lemmy.blahaj.zone has defederated from us
2y 10mon ago by lemmynsfw.com/u/MikeyMongol in lemmynsfw@lemmynsfw.com
One of the admins at lemmy.blahaj.zone asked us to purge a community and all of its users because they thought it was full of child sexual abuse material, aka CSAM, fka kiddy porn. We assured them that we had checked this comm thoroughly and we were satisfied that all of the models on it were of age.
The admin then demanded we purge the comm because they mistook it for CSAM, and claimed that the entire point of the community was to make people think it was CSAM. We vehemently disagreed that that was in fact the point of the community, but they decided to defederate from us anyway. That is of course their choice, but we will not purge our communities or users because someone else makes a mistake of fact, and then lays the responsibility for their mistake at our feet.
If someone made a community intended to fool people into thinking it was kiddy porn, that would be a real problem. If someone of age goes online and pretends -- not roleplays, but pretends with intent to deceive -- to be a child and makes porn, that is a real problem. Nobody here is doing that.
One of the reasons we run our instance the way that we do is that we want it to be inclusive. We don't body shame, and we believe that all adults have a right to sexual expression. That means no adult on our instance is too thin, fat, bald, masculine, old, young, cis, gay, etc., to be sexy, and that includes adults that look younger than some people think they should. Everyone has a right to lust and to be lusted after. There's no way to draw a line that says "you can't like adult people that look like X" without crossing a line that we will not cross.
EDIT: OK, closing this post to new comments. Everything that needs saying has been said. Link to my convo with the blahaj admin here.
Discourse like this sucks. Of course they are free to defederate but presenting this server as a place that allows abusive material is a gross misrepresentation.
I’m assuming the post in question was the one of imcherryblossom. Two seconds of Googling shows that they are a OnlyFans/Fansly model and proves they are above age, and she pretty clearly looks it too imo.
Equating that post with essentially abuse doesn’t sit right with me. Especially when this server has done a good job imo of banning even borderline content while mod tools improve.
like, damn, let petite people exist and be sexy ;-;
kudos to the admins/mods here as they've been absolutely fantastic when I have issues
After reading your post over at lemmynsfw, it's pretty clear they were looking for a rationale to defederate and would have done that no matter what you did to prevent it.
You made the right choice if with an unfortunate outcome.
I don't know if that's true. I mean, maybe? Or maybe they just don't want to see certain things and if so, that's their prerogative. Some people may call this a platitude, but I truly think that's the beauty of the Fediverse -- diverse views, diverse approaches, diverse comfort levels.
It's their server. Their choice. Thanks for your hard work!
Oh, that’s odd. Wonder if that’s just an odd quirk of Mastadon interacting with lemmy. On this end it looks like you’re manually typing out the users name on its own line.
That’s definitely what it is, seen it before
Very odd, but I suppose it makes sense.
That's just a part of Mastodon's "Twitter legacy".
you'd think a trans instance would understand that small bodies/tits don't mean child porn
should they ban us trans girls with smaller goods because we're just starting on HRT or aren't at all???
????
I'll take "discussions I won't get into with a transwoman unless I know her incredibly well and probably not even then" for $1000, Alex.
LOL valid
Ditto, well put, thanks.
I really don’t see how being a trans community qualifies one to judge adult content. I think their objection, incorrect as it was, was based on overall aesthetics and framing, not just cup size. Apparently pearl-clutching is universal.
wat
A Buddhist temple.
ah
As requested, the correspondence between me and the blahaj admin, posted with her permission. It started with this message (her* original message is on the bottom, my reply is on top):
- I had used "they" for Ada earlier, which was mistaken. My apologies.
Okay.. so it was adorableporn.
They are clearly wrong. Glad to have that settled.
Right? I don't think they know how long that community has been a thing. I remember it for at least most of the time I was on reddit too...which was just over 10 years so it's been around for a hot minute.
At this point Ada apparently had some communication with @gavi@lemmynsfw.com on Matrix, to which I was not privy. He told me, and I said that I had responded to Ada via Lemmy message. He had to step away, so I took over correspondence with Ada via Matrix.
