The reason breeding is bad for the environment, is because of the impact the average person has on climate. If we lived sustainable lives, breeding would not have that much of an impact.

If you try to live a sustainable life to the best of your abilities, and you instill that same mindset and way of living onto your kids, it's perfectly fine to have kids.

But if you're going to drive giant trucks powered by oil, eat red meat every day with a glass of milk, use and abuse plastic for everything, and be a massive consumerist, then sure; having kids is terrible for the environment because they will probably also do all of that.

It is not viable for cave exploration, much less body recovery.

Salt water already makes communication hard enough at that depth I think, the rock layers make it harder. The subs also cannot get everywhere a person can. A person can drag themselves through tight holes if needed, the drone cannot. Finally, body retrieval. The bodies are bloated and decomposing in salt water. How would you attach the drone to them, much less get the bodies out of the cave without risking rubbing them on the harsh and shredding rocks of the cave? The way divers do it, is by putting them in a body bag before taking them out.

I hate the discourse and ignorance surrounding this topic, especially having it come from non divers who want to speak with authority.

They were neither qualified, nor had the equipment, to perform the dive safely. The dive itself however is relatively safe, in the context of cave diving.

It's like if a 10 year old got behind the wheel of a car with no seatbelt and went on the highway. It's a death sentence. That does not mean driving on the highway is "deadly dangerous". In the context of driving, going on a highway is perfectly safe.

These people were not qualified. They did not have the proper equipment. Theirs hubris is what killed them. That, and probably peer pressure for the more inexperienced ones in the group. The one who survived is the one who stayed behind - probably because she realized how terrible of a fucking idea ir was and dos not succumb to peer pressure.

The rescue diver himself turned out to also not be qualified for it, nor have the proper equipment. He was a military diver, but that does not mean he knows anything about cave diving. He was also using rec gear, and only had one or two tanks. He died because his superior's pressured him into doing it without the proper equipment and training, instead of waiting for qualified personal. Qualified personal who, btw, volunteered. No one was forcing them to do this, despite what so many seem to think.

Yeah, pretty much

You need to kill more plants to feed the cattle you eat than if you just ate the plants.

Energy cannot be created or destroyed, only transferred. But it's never transferred with 100% efficiency, far from it in fact.

So if *you feel bad about plants dying, stop eating animals and go straight for the plant itself.

You seem to be completely missing the point I was making, I just don't know if it's because you are just looking to argue or what.

I have talked to cave divers. All of them said these cave diving deaths were 100% human error.

I never said it's not dangerous. Ever. I specifically said it is dangerous. Which is why you do need training, like I also mentioned... But if you are trained and have the proper equipment, then (depending on the cave) it's not as dangerous as people make it out. The cave which lead to this conversation specifically, is also not that dangerous as far as cave diving goes. It's "only" at 60 meters, only has 3 chambers, does not seem to have tight places you had to squeeze into. The divers who recuvered the bodies have been in caves that were 150+ meters deep, hundreds of meters long, with tight openings. But these victims went with no training, no guide line, and one tank of air. That is suicide.

Is driving a truck on a busy highway dangerous? Sure, there's many blocks of steel weighting tons and wheezing by at very fast speeds, and it's a more difficult vehicle to control. And there are accidents and roads deaths everyday. But if you have the training and take caution it's relatively fine. What the cave divers here did is the equivalent of driving a heavy truck in a highway, but with no driver's license, the truck hasn't passed inspection, and they're not wearing a seat belt. If someone does that, and then someone else comes along trying to use it as an excuse to talk about how dangerous it is, that would be sensationalism and fear mongering.

I don't know much about rescue procedures like that. In cave diving you do always have a guide line, but that's so you have a way to find the exit if you can't see anything, but it's not used to pull anyone. What your saying seems different, but I don't know about it.

It's hard to find hard data for cave diving, but you can make some estimates. I talked a bit more about this in another comment, but a high estimate I got is 0.16 deaths per each cave dive. For free diving there's several places I found saying there's 1 death for each 500 recreational free dives, so 0.2 deaths per dive.

Cave divers have multiplies of everything because they know redundancy is important, and they have protocols to deal with different problems. In free diving you just hold your breath and try to estimate how much time you have. If you mess up you pass out and probably drown.

To be clear, I'm not saying cave diving is without risk. I myself have no interest in it because caves are boring to me, and so it's not worth the risk which does exist. I just don't like the over the top fear mongering I see whenever there is a story like this.

I'm on a phone so it's not convenient, but the first study I found showed like 3 cave diving deaths in 2007 (most recent year they showed), although the trend seemed to be for it to get lower. Still, this year we are at 6 already just from this incident, so let's purposely overestimate and say 6 per year. As for the total number of dives, there are extremely famous caves all around the world that get year round activity. It's hard to find hard data, but if we play it conservatively we can estimate and say 10 per day, that's like 3650 per year. So 6/3650 -> 0.16 divers die in each cave dive.

There might be unreported deaths, but there's also a lot of unreported dives in caves people don't really know of and in remote areas. This dive might have gone unreported if not for the deaths (it was illegal for them to be there at that depth). And it's important to remember, if early reports are accurate, these people were clearly not qualified to be diving at 50m, much less in a cave.

Now free diving: Number of fatalities in 2007 was 42, and the number seems to have increased slightly (52 in 2017). Data is easier to find for some reason, and plenty resources seem to indicate that the rate of death in recreational free divers is 1/500, so 0.2 deaths per each dive.

So despite inflated number for cave diving deaths, and low estimate of cave dives in a year, free diving is still more deadly.

It's not too hard to figure out why. It's still scuba. When cave diving you can recover from mistakes. You have information on how much air you have left, and multiple of everything you need as redundancy, and so you can sort any problems you have. There are drills you do in case you lose the guide line, for example. In free diving you are just going by feeling. If you miscalculate how much air there is in your lungs and how long it will take you to resurface, you'll pass out and probably drown.

To be clear, I'm not saying cave diving is without risk. I myself have no interest in it because caves are boring to me, and so it's not worth the risk which does exist. I just don't like the over the top fear mongering I see whenever there is a story like this.

Right, there are a lot of accidents and deaths, but it's still unlikely to happen. Both things are true. And a lot of those deaths are from unqualified people who dived into a cave anyway. It's sort of like saying "flying a plane is dangerous, I've seen a lot of videos about crashes and people dying - people were not made to fly". As long as the pilot has proper training and the equipment is in proper condition, it's not really that dangerous.

There are a lot more deaths caused by free diving (even in percentile), for example, but those stories aren't as interesting and don't make for good videos, so they don't get talked about much.