- A collapse of American industry
- People being financially wiped out
- The opiod epidemic
- A general culture of greed and personal enrichment at all costs
- The ever increasing transfer of wealth to the top
- Closure of public mental health institutions
- relentless fearmongering media coverage guaranteeing that shitty people are constantly being made famous for their shitty behavior
Almost no mass shootings were carried out by someone with a serious mental illness. Almost all of them made a conscious decision to do what they did and made a plan to do it. They learned to do what they did from internet forums, news reports of other shootings, abhorrent "influencers," and the like, and they didn't do what they did impulsively or based on a psychotic though process. Psych hospitals and deinstitutionalization have nothing at all to do with mass shootings
On the other hand, I would posit that anyone who would perform a mass shooting is, by definition, mentally unwell, and the loss of mental health resources can only make things worse.
When you say "mentally unwell" though, how do you even define that? Psych hospitals are there to treat psychiatric conditions, eg schizophrenia, major depressive disorder, catatonia, borderline personality disorder, etc. Psych hospitals are not pre-crime units where you send someone who is going to commit a shooting.
By saying the mass shooting problem could be fixed by having more psych hospital beds or bringing back institutionalization means you think either of these would have stopped someone. There is an easy test here...how many mass shooters were sent to a psych hospital before they killed people, were treated for homicidal thoughts, and we're released due to deinstitutionalization? For how many mass shooters were their homicidal thoughts or plans known, but they didn't get help at all due to a lack of psych hospitals?
It really easy to dismiss people who commit crimes as automatically mentally ill, but the reality is almost none of them meet criteria for a mental illness. Instead they murdered people because they chose to, and they meet every definition of competent to stand trial after they do it.
This sort of narrative perpetuates the popular thinking that people with a mental illness are scary and dangerous when they actually commit violent crimes at a lower rate than the general population
Oh 100%, but I'm responding to someone who cited "the closure of public mental health institutions" as a reason for increased mass shootings, which I vehemently disagree with
I mean, there’s other kinds of public mental health institutions than full inpatient.
Why not have, say, a location with publicly-reimbursed psychiatrists and psychologists, where a person goes for an appointment?
That exists already here in Texas in our Mental Health Authority system, and if it exists in Texas I imagine it exists in other states
This is the weirdest blend of far right with a tiny sprinkle of far left I've ever seen.
Only a snowflake would see political affiliation in that list of deteriorating American problems! Don't worry, I won't let those mean facts hurt you...
Australian here. We had one really bad mass shooting and then our government (who was also one of the most conservative governments in the last 50 years) banned guns. Haven't had one since. Guns just aren't a thing here and we kind of think you're a weird country for being so obsessed with guns. I also personally think it's weird that guns are like the symbol of your freedom, yet you don't have universal healthcare. Universal healthcare offers so much more freedom than guns do.
In saying that a lot of countries have guns and don't have the same problem with mass shootings. What the US has is a cultural problem in terms of your relationship with guns and violence. Unfortunately, doing a mass shooting is now a normalised way to deal with your problems. Not all of you, obviously. But enough of you that it's gotten completely out of control. In Australia I don't think it was just the banning of guns that has reduced mass shootings. We have a culture in Australia of 'don't be a dickhead'. I think when we had our mass shooting we all collectively just said yeah nah mass shootings are next level dickhead behaviour.
We do have guns though, they are protected behind proper background checks and licences. And we dont fetishish them the same way many Yanks do. Definitely far fewer semi-auto and full auto guns though.
If you keep your eyes open, there are a number of gun shops around, often in quite unexpected locations. There is one near my local kebab shop, and its very subtle, so many people dont even notice it.
The Au and NZ experience with guns and pop culture vs the US is vastly different.
NZ is up there with gun ownership (in the top 20 per capita), but we have a very different culture around them, they are a hunting tool and not a misogynistic tool here. There was a bit of backlash with our last tightening of our laws - but to be frank, I got my licence after the law change with little difficulty, and who needs a semi auto AR style rifle other that those that can apply for for the appropriate licence?
Australian here, I'm literally less than ten metres away from 2 rifles and a shotgun. Used for pest control, which is mostly eaten cos rabbit and goat is delicious. Haven't been bold enough to eat a fox yet. But yeah, they're there. Have been visited by the cops a couple of times over the years to make sure they're appropriately stored. Hell, you can even get a handgun here. The kicker is, you have to be a member of a gun club, regularly compete in competitions through said gun club, and the gun has to be stored at said gun club (although it can be transported from gun club to another venue for competition). So, yeah, they're out there, but they're heavily controlled. And we actually had an Olympic shotgun shooter get in shit a while back cos his gun was improperly stored in his car between competition and home. Nobody wants what happened in Port Arthur to happen ever again. Kids fucking died. That's fucked. How America didn't do something after Sandy Hook absolutely blows my mind...
I hear you, I have 5 rifles about the same distance, locked in a safe. The bolts and ammo are both in seperate lock boxes and not stored with the firearms; the keys to all are not store with any normal keys.
I think Australia has about 15-20 firearms pr 100 people and New Zealand about 25-30 (depending on where you get the stats from), compare that to the US where it's above 150.
The whole culture around firearms is screwed there - you have senators posing for Christmas card photos with the whole family posing with a small arsenal of military firearms, or a guy guys caught on camera (clearly carrying side arms) saying "I feel threatened", in a power pose/alpha-male stance, while advancing on some other guy in a mall.
From here, on the outside, the whole US feels quite fucked; and it's not just gun violence...
The weird one for me is archery equipment. No licence, no checks, no storage requirement. And sure, you cant go on much of a spree, it still seems a bit odd that anyone can buy one. Crossbows are restricted though.
and the gun has to be stored at said gun club (although it can be transported from gun club to another venue for competition).
You don't have to store it at the club. It can be stored in your own premises. https://www.police.qld.gov.au/weapon-licensing/safe-storage-weapons-and-ammunition
Amazingly, there's more than one state in Australia, and they all have variances... As it is, I'm too tired to look into it and I was told this 10yrs ago, and I know requirements have change in this time so I acquiesce.
All good mate. Not calling you out or anything it is a complex topic and Qld is where I am so that is what I follow.
I'm not an expert in this stuff but my whole life I have been told to avoid eating mammals that primarily eat meat. Eating a fox just seems wrong, especially when there are so many good to eat rabbits.
Carnivores generally taste like shit. As it is, foxes are omnivores, leaning more towards vegetarianism. I'm still gonna give it a miss though.
Curious here. Just moved to a large acreage and have some 5 bears and about 10 wolfs that pose a risk to my dogs mainly. I grew up with guns so comfortable around them but had not really used one in twenty years. Now the laws require them locked up at all times but I literally need access in seconds. Have a few times have had to scare of the bears but it is the wolves that are my biggest concerns.
I can't really lock them up or more to the point is that they would have near zero value locked up. I can't imagine most farmers lock them up. What is the general idea around this?
Edit. Coyotes not wolfs.
Guns aren't the only things that deter wolves and bears. Sure, they do a great job at it, but they aren't the only tool you can employ.
Well I am deploying other options but not working that well. Just more curious what the ranch type guy that is using a rifle weekly if not daily does. Seperate lock up are not practical when you need them rapidly and at random times. I personally am for heavy gun regulation. Hand guns seem completely unneeded except for certain jobs and having more than say three rifles does not seem necessary. But in a farm or ranch situation, having them easily accessible is pretty important.
Amazingly, our famers do just fine here in Australia without easy access to guns...
They might not have 5 bears and 10 Coyotes in a small area. Not sure what you are getting at? I suspect some of them, particularly the ones with cattle and large area often travel around with rifles. They are a bit of a necessity but I don't suspect your much of an expert in that field. Looking for those that actually have more dangerous animals around they are dealing with daily or weekly.
Australia has predators, you donkey. And let's look at the rest of the world. They have farmers and bears and wolves too. Many of them lock away their guns. At the risk of repeating myself, there are other options besides guns for the very specific use case you provided. I know you just want to hear what you think is right, but you're asking the wrong person if you think I'm gonna do that.
I thought about poison but too likely a dog might get into it. Live traps are next best bet then they can be taken somewhere and shot safely. For bears the live traps are quite large so not so easy. Mind you not so worried about the bears. They run from even if small dogs. I am more concerned in the event where you need immediate access such as an attack. The Coyotes will come right up to the house but lucky the dogs have not been around or inside. They are crafty buggers so you pretty much need to be ready right then if you want to shoot them. Might just have to hunt them. We live right next to town and I know they have killed a few pets to date.
I suspect many with real wild animal issues do not lock their guns away although they may tell people they do. Curious how many people don't.
This may surprise you, but farmers, shepherds etc, all defended their animals just fine before the invention of guns. You're also making a lot of assumptions about others. But I guess that's okay in your mind cos it validates your fears. Maybe look into changing that.