Huge respect for the professionalism you've shown through this situation and in the way you run your instance. The quality of the content here is already impressive, and it's been the thing that's allowed me to cut my last cord with Reddit. Cheers.
That exchange is absolutely bonkers. I'm sorry but I have far less respect for Ada after reading that text exchange. Glad I don't use that instance.
To be clear, Ada has her own imperatives and her own community, and I'm not here to judge how she runs her instance. lemmy.blahaj.zone means a lot to a lot of people, and as a queer weirdo myself I appreciate that a place like it exists on the lemmyverse.
Hey, you're an instance admin and this kind of collegial statement is entirely appropriate given your role here.
Me? I'm a newbie here. I don't have much to lose. My assessment of that exchange is: she bonkers. But that's just me.
Well, I'm not familiar with who Ada is before this, but it honestly just sounds like she it's taking a very hard gut-felt position on simulated child porn, and explicitly refusing to consider the problematic implications of her gut feeling. Consenting adults of any body type can and should be able to be "adorable" as a kink or non-kink nudity or other expression. Even if I completely understand the need to heavily dissuade CSAM, that sub just doesn't fit that.
It looks like the turn in the conversation was the use of "mistake." It was accurate but clearly triggered Ada and she stopped listening at that point. I'm sure she is a good person worthy of respect, but she's in the wrong and I hope she reconsiders.
If you see how she runs her instance it's no surprise. I'm sure the ban list for their instance is long and will eventually include the entire fediverse.
Fun fact, if you click the "Instances" button in the bottom right of the page on any instance, you can see what other instances it's connected with, and if you scroll down far enough, which ones are blocked/defederated.
For reference, the instance we're on, lemmynsfw, has 4 instances blocked.
Echoing the statements elsewhere here, you handled yourself very well, and it's quite a different primary source representation from what was being described on their announcement post of why they were defederating.
Wow that was all something... Anyways sorry you have to moderate all this. Thanks for the transparency it clears up the misunderstanding(?) for me.
word.
I asked her to post the chats as well for transparency.
Not going to pass judgement on any side on this one... Just hate weird he said she said types of situations when everyone can just read the actual disagreement and go from there.
Now I can go back to other places in the Lemmyverse.
Edit: Ada confirmed the conversation is accurate and full. https://sh.itjust.works/comment/1425547
You had handled this as perfectly and professionally as one could.
I think your goof was the "I can't be held accountable for your mistake of fact". I believe they're clearly the one in the wrong regardless though.
It sucks but it is what it is.
I think it's been an interesting debate. You both make good points. Ads about how "it's similar to Loli in that it is trying to look underaged" and you with "we don't discriminate against youthful looking adults".
I guess I see it like DDLG kinks. I find it gross. I can see why people would want to ban it because they say they're pretending to do something illegal like CSAM, but a lot of links pretend to do something illegal. BDSM pretends to tie people up and torture them but people don't look at it and say "hey, you're intentionally trying to look like you're torturing people against their wills".
People seem to have a gut reaction to illegal things with children moreso than illegal things with adults and I guess that's why some people have this reaction to wanting to "purge" communities like that as opposed to ones that do things like CNC, BDSM, etc. But hey, as long as everyone involved is an adult and consenting that's totally fine.
I found that "mistake of fact" retort hilarious.
She obviously took it as a personal insult, but the whole debate is based on her own mistaken identification. So it is hard to address the topic without also seeming to target the person.
This needs to be pinned in its own thread so people can read it.
Why do those images stay the same small, almost unreadable (to my eyes) size no matter how far I zoom in?
As far as the back and forth, to be honest both sides are right after browsing that community.
I took a quick glance at the community in question, and while theres a lot of people who are clearly adults and being adorable.. they shouldnt be prevented or banned for being adorable adults making porn.. But there was also, just from my quick glance, several posts that leaned super heavily into looking underage and look barely a day over 14. . and I don't care how much you say they are verified and over 18, The people coming here looking at those pics arent thinking that. All they are thinking is they found a pedo safe haven.
and that makes my skin crawl.
And posts like that should fall under the same forbidden purview as Loli content, for the exact same reasons.
