This also tends to be true of most human organizational structures, but religion adds a layer that make it easier for members to accept extreme behavior by the people in their group.
There were Roman Christians who made passionate arguments for freedom of religion, before they took over. Not so much after.
Buddhism is not a religion in the Western sense of the word.
Every religion claims that. Christians will tell you it is a lifestyle and a relationship. Jews will tell you it is a religion and culture. Buddhists will claim to be a philosophy and a mindset. No one wants to admit that they are just another way of doing X.
Cool we are just going to ignore all the Buddhists gods, like the seven headed snake (commonly depicted as the Buddha of Wednesday afternoon) and Maru. As well as the gods they borrowed along the way like Genash and about a million dead monks. We are also going to ignore all the passages in the Pali where the Siddathrata talks about his past incarnations and how he decided to decided to come to earth one more time to save humanity.
Hey remind me again, in the heart sutra what is the reason Siddathrata gives for the importance of giving gold to monks? I forget. Maybe I forget because he refers to it as a secret mystery.
Go ahead and continue. I want you to tell me more about what half remembered YouTube video from a fourlong secular Buddhist you saw once. I am just going to sit here and sort thru the hundreds of photos I have of me in South East Asia.
You are picking and choosing. You choose the few verses where Siddharth told you to verify what he said but you are ignoring the other parts where he instructed a brain breaking meditation practice that if followed would make you believe you grasp it. Nothing new or original. It is basic cult programming. For a man who supposedly demanded that people check his work not a single one of his followers has bothered to critique it in 25 centuries. Or if they did they were buried in a shallow grave somewhere.
Every religion does this. Enough chanting, singing, group activities, repetitions, shaming of heretical thought and eventually you will believe that you have the key to the universe and lo it is exactly the doctrine you were taught! What are the odds that the perfect way to exist just happens to be the way you happened to study?
The greatest extreme is of course in Zen strain. Concentration for endless hours on a paradox, not at all like meditation on the Trinity, right?
Way to deflect btw. As if I don't know what Samsura is. Noticed you didn't answer my question about the Heart Sutra. We both know why.
Basically you can't accept that there really is not much of a difference between the two religions. The Buddha was never just a man, he was a cosmic being that came to earth according to the stories. You are following India's Jesus. Just the Pali itself is twice the length of the KJV Bible and of all those hundreds of pages you pick out a few choice sentences making this celestial being sound a bit sciencey. You ignore all the stuff he got wrong, like his cosmology and geography, and expert shop to find the stuff he got right. You completely brush away the religion itself is practiced and I am firmly convinced that if you went to say Cambodia you would try to correct a monk with an "umm actually".
Buddhism was probably 10% the justification for nationalism that Shinto was in Japan, so that's a pretty bad example.
Also, using Buddhism to encourage nationalism ≠ Buddhisms fault
Every arguments you made can be used for Christianity
I would make the same argument, and say that radicalized religion is the issue, not religion itself.
Most every religion becomes radicalized over time, but that doesnt define the inital religious teachings.
So yeah, Christian nationalism ≠ Christianity's fault.
Moralists with authoritarian leanings are the problem.
Plenty of those around nowadays who, instead of a religions, latch on to some well meaning cause and then proceed to try and shove other people around under the cover of said cause, bringing along the more tribalist (hence unthinking and easilly manipulated with the right words) members of the cause, all the way to pretty much pogroms and purges (though, fortunatelly, not normally involving killing people).
Whilst the vehicle (religion, some ideologies, politics, any "cause" supposedly beyond questioning including nationalism), being something that most people follow in a mindless way is ideal for such subvertion and abuse as an easy source of supporting usefull idiots for people indulging their lust for power over others) the reall problem is, IMHO, a certain type of individual who will seek social situations they can abuse to be powerful (all the way down to the school social bully who uses connection rather than physicallity to have power over others), so it's really such people we should be weary of and alert for rather than their chosen vehicles.
Yeah absolutely, and the problem is they'll always find an excuse - someone on here recently argued to me that since we punch Nazis we should also punch people who use words like 'unalive' because it's an attack on our culture - he was being entirely serious too.
You can see people rubbing their hands in glee at every climate change story too and it's scary, I've been involved with a lot of green groups and eco-positive movements which are full of wonderful people who really care about making a better world - then there are overly online lunatics who never lifted a finger to help native species or anything like that but have decided it's a wonderful excuse to live out their most destructive and hateful fantasies.
Religion is a way of harnessing that awful impulse in people and using it for the benefit of a small theocratic aristocracy, it's a way of saying 'you can get away with being the awfull person you want to be if you do it in the name of our gang and to our enemies'
Buddhism has a talent for conversion by syncretism. Tibetian Buddhism is Buddhism meeting Tibetian Shamanism, Chan/Zen is Buddhism meeting Taoism (which already was very close), both Therevada and Mayayana are rather more Hindu, and what we're seeing in the west is Humanist/Christian, depending on the practitioner. A good dividing line might be belief in reincarnation: Legit Atheists don't care, hell-conditioned folks find relief, whereas originally the whole thing was Hindu and Buddhism calls it dhukka (suffering, also mind that it's tied into the caste system) and promises a way to break out of it. So what was a jail in one context serves as a comfy blanket in another.
In that sense it's very much a mistake to see Buddhism as a uniform whole, or western adoption as appropriation or fetish, or really infer terribly much about one strain of Buddhism from the other.
Then, second note: All those eastern things should be compared, if you want to compare them properly, not to western religion or churches but to that and the whole philosophical heritage dating back to at least Socrates. And gods know in that context we don't need religion to fuck up, we're still recovering from Descartes and like to ignore inconvenient truths such that Newton was an Alchemist. Christians like to ignore that all the stuff that is actually valuable about Christianity, is more than memes furnished to propagate the system (and doing damage while doing so), is lifted from the Stoics. Racism once was "scientific". I could go on and on.
Shame about the genocide, huh?
That was perpetrated by Buddhist nationalists in Myanmar, whos actions are so fargone from traditional Buddhist teachings they can safely be considered not Buddhists IMO.
Ah like the Christian nationalists are so far gone they don't represent Christianity right? Such a dismissive take against the reality of religions and their point to be a source of control over a population and society.
Yup
People of every religion have done horrific things, even Sikhs. I'd know since I'm originally from India.
All Eastern religions have their own problems and crimes committed in the name of their beliefs. Christianity might have some of the more global harms, but it's hardly alone in being harmful.
And yet 70% of Sikh women who were surveyed by Sikh Women's Aid reported they'd suffered domestic and sexual abuse in the home.
The story of the girl slapped in the face by her mother for getting raped by her uncle is especially harrowing 'who will marry you now?' it's vile.
I have to agree with you there.
I used to think Buddhism was an exception, sadly it is not.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_violence
As found in other religious traditions, Buddhism has an extensive history of violence dating back to its inception.
Buddhist sects as a whole are not exception, but I couldn't find an example of violence at "its inception". All the examples I could find are from much later.
Even religious groups hate organized religion. They just make an exception for the one they happen to be part of.