And to be clear, I'm not anti gun. Like I said, I am near a handful of them. But your commenting on a 4 day old post the way you are just screams "please validate my tiny dick energy"...
To be sure there are ways to defend animals and large animals usually will protect their young. The majority of farmers with livestock have guns in Canada and few have any qualms of using them. We are not living in the stone age. Not sure what your problem is as I am curious what most are doing overall. I suspect most don't lock up not do I see it as a significant safety issue surrounding gun culture like there is in the US. I have never heard of a rancher going postal. Nearly all the mass shootings I can recall are from gun happy people that having nothing to do with ranch or farm type lifestyles. So not sure what your problem is unless you just like to be silly or argumentative or just a dink. Whatever. I am more worried about my smaller dogs. If I can kill them will do so but might have to hunt them down I suspect. Was hoping I could just take it the ones that approach the main yard but if hunting them, likely will have to kill them all as won't know who the nuisance ones are.
Yeah, this comment speaks volumes about who you are as a person. Normal people don't indiscriminately kill wildlife...
Well that is why I would rather just kill the ones that are aggressive and less fearful and would approach people houses. Now I understand why you were being goofy. Is not about gun safety as I was asking but think any killing of nuisance animals it's unwarranted. Not what I was asking but thanks for your input.
If it comes to the death of one of my dogs or some coyote that hangs around, my dogs will always come first. Sorry if you think that is not normal.
At the risk of restarting a dead thread, you're an idiot. We have issues with predators attacking livestock and pets here in Australia too. We still don't just have guns sitting out ready to be used at a moment's notice. Cos we're sane. This was literally my job for 5yrs after I left university. We had a massive checklist of shit to get through before we even resorted to guns. Why? Because guns solve nothing and cause great harm to the community. There are so many management techniques you could employ before going all yippee kiyay with your guns. Guns should always be a last resort. Proper management not only protects you and your pets, it also helps the local ecosystem. I'm sorry you're so narrow minded that you can't see the forest for the trees. You're all "I'll protect mine at whatever cost", which is the reason why America is so entrenched with guns and has the very real problems that they are facing every day with no reasonable resolution in sight.
American here. This is sadly very true and I find it unbelievably distressing. For me, after Sandy Hook happened (the mass shooting of over 20 elementary school aged children) and nothing changed, it became clear nothing would ever change. And I feel completely helpless about it. I used to be highly opposed to having a gun in my home but it’s gotten so bad that I’m starting to consider getting one for our safety…which pisses me the fuck off because then I feel like I’m forced to be part of the problem. I went to a big trick or treating Halloween event last weekend in a major part of town with lots of kids and adults, and in the back of my head I definitely had a little fear that this would be the kind of thing that would get shot up these days. It’s so far out of control, it’s so disgusting.
I actually don't blame you because I would feel the same way if I lived in America. I hate guns, but would feel the need to have a gun if I lived there. It seems like such a cycle of mutually assured destruction that just keeps escalating out of control.
Yeah indeed.
But if you require a gun to feel safe in your own country / home, you live in a shithole.
I don't think they're denying they live in a shithole. It's just that there's no easy way out.
I feel sorry that your home (town) feels so unsafe, I don't know how you (as a people/country) get somewhere back to 'normal'
My reaction was, instead of feeling hopeless, I've started to call for abolishing the Second Amendment. I'm done trying to compromise with people that care more about guns than children.
Being paranoid has that effect.
Except that when a revolution becomes necessary we will all be fucked. Citizen's most important duty is ensuring the State stays true to democracy
You're never going to fight in a revolution, and if you did you'd lose because you're not a good fighter.
This mindset is the primary reason we live in this world
I'd be the guy you're fighting a revolution against, so that's great to hear.
I don't want to tear my government asunder. I want to fix the few broken cogs in the machine.
Which country do you live in?
I'm aware that we live in different countries. My point is there's a lot of me, in every country.
I don't think you want another Reign of Terror followed by an Emperor, either.
This is exactly what leftists want (and right-wingers, but this is Lemmy).
Revolutions are fought with torches, pitchforks and guillotines.
Guns are far from necessary.
They had guns in 1789. That was the main reason they took the Bastille. Everything changed after that day
I'm french, we do not laugh about these things
So, do you have a hunting or an sporting shoot license for your guns? France laws are the same as the rest of the EU, guns are very controlled, people in Europe don't talk about guns as a means of revolution against the government. Unless you meant you're french in the way 'Muricas say they're Italian or Irish, i.e. they have a great grandfather that once passed through that country.
It's not something we discuss often, and none of us have guns. But we all feel extremely weak against the government which we all hate, and that openly violates the core principles enonciated when we created the republic. People are getting angry, but it's something that's still very new
Media coverage becoming a compounding factor.
There weren't many school shootings, and suddenly Columbine happened.
The thing is - Columbine wasn't really a school shooting.
It was a failed bombing. The shooting was to get everyone into the cafeteria where they'd set up barrel bombs which luckily didn't go off. In fact, the largest casualty attack in a US school remains a bombing from 1927.
As a school shooting, Columbine was also quite atypical, with two perpetrators.
But as soon as you now had what was really a failed bombing being covered by the news as a school shooting, suddenly thereafter were a ton of school shootings (that fit the normal archetype of a mass shooting with a lone perpetrator).
And each of those got a ton of coverage and the numbers of mass shootings went up yet again.
If you suddenly prohibited covering mass shootings in media (impossible because of the 1st amendment, but hypothetically), I am certain you'd see mass shootings drop by double digit numbers.
The fact that Columbine was so atypical of what events followed in its planning but was so close to what followed in how it was covered in the news tells a pretty damning story of the role of mass media in this phenomenon.
Also see:
Towers, S., Gomez-Lievano, A. Khan, M., et al. (2015). Contagion in Mass Killings and School Shootings. PLOS One. 10(7): e0117259. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0117259
Lankford, A and Tomek, S. (2017). Mass Killings in the United States from 2006 to 2013: Social Contagion or Random Clusters. The American Association of Suicidology. doi: 10.1111/sltb.12366
Thanks for citations!
As massive consumers of American news media that includes the extensive covering of mass shootings, I wonder what is keeping Canadians from a rise in shootings that is equally meteoric.
Coverage - since so much media comes from America - would seem to be the same, but the results are different.
Far from gun-avoidant, Canada boasts the longest rifle hit on a target, both for moving and stationary.
Cold weather, maybe?
Have you considered any of the underlying factors to such and how Canada might differ?
Access to guns. How many guns per person are in Canada vs in the US?
It's probably a combination of this and better access to mental health and social services.
It's almost entirely that.
When you have nearly no-one who wishes to commit such atrocities as a violent suicide, it doesn't matter what tools are available for the job.
And tbf Canadians don't exactly have a reputation as being violent individuals. I believe the stereorype is "Sorry eh."
Canada has fewer guns per person than the US, but still many more than most countries. I think there are a couple of other differences though. The types of guns are very different. Handguns are extremely restricted, and ownership is rare. Many (most?) semi auto rifles are either prohibited or restricted, and there are mag limits (5 rounds) for all centrefire rifles. This doesn't exactly prevent people from committing shootings, but a lot fewer people have those types of guns because they're kind of a pain in the ass get, store, and use. Safe storage is legally required, and much more encouraged by the gun-owning community.
The other factor might be what guns are used for in Canada. Concealed carry is practically non-existent, open carry is severely restricted, and while self-defence with a firearm is technically legal, ownership for that purpose pretty much isn't.
A weird fetish for guns and a completely unregulated gun lobby.
In Switzerland every male between 18 and 40 that hasn’t actively decided against it, has an assault riffle under their bed (for some that’s meant literally…). Althoughwe don’t let them have ammunition as well.
Anyway, you can buy guns here and people do. It’s just not that we think we need them to defend ourselves against the government (which judging by the power of the us military is totally ridiculous anyway). We also don’t allow you to carry it around, let alone loaded ones.
America is a ridiculous cesspool of stupidity, missed educational opportunities and weird, culty patriotism that guns are somehow a part of. The internet made it easier tk spread this and so conservatives have been more successful in spreading their crap around.
The US military hasn’t ever won an asymmetrical guerrilla war, so it’s not as absurd as you think. In that Instance, millions of people would likely die, but it’s still more likely that guerrillas survive for decades than it is the US wins.
The US has won against guerrillas before. They won in the Philippines and had mostly won in Iraq before the Iraqi government pissed off their Sunni minority and ISIS spilled over from Syria. The US also crushed the Viet Cong during the Tet Offensive and most of the war after that was fought by regular North Vietnamese Army units not VC guerrillas.
Most insurgencies fail Max Boot wrote a book called Invisible Armies where he analyzed insurgencies throughout the 20th century and determined that only about a quarter of them succeeded and more than half failed outright. Not only that, many of the successful ones took place in the context of colonization and the Cold Warz where they had weak imperial opponents, super power backers, or both.