Why do you care if an 18+ year old who looks youthful does NSFW stuff? Take an extreme example, what if Hasbulla did nudes? He is 21 but looks extremely young. I can't see how telling him he isn't allowed to make nude content because of his appearance is anything other than ableist and body shaming. You don't have to like the content or even like the people who would look at it to think the content is acceptable.
If everyone is a consenting adult then everything is fine.
Its real life lolicon, and should be banned for the same reasons that that lolicon is banned. It doesn't matter if shes actually 300 years old if she looks like a 12 year old. Its literally the same shit, people getting off to the fantasy/idea of a child, trying desperately to hide themselves behind the argument of "its just a drawing!" or "they're really an adult!".
Anyone would mistake those 2-3 images for child porn. Just looking at them made my skin crawl, and thats after the admins claimed they were verified, and your argument shows thats all you care about. You don't care about community. You don't care about protecting the website. You care about keeping your pseudo-maybe-wont-get-you-thrown-in-prison child porn.
if you want that shit, go back to reddit and join Spez.
I'm not subscribed to that community. It's not my thing. I'm not into Loli either. Frankly, I do see a problem with Loli. I guess to me it is because the Loli "excuse" of "she's actually 3000 years old but just looks like a child" but then they proceed to portray them exactly as someone would portray a child. They (generally, I'm sure someone has counter examples) don't portray them as some wizened elderly woman in a child's body. That's why Loli generally feels disgusting to me.
Age verification is the correct thing to do. In the broader internet where things are less strict I'm sure you can find actual underage actors (who are possibly even being trafficked) where it could be avoided with proper age verification. Frankly I think that's just a super important thing (even apart from this specific discussion). An assumption I'm making (and I guess everyone is) is that the admins' age verification is adequate. So, assuming it is, I don't see a problem with allowing creators who appear young to make NSFW content of themselves. If it's not adequate then there's a much more important discussion that needs to be had. Based on some of the sticky posts over the past few weeks it seems like they're serious about it.
To your point, a lot of content makes my skin crawl. I just ignore it. If there's any I think is actually illegal I'd report it. Maybe I haven't seen the specific ones you're talking about so maybe that's why I don't feel the same way. I briefly went to the community when I heard about this and just now to see what the fuss was and it just seemed like legal but youthful looking people. Or just folks in their mid twenties just trying to look cute or wholesome. I didn't see anything that makes me feel the need to report anything as CSAM. That's just me. I believe you should report content you think is CSAM, I'm not trying to say you shouldn't.
I know I said it before but I really do view this whole thing similar to folks who may not understand forms of kink are consensual. It's not a one-to-one thing, but it is similar. Seeing a consensual rape-play session may make people question what the fuck is happening and may make their skin crawl. But if everyone is consenting then it's fine. I understand why people would have a hard time accepting that (especially if they themselves have been abused).
Lookism is gross, as long as people are grown adults it doesn't matter what they look like nor should it ever matter
We both know you're not looking at someone who looks 12 and thinking "oh my god, what an adult" while you're cranking it, so miss me with that fake enlightened-reddit lookism shit.
Can I ask what the stance is for adults intentionally acting as if the were underage regardless of what they look like? Perhaps that could be a line they could agree with?
"I'll know 'em when I see em."
Not authoritarian at all.
Bang! Bang! Bang!
"Open up for your federally mandated titty check! Those looking for a young-presenting titty exception line up with completed forms!"
That's insane
Wait, ok I need a link to the law or an article about it. That sounds too ridiculous to be true
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_pornography_laws_in_Australia
Just read some of that shit. Hentai cartoons and some 19th century writing.
That's insaaaaane. I mean, the US is too, but in a different way. A cups and squirting both being banned is wild
If the community in question was adorableporn, then this whole thing is crazy. No one in that community looks even remotely underage.
B-but only teenagers can have braces! /s
My 52-yo Filipina gf has lower braces, despite having perfect teeth. When I asked when she was getting them off, she was giggling uncontrollably, "It's a, uh, fashion thing in the Philippines!"
Who knew?!
I think folks forget just how young people in their early 20s can look.
I think TV just skewed how high schoolers and middle schoolers look to the general populace because, at least back in the day, a lot of them were played by grown ass adults.