How thoughtful of God to arrange matters so that, wherever you happen to be born, the local religion always turns out to be the true one
- Richard Dawkins
Ricky Gervais said something super interesting to Stephen Colbert, who is a Catholic. It was something like "We actually agree on a lot more than you think. You think that thousands of other religions aren't true. I think the same thing, plus one more."
Early Christians were accused of being atheists by the Romans, since they didn't believe in most gods.
Christians were atheist before it was cool
Sometimes I wonder what Abraham would think knowing literal billions of people worldwide worship the god he made up.
And what he thinks about how all the different sects all hate each other so much.
I know what he would think. "What the fuck??"
Nah, probably not something in Enlgish
The one thing most religions agree on is that all other religions should be eradicated from the world until only the true one remains. Turns out they are ALL right!
I don’t mind people going to Church and practicing their religion, as long as they stay in their lanes and they’re not trying to force their religious beliefs on everybody else. Trying to better yourself and your community is great, there’s a ton of really nice people out there who go to Church and are just all around good people. It’s all the assholes that think their belief trumps everyone else’s rights that need to eat shit.
Not minding your own business is pretty much why Europeans settled North America...
The Pilgrims love to say they escaped persecution, but really they were far right extremists who were all pissed off most of Europe wouldn't follow their strict rules.
So they came to America and started pumping out as many kids as possible. With the goal to become the majority so they could force everyone to follow their rules.
We're worse off because there's no more "empty" land to send them all too. If we ever colonize another planet, it's 100% going to be extremists overwhelmingly signing up to go first. Until then, we're stuck with them.
The sun would be a good place, plenty of space.
None of my family were pilgrims. I don't think you can just ignore the tens of millions of immigrants from Europe who weren't pilgrims
I think their point is that the pilgrims set the cultural precedents for what would later become America, to which later immigrants would be beholden.
I don't know how true that is, but I think "protestant work ethic" is at least one example of that sort of thing.
I think they can make their own point and there response was much different than what you just said
Except it wasn't, your reading comprehension just sucks and you're needlessly aggressive about it
Except it was but hey go ahead and make it about me.
my family
I don't think
you made it about you, doofus
Generic you.
I think you're a dumb removed that made a completely worthless point about your family not being pilgrims. How bout that
Nope but D for trying.
Would they have came here if the pilgrims didn't first?
Like, not just "would they have wanted to" but would the Native population have repopulated the shoreline by then and repelled any settlers like they did the vikings?
The pilgrims were successful at gaining a foothold because they showed up in a place and time the local population had mostly just died off from sickness and the survivors initially helped the pilgrims.
50 years later, even 20 or 10 years later and it would be a different story.
The Pilgrims didn't come here first (of the Europeans). They were beaten by multiple different European groups.
Like, not just “would they have wanted to” but would the Native population have repopulated the shoreline by then and repelled any settlers like they did the vikings?
I don't know. Why don't you ask the French traders that came before or the Spanish pushing upwards from the entire continent they had control over?
The pilgrims were successful at gaining a foothold because they showed up in a place and time the local population had mostly just died off from sickness and the survivors initially helped the pilgrims.
Not relevant to your argument. Also I am fairly confident you are mixing up the Pilgrims and the Purtains. But hey facts don't matter anymore so believe whatever you want.
When you make comments like that, people stop trying to help you...
Although I've noticed a trend where people like you assume they "win" when the other person gives up helping you. Just a heads up that's not what it means.
Oh that is what you call it. "Helping". Cute.
"Staying in your lane" is the exact opposite of what Christians and Muslims are explicitly ordered to do. Convert acquisition is the primary objective of both faiths.
The Bible says if a family member considers another religion (or you just suspect they are) it's your duty to God to kill them before it spreads to other people in your family.
It's why ill never trust the people who claim they have to follow the bible literally. Either they don't know what it says, or they're absolute psychos.
Edit:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2013:6-10&version=KJV
6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
7 Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth;
8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage
Well, I heard somewhere that it is written in the bible that those who scorn the bible will be visited by apocalypse, fire, earthquake, and flood which will obliterate your cities, but for those who believe in the bible will save themselves and find true redemption.
And I also heard somewhere it may have also stated in the Bible that the power and the greatness of God cannot be denied. Those who reject the Path to enlightenment must be destroyed.
Quote from the Bible?
It talks to Jews in ancient Israel about gods of nations that surrounded them.
Oh...
So some of it is outdated and we shouldn't follow the bible literally?
I already don't, you better go tell the Christians to shut the fuck up about LGBTQ...
Good job on discovering dispensationalism. About LGBT, there isn't a single place in Bible, old or new testament where isn't put in a positive light
About LGBT, there isn’t a single place in Bible, old or new testament where isn’t put in a positive light
It's hard to tell what you were trying to say, but any attempt to clarify that is going to make it really easy to point out how wrong you are.
So I don't expect you to even try
Btw:
For anyone wondering what "dispensationalism" means, it's a thing Christians invented so they can ignore the parts of the bible that they don't agree with. While saying the parts they do believe in are the literal words of God and have to be followed.
It's a shitty cop out
About LGBT, there isn’t a single place in Bible, old or new testament where isn’t put in a positive light
That's just simple not true.
In the old testament it says that all homosexuals must be killed, and in the new testament that homosexuals cannot go to heaven.
How is that a positive light?
The Bible does not say that. What.
Exactly this.
Dont forget the part about having as many children as possible and convert them too.
There is no religion telling their servants to love their children even if they are not religious.
Honestly while I get that the whole "you do you" mantra is the politically appropriate line these days...
No, I'm fucking not ok with people practicing their religions.
I'm really not ok with people telling their children that it's not only possible for dead bodies to get back up and float up into the sky, but that it 100% happened and is the only reason they aren't going to suffer eternally.
I'll not ok with getting together to talk about how men are inherently better than women and that it was fine that an old dude raped a 9 year old because she was mature for her age.
I'm not ok with passing along the instructions that who your parents were defines an appropriate social caste for the rest of your life based on the supposed mechanics of resurrection.
These are not appropriate things for a modern society, and honestly I'm tired of pretending that it is fine.
Yes, I think the right to have the government not interfere in religion is important, but that's a separate issue from whether or not I'm 'fine' with the superstitions from an age when people peed on their hands to clean them continuing to be given a social pass purely out of respect for ancestral tradition.
The thing is the whole purpose of religion is to force beliefs into others to attract them into the religion and make them pay money. THAT'S LITERALLY WHY RELIGIONS WERE INVENTED.
There is no "Im religious but I let other live their lifes." They are constantly being told to invite friends and family to convert them and to have 10 children, so the children can be converted too.
I wouldn't say I mind it but like seeing someone passed out from drug use I would rather they didn't do that.
They need to start paying taxes too. Church is a business of graft.
I am a Christian and am willing to throw myself into the ring.
I think we deserve all the hate we are receiving and more. I am a firm believer of the separation of church and state, because I actually have studied the history of that phrase, and I know Christians wrote it in blood.
Very little of that matters though, because the balance of power has been shifted too much into our area.
We were supposed to minister to people, wash people's feet, love their neighbor.
Christian's were supposed to be servants of our communities, and instead we became the rulers. Instead of showing compassion and understanding, we are tyrants with no passion, logic, or understanding for our fellow people.