Appreciate the book, I’ll give it a read, thank you!!
We the people so badly need to organize in the face of the threat of our own government. 🤦🤦🤦
It's also unlikely the US Military, being citizens of the United States themselves, would have a high degree of adherence to such orders to bomb and destroy their fellow man.
That anyone thinks such is realistic is indicative of the depth of delusion.
And this fact would be true regardless if their populations had guns or not, which means once again, the guns dont factor in all that much at success of resistance of government
Hollywood powered violence desensitization baby. The US army police force has bombed civilian cities in US soil. They were against black communities, but it has happened. No one in the chain of command even protested the order. Anything is possible when you have R A C I S M
EDIT: corrected the state security force involved, but the explosives were provided by the army.
I mean the US has a history of bombing city blocks from helicopters, commiting unethical human experimentation, both on individual people and by releasing poisonous agents into the air around their own cities and generally not being particular human rights focused with their own citizens.
Believing that the US army is above turning on their "fellow man" seems a bit optimistic to me.
The naivety there isn't so much that soldiers would be incapable of fighting the US citizenry in a large scale war, but more that the framing of the question is false to begin with. It's way easier for soldiers to commit small scale acts of terror than large scale genocides, and it's always easier to commit acts of terror on minorities or the "other" rather than on the gen pop. If we were to see any domestic american guerilla warfare (I find this kind of unlikely compared to the rising amount of lone wolf, stochastic incidents), then it's likely that even the regular population would get fed a ton of bullshit about the opposition being subhuman, or something to that effect. Larger scale versions of how, every time a black guy gets shot by the police, everyone trots out every encounter he's ever had with the police within like 12 hours of the incident. Character assassination, but at a group level, instead of on the individual level.
In the context of the Ukraine war i've read something akin to "once someone close to you, a fellow friend and comrade is killed, it is less about the original how and why, but just about revenge."
Using cult of personality, the in-group mentality that is strongly advanced in the military, dehumanising of the enemy and other tactics have shown very effective time and time again in human history. There is many countries in history and today, where the military is turned against its own population and i fail to see any moral highground the US could claim to protect against that. The US society is too hungry, too injust, too tribalist and too violent, for there to be effective safeguards. Heck we all saw what happened January 6
I think it's also more likely that the cops would be the main problem
My two pennies: We had a generation of people raised by baby boomers, people notorious for their inability to manage emotions, or empathize with different or morally ambiguous people. It's intergenerational trauma from such an upbringing, manifesting as mental illness and marked by delusions of grandeur, paranoia, victim mentality, and stunted emotional and social development. That, and obviously the proliferation of weapons has made mass murder accessible, and in the minds of some people as described above, acceptable.
Possibly also lead poisoning.
That, and obviously the proliferation of weapons has made mass murder accessible, and in the minds of some people as described above.
Are you under the impression such things were ever not accessible?
At what point did we start regularly testing and proving out water? When did we start ensuring school bake sale food must be store-bought? You seem incredibly short-sighted.
What kind of idiot point are you attempting and failing to make?
At what point did we start regularly testing and proving out water?
Flint, MI would like a word
I'm not sure what you're referring to as a "fetish" or an "unregulated" lobby. If you were referring to nonsense like the NRA and their fundraising efforts, you'd be obligated to highlight Everytown etc. and their blue-aligned fundraising. You can't point out a wedge issue and one side without recognizing the other side and its equivalent benefit.
If one has a clean criminal history, is a legal adult, and - in most states - has undergone some additional scrutiny or proof of proficiency, then sure - they can buy a firearm.
Given how Afghanistan turned out, I'm not sure how you think the concept of resisting the armed forces of a government as a distributed and well-armed populace is somehow unthinkable.
It's fair to say we've a cesspool of stupidity - but only due to our politicians continued neglect of actual underlying issues in favor of partisan wedge-driving and profiteering of the ad revenue of sensationalized violence.
It's also worth noting (though Lemmy is a horrible venue for discourse on the topic) that the prevalence of firearm ownership in the US is itself a function (likely an intended one, by the framers) of 2A.
So many of the measures that could, immediately or eventually, be used either directly or as a legal springboard, to move toward gun restrictions or confiscations see immediate and stiff resistance from the GOP, gun lobby, and most importantly big chunks of the population who are fun owners, who are basically given a personal stake and being incentivized to do so.
So many of the gun control measures being proposed would be dead on arrival due to the dual truths that guns are already widespread in the country and that many such laws would make criminals out of law abiding citizens. This makes it hard or impossible for them to gain any traction whatsoever.
While I agree that the "I need my guns for when the government turns on its people next week" crowd is delusional, I also feel that it's a chicken/egg situation: part of the reason why that's an unreasonable threat is because guns are so ubiquitous. The government doesn't even attempt to go down that rabbit hole partially because it's such an impossible feat.
I also think that while yes, that doomsday scenario isn't happening anytime soon, that it certainly could happen, after many decades of gradual change and gradual decline. And while personal gun ownership may not do much good against the government now, in the event that the course of the future took us down that dark route, personal firearms could very well do a private citizen a lot of good then in resisting any opponent, government or otherwise. But of course they wouldn't be able to get their guns back in that scenario if they allowed them to be taken away beforehand...and prevalence of ownership and political resistance is the best and easiest insurance against all of that.
the prevalence of firearm ownership in the US is itself a function (likely an intended one, by the framers) of 2A.
No, it was 100% intentional. All able bodied men below a certain age were legally obligated to muster with their local militia, and they were likewise legally obligated to provide their own firearm. The gov't had already granted itself the right to raise and equip an army, so the idea that 2A applies to the gov't being allowed to arm itself is patently ridiculous. No, the idea was that individuals would own firearms, and would undertake some form of training (or regulation) in their use, and that would make them fit for militia duty.
From that perspective, it's clear that the founders intended the people to have access to and own weapons fit for military service.
I agree that it's unlikely that the people should need arms to resist the gov't, buuuuuuuuuuut it's happened, and it's happened in recent memory. The Bundy clan had an armed standoff with the gov't in the 2010s over their illegal grazing on BLM land, and the gov't ended up being the ones to blink first. (Also, the Bundy's won in court over that; the gov't did some pretty egregiously illegal things, and te judge tossed the whole case out with prejudice.) You can also go back to standoffs and insurrections by Native Americans in the 70s, standoffs that the Native Americans ultimately won. Moreover, we have a strong current of fascism running through our current politics; IMO, the idea of willingly giving up arms when the fascism supporters control the House, and have overrun the judiciary is madness.
Genuinely asking: what's the point of everyone having a rifle if no one has ammo?
It's part of your army kit. As we have a mandatory military service. But, soldiers have now the option to leave it at their military Base.
Which was introduced to lower the risk of suicide. No idea the impact of this policy though.
One important point is that, swiss people aren't strongly divided or proudly displaying their, political affiliations. I think their are fights, protest and riot. But never it would come in the mind of anyone to bring a gun to such events.
Mass shooting are very rare and even though OP says people buy guns. I dont know anyone who has one. Beside for hunting.
We also have a pretty good social security and different safety nets. So this help.
All great information, but none of it really answers the original question.
Not meaning that as an insult, but I was also wondering what point it serves to have the weapon at home but to not be allowed to have ammunition for said weapon.
It being part of the "army kit" certainly makes sense, but that only reinforces the validity of the question; if the rifle is part of the kit, surely the ammo is too. And if the ammo is part of the kit but has to stay on base, then it seems nonsensical to have the weapon stored in a different location...for the same stated reason.
Well, they're both wrong. If you have a permit to own a particular type of weapon, you can buy the ammunition. Military rifles are a weird category of their own. Up until fairly recently, you were given a sealed, 50-round box of ammo for your service rifle, so that you could respond quickly if the militia was called up. That's been discontinued. But you can still quite legally buy ammunition for your service rifle as long as you have permits for that type of firearm otherwise. (This is based on what I can find and read regarding gun regulation in Switzerland, although some of this may have changed since the EU imposed new restrictions on member states.)
There is some variance in application of gun laws, as many of the permits are 'may issue' rather than 'shall issue'.
I could be wrong. I would suggest consulting with someone that specializes in Swiss firearms law, as some writeups are giving contradictory answers.
Regardless: Swiss gun ownership is estimated to be among the highest in the world, with the US being highest by far. Despite their very high rates of gun ownership, they also have a very, very low homicide rate in general, and their rate of gun crime is microscopic.
Assuming the guns are target trained, it is much more easy to store a pile of ammunition somewhere and tell everyone to come and get some in an emergency, than having to transfer the rifles whenever someone decides to move. The alternative of course is no personal ownership of the rifles, but aside from the familiarity and training it also adds a symbolic sense of responsibility and association. The scene in jarhead comes to my mind where they are told to make this "there is many like this, but this one is mine" chant over their marksman rifles.