And how mature some teenagers, especially those past 15, can look. And like NekoRiv said, Dawson Casting isn't helping...
I'd guess it's fauxbait
I just looked at that one too. While the name is unfortunate, no one in there looks remotely underage either.
Totally. It's just vaguely DDLG stuff
This was my assumption too, i chimed in with maybe a similar opinion to this blahaj.zone mod when that community asked for dialogue. And the people there gave pretty good reasoning that im not mad at. I maybe don't want to see the community, but I don't think it makes this instance bad?
I mean I also really don't want see that community and I do find it more offensive than the deluge of celebrity communities.
That being said, I don't quite see how it makes this instance bad either. My 'normal' account's instance also defederated a while back, so I just ended up with this as my sex-related alt.
Thats odd. lemmynsfw is pretty restrictive for a porn site.
My biggest complaint is the number of person-specific subs. Feels like spam.
Natural evolution of a new site, it has to get content somehow in order to grow, only problem is there's not yet enough people to get the good content to overpower the spam.
I've been blocking a ton too.
I've had to block a crap ton of communities because of the spam and low quality content.
Can't wait till we can just block instances ourselves...
That was the takeaway people had even before all of this, that the instance is for the "boring" porn, and all the rest is hidden or contained. There was even a .world post saying they knew lemmy was becoming mainstream because all the furries were being "eradicated" in favor of entry level pornhub and onlyfans fluff.
I think it's good things like this happen. There is a demand for servers with literally no porn for emotional reason, and we now have one more place that is easy to point to for people who share that philosophy. The admin gave the instance more personality. Lemmy needs differentiation.
Yeah it's odd. I get a weirdly prudent vibe from a lot of communities here on Lemmy whenever it comes to the topic of porn. Idk what's up with that.
So if an adult has a childlike appearance, they are not an adult; they are considered a kid. What even is this shit?
Not sure why they think that sub is for women trying to look underage. The vast majority do not look like teenagers at all. Most of them are simply giggly.
🤷♂️
I’ve seen both of these posts now, and it leads me to wonder what is the community? because this sounds like the same situation as the jailbait subreddit a long time ago, and if it’s literally a jailbait community then i’d have to agree with their decision to defederate. hosting jailbait porn is gross, equating that position to bodyshaming is insane.
Jailbait is by definition people that are under legal age, or at least pretending to be. If someone is of legal age they by definition cannot be jailbait. The appeal there is the violation of the statutory taboo, the allure of the forbidden fruit. That is not OK and we won't tolerate that.
If a grownup has a round face and is wearing braces, which is the post that I suspect launched this whole kerfluffle, that's just how they look. I'm not going to tell them that they can't be sexy, or you that you can't be into them being sexy, because of their face or their dental work. Now, you can see why someone might be concerned that someone that has braces might be underage, since many people that are underage have braces. But once we've confirmed that they aren't underage, that should be the end of it.
The dude obviously has never seen /r/braceface
Was it just that one post that caused all this? Honestly I was expecting something way worse not like a single post in a fairly active looking community...
They decided that because they mistook it for CSAM it should be taken down, and the entire community with it.
Because they assumed one image was CSAM.
It’s kinda nuts.
After reading Ada's post and comments there (not removed, many were), it's my opinion the admins there wanted to defederate lemmynsfw anyway and this was a convenient excuse.
Regardless, it's their server. Many users there support the decision. Their right, and if the userbase wants that they've chosen the right instance for them. Those who don't want that outcome will move.
I’m inclined to agree with you. Though I’ll argue that most users over there are agreeing based on a colorful interpretation of what happened, assuming that there is indeed a community based around legal porn meant to look like CSAM… which doesn’t appear to be the case at all. Look at the community in question (adorableporn@lemmynsfw.com) and you’ll notice a lack of anything encouraging people to present as underage.
Adults can be, and often are, adorable.
I wish one side would just post the chat logs between them to clear the air on what really happened.
I'm down if the blahaj admin is.
I got no skin in this game but you totally should reach out and ask her. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ might clear the air on what's up.
I did. Let's see what they say.