Just the love of Money. "In God we Trust"
There will be a power shift back, and I don't think Christian's are ready for the blow-back. But I will say, we will deserve it, for we have become vile tyrants.
Moore [a former Evangelical leader] told NPR in an interview released Tuesday that multiple pastors had told him they would quote the Sermon on the Mount, specifically the part that says to “turn the other cheek,” when preaching. Someone would come up after the service and ask, “Where did you get those liberal talking points?”
“What was alarming to me is that in most of these scenarios, when the pastor would say, ‘I’m literally quoting Jesus Christ,’ the response would not be, ‘I apologize.’ The response would be, ‘Yes, but that doesn’t work anymore. That’s weak,’” Moore said. “When we get to the point where the teachings of Jesus himself are seen as subversive to us, then we’re in a crisis.”
Moore said he thinks a large part of the issue is how divisive U.S. politics are, which is now spilling over into the church. He pointed to how a lot of issues are “packaged in terms of existential threat,” leading to the belief among everyone, not just evangelical Christians, that “desperate times call for desperate measures.”
https://newrepublic.com/post/174950/christianity-today-editor-evangelicals-call-jesus-liberal-weak
“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
― Mahatma Gandhi
this is insane
Best response would be to say they might just not be Christian enough
I personally hope Christians use the blowback as a way to reconnect to the core principles of their faith and reflect on the precepts of radical kindness at the core of Jesus's teachings. I feel very fortunate that my family drifted wide from religion back in my Grandparents day. I grew up an outcast in my wider community but there was never any question we were loved.
A lot of people who joined our open family did so with a lot of baggage. Families that figured them as failures for not living up to expectations or who had some kind of isolating pain their religion told them they basically deserved. It made me feel rich in a way so many were poor just being cherished by my family for being unreservedly me. It becomes an armour that makes me very resilient.
Being queer I see a lot of the people I know deal with this broken part of them, this rejection that who they are is not loved by the people for whom our society posits their natural attachments should entitle them love... and am able to be there for them. A lot of those who flee from religion do so as true refugees. They have to build from nothing. The reason queer communities are tight knit is because they realize that people can't exist without some kind of family and if you don't have one you make one from scratch.
A lot of the people in this position don't nessisarily hate the religion but they intimately know what it has taken from them. When your neighbours love you more than your family your neighbours become your family.
Being queer I see a lot of the people I know deal with this broken part of them
A lot of those who flee from religion do so as true refugees
This is what I fear most. But it happens every day. Most Christian's paths don't start until they leave the church and most never do.
The reason queer communities are tight knit is because they realize that people can’t exist without some kind of family and if you don’t have one you make one from scratch.
I am glad to read this. Communities are a big part of growth. I think the modern Christianity lost that bit somewhere along the way.
I personally hope Christians use the blowback as a way to reconnect to the core principles of their faith and reflect on the precepts of radical kindness at the core of Jesus’s teachings.
They will, the problem is it will take time. I just wish we didn't have to hurt everyone seeking that growth.
In many ways queer culture is sort of a radically inclusive space informed by decades of response and radical fighting against the forces of trauma. Drag Queen's have lineages of Mothers and Daughters, Drag Kings tend to form packs to perform. Queer events hold barbeques and brunches, create taverns and diners where queer culture is passed between generations as a way to keep old lessons alive and give people safe places to go to ask whatever they need. It is a community of outcasts who decided that the world needed less outcasts.
Here in Vancouver the last time I went to a drag event the Queens were advising everyone to keep more cash on them because homeless people often could not access free places to cool down to keep them safe in extreme heat events. Radical inclusion and the willingness to see flawed people as humans is one of the queer community's strengths. It's often paired with a lot of black humour and silliness but the core of the thing sometimes make me think that but for the lack of emphasis on spiritual belief there's a lot of underlying philosophy that Jesus probably wouldn't be too upset about.
I mean, you threw yourself in here, so I feel this is fair game...
Listen, while I certainly respect some of the concessions you are making here in acknowledging the issues with the broader issues of modern Christianity, at a very fundamental level the core beliefs are problematic for a modern society.
My guess is that you believe a dead body came back to life and floated up into the sky.
In part, I make this assumption because Paul effectively mandated this as a litmus test in 1 Cor 15 in response to Christians at the time who rejected that belief.
So you believe that things outside the scope of what is naturally possible has occurred.
This is then tied to a belief of inherent unworthiness such that without this event having occurred, you are somehow deserving of suffering and it is only through this event that you could have avoided such a fate.
You were most likely fed these beliefs as a child - beliefs people in the first generation after Jesus weren't even all that keen on - and you will likely continue to pass them along generationally.
The entire time effectively ignoring that the version of Christianity which survived was simply the one that had successfully adapted beliefs in line with supporting authoritarianism of the Roman monarchy, of slavery, and of financing the organization out of the pockets of its members, etc - ideas that I'm skeptical you'd end up endorsing if they were positioned to you on their own, and are each beliefs that can be individually challenged on their connection to a historical Jesus in the first place.
So the social exchange of even a "good Christianity" minus the worst parts of today's oversteps is still one in which children are raised to believe in magic, in their inherent unworthiness without the religion, of continuing on outdated and obsolete social norms and practices, and on preserving ideas that benefit authoritarianism.
Much as I think you'd probably agree it wouldn't be good for people growing up in a world of science and technology to be indoctrinated with beliefs about Muhammad having been able to split the moon in half or a belief that the universe is in fact the dream of a giant turtle, beliefs that you yourself subscribe to happen to run counter to everything from an evidenced based approach to understanding the world and our place in it.
Christian certainty in their beliefs led to suppression of ideas ranging from the notion matter was made up of indivisible parts (atomism) to the idea life that existed around us was not from intelligent design but simply based on what survived to reproduce and what did not - both ideas present and broadly discussed in Jesus's day.
With all due respect for the freedom to have faith in something, at a certain point faith should not be put on a pedestal over evidence backed evaluations and it is necessary to let go of the past in order to embrace the future.
Fellow Christian here, well said! I am so sickened by Christmas who want to use the government to force their beliefs on everyone else.
Name checks out.
Luckily there are no Christian babies to abort
Isn't there at least one sect out there that believes in "Christian while a fetus"? There are so many denominations it's hard to tell. I just had a quick look at the wiki page on original sin and at least the LDS people believe there's no need for children under 8 to be baptized, though I'm not sure if that means the kids are LDS while younger than that (or fetal). There was a bit about some Quakers rejecting original sin as well, but again I'm not too sure of the implications.
Technically correct is the best kind of correct!
I've heard about the "rise of the nones" for fucking years now. I'm in my mid 30s. When the fuck will this trend translate into policy reform
When the all 80+ year olds in congress retire die out
Yep.
Doesn't matter how religious voters are when the options are both hardcore Christian.
Like, Biden not being actively anti-abortion was enough to get American bishops to start talking if they should try and get every Catholic church in America to refuse to give him communion.
He's still not really pro-abortion, and we'll never really know if that's because his incredibly organized church is against it, or if he just doesn't care enough to push for codifying abortion rights.