Right on. Part of the weird fetish is that perceived need to defend themselves from the government.
It's as stupid as it is antiquated and was never a thing among patriots and decent Americans, only among people who were literally rebels: slavers and separatists, the exact people the Second Amendment was written to protect against.
The words "security of the state" are the express, stated purpose of the Second Amendment, right there in the text, and rebellion was expressly cited at the Convention by the framers.
I guess the workers at Blair Mountain were "slavers and separatists".
"decent" seems to be doing some heavy lifting here. A linguistic analysis of writings of the Framers cross-referenced against era culture and stats highlights the depth of your misunderstanding.
right there in the text
Ah - I see we're not only cherry-picking, but we're depending on a preamble e.g. a preparatory or introductory statement as somehow limiting of scope or indicative of audience to which a right was granted.
Delusional. Learn to read.
If you're under the impression that the military could win against the armed populace of the United States, you really shouldn't be commenting on this topic due to your lack of knowledge.
And you are going to do what exactly against an F-35 or drone strike with your guns? Please explain how you would stop the US military with any amount of guns.
It’s statements like these that make me wish those morons actually tried to run into Area 51, just so we have a case of a) Military definitely shooting at their own citizens (your cops are quite good at this anyway I heard) and b) a demonstration of the sheer efficiency of a trained military squad against mostly untrained civilians who think they are the greatest of them all….
Oh yeah, America is gonna nuke itself and the soldiers will totally rampage in their hometowns. /s
That would really depend on some kind of big event that riles everyone up. That's precisely why the goalposts are moved slowly.
The important thing I think is to be able to defend against crooked cops on a smaller scale as well as the crack heads problem they're not really fixing.
Shrinking middle class and people in an endless hopeless pointless life of stress and struggle. Over half the USA can't read at a 6th grade level. Ignorance and stupidity are the primary leverage force used as a political power base. It is a negative feedback loop. Billionaires are a measure of effective democracy in the USA. Their wealth comes from the lack of laws and how they exploit loopholes. They in turn fund politicians that use misinformation and stupidity to maintain the laws at an inadequate level. No one intelligent would vote for these politician and therefore they thrive on a campaign of misinformation and strive to enact policies that keep the population malleable to misinformation. All one has to do is look for where the dumbest, poorest people are located and the lines are clearly seen. These areas are undereducated with poor opportunities because of their leaders who only work for the billionaire oligarchy at the expense of those the directly represent and everyone else they drag down with them. There are no honest billionaires on this planet.
I agree completely but just so you know, it's a positive feedback loop even if the outcome is negative.
A positive feedback loop is one where the input creates an output that then increases the input further, which in turn further increases the output.
A negative feedback loop is one where the input creates an output that then lessens the input, which in turn decreases the output.
Shrinking middle class begets ignorance. Political forces capitalize on ignorance to misinform and manipulate the masses to elect people and enact policies that are not in their best interest. Doing so further erodes the middle class and decreases education, begetting further ignorance, misinformation, and political extremism. Positive feedback loop.
(Sorry if this was pedantic but it reminded me of a very specific learning moment I had with an old science teacher of mine about this exact distinction)
Shrinking middle class begets ignorance
We literally have the most educated populace in our history.
This isn't about ignorance.
I’d argue that’s it’s a negative feedback loop because the outputs are less good things: like a well sized middle class and a learned population.
It's not about good things or bad things
Negative feedback loop: X is added to the system, which causes less X to be produced. Over time, the rate at which new X is appearing will go down.
- This is the more common one in biology. As something starts to build up in your body, your body makes it so you don't produce it as quickly (so you don't 'overdose' on the chemicals you are making)
Positive feedback loop: X is added to the system, which causes more X to be produced. Over time, the rate at which new X is appearing will go up.
- This is more rare because it pushes to an extreme. Example might be birth, where pressure on the uterus causes the release of oxytocin, which causes contractions, which causes more pressure, even more oxytocin, etc. till birth is completed
So in this case it's a positive feedback loop regardless, because something is being pushed to the extreme.
Ooh, now do positive vs. negative reinforcement!
No
Ok fine:
Reinforcement encourages a behavior, but the method depends
- positive = add something good (ex. When they do something good, you give them a cookie)
- negative = remove something bad (ex. When they do something good, you reduce the number of hours they have to work)
The wording can flip the meaning, so don't get too hung up on it
- ex. Give a cookie (positive), could also be reducing hunger
- ex. Reducing work hours (negative), could also be giving more vacation time
yeah, there's nothing to argue here. These are scientific definitions of the two terms. A positive feedback loop can be negative in terms of consequences, but it doesn't change the fact that the loop is defined as a positive feedback loop.
The words "positive" or "negative" in terms of the loop definition do not refer to "good" or "bad", but rather the mathematical definitions of "additive/multiplicative" or "subtractive/divisive". A positive feedback loop is an additive or multiplicative function whereby inputs increase outputs which increase inputs which increase outputs.
A classic example is a snowball rolling down a hill that grows in size and gains speed. Whether or not the snowball grows big enough and rolls fast enough to annihilate the school at the bottom of the hill, it doesn't change the fact that by definition the feedback loop that is generating a larger and larger and faster and faster snowball is defined as positive.
An example of a negative feedback loop could be you getting sick. The input being viral or bacterial particles enter your body, the output is your body temperature increases, which kills the pathogens thereby decreasing the input. The decrease in pathogens then signals to your body that the infection is receding, and you body temperature returns to normal (decreased output). You healing from a sickness is a positive (good) thing, but the feedback loop that did it, is a negative one.
When I visited the USA, I was shocked at the number of clearly not sane people that were wandering the streets, shouting at things only they could see in their minds, etc.
Those are just the visibly mentally ill people, a vast number of others go under the radar.
In my country I've seen people like this maybe twice in my entire lifetime, in the USA I saw a dozen over a 6 month period. It was WILD. It's something you should expect to almost never see in your lifetime, if you're seeing it with any regularity? - There's something very wrong.
These people need to be in mental healthcare, be it a mental hospital for those in most serious condition, or varying levels of care and assistance further down.
But... They don't have a functioning healthcare system in the USA, let alone mental healthcare. All they have really are private companies acting like vultures picking at the dying masses pulling cash and misery out of them.
They're the richest failed state I've ever seen. The wide dissonance between their existence as a functioning first world nation and their existence as a state with a deeply crumbling failed interior that's only further falling apart year after year is kinda wild.
I really hope they can have a bit of cultural and societal revolution and right the ship, there are so many wonderful people there and so much to fight for.
But I think for all their supposed cultural love of fighting for their rights and freedoms, they're just too oppressed by the rich and the powerful to organise and fight for a better nation :-(
See, the problem is, they're not used to thinking that the state should look after it's people and their well being. The polititians hide this behind "free will" and so they leave indivudals to do whatever they like. This is all good, but everyone needs help once in a while... we've all had our ups and downs, but people there are used to dealing with any downfall by themselves. Sure, this strengthens some individuals, but others... they fall down a rabbit hole 🤷.
So, they see nothing wrong with the way the state is being run and that's why they don't aso for changes by the state. Plus, a large portion of the US is not well educated, which of course dumbs down critical thinking.
Not a US citizen, just my 2 cents on your comment.
"Cultural love of rights and freedoms"
Which includes being mentally ill in the streets. Despite what you are saying, it's not because of a for-profit system, it's because SCOTUS has literally ruled it to be illegal to involuntarily commit people who are not an imminent danger to themselves or others (a for-profit system actually benefits from involuntary commitment). This means that any mentally ill people can simply refuse treatment and roam the streets and that's exactly what they do.
Cult of fame coupled with crippling hopelessness caused by late stage capitalism.
And the 80s? ruling that guns were meant to be for self defense; up til then the 2nd amendment was not read that way
laTe sTAgE cAPItalIsM
I really hate that this is used as though it means anything at all to most people. It's not an argument by itself.
Late Stage Capitalism: Poverty is worse than anytime after slavery, wealthy people have never been wealthier, police brutality is at the highest since slavery, workers rights are trending back towards the second Industrial Revolution, politics recognizes corporations as people (thus robbing those who cannot compete with billions upon billions of dollars), civil rights are receding, basic necessities are becoming scarce, the environment itself is being poisoned for profit, etc.
Meanwhile, before mass shootings, murder was a lot more common and society was more prone to violence.
Violence has been in a downwards spiral, regardless what is pushed to public forum.
Not saying you're wrong, but a source to go with that would be great.
Not the same person but here you go
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_Stateshas a few sources and an easy to consume table. Per its table, rates since 1960 peaked in the 80s at 10.2/100k population; Columbine was in 1999, when the rate was 5.7 per 100k, and until at least 2018, the rate has never exceeded that.
https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/murder-homicide-ratehas slightly different data and shows that the murder rates increased past that rate during COVID. However in 2022 the rates dropped - source and were expected to continue dropping at that rate or even faster. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/06/us-murder-rate-decline-crime-statistics/674290/confirms that theory - rates for the 90 reporting cities were down 12% as of May of this year.