Personally I would of just done it after they defederated if it really was as innocent as you make it sound. The story from both sides is kind of sus to me. I have no idea what to think it's either overblow over one picture in one community or part of the story is missing.
Also not calling you out. I would never want to mod a server like this it must already be stressful enough.
I got permission from blahaj so I posted it all.
Cool thanks for being transparent! I'll go make some popcorn 🍿
I've seen it. IMO the side panel explicitly says "childlike" and I can see some might have a problem with that. It suggests the purpose Ada objected to over there. And I think mods and admins might want to change that text such that it makes no reference to underage anyone in the context of porn.
Clearly, all participants are over 18. Good.
I'm the new mod of a few hours at adorableporn@lemmynsfw.com , and i have nothing to hide.
See pinned post https://lemmynsfw.com/post/419923and comments as I was trying to update the community sidebar from a single line to what you see there now, and get feedback. I even have a "under construction" disclaimer.
Btw, the reference came as I was cut/paste from here https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/adorable
Did they change it? I don't see what you're saying is there.
Just went there, the sticky post has a comment suggesting they remove it and the moderator said they removed the phrase. That one was actually something problematic to leave there. Apparently they are changing rules and there's new mods or something
There's a screenshot I included. Posted from Mastodon so maybe the image didn't propagate out to lemmy?
Coming here from Lemmynsfw and I see my screenshot did not propagate. It's ok. I'm sure ActivityPub devs will get the unified timeline down sometime. When will everyone switch to Zot?
I understand the knee jerk reaction... Doesn't federation mean they are potentially possessing copies of that content, hosting it, by being federated?
So, yes. Their instance would have copies of content viewed by their users. That said, they didn’t defederate because of CSAM, which would make perfect sense. They defederated because they made an incorrect assumption, and then wanted an entire community nuked because of that assumption… even after they were corrected.
The moment things were made clear, they should have said “oh okay, our bad.” But instead they doubled down.
But if you had the anxiety and fear in your heart that boots were about to kick in your door, and hell, that you are facilitating the consumption of casm , wood a few DMs really put you at ease?
Empathetically assume you had already accepted the worst was occuring, I believe it would be very hard to adjust course and sleep at night
But if you had the anxiety and fear in your heart that boots were about to kick in your door, and hell, that you are facilitating the consumption of csam , would a few DMs really put you at ease?
Empathetically assume you had already accepted the worst was occuring, I believe it would be very hard to adjust course and sleep at night
I enjoy reading and commenting here, but it is my back of mind fear for federated spaces like Lemmy.
Bad actors could spam suspicious or actual csam.
All it takes is one admin/hoster to be "made example of" to really shake the system.
I hope I'm wrong and ignorant of the realities of the law / prosecution.
Note: I deleted my comment by mistake. X.x
So I think most of the time we would be in the clear, as long as actual CSAM is handled when it is found/reported.
Just like Reddit doesn’t get hauled to court when CSAM is posted. And mods don’t get arrested for viewing it while they are removing it.
I enjoy reading and commenting here, but it is my back of mind fear for federated spaces like Lemmy.
Bad actors could spam suspicious or actual csam.
All it takes is one admin/hoster to be "made example of" to really shake the system.
I hope I'm wrong and ignorant of the realities of the law / prosecution.
We are extremely aware of this possibility and have taken many active steps against it, and we are scrupulously staying on the right side of US law when it comes to reporting potential CSAM. As stated in our FAQ, preventing CSAM on our instance is our highest priority.
Appreciate the verbiage, but I wasn't calling Lemmy nsfw out, I was commenting on the whole big picture
Doesn't federation mean they are potentially possessing copies of that content, hosting it, by being federated?
Media isn't replicated. Lemmy is a link aggregator, posts include links to content and that is what is replicated. The fact that instances let you upload images directly does make that a bit confusing but if you look at a post from one instance on another the posts link is still the image on the original instance and is fetched from there. The only local media from federated instances are the thumbnails that are generated and stored locally. That's still a problem in the instance of some illegal content but less so.
It's the one named braces here I think. adorableporn@lemmynsfw.com
I'm not sure that's equivalent comparison. I'm not sure of the community either, but my understanding is that everyone involved is an adult.