He's the most high profile because he's president, but lots of House Reps and Senators are in the same boat.
Organising nones is like herding cats. The evangelicals do not get their power from their number. They vote uniformly and reliably, turning out for every primary, local, and federal election.
We are a diverse bunch with diverse opinions.
I've been a none for a bit now, and often find myself disagreeing with the opinions of others. I also tend to be more centrist in my political leanings, whereas a lot (obviously not all) of nones or atheists tend to lean left, or in some cases are extreme leftists. In my opinion, extreme leftists are as harmful to society as the extreme right, but that's a pretty unpopular opinion online.
Long story short, I agree with you on this.
The moment we start voting
For religious grifter owned by corporations number 1, or religious grifter owned by corporations number 2?
Rather cynical take.
I prefer the term realistic
Have you looked at the age of the average politician? It'll change when they all die of old age and someone sensible from the younger generation takes over.
my concern is that they seem to have indoctrinated or allied with enough young people that i'm no longer certain it will matter.
Why is this take so popular? What do you think will happen when every politician of today is dead or retired? They’ll just be replaced with a new generation of mostly older people, who more importantly are there to serve their corporate masters.
If you really think it’s about age, let’s try your country’s legislative body but every politician is a Marjorie Taylor Greene clone
When the nones outnumber the religious which is still a while away.
Around the time the majority of our lawmakers learned about the Vietnam war in a history book.
This is a question of attrition. Religiosity is dying out and so, in a sense, is neo-conservativism, and that’s why there is such a huge push to the right in many parts of the world. It’s the last desperate gasp of people who know that their time is up. They are doing everything they can to stop it from happening but it’s inevitable.
The problem is that as moderate critical thinkers leave religious organizations the organizations are becoming more polarized by the foolhardy remnants which leads to large organizational efforts to do stupid nonsensical things.
Instead of having anti lgbt protests, or anti abortion protests, we should really start having anti religion protests. They are really a cancer to society.
I think the only thing we lose is community -- I'm jealous that religious people automatically have that.
The solution of course is trying to return to having neighborhood communities.
Join a bowling league.
Do anything every week with the same group and you'll establish that same community...but without the grifting and shaming.
Instructions unclear, now stuck in MLM organization with grifting and shaming. :D
10/10 can confirm though it was Friday Magic Night for me.
But I'm introverted and my hobbies are video games :c
Exactly I started playing pool at a local hall right by my house. Great way of meeting new people.
Getting out and doing stuff in public is a great way of communicating.
Sounds great, but the local bowling alley in my rural redneck town was just sold and converted to a community church. 🫤
Go bowl down the isle of that church.
Not like they need it on any day except Sundays.
Actually, I quite like the idea of secretly setting up some pins and rolling the ball down the aisle on a Sunday.
Love the idea here, but I wonder if there could be an alternative to religion/churches that still allows us to congregate and deliberate about meaningful, philosophical affairs that religion poked and prodded at.
I know The Satanic Temple seeks to do this in a way, but I wonder if our universities and colleges held more opportunities to engage with the general public on meta/physics, epistemology, ethics, etc., topics also challenged by religion, we might fill the rational void people might be seeking.
You're outta your element Donnie!
I'm telling you from experience that their "community" is fake. The people are fake. Under the fake stuff that looks nice on the outside is a deep culture of judgment and shame and fear. It's not any community I would ever want. Like family get together for family's that hate each other but they fake it.
To those who will try to tell me "well not ME or MY church." I don't care and I don't believe you. I have been harmed too much too consistently by these groups.
Yeah I guess there's an inherent danger with a community where going against groupthink is a sin
Like posting an unpopular opinion on Reddit or Lemmy. You'll get down voted to hell if your opinion differs from the majority in that sub.
That's just unpopular opinions, and I've made plenty of those before. It's very different from doing something that my community thinks is a cosmic sin that will send me to hell.
I'm struggling to see how it's different. Could you iterate a bit more? I'm a bit slow but I like learning :(
Of course. It's the nature of the disagreement. And unpopular opinion about random topics is just an unpopular opinion. People will see me as an idiot, ignorant, or stupid. They may think I have questionable morals or priorities. But that's it. I'm just another stupid person on the Internet. I can have some of these disagreements with friends where I have an unpopular opinion, but depending on the severity it's inconsequential.
With a sin though, I've done something that goes against God's word and rules. If I don't ask for forgiveness, I will be eternally punished for it. Disagreements here are disagreements on what God says, which is heresy.
Does that make more sense?
There are for sure exceptions to this. But by and large this is absolutely spot on in my experience. It feels like getting together with paid actors that are hired to be your friend or sell you sometime in the end sometimes.
Under the fake stuff that looks nice on the outside is a deep culture of judgment and shame and fear.
Funny, that's what Christianity seems to be mostly about anyway.
Not really. Only God has a right to judge us.
Try Humanism. Find your local chapter. Its the community of "church" without the need for god(s)
The solution could be more rooted in philosophy too, but it's been a long time, at least since the time of the Greeks or Romans, since we've had Schools dedicated to the deliberation of meta/physics, ethics, epistemology, etc.
And I'm not talking about modern education here, the education that's meant to bring up the youth and develop them into functioning adults. The Greek/Roman Schools to me seemed like places of conversation, debate, etc. that anyone could join (I know that philosophy was mostly restricted to the aristocracy in ancient times, but that would be the goal today).
Maybe the answer is modern schools today, but with an effort to host local communities for thought discourse. Maybe it would look like wrapping together TED Talks with the minds of debates you see in New York that are like full blown events.
And maybe universities do deliver this kind of activity for their community that I nor you have access to because they're not near us. Dunno.
I think another aspect to consider is that after the pandemic, multigenerational homes have become more common. There could be a really great sense of community in having a bunch of large families raise their children as a village.
Ah yes, that sense of 'community' that only manifests when they all sit in their church, and vanishes the moment they all get back home.
I get more of a sense of community out of my model railway forums and my live steam club.
They really don't. I grew up Evangelical, trust me, community was the last thing on those people's minds. Granted, I understand where you're coming from; there should be more communal spaces that don't have religion as a requirement.
I used to have that really common thought of "I don't care what you believe in. Just don't try to push your opinion on me."
No. It's bullshit.
The very existence of religion is a psychological drain on society. We are all worse off the longer it stays around. There is no such thing as a good religious person and anyone who says they are religious I immediately distrust.
I don't mind organized religion. What I do hate is that religion pushing their beliefs onto everyone they meet, pushing their religion beliefs throughout school systems, etc. If religious can keep to themselves, I see it like yoga or CrossFit.
All I want is separation of church and state, like it's supposed to be.
Even according to Jesus
Jesus is a real G compared to supply side right wing Jesus. If he ever does return, we'll kill him again because he won't be relatable to the rich.
Even if that dude were to return, he'd take one look at the modern day Pharisees his followers have become and think of the adage "burn me once, shame on you, burn me twice, shame on me" and keep his mouth shut this time around.
It turns out that no, in fact there was no one with two good ears in the crowd after all, and only a fool would make that mistake twice.