I see the data you've linked, but find it fascinating what the parent comment is implying.
OP is asking: "guns have been around for so long, why are mass shootings more common only recently?"
Parent comment's answer is "total murder rates used to be higher before, and the rate is now less than what it used to be before"
Even looking at your homocide data, what does that mean? Why have mass shootings increased?
And the further question that brings to my mind is: are people putting these 2 pieces of unrelated data together, to draw the conclusions that support their own bias? Great that overall murder rates are down compared to the 70s and 80s.....but that doesn't mean the country doesn't have a gun problem, or that mass shootings aren't unnecessary and avoidable deaths and a sign of some underlying unhealthiness in a community.
Mass shootings weren't even defined before. We didn't talk about them because they weren't tracked. Even now the definition of mass shooting isn't settled, with some definitions having about a dozen per year, and others having about 2 per day.
Can we factor in things counted as massacres rather than mass shootings?
I'm not in the US but just a few weeks back I was listening to a podcast where, in my country, although violence against women still occurs (their were focusing on murder) while this year there had already been around 16 cases, thirty years back that would be the number for a single quarter. And from that point on, it was a general talk about violence in society.
I'd like to point how polite I think your wording is. That's probably the least offensive way to ask for a citation.
Fox News was founded October 7th 1996, just over 27 calendar yesrs ago. Remember when all the racists were emboldened by Trump being elected, Imagine the slow and steady change after giving them their own justification media machine that spreads FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt) for profit of everyone who pays them including weapons manufactureres.
Hyper-sensationalism of the violence and its impact gave those seeking revenge and suicide a convenient two-in-one option.
Modern societies crush people. It breaks them. There are huge contradictions too: the idea of working to succeed when it is actually not working. The idea of freedom vs the wage slavery. The idea of being in a powerful and advanced country but still poor as fuck.
And then you have this culture of guns and violence. They go togethet: you get guns because you believe it can fix problems. Because you believe that killing people can fix problems.
Add 2 and 2 together: you have these life crushing problems, and guns as problem solver. Society provoque the problem. Kill them. Kill them all. Maybe they'll understand after that and change something.
Far right and conspiracy theory give a theoric foundation for people to focus their rage or despair too.
And this is exactly how the system is designed to work. The purpose of the US gun madness is to keep the population scared. Scared people are more likely to agree to having their rights taken away in the name of "safety". Having constant mass shootings just helps keep up the atmosphere of fear that authoritarians thrive on.
Hey Alex Jones, didn't you lose a lawsuit over this shit?
Modern societies crush people. It breaks them.
The world has been pretty shit for the entirety of history. Working conditions are better than they ever have been. People make more than they ever have. Crime is dropping year-over-year.
Arguing that this is occuring because everything is getting worse is just completely and utterly wrong. Quality of life is increasing greatly for the average person.
All these words and not one about having way better guns than before.
Columbine.
The media went absolutely batshit. Who were they? Why did they do it? Interview absolutely everyone! The public must know. And they tuned in in their droves to find out.
Incel types took note. If you've failed at life and want five minutes of fame, grab a gun and head back to school.
We haven't had AR15s for 200 years. The real answer though is more likely cultural, because there are plenty of countries with permissive gun laws who have much lower rates of gun homicide than the US.
While we haven't had AR15s for that long, full autos were legal for private ownership prior to 1986
And ARs go back to the 50s-60s IIRC
The lack of mental health care for literally everyone.
Hasn't mental healthcare been way worse in most of the past?
Nah we used to toss anyone with even a lisp into a room with padded walls until we could get the doctor to stab his brain or electrocute them until they're "right" again or just left in there to get assaulted until they die.
Wait, yes.
yes, but we closed all insane asylums/mental wards too. some hospitals have a few beds dedicated for that but it's not the massive infrastructure of the past.
Yeah, but while they had it rough in a lot of ways, they didn't have stuff constantly blasting them in the face telling them how inadequate they are, bullies would only mess with those they bullied when they were physically close to each other, they didn't have a chance to see pictures of hundreds of thousands of people's "good" lives and wish they had that, etc...
Pretty much, the internet, and the media in general is to blame. If you didn't know how good of a time people were having an hour away from you, you weren't missing anything. As they say, ignorance is bliss.
Misdirection of values. We tell children there's a path, go to school, get a job, find a spouse, get married, get a house and have kids, but life isn't that simple. As life introduces chaos into the path, people fall off and some have a hard time getting back on. We've spent so much time on developing social media and marketing platforms that idolize those that make it through the path that no one looks out for those that fall off, making them feel isolated and unheard. Niche social media and mass marketing for weapons has made it easy for lone wolves to seek revenge on the system that let them down.
I think we can generally say the above is true across all political spectrums. The below might be rejected, but it's my view.
The right has made increasingly extreme statements to pull in these vulnerable people in order to make them feel heard, but it's just for show and votes. We've seen how politicians like Trump are really just using them for his own gains and as the NRA funnels more money into the "system", it really takes huge government action to curb this cycle.
I would blame this, and a lot of the problems "western" countries face, on the proliferation of 24 hour cable news networks since the Gulf War.
Reporting and tracking. Before the automatic weapons ban you had prolific bank robbers that shot their way out of many situations, but it wasn't generalized to mass shootings.
Rico was created to combat organized crime in the 70s. Lots of people were killed, but it was presented as an organized crime problem not a mass shooting problem.
Since Columbine you have school shootings. One of the biggest predictors has become media reporting of a shooting. That's obviously not the sole cause though.
Essentially the US has always been violent, it just hasn't always been lumped into a single mass shootings bucket. Rival gangs fighting is totally different than a school shooter, and a murder suicide is also entirely different.
A lot has been said already, but it's worth mentioning that modern guns are much more capable of killing than guns 200 years ago. Back then, guns were very inaccurate and had to be reloaded one shot at a time and packed by hand. Now we have automatic weapons with large magazines that can be swapped out in seconds. They have less recoil and greater accuracy. Regardless of cultural and political issues, guns are just more capable of killing than they used to be.
Most gun designs are 70 years old or so and they were as widely available then as they are now.
Something besides the technology has definitely changed.
People were not buying automatic weapons in Wallmart even 50 years ago
Actually, before 1986 and the Hughes Amendment, anyone could buy an automatic weapon in Walmart (idk if Walmart sold them, but legally they could). After 86 they became effectively impossible to get (takes months for extensive background checks and costs more than a car)
No, but 100 years ago, you could buy actual machine guns out of the sears catalog. No background check, no ID. Just a money order and postage on delivery.
That ended in 1986
No, it ended in 1934. 1986 ended when you could buy new ones with fingerprinting, background checks, and an (originally) prohibitively expensive tax.
People aren't buying automatic weapons now. You have to jump through a LOT of hoops to acquire an automatic gun, they can cost as much as $40K, and have to be manufactured before 1986. But 50 years ago they absolutely were available. They were banned in 1986.
Correction: they can cost as little as $40,000 now. That's close to the minimum price for a legally tranferrable machine gun. An M134 minigun would currently run right around $200,000. There is no legal way for a regular person to get a post-'86 machine gun; dealer samples, et al. are not generally transferable (see also: Larry Vickers).
Thompson submachine guns (Tommy guns) were available by mail order in the 1920s with zero background checks. All you had to do was fill out the order slip, a check or money order, and drop it in the mail.
... which is exactly what the prohibition era gangs did.
Wow America is terrifying
I remember when my oldest sister bought her first AR-15 at the hardware store, for cash. They didn’t so much as ask for ID. It wasn’t locked up or anything, just take it off the shelf and go check out, no big deal.
This was in 1991.
Uh, when I first got an AR-15 about ten years ago, I went to Walmart first to see what they had. They had a bunch on a rotating rack you could pick up. Magazines and ammo were inside a glass shelf next to it. You just bought it all there, the only thing they did was walk you out of the store before handing it over.
I didn't actually end up buying one though, I was given one by a local gun store as payment for saving them about $3500 a year on their IT bill and building them PCs. A nice little mostly custom AR chambered in .300 BLK. My father-in-law took it hog hunting one year.
blackpowder rifles were actually really good just hard to use. Modern reproductions are interior copies and modern black powder is worse (it's optimised for different things) .
For example many mid to late 1800s guns could hit point targets out to ~300 yards.
My wife is really into this shit and apparently being a first grade rifleman required something like being able to shoot accurately from a field position to 1000 yards. It was very hard to get that good but many did.
Keep in mind by this time they had all sorts of bells and whistles. Basic cartridges, specialised bullet geometries, progressively narrowing rifling etc.