R/jailbait was hosting sexualized content of literal children.
This is closer to blocking a community because you feel that the models under the "teen" category look too young, even though they are all technically adults.
Yeah that's about the size of it.
Probably actually /c/fauxbait
I had this question too. It was adorableporn. It is not remotely comparable to r/jailbait so let’s not jump to conclusions. The lemmynsfw mods are absolutely in the right here.
So much drama about something so silly. If their concerns were valid about the subject models being under age, or trying to appear under age, then that's one thing, but this is starting it boil down to a difference of opinion on what looks like CSAM....
They say yes, you say no, it's a whole thing of everyone having an opinion.
That's fine. Can't control what others decide to do with their servers. They're free to defed if they feel that's the only way to handle it.
IMO, it sucks to see this splintering of the federation over something like this, but it is what it is.
Yeah, like I'm 20 but based on my face some people think I'm 16, and other people don't. Does that magically make my partner a pedo?
Apparently, according to some, yes.
It's dumb. But, they have an opinion, so....
💀 honestly, it feels like sometimes they are so strict on it because they want to prove they aren't
it doesn't make you a pedo it just makes you creepy though
Being creepy is not a crime, calling other people "creepy" just because you don't like what they do with their lives or how they look is prejudiced though
Everyone has biases, and I don't think anyone is advocating for it to be a crime
IMO, preferences for partners should never be taboo. What you do about it can be, but the preference itself is a matter of your individual biological drive.
Some like older individuals, or individuals of the same sex, opposite sex, or somewhere in-between (something more ambiguous); some light skin, dark skin, younger, or they may find certain genetic traits common in certain regions attractive.
NONE of those preferences are wrong in and of themselves. However, in the same breath, I would say ACTING on those preferences or emphasizing specific preferences (most notably attraction to pre-pubescent individuals) is, and should be a crime. Most cultures on earth have set age guidelines for when society is satisfied that an individual is fully matured (some 18, some 16, some older than that, or even younger than that). Once that person has satisfied their societies constraints on the legality of them being sexually active, while some may find their preference uncomfortable or even creepy, provided it doesn't violate the laws, that's all it could be, is uncomfortable or creepy to other observers.
I've seen several times, people being shunned for their preference; I get it often enough. I have a preference towards lighter skinned and/or Caucasian descendent people, who are biologically female and present as such; I'm fairly cis-normative and I recognize that. however, for my preference, I've been branded a racist by some. I want to make it clear that I am not; I have no prejudice towards people based on their skin tone or culture or their heritage, they're just... not my type. I'd also say that I'm a great supporter of human rights, including the right to wed whomever you want, provided it doesn't violate the age laws of your society, regardless of who they are otherwise; and that all individuals regardless of skin color, race, religion, belief, gender identity, sex, or all other factors, should be treated fairly and equally, and with bodily autonomy.
I am an LGBTQ+ ally; and that will never change. Everyone should have the right to be as happy, or as unhappy as everyone else, with all the risks, benefits, and challenges that come with the decisions they make, same as everyone else; with the only exception being the very young who have not reached the age of maturity as governed by the culture and society in which they live, and the relevant laws therein.
Honestly, while there was a lot of progress on calling out abuse and exploitation, everything around teenagers has gotten so charged that not vocally decrying anything that is even in the neighborhood is enough to get piled on. Pornhub now pretends the teen category doesn't exist in their research analytics, most search engines block porn searches for teen, even though it's always referred to legal 18/19 year olds (or late twenties depending on how petite they are).
Like, I don't miss "creepy uncles" being a thing that everyone brushed off, but this hair trigger response is way too much.
Even if your partner did find that attractive that would just mean that they, like the grand majority of the population, are attracted to the sexually mature/maturing 16-18 range. Something like 10 years too old to be pedophilia.
This is a statement of fact not a statement of opinion, nor a statement of acceptance or encouragement. I say this preemptively because there are always those commenters who will attack you personally because they're trying to manufacture outrage. Making it impossible to talk about real world subjects.
It can make pedos attracted to you even though they know you are 20. How. to react to that is of course up to you. But it is something to be aware of.