If Jesus ever does come back, he won't last ten minutes before they nail him to the cross again. Today's Christianity is so far out of step with his supposed teachings, they might as well exist in different universes.
Or, you know, we could just ditch the church part entirely. Playing pretend about your favorite book is okay as a hobby I guess, but it doesn't deserve government sanction or protection.
I say this as someone who went to religious school until 9th grade, and was deeply involved in church through 12th grade.
Read charitably, the Christian Bible is a bunch of fantasy role-playing bullshit. Read realistically, anything not attributed directly to Jesus is a bunch of pedantic repressive bullshit, with the occasional nice axiom thrown in ("grey hair is the splendor of the old" etc). The Apostle Paul, for example, was the original TCOT, and would be a megachurch pastor today. He just loved telling everyone how to live.
Jesus - if he actually existed - went into temples with a whip and literally started flipping tables. Today, he'd be exiled from the church his followers founded because he's too "liberal" and "weak."
Religion, and in particular the vast cult of that is American Evangelical Christianity, has no place in the modern world. If there is a God, they only take us further from him. It's a tax-free business built on graft and hatred, which they relabel as "tolerance" and "love."
Cut off the tax-exempt status of any church or ministry that speaks to a political end (e.g. "Julie Green Ministries"). If they're really that altruistic and pure of heart with clarity of purpose, it shouldn't stop their mission.
There is nothing special about expert knowledge in the fantasy world of the 1st and 2nd centuries. Theology is strictly a study of invented bullshit, with the aim of subjugating others. Even majoring in Harry Potter or the Star Wars Expanded Universe would be of greater benefit to society.
Religion has no positive use.
“Never do business with a religious son-of-a-bitch. His word ain't worth a shit -- not with the Good Lord telling him how to fuck you on the deal.”
― William S. Burroughs
When your congregation are loud bigots, racists, and assholes, or when your clergy fuck kids and cover it up, or when the religion as a whole surpresses or hates certain genders or sexualities... This is not a surprising trend at all to anyone reasonable.
I really cant wrap my head that religion still exist in this age. Like we have mass destruction weapons, rockets that go beyond earth, have proof of how vast the universe is and then what we fight over is how some God has dictated our life to be.
It's so dumb and pretentious. Like nobody knows why we're here, if there is a creator or not, what happens when we die, etc. Religious people act like they really have the answers to these when they are so comically wrong and fooled by people pulling stuff out of their ass.
Then, on top of that, to deny all of the things we have actually figured out about our universe and our place in it, the things we have actually observed. It's a plague on humanity, stifling our progress.
Yes. Exactly 💯.
If the god was so powerful, where was he during CoVID? Why didnt the holy water treat COVID?
"GoD aCtS iN mIsTiRiOuS wAyS"
aka: Sky daddy doesn't exist.
The only purpose religion serves is copium for people who can't face reality/don't want to think, and exploitation of power. If God existed and gave a shit, it would be clear, but it's so obviously man-made to anyone who wasn't brainwashed to be religious.
Every time I think about the fact that the belief that a dead body came back to life, floated up into the sky, and is expected to float back down at the end of the world isn't considered to be a psychotic delusion because it's so commonplace as to be normative I feel like I'm on crazy pills.
How?
How the heck do we live in an age of measuring how long it takes for light to cross a hydrogen atom, of seeing the complete observable universe, of building our own virtual universes - and yet intelligent people who are aware of or even involved in such efforts genuinely think magic is real?
I get that there's a lot of people who just don't have a good grasp on reality and think lizards running world governments is somehow a probable explanation for the state of things, but the part that destroys a bit of my soul is seeing people who clearly should know better but don't.
How are we supposed to collectively solve real problems when so many are unwilling to come face to face with what is actually real?
Yup. Like how we tell kids there are no ghosts, we should tell me there is no God.
Well, at very least "there's no objective evidence for either ghosts or God."
100%.
I have that same problem with meat eaters too. How is it possible that we know we are brutally mass breeding and killing animals for food we don't need, is fucking up the planet and isn't all that healthy either, while at the same time also pretending to be civilized human beings that care about animals and the climare. And every time I raise the issue people make the dumbest excuses I have heard a thousand times...
People, once brainwashed into a way of thinking and behaving, can just be really hard to change even if you have all the arguments on your side.
I have the same problem with monarchy. The only thing that disturbs me more than the existence of royals with their archaic rituals and inbred lines of succession is the fact that there are so many people who love that shit.
Monarchies are also deeply intertwined with religion, which makes it extra problematic.
I read a really interesting book called How Minds Change: The Surprising Science of Belief, Opinion, and Persuasion, and the author made some very interesting points.
It takes a seismic change in perspectives to change closely-held beliefs that are intertwined with our identities. I grew up as a devout Christian in an extremely conservative protestent young-earth-creationist denomination. I spent my Sundays and Wednesdays listening to the values preached from the pulpit: love, humility, repentance, understanding, protecting the vulnerable, meekness, charity, and unconditional love.
However, these same people when outside of church would spew tirades about "the gays", how poor people are just lazy, and how prayer wasn't allowed in school anymore. The love that was exalted above all other values on Sunday was just a platitude to give cover to hateful grievance.
And that was almost thirty years ago; they've only gotten worse. That's why people are abandoning religion in droves. The values that they sell are not aligned with the actual values of their congregants. Like the old Jim Croce song, their philosophy is "Let him live in freedom - if he lives like me."
Furthermore, losing one's religion nowadays is not the social exile it once was. People have support structures outside of organized religion. It's one of the reasons that Evangelical churches are so against a social safety net: it keeps the excommunicated from crawling back.
People have support structures outside of organized religion.
I agree with you overall, but do not agree with this point. There are very few non-commercial support structures in America for adults outside of organized religion, and even some of them (e.g. AA) are somewhat religious in nature.
I think they meant outside friends and family
Growing up in a super religious family and watching all the nonsense up close is why I’m an atheist today. SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE MOTHERFUCKERS
Hail Satan and donate to your local Satanic temple
Also grew up in a super religious family (homeschooled pk) and joined TST 4 years ago.
IMO brainwashing children from the time they're born into a religion that spreads hate is wrong.
So there is The Satanic Temple which advocates for reproductive rights and separation of church and state and the Church of Satan which seems like some edgelord nihilistic thing.
But! I'm doing some googling and it seems that TSTs founder may be a Nazi. Like, an actual in love with Hitler Nazi. Reddit thread here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/rabm/comments/ujw6w2/whats_everyones_take_on_the_tsts_lucien_greaves/
Ya, I looked at several articles and Greaves seems very sketchy. Some of their chapters have broken off and a few of the top activists have distanced themselves from him. Sucks, I thought they were cool but the fact that their finances are closed and they try to host orgies for "real satanists"(wut) puts me off a lot.
Not that I could find with a quick search. I did find a "satanic forum" that seemed to be so populated by nazis that they were saying he wasn't enough of a nazi for them.
Religion is cancer.
The older I get the more angry the concept of God makes me. It's hit the point where I hope I'm wrong, so when I die I can spit in his face and call Him a useless God
Religious orgs are cancer, they also steal tax dollars by avoiding taxes, corrupt organizations and their mansions
Proud to be in the statistic! Jesus freak to agnostic and very anti organized religion. Glad I got away from religion, I didn't realize what a drain on my life it was until I got out. I'm upset at the years I wasted, but live and learn I guess!