They were quite slow to fire, but loading a cartridge wasn't that slow. you basically either breech loaded it or just pushed it down the end and lightly packed it (bullet expands when fired to lock with rifling).
EDIT: she informs me that the 1850something Enfield had assessments hitting a 3 ft wide target at up to 900 yards.
The cartridges were not like modern brass ones but paper, they were more like 2 stage packets that you tore open and poured first the powder, then the bullet. The bullet would readily fall clear down the barrel and require only light tamping to make ready to fire.
apparently this rifle is basically the pinnacle of muzzle loaders.
Also apparently it was mostly used in the north American civil war, but they didn't buy the English bullets designed for it and consequently it earned a terrible reputation in that war. Don't cry though as the slavers used it so that's kinda funny.
Anyway, people are smart and guns have been good for a long time.
l8er sk8t3r5
Has nothing to do with 200 years, he literally said in the title "the last 30 years"
As another pointed out, we had "dealdly assault weapons" like the AR15 since 1956
50 years ago you could shock the city, maybe the country. Now you can livestream it for the whole world and media makes a huge profit from these incidents I bet. So in short; attention. If you're nobody and want everyone to know your name tomorrow - this is the way.
My theory: In the last 30 years, the topic "gun ownership" has been politicized. Which in turn brought in people who mix up "enjoying freedom" with "being able to own a gun, the bigger, the better". Those people are part of an extreme end of a political spectrum. And guess what you also find at extreme ends of the political spectrum? People who want to cover up their insecurities, people with mental problems, people with extremist worldviews.
The political usurpation of the 2nd amendment by the right just to get a strong=fanatical voter base basically led to this rise in gun violence in the USA. Gun ownership as an "expression of freedom" is an artificial construct to harvest votes, just like "fear of immigration" (or worse: "replacement theory" bullshit) or abortion are artificial topics for the same reason. Although the abortion topic has the additional "benefit" of being a part of "suppressing women", which also appeals to certain voter bases.
Fox News was founded in 1996.
The columbine shooting was in 1999.
Maye it isn't guns or mental health but fame.
There are some really good answers here.
I’ll add some additional things.
The repeal of the fairness doctrine, tv news no longer needs to be actually fair.
Back until the mid 80s there were really only 3-4 channels… everyone relied on the same news and we HAD to agree on facts. But there are almost no common facts today. There are 10000 sources and no matter where you are it can look like you’re correct, and very much in the center, and you can’t understand why those crazy “others” can’t see the truth.
how the hell are you going to shoot a big bunch of people with a musket?
The AR-15 was designed in 1956...
Not sure the point you're making...
ellipses are vague...
The point he’s making is that the title asks what changed to make mass shootings more commons “in the last 30 years” and you answered it by blaming the difference between guns today and guns 250 years ago, so he pointed out that there was at least a 30 year period where the guns of today were available and yet the mass shooting problem of today didn’t exist (1960-1990).
That would mean that the cause of mass shootings today isn’t necessarily because we evolved beyond the musket.
Were those assault weapons as easily aquirable then as it is now? I imagine back then every supermarket was not suffed with them and they might've been much more expensive relatively.
Were those assault weapons as easily aquirable then as it is now?
A lot more easy as a matter of fact. All the stores stuffed with guns now were just as stuffed with them back then, if not more so, and it was easier AND faster to get them into your hands. I mean you're casually calling a semiautomatic AR-15 an “assault weapon” because it LOOKS like a military gun. But prior to 1986 you could just go and buy a fully automatic machine gun that also FUNCTIONED like a military gun. I mean there was a point in time in American History where you could order a rifle in a paper catalogue.
You could argue that we’re not doing enough to prevent guns from entering the hands of mass shooters, but we are doing more than we ever have before and yet it’s worse than it’s ever been before. At the end of the day guns are a tool used in these crimes that can and do make their execution far more bloody and deadly and something should be done to minimize that as much as reasonably possible, but they aren’t at all the cause.
Was not expecting such reasonable rhetoric on Lemmy. Rare w
"Assault weapon" doesn't mean anything in actual weapon terminology. Regular citizens cannot acquire fully automatic firearms without tens of thousands in permits. The guns used in shootings are all semi automatic, just because it's stylized like an M-16 doesn't mean it's more powerful or capable of anything beyond any other semi automatic weapon.
Yes, you could always go and buy a semiautomatic weapon from the Walmart down the road. I don't think they changed in price except with inflation though.
The technology and accessibility have always been similar, that's why it's weird that the issue seems to have significantly spiked in 1999 when Columbine happened and the entire planet spent a month doing deep dive investigations into the shooter psychology.
It seems more like the change is that incel wannabe badasses realized they can have five minutes of infamy by just grabbing a gun and going to kill some random people. Considering everything else is the same.
Ah. My point was not to say that mass shootings are strictly because of advancements in firearm technology. Anyone who thinks it's not multifactorial is a moron. But anyone who thinks the underlying technology isn't fundamentally required for the phenomenon to occur is also a moron.
I was only responding to the fact that OP said 200 years, and just from a practical perspective 200 years ago you just couldn't do a mass shooting. If you ask me why we didn't have mass shootings in the 50s through 70s that's a different question that actually gets to the point of the matter. 200 years is such a long timeframe as to be silly. Might as well ask why people didn't send bulk emails in the 20s.
Well OP is framing the entire timeframe as 200 years but he also specifies the last 30. So 35, 40, 45, 60, 100 years ago are all still more relevant than over 200 years ago.
Semiautomatic weapons have existed since the early 1900's and the AR-15/M-16 platform has been around for 80 years.
Sure but OP said 200 years ago.
Probably because they're new and don't realize how pedantic people can be.
The point is that weapons capable of doing this have been available for much longer than the curve of mass shootings, so another factor is likely at play. The SKS, AR-15, and AK-47/Mak-90 have been on the market and owned by citizens of the US for decades prior.
The US defunded mental health hospitals.
It is a lot more complicated than that. There are strong cultural reasons we defunded them but in essence they had become so toxic it was best to close them.
The plan was to close the horrific, abusive insane asylums and replace them with community mental health centers.
Then neoliberals got into power and said "nah, I dont think so" to that second part.
So now our most mentally unwell people live their lives in prison and on the streets.
Our society is rotting
Financial stress. Go take a closer look at the crime stats that right wing racists like to hammer the black community with. Then adjust them for poverty rates in the community. All of a sudden the racial divide in violent crime goes away. If anything, poor white men are the most violent, but not by enough to really be significant. The driving factor, by around 10 or 15 to 1, is poverty.
We're seeing declining standards of living across the country, while technology hides the true depths of it. The whole, you can't be poor if you have a wide screen TV and a refrigerator, is almost true. It's just enough to make it look like having no bargaining power, being locked into your zip code, buried in debt, and renting everything you own, somehow represents wealth.
This is not to say economic desperation alone is the cause of gun violence, but easy access to guns, the complete disdain for funding healthcare mental or otherwise, the lack of vacation for most workers, these are all things which don't make well people.

Rough image. And here in Western Europe I’m concerned about wealth distribution from bottom to top.
But maybe that’s different, because this chart says income distribution.
I feel the same. I suspect the rich in Europe develop other ways to get their income to avoid taxes.
In my eyes it comes down to the possibilities of building up and maintaining some modest wealth. Most prominent examples are housing prices. With rising prices as we've seen in the past 2 decades, many people are forced to remain renters instead of being able to buy their own house or appartment. That's wealth distribution upwards.
If you have some modest amount of money, say some 10k EUR, trying to invest that such that it doesn't loose value is close to impossible. The whole finance industry seems to be set up to suck up any gains that these investments can get. As soon as you can juggle a few 100k EUR, a whole other range of investments opens up to you. That's wealth distribution upwards.
In Germany (I don't know about other countries) if you work to live and earn little, you're taxed little, but you don't earn enough to save anything anyways. If you earn more, you are taxed much more heavily than someone merely lives off a passive income. That's wealth distribution upwards.
I wouldn't be surprised, if this graph doesn't concern itself with passive income anyways.
If we're setting the calendar back 200 years, I'd have to guess that one of the contributing factors is records keeping and reporting. The definition of what is considered a "mass shooting" has also been fluid over the past 50 or so years.
These are not likely to be major contributors, but from Hollywood's depictions, mass shootings may have been pretty common around 150 years ago.
As society has gotten more dense people feel like society has pushed them aside, which it often does. Their families have increasingly less time for their loved ones and dont provide a fallback network.
Bombarded with the lives of the rich and famous which we will never be... might as well be infamous.
Bush let the Clinton assault weapon ban expire and then assault weapons began to flood the market over the next two decades.
AR-15s existed long before the ban and people didn't much care for them. They use an intermediate round which hunters consider too low-power to be humane, and I believe it's illegal to hunt with those rounds in some states. Anybody could get one, only few people did.