I'm with you. It was scary at first but quite liberating.
I feel you. Escaping a fatih is one hell of an experience, but so liberating when you can finally see if for what it is.
Organized religion is a poison masquerading as a cure. The opium of the people as it were. I will never cause trouble for a religious person who doesn't cause trouble for others, but organized religion I can not abide.
I always thought that the success of Religion boiled down to two things:
- It provides an explanation for what for many would otherwise be a terrifyingly chaotic random World. When faced with great tragedy (especially personal), "it was the will of Deity" is emotionally more easy than the terror and meaninglessness of it something like the death of somebody close having happenned purelly by random chance.
- It's a social network and support group which brings all sorts of advantages, not just materially but even emotionally.
all religions are based on lies and fairy tales
One of the least spiritual things you can do is go sit on a pew and listen to a boring person talk.
Though it is a great way to catch up on sleep! Back when I was a "true believer" a lifetime ago I used to catch some serious Z's during a sermon, because even then I realized that the way sermons work requires an inaccurate view of the Bible as a cohesive work rather than an internally inconsistent anthology. Had there been an iota of academic or historical rigor I might have taken longer to become an atheist. But actual church history is anathema to faith, which is why pastors have to pretend the text speaks for itself and is timeless, rather than a collection of texts representing the thoughts of various groups, some of which were almost certainly diametrically opposed to each other (e.g., even the so-called synoptic gospels present vastly different conceptions of the "point" of Jesus, if you have eyes to see).
I actually really enjoyed that part when I was a young Agnostic at a private religious school.
I wouldn't actively participate in services, but was required to be there, and the sermons were pretty neat in truth.
Honestly I think if society got together on a weekly basis to listen to discussions on ethics and mortality without the supernatural BS it wouldn't be a bad idea at all.
It's the supernatural part that's super fucked up, and the guilt tripping. And the concept of inherent sin and unworthiness. And the authoritarianism. And the discouraging of critical thinking.
But the talks about the nature of the human experience and interdependency of society aren't that bad at all.
Of all the things organised religion promotes, being spiritual is very fucking far down the list.
Not growing fast enough, sadly.
And I say this as one of them.
people identifying as irrelegious has grown from 5% to 30% in the past 50 years, but some skeptics say, like with left-handedness, LGBTQ+, trans folks, the actual number hasn't changed, just the reporting and the stigma around identifying as such has.
Honestly, from the people I've talked to in the furry community, there have been a few of them who are either A) still christian (though often with unorthodox views on what "sin" is, or what is required for someone to be "saved") or B) hold christian beliefs and believe that Jesus is a good role model (as he's portrayed in the "canon" biblical texts).
However, if you asked them point blank if they're religious they'd probably give you answers ranging from, "hell no" to "eh, kinda" or "it's complicated". All of them have expressed some level of distaste for organized religion though, which I agree with.
Imo religion's fine so long as you're using your brain and you aren't hurting others; we live in a fucked up world, if that's the drug you have to smoke to get through the day, then cool, go for it. However, everything starts going wrong when religion becomes organized.
Religion gave my family and the closed groups I was forced to be raised around excuses for all their abuse and desire to judge others. Religion is a core part of all my childhood abuse and trauma and my own adult issues. I have zero interaction with any of them anymore, and I cannot respect anyone who proselytizes in the slightest about anything.
In my lifetime, those who followed organized religion of many types are always those who are the meanest, most ruthless, judgmental critical assholes I have ever dealt with. They sure put on a good show, but I've seen who they truly are enough to spot it anymore. All bullshit. Excuses for liars to hide behind.
I have zeroninteraction with any of them anymore, and I cannot respect anyone who proselytizes in the slightest about anything.
Agreed, and this is coming from a religious person. I think people who proselytize are extremely misguided. I understand wanting other people to be a part of something that is such an important part of your life, but that's not the way to do it at all.
I was raised agnostic and became religious later. I couldn't have the relationship with my religion I do now if I was solicited by someone else to do it. You can't give someone that experience if they don't want it. All you can do is be nice to them and help them if they are genuinely interested.
Non-Religion is cool if you get used to it. 91% of all Germans are "Not practising any religion". On paper some 70% still are members of religious communities but otherwise we don't give a fuck and instead going to church we meet for beer and bretzel breakfast on sunday. We stopped being religious after two World Wars as God was never on our side. Now we ain't on his side either. Never been more happy.
Funny thing, officially Religion is part of school. But from what I remember it was more a history lesson. I remember every jewish and muslim holiday but not a single Christian Martyrer. Yes, around half of religious lessons at school was about other religions. Most likely because of selective memory - on holidays I could have beer and bretzel breakfast. Martyrers don't feed me.
Just don't forget that it wasn't easy for us to hem in religion. It's not like the churches were okay with becoming irrelevant. They got dragged into the age of enlightenment by their hair, kicking and screaming and fighting against progress with all their might. We tamed that tiger, but it still remembers its claws and it is still a dangerous beast.
Also please don't forget the huge amount of influence the churches still have on German politics. Public Broadcasting has representatives of the churches in their Broadcasting Councils, the two churches continue to be some of the biggest lobbying-groups with explicit offices connecting them directly to the government. You can't party and dance in the street on a Good Friday, Public broadcasting is not allowed to air "Monty Python's Life of Brian" on Good Friday, and even public screenings by secular groups are illegal.
misread your comment and thought you said that most people only went to church on Sundays for beer and bretzel breakfast. Was like, shit, I could get behind that religion.
Go back 50 years and that was what we did: Go to church for 30 Minutes and sing, then feast with beer, sausages and bretzels for 60 minutes.
Well, a hypothetical god not being on your side in WWI and especially WWII seems kinda warranted, no? That would be the kind of god you read about in the bibl.... Oh... ummm.. wait
My disconnect is when they consider Trump a saint, but then say Obama is a bad guy
Turns out that if you can convince people that unless they behave in a certain way and follow a specific set of rules, they'll be dropped into a burning lake of fire when they die, they are pretty easy to manipulate for political reasons.
But shouldn't the ones they worship also hold to that very same specific sets of rules?
"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God." [Mark 10:25]
I'm just here to remind everyone that DISORGANIZED religion is an option! Not that we want you to join us! Fuck that shit! Consult your pineal gland if you're so god damned determined! Mine is fucking busy!
My Discordianism is explicitly scienctific. There isn't a scientific theory or study or concept I'm aware of that is incompatible with my interpretation of Discordian teaching. Discordianism was initially developed by a computer scientist. Idk what disorganized religions you have experienced, but Discordianism has always been rooted in scientific thought. It was always intended to be a quantum physics compatible system of belief, a disruptive philosophical response to the disruptive scientific discoveries of the 20th century.
I'm happy to be a part of that demographic. My upbringing only contributed to my irreligiosity.
I probably wouldn't have lost my faith if I was t constantly called a commie socialist for espousing 'christian' values and wanting to help the less fortunate by the very people who instilled those very values into my moral code.
Anymore I'm just a non-denominational pagan because at least pagans aren't such raging goddamned hypocrites.
Supply side jesus is always one of the funniest figures to exist.
I prefer to call myself a heretic whenever in the presence of someone who really cares, it's fun seeing the reactions.
Check some social gospel, those folks are basically what happened when the socialists in America decided to start their own church with blackjack and hookers
I hope that as more of the world gets access to the Internet and information that more and more people will leave religions. When I was able to freely read the history of different religions and critical analysis by atheists it made my mind up fairly quickly.
We are all born atheists. Religion is the oddity.
We are all born as social animals predisposed to superstition. Religion is practically inevitable.
Ok so, here's the funny thing, there might actually be a neural disorder to blame for the original polytheistic religions that morphed into modern religions.
There is the phenomenon that some people have an internal narration while others don't, but there's a hypothetical phenomenon within that phenomenon where someone has the internal narration, but doesn't recognize the narrator as their own voice, but rather as an outside presence instructing them on what to do next.
First time I heard of this my mind immediately went to the evangelicals who swear up and down that they have a personal communicative relationship with God.
I had the narrator when I was a kid and even asked other people if they could hear the person talking, which creeped out my siblings occasionally. Fortunately grew out of that by presumably realizing that was myself talking to me.
IIRC this is the idea behind avatar therapy for folks with vivid hallucinations
"Growing out of it" by slowly taking more and more control over how the hallucinations behave until they're basically just a sensory extension of the internal monologue
Ok, but followers of Judaism and Islam do not believe in a "personal relationship" with God. In those religions only the prophets got instructions directly from God, everyone else has to read their respective holy books.
I think the God of Spinoza view is a good one to convey to people that want to hold onto something. To say that the whole of existence is the nature of reality is redundant, but that is the answer. We exist because that’s the way things work, so the boundaries of the whole system don’t require a personal deity. The system in a sense is the deity and that waters it down to nothing supernatural. The one thing that I can still get behind is the possibility of simulation theory, which would totally fuck everything up. It is a theory though and not a steadfast belief.
Not really.
Magical thinking and rationalizing randomness are very innate features of humanity (and most animals, I.e. Skinner's box).
Overcoming this is both a noble and difficult pursuit, and it's arguably more worthwhile to recognize this than to incorrectly assume that we'd fall into rationality by default.
We wouldn't. We didn't. And that's exactly why religion exists in the first place and remains so successful.
We need to actively work hard to be better.
I agree with your sentiment. The takeaway for me is that we are influenced by our environment. Our experience is one of learning through experimenting with our reality, so it does come down to what we are presented with. I was raised around a temple that my parents were very active in, but it was reform, so I could ask lots of questions. I was told the narrative, but was allowed to interrogate it a bit and pretty much had the rabbi provide the evidence against religion by asking the right questions and getting fair responses. Others don’t get this opportunity and are instead force-fed religion and told not to question it. I still remember the moment that it clicked for me that it was all a charade. I basically asked the rabbi that, if all life is lived now per Judaism and we don’t have the concept of heaven or hell, then why do we need to do these practices and he basically said to make us feel happier. I was pretty much like ok, I’d rather go to space camp then.
Yeah, it's like the Aristotle quote saying "give me a child until he's seven and I'll show you the man." Not a lot of people have much chance to choose beliefs as opposed to have had them thrust on them.
As an aside, your rabbi's answer was essentially the outlook of the Sadducees in antiquity. They believed that there was no afterlife and that God didn't care what people did or didn't do, and yet followed the religious laws because they saw the law itself as a gift from God.
But I'm inclined to agree, that space camp sounds much better, and perhaps if the Sadducees had space camp too they'd have taken a different stance on things.
In a thousand years, I wonder if humanity will be at war with itself because they can't agree if Luke Skywalker or Harry Potter is the true prophet in their version of creation mythology.
I just sorta invented my own idea of what makes sense spiritually and only bothered to share it in a setting where shit was already deep and spiritual/philosophical.
I kinda like just inventing random mythology too every so often, my favorite recent one is that whenever someone says "I love you" for the first time, a Unicorn is born, and because of that a huge chunk of unicorns are in fact born as one of a set of twins, because the first time one person says that is often followed up by the first time the person they're saying it to says it back to them.
Don't believe in any of it as a "this is how the world really works!" kinda thing, I just like telling stories that I feel like would fit in a kid's book.
This tracks closely with my own personal mythology that sheep when seen from a distance on a hillside are actually unicorns.
What happens when someone says " I hate you"?
Honey Badgers.
There is a reason unicorns don't exist my friend, do you really want to know?
the reason i am nonreligious is because i realized it is human made concept, it has nothing to do with my likes or dislikes of the organizations
If I’m going to follow a made up belief system I’ll just make up my own that’s fun and inspiring
For me it's because everyone made a big deal of having a "personal relationship" with God, but nobody was on the other end
This is why strive to keep my relationship with God purely sexual.
Nerevar, there you are. I have just started reading this Lemmy Post about Religion. What an intoxicating and grand waste of my time. Nerevar the only People that are happy without Religion are the Argonians, and you know as well as I, Dagot Ur(the god) how miserable these creatures are.
Not a single Dunmer in all of Morrowind would try to claim that they do not believe in god.
Yes Nerevar, i would kill them but that isn't the point.
I don't mind religion, it's the crazies that use their religion to push hate that are the problem.
most are just pedophile rings anyway.
Will not have anything to do with these hate groups.
I don't think people are interested in going to a place every Sunday and hearing about how they're going to hell.
Would you rather waste a few hours listening to an old pedophile tell you you're going to be tortured for eternity, or do literally anything else with your day off? Tough choice truly.
The time for organized religion to clean house and save themselves from being taken over by fascist child rapists is long past. Sucks to suck. Would be a silver lining in a sea of shit if I saw religion at least in America wither away and die in my lifetime.
is this the part where twenty somethings on the internet gather to exclaim loudly "I hate hypocrites too"?
then you should love jesus, because he hated religious hypocrites just as much as you do. In fact, it was those hypocrites who killed him.
If jesus returned today, he would be killed at a MAGA rally, probably.
i'm a christian in SPITE of the church, not because of it.
Your not gonna get a lot of love, but I hear you. Jesus is the enemy of modern Christianity.
this isn't about you
I'm not Christian but there are some good bits in the Christian Bible I'd be happy if more people followed. "pray in the closet" , the good Samaritan, and the sheep and the goats mostly.
Unfortunately a lot of people use religion as an excuse to be a huge asshole.
Religion is fine, it's religious people using it to abuse others that I really don't care for.
One of my favorite quotes from Farscape. (For reference, this is a human teenager interviewing a three eyed old lady alien that's part mystic and part crazy old lady.)
Bobby: Do religions hate each other where you come from?
Noranti: Oh, good heavens, no. Religions are grand, lofty ideas. Religious followers, now that's another story.
Bobby: Wars.
Noranti: Unspeakable.
Bobby: So we're not so different.
Noranti: That's nothing to be proud of.
Religion is not fine. It is holding our entire species back.