So what happened? Democrats said, "You can't have these!" and Americans, predictably, flipped out and bought tens of millions once available. Hell, I wasn't interested until everyone was screaming BAN after Uvalde. Figured if I was ever going to get one, might as well get grandfathered in. The long-standing joke is that Democrats are the best gun salesmen of all.
Also, the media hype. Have you noticed the media salivates over "assault weapons" given the opportunity? ALL long guns, of which AR-15's are a subset, are responsible for only 4% of the killing. Our media has beat it into our heads that the best way to kill a bunch of people is the AR-15.
There are so many other gun death related issues we should be beating the drum about. That's another long post. :(
Actually, the data shows that the assault weapons ban of 1994 was associated with a decrease in mass shooting deaths and the number of incidents[1][5][6]. During the ten-year period of the ban, there were lower average annual rates of both mass shootings and deaths resulting from such incidents than before the ban’s inception[1][5][6]. However, after the ban expired in 2004, there was an almost immediate and steep rise in mass shooting deaths[1][5][6]. Between 2004 and 2017, the average number of yearly deaths attributed to mass shootings was 25, compared with 5.3 during the 10-year tenure of the ban and 7.2 in the years leading up to the prohibition on assault weapons[1][5][6]. It is important to note that many additional factors may contribute to the shifting frequency of these shootings, such as changes in domestic violence rates, political extremism, psychiatric illness, firearm availability and a surge in sales, and the recent rise in hate groups[1][5][6]. Nonetheless, the data suggests that the assault weapons ban of 1994 was associated with a decrease in mass shooting deaths and the number of incidents, while the expiration of the ban was associated with an increase in mass shooting deaths^[1][5][6].
Citations: [1] Did the assault weapons ban of 1994 bring down mass shootings? Here's what the data tells us - Ohio Capital Journal https://ohiocapitaljournal.com/2022/06/15/did-the-assault-weapons-ban-of-1994-bring-down-mass-shootings-heres-what-the-data-tells-us/[2] [PDF] Impacts of the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban - Office of Justice Programs https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/173405.pdf[3] Fact-check: Did the number of mass shootings triple after the assault weapon ban ended? - Austin American-Statesman https://www.statesman.com/story/news/politics/politifact/2022/06/01/fact-check-did-mass-shootings-triple-after-assault-weapon-ban-ended/9941501002/[4] Studies: Gun Massacre Deaths Dropped During Assault Weapons Ban, Increased After Expiration - Senate Judiciary Committee https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/press/dem/releases/studies-gun-massacre-deaths-dropped-during-assault-weapons-ban-increased-after-expiration[5] Did the assault weapons ban of 1994 bring down mass shootings? Here's what the data tells us - The Conversation https://theconversation.com/did-the-assault-weapons-ban-of-1994-bring-down-mass-shootings-heres-what-the-data-tells-us-184430[6] Did the assault weapons ban of 1994 bring down mass shootings? Here's what the data tells us - Yahoo News https://news.yahoo.com/did-assault-weapons-ban-1994-193107345.html
Actually, the data shows that the assault weapons ban of 1994 was associated with a decrease in mass shooting deaths and the number of incidents
Correlation from causation aside, for this to have any real significance, there would need to be a drop in mass shooting counts.
That aside, your own citation shows any change in deaths is questionable at best - it looks as if the average may have even increased, by the included graph.
It also seems to pretend that _merely banning the sales of more "assault weapons" would have nullified the impact of existing assault weapons.
However, after the ban expired in 2004, there was an almost immediate and steep rise in mass shooting deaths.
Again, correlation from causation aside, for this to have any real meaning there would have to be only one changing factor... and the trend would have had to been consistent with a near-elimination of the count of events.
Can you truly think of no other changes? No, say, incredible spike in the media glorifying and sensationalizing such events, inadvertently promoting them as a means of getting violent retribution as one commits suicide?
It boils down to this: was there any direct scaling of such values with the actual count of owned "assault weapons"? Of course not.
It is important to note that many additional factors may contribute to the shifting frequency of these shootings, such as changes in domestic violence rates, political extremism, psychiatric illness, firearm availability and a surge in sales, and the recent rise in hate groups
Wow. So, you dilute the value of your own correlation by highlighting factors known to be common underlying issues, yet double-down on "suggest" and "decrease".
It's terrible I can only upvote you once.
In order to judge the effectiveness of the assault weapons ban, we need to look at if the usage of the banned weapons themselves decreased in mass shootings. If mass shootings dropped by half, but the banned weapons only compromised a third of the shootings prior to the ban, then clearly there is much more at play.
As is most mass shootings are committed using handguns, not rifles. Even on the higher-end of causalities, handguns comprise about 50 percent of the biggest mass shootings. (Incidents like Orlando and Virginia Tech were committed entirely with handguns, Ar-15s aren't actually advantageous in most shooting incidents, it's purely aesthetic).
This is simply wrong. Many of the worst mass shootings in the last decade were committed with low power rifles and handguns. I'm actually pretty sure the two worst mass shootings (by count of those who were killed) in the US were done using .22 ammunition. Those weapons were not covered by whatever ban you're talking about
It's not about "assault weapons" and it's not even about guns. It's about the inability of our government to pass meaningful legislation around gun ownership and mental health and especially where those two topics intersect
The problem is that human suffering is normalized because the wealthy political class and those who fund them are not going to let things change for the better if it means less money for them.
Conservative media probably has a lot of blood on its hands. Pumping people up with fear of outsiders. Fox news is a relatively new entity.
I think at the high level it's the military industrial senatorial complex, the deregulation and reagonomics under Republicans, the neoliberalism under democratic, globalization, de-industrialization, the modern banking/credit system, the modern media complex, and personalized engagement algorithms.. Downstream of that is a high rate of poverty, debt, illiquidity, a poor healthcare system, reliance on jobs for affordable healthcare, a lack of access to robust mental health treatment, modernization of weaponry, a radicalized and angry society, collapsing social cohesion, division along small tribal lines, lacl of patriotism, and upregulation of the average amygdala. Downstream of that you have homelessness, addiction, mental health crisises, violence, suicide, murder, and the institutional inertia that makes these intergenerational problems.
Yes, we need a multifactorial approach to all of these things both acute and chronic. It isn't as simple or as possible to get rid of the guns, but we can increase gun laws. We could require training of all citizens, we can give a budget to support red flag law enforcement, we can give the alcohol and tobacco regulation to the FDA, and let at the ATF focus on firearm enforcement, or roll it in to the secret service or fbim We can make healthcare free. We can spend a fuckton of money on it. We can raise the minimum wage. We can actually govern the economic policy rather than outsourcing it to the Fed, and focus on demand-side instead of supply -side economic solutions, pay for college, guarantee a living wage and housing.
But not with most of the Republicans in the way and the lobbyists at the ear of our representatives.
We need a modern Robespierre. A charismatic leader to lead the public by uniting them rather than dividing them, who will make such massive changes that they'll come for his head.
Australia had a problem with guns too, until the government stepped in. They had a program where people were paid for giving up their guns.
Limiting access to guns is such a simple thing to do, and has such a huge impact... It's not going to solve crime, but it will make crime less deadly.
Exactly. Around the world, western countries seem to be enshittifying. The only difference is that the US has widespread access to guns which seems to lead to lots of shootings of all flavours. We don’t have that shit here.
SIMPLE?
by all means, go right ahead. lol
You're either an exceptionally well-read moron or a great satirist.
I prefer the term idiot savante
It's probably a combination of many factors already mentioned. If like to add to it the idea that our food supply has changed.
Too many people, too much news, a society that is both more permissive and more polarized, more communication between fringe group members.
I would say publicly and easily available high rate of fire guns were not always in your wallmart shopping lists no ?
The complete unwinding of social safety nets, mental health interventions, and educational funding from the Reagan years finally culminated in a completely vulnerable population. Then we began the era of 24 hour news, extremist Identity politics, and just a general erosion of any semblance of shared American identity.
That's a nasty little stew.
Well for one we redefined mass shooting a few years back which absolutely spiked the numbers because now any robbery gone wrong or gang turf war gets classified in as a MS.
So when people see 300 MS they think 300 columbines or 300 Aurora theatre shootings. Most of those are much smaller and have nothing to do with the lone wolf shooter that people think of when the words "mass shooting" come up.
The other reason is cultural significance. There's an increased likelihood of a shooting in a place where a previous mass shooting has occurred. The media spending weeks covering the incidents while plastering people's likeness all over the place shows the disenfranchised extremist that they too can become infamous in a blaze of glory which leads to increased incidents of mass shooting as well.
Lastly, I think there's a general air of "there's no hope and I have no purpose" among people today that previous generations never had to deal with in the same manner. Add that on top of the previously mentioned things and it multiplies.
So basically media coverage and the sociopolitical divide becoming more of a chasm. Access to firearms hasn't changed much in that time and firearms technology had semi automatic weapons invented for much longer than that.