Religion is basically just “your own hypothesis on how the world works”. People in good faith would encourage progress to see if their hypothesis is correct, not hinder it for fear of being proven wrong.
So how does coathanger abortions and murdering homosexuals factor in?
Because people took the concept of religion and used it as justification for literally everything.
Hell, religion is supposed to be what you think, the whole concept of reading a millennia-old book about unverifiable facts and going “yup, that must be all true” is extremely weird.
What you are saying is not what I have seen in parts of the world with older ancestor worship rituals going on or what I have read about the history of religion.
There isn't some long lost golden age of grace it fell from.
I know, it’s been really bad from the start, but it’s not meant to be.
Just because you have a personal view on how the world works it doesn’t mean you have to force it down other people’s throats. You can be religious and just think “God exists, they work like this, this and that”, and act like a normal human being. It’s just that throughout history it’s been used as a tool for enforcing blanket “I know more than you, so you listen to me”.
Distinction without a difference imo.
raised in a southern baptist leaning midwestern area. grew to resent being lied to. recall one pastor who got caught cheating on wife. last straw when I found a big-wheel in mom&dad's closet a month before xmas. more lies
I was raised in church, and I would still call myself a 'spiritual' person. But church itself... it's just not it
we are no different than the bug that just splattered on the windshield. one second your brain is screaming "pull up!". The next next second, _________
I don't like organized anything. People who organize bully and financially dominate those who aren't.
Organised labour is an exception for me
Do you mean employment? I think employment is the worst of business because it's essentially a mode of control over the price of your efforts.
When a cat organizes all its turds by placing them in the same box, it's actually doing bullying because it knows you'll have to clean them all up anyway.
Heckin homonyms.
I'm in Dollywood in Tennessee and almost everybody is wearing T necklaces and/or faith shirts.. it's kinda weird (I'm from d.c. area). I expected to see more red hats but have not seen a single one.
Reject nonreligious communities, join the religious non-communities. Choose your flavour between anarcho-catholics, Sikhs of the woods, or feral Zoroastrians
Im not religous but am spiritual, I prefer to come to my own conclusions about certain things.
why
This is what a depressed society looks like.
I'm curious what the overlap between the growing number of atheists and regular users of Lemmy, because I'm not sure if the comments on this article being so one sided towards atheism is a product of Lemmy users being primarily atheists or if religious people don't feel comfortable sharing an opposing view. I'd love to hear a counter perspective, but as an atheist myself I'm not the person to start that conversation. I will say that society functions most properly when the majority of people hold similar views about most issues, when the Overton window is smaller, and religion historically has been a reliable tool for aligning people in that sense. It seems more challenging to me to be a kid these days, in the sense that kids are presented with so many choices for "good" that it seems harder to choose values. I'm not a fan of religion, but it's worth calling out that moving away from organized religion en masse does come with some societal costs.
I will say that society functions most properly when the majority of people hold similar views about most issues, when the Overton window is smaller, and religion historically has been a reliable tool for aligning people in that sense.
I find it very interesting that you omit any specification on the quality of those views. Religious views, paired with the socio-political power of religion, have also historically "otherized" non-believers, at best ostracizing them from their communities solely on that basis, sometimes to the point of torture and murder. I don't find that to be "society function[ing] most properly."
Your position seems condescending to me.
It sounds like you want religion to constrain other people's worldviews, but as an atheist you don't want to be constrained by it yourself.
Not trying to put words in your mouth, but that's how it comes across.
Rules for thee and not for me.
If you are missing groupthink I am sure you can find it other places besides for in religion.
Please show me multiple peer reviewed studies backing up your claiming that society (whatever the fuck that is) functions better when everyone thinks exactly the same.
I'm Christian and usually stay out of these discussions because it's a waste of time to try to change anybody's mind here, and anything I say sounds like "not all Christians" anyway. I can do without the hate and contempt in my inbox.
Hey, if it makes you happy and you don't swing it around in front of my face: you have my blessing.
As a religious person in one of the top three most hated organized religions in the United States, I've found most of the anti-theist commentary about my religion to be highly ignorant. In the Fediverse, it's cool to hate on religions and religious people (especially members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints), but nobody seems to be interested in doing any due diligence before spewing their hate. I couldn't number how many times I've been told what I believe (like, what?), usually something weird and outlandish or a century out of date.
Tl;dr anti-theist rhetoric in the Fediverse tends to be highly ignorant and hateful bigotry, not the enlightened discussion one would expect from people so, well, "enlightened".
maybe because they have their own opinion but aren't interested in acting like everyone has to share it?
I wasn't aware I cared what kind of people you like to be around
I don't belong to any organized religion, I'm a democrat. Wait, that isn't how that goes...
And at the same rate, politics and "science" are becoming disorganised religion. I see many similarities in behaviours. It's just swapping one form of religion for another at this point.
Politics, maybe, but how is science a religion?
It isn't.
Some believe in pseudoscience, but that isn't science (hence the "pseudo" in the name)
I'll take a stab at this one. A lot of educated people stop thinking the second they see a study that confirms what they believe. It is the anthesis of what science is supposed to be, examined constantly. But people intertwine their ideological framework with science and pick and choose which studies they believe and which they don't. For some people, their belief in science is indistinguishable from someone else's belief in religion, and often nearly as harmful to society. There's tons of common knowledge rooted in science that turns out not to be true, but because of people's faith in science instead of skepticism, people will believe anything backed by science, irrespective of whether it's true. Laypeople have a hard time interpreting what they learn from science and remaining intellectually curious.
Even scientists can often be incredibly dogmatic. When Ignaz Semmelweis showed a mountain of evidence that washing your hands prevented passing infections to others he was ostracized by the medical community, despite there being way too much information showing he was right, he was ignored non the less. People tied their ideology and ego into believing he was wrong. Had people listened to Semmelweis sooner it could have saved countless of lives, some speculate millions. Semmelweis died from infection because the doctor treating him didn't wash their hands...
A lot of educated people stop thinking the second they see a study that confirms what they believe. It is the anthesis of what science is supposed to be, examined constantly.
Sure, that happens. But since it's science, there's evidence, with which you can show people like that that they are wrong. That doesn't exists with religions.
When Ignaz Semmelweis showed a mountain of evidence that washing your hands prevented passing infections to others he was ostracized by the medical community
And since it's like a religion, his warnings were never heeded as you cannot question religious rules. And so, still today, doctors don't wash their hands.
Oh wait...
Since it's science, the rules can be questioned and changed if they are not correct.
I think you're reading more into my comment than I said. To be clear, I'm not a fan of religion and do believe science is the route to knowledge. But it took an entire generation of scientists dying out to have washing hands normalized. Our society places faith and belief in science in a way that still mirrors religion even if it is more flexible.
Perhaps you're younger, I can tell you I've seen a massive shift in how science is seemingly manipulated and misrepresented to push political or idealogical ideas. In my opinion it's primarily to do with money and power. It could mostly be the media highlighting the worst and least reputable, however, you'd be surprised how much our perceptions and impressions of things can influence how we behave and feel on some things.
I can tell you I’ve seen a massive shift in how science is seemingly manipulated and misrepresented to push political or idealogical ideas.
Which ideas would those be?