Maybe don't give guns to mentally unstable people.
@dope Once a meme hits mainstream consciousness it is tough to get it to go away. Columbine out school shootings in the mind of every child of that generation, and since then toxic online forums filled with trolls have kept the idea alive be it "an hero" "unalive yourself" and just generally the nihilistic attitude of if you feel bade enough about yourself to consider killing yourself, you might as well take out some others you hate with you. This is mental illness at its core, but with the enablement of technology and toxic online "community" culture.
Then there are spin off effects of this mentality combined with the impression of the efficacy of terrorism from a psychological imprint perspective, and some narcissists will mass kill for "the cause". Again mental illness at its core, with a different "community" dynamic.
In both of these cases it is the meme, in the original sociology sense of the word, that has caused the rise of the behavior. The cultural condition of alienation and anonymous communication on the rise, combined with overall eroded access to in-person and in-patient mental health services due to the privatized health system, keeps the meme breeding in the alienated cultural class.
Memes spread outside of the USA
@Siegfried and there have been mass shootings outside the USA, don't forget what happened in Norway for example. In the US the mental health and social support infrastructure is weak, so the meme is actualized more often.
One variable that I think doesn't get looked at seriously is class size and school funding. Ask any North American teacher, and you'll get a grim assessment on the trajectory of schooling since the 90's. When teachers have more students than they can handle, it's no surprise that things get out of hand.
I'd argue that part of the solution is more teachers per student. This enables better relationships between faculty and students, and better opportunities for mentorship. Build more schools, hire more teachers, pay them well, make school a place where teachers want to be, and where kids can thrive.
But reforming the existing system is a hot potato that neither the left nor right wants to hold, so, here we are. The system itself is degraded to the point that it doesn't have the resources to self-correct. We need vision, wisdom, funding, and leadership, to steer things in a new direction. I think that would go a long way in preventing a misguided kid from fermenting the idea that murdering people, or their own classmates, is an answer to their problems.
I don't mean to paint school shootings as simply a rebellion against a malfunctioning system, but, we really need to look at the system and make sure it's serving the students that have no choice but to be there.
Being easier to access high capacity and/or higher rate of fire weapons
A lack of support causing more people to experience mental health issues
Suburbanization and urban sprawl causing people to feel more isolated
24/7 need channels filling people's heads with bullshit?
Just a few ideas.
I love how all the people talking about how semi auto guns have been around for X years and blah blah blah completely ignore the massive uptick in production, sale, and distribution of those guns in the past 30-40 (or so).
People have more or less been able to buy assault style semi auto rifles for a long time, but they only "recently" (I guess 30-40 years might not be so recent?) started actually buying them in large numbers. Mostly thanks to the NRA, if I had to point a finger.
The problem is that a really angry or disturbed or whatever person with access to a high rate of fire weapon and lots of ammo (because they've been told that next election Jack Johnson or John Jackson will be taking their guns) can literally just pick it up and go kill half a dozen or more people in 30 minutes. There's nothing we can do to intercept that. (And "good guys with guns" have a terrible track record, including cops.)
We even had a little experiment in the 90s where people were buying a lot of these and then we banned them. Mas shootings (4+ victims according to the FBI if I recall correctly) had been going up but then they went down until ...
W and his Republican stooges (or maybe he was the stooge?) let the ban expire, mass shootings started ticking up.
The drivers that lead people to mass violence probably are the "root" of the problem, and I would guess hypothetically that if we could snap our fingers and solve those it wouldn't matter how many or what type of guns there are out there. The problem is that we aren't even trying to fix those problems, and the Republican Party is actively making them worse, AND we're making these literal weapons of war easily available to everyone.
Semi-automatic guns became widespread in the US military in World War II. The US’s first mass shooting was in 1949, by a man who served in WWII.
Mass shootings were common before 30 years ago, but generally only gangsters had automatic weapons, so the non-gang/mafia related mass shootings usually only involved revolvers or shotguns and were over pretty quickly.
Mass shootings were common before 30 years ago, but generally only gangsters had automatic weapons
Production of automatic weapons for civilians has been outlawed since ‘86. Very, very few civilians own automatic weapons. Blaming something virtually nobody has is nonsensical.
You're right, I didn't mean automatic guns, I meant assault style weapons. Basically auto and semi-auto, high capacity, low recoil long guns.
WBUR actually did a podcast on this recently.. It's called the Gun Problem iirc
The Internet and modern media. We're constantly blasted with stuff that makes us feel shitty because we don't have this or that, but someone else does, or companies are telling you that no one will like you if you don't buy their product.
Before the internet, everyone's lives weren't on display for the whole world to see and the only people you had to compare yourself to were those in your community.
Total speculation from my own experience... so maybe just me.
It seems like there is just a completely different culture surrounding guns that didn't exist before (or just wasn't so damn loud). I'm talking about the whole I need guns for "protection" because crime is out of control, the 2nd amendment SHALL NOT be infringed, "don't tread on me," I have guns and I'd like to see the government "try" and take them, etc. It's like this delusional, childish owning a gun so you can tell people you own a gun... thing? Anyone else notice you can always tell who owns a gun by how dumb their bumper stickers are?
I talked to an older dude who went to my high school 20 years before me and he told me how him and a buddy often brought their rifles to school. It was never a "thing." They might have gone hunting before school or something.. I forget. But the whole attitude he had about it was the polar opposite of what it has become.
No one is coming for your guns guys. On that note, no one fucking cares either.
Everything you mentioned is an NRA talking point.
The NRA started out as a well respected advocacy group for hunters rights and environmental protection. Then they were captured by the arms manufacturing industry, so now their only goal is to sell more guns.
And after every major mass shooting there is a significant uptick in sales of guns and ammo, so the arms industry is financially motivated to contribute to the culture of gun rampage.
Yeah, that makes sense. It used to not be a partisan thing to be an NRA member either. But I suppose I can say that about any bullshit culture war issue nowadays. This whole politics as a team sport thing is cancer.
Owning a gun just seems like another way to show support for your team. I've got a sneaking suspicion that if it were somehow illegal to tell people that you own a gun, firearm sales would plummet. Otherwise, how would anyone know how cool they are?
The NRA has a bloody hand in promoting this culture. Decades of escalating fearmongering brought them members, money, and political influence. It also took them far off course from their original goals promoting safety and responsibility. They now exist solely to promote more firearms sales at any cost, and actively push legislation against any attempts to regulate ownership. I enjoy going to the range once in a while to do some target shooting, and used to hunt years ago, but will never be a NRA member. I have no respect for this organization and what they've become.
America's greatest export is war. we're a very violent nation. every generation since the founding has had a major conflict to attend - but most of our wars in the last 30 years or so havent involved a lot of "boots on the ground". that pent up rage requires an outlet. mass killings/shootings/etc are a direct result.
adding to that, handguns are very easy to obtain - you can legally purchase them easily enough but there's also a very active black market where cash is king and questions are not asked, backgrounds are not checked. since Americans are legally permitted to own/carry firearms (as enshrined in our founding governmental documents), the system cannot change. it's not politically acceptable to request a change. no career politician is going to burn their entire life's work in something that is destined to fail. even considering is is borderline insane.
dont expect things to magically get better.
I want to say District of Columbia v Heller had something to do with it, but Columbine was a decade prior.
In the US, easy access to modern weapons mixed with increasing mental health issues is a toxic combo.
We've had guns for 200 years but not ones capable of mass shootings. Semiautomatics only became widely available more recently, and most countries have since banned them from casual use but not the USA
Mass shootings are not a recent thing, it started in 1966.
it started in 1966.
This is 'recent' even for such a young country.
Long before that, they just weren't reported as such.
The prevalence of semi auto guns with quick changing magazines.
Those have existed since the turn if the last century. Ever wonder why the 1911 is called that? Because that's the year it was adopted. The Mauser C96 was even earlier and extremely popular all over the world. Self loading arms were being produced as early as the 1890's and were in widespread adoption everywhere by the 1920's.
So no, I don't think that's it.
And throughout the 1930s you had bootleggers and gangsters with Tommy guns terrorizing urban areas across America with gangland shootings and widespread abductions since they outgunned the police. What happened? The feds got bigger guns and passed gun control to get machine guns off the street. And this was actually possible back then because the NRA was still a legitimate civil society organization emphasizing responsible gun ownership and not yet a glorified marketing campaign for arms manufacturers.
The OPs question is basically a false premise born of forgetting history.
Part of the problem is also the silly definition of “mass” shooting as any event witnessed by at least four people.
No the most common definition is the one used by gun violence archive, as an event where four or more people are killed or injured (not including the shooters). Different organizations may have different definitions. How many people "witness it" isn't used by any to the best of my knowledge.
That may be what it has morphed into. It’s still silly. No common meaning of the word “mass” contemplates only four people.