You might as well argue pouring sugar in your coffee could trigger drug addicts into taking hard drugs again, because white powder.
It's the same argument. Both are equally ridiculous.
Actual abuse should be prosecuted to the fullest extent. But not because it might have incited someone else to break the law. You need an actual victim, with testimony, to conduct an investigation and a prosecution.
I think its probably fine, the only reason I look young is just relatively smooth skin and not much facial hair
TFW you don't even know what pedophilia is, but decide to have an opinion on it anyways.... Of course I'm sure there's a human out there that through some disease or abnormality never went through puberty, and still appear as if they are prepubescent.
You are, however, correct in that attraction is involuntary, it is not something one is able to control, and can have attraction forced upon them.
I believe their argument is that the community is a gathering place for stuff that looks like CSAM as opposed to any of the content looking like CSAM or not. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, but it's important to represent people's arguments correctly.
I appreciate this; I don't disagree with you.
Some would counter with "if it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it's probably a duck"; which is a reasonable argument in and of itself. It wouldn't be unreasonable to suspect that if things are being said that is CSAM affirmative, then it's possible or even likely, that the individuals in question are probably participating in the viewing, distribution, or even production, of such material.
One of the good things about the internet is that it becomes harder to have a group or community so isolated that it's not able to be inspected at a moments notice by anyone with an internet connection; Especially if the content is of a questionable or illegal nature, and the perpetrators of that content's production and distribution are not very intelligent (and bluntly, most don't seem to be). It becomes harder to "hide in plain sight" as it used to be, especially when trying to further your questionable or illegal goals. At some point those individuals need to poke their head into the public spaces to try to recruit more people who are sympathetic to their goals, and by doing so, they can readily be found, investigated and hopefully charged and imprisoned for their activities.
If there is any CSAM on any lemmy instance, or people perpetrating CSAM via lemmy, I hope the individuals who are engaged in any related activity are caught, charged and imprisoned for their actions.
What's up with that instance? All I ever see is drama coming from them.
Admins are clearly pants on head stupid and looking for outrage everywhere.
Manufactured outrage is largely to blame for a lot of the cultural war issues that we deal with these days...
Finding something to be outraged at for finding someone to be outraged on behalf of even if the person who you are now acting for has no feelings of the sort. All it is is a brand new form of red herring politics that drains energy from real problems that we could be solving.
It's self-serving and encourages and even drives toxicity.
It's so fucking pathetic. You know these people are insufferable little whiners in real life.
ahem skirt on head
It's 2023. Women are allowed to wear pants if they want to.
we live in a postpants world
Good point!
this community (adorableporn) is allowed on reddit and has 2.1m members there. why would you try to be more holy than the pope?
if it's ok for reddit and every ad company, then maybe this comm isn't that bad
maybe that admin was just flustered that their CSAM allegation was wrong and were unable to stop their demands from that point.
if that admin actually believes in their allegations: you can't ban young adults from presenting themselves in a sexpositive way.
aren't femboys also the same thing? it is a community of people that bases their identity on having youthful girlish looks. being "adorable" is also a goal of them.
I posted this a few minutes ago, but I think this is a great example of how the Fediverse should work. That instance had issues, they expressed them and the Admins of this instance did their due diligence. The other instance defederated as is their right, and if any of their users still want to participate, they can spin up a new account here, or on any number of other servers. I think this is true free speech in action, the posters haven't been banned, blocked or told to stop. The ones with the problem have removed themselves from the conversation.
they removed themselves from a lot more conversations than simply the adorableporn one.
i don't think this is how the fediverse should work, you have a problem with one community, you block the entire instance for all your users.
From what i understand the blahaj admins had no problems with the other communities here, but the entire instance is blocked there now.
nsfw content is always an afterthought tho on social media and always gets cut down in some way for the greater platform. that's why i value the ability to make an account here a lot.
I'm sorry if you though I disagreed with you. I have no interest in the content in question. I don't personally like it, or agree with it. I also don't want it banned, blocked, or censored. I'm a middle aged gay guy, and I have most of this instance blocked since I only want to interact with other gay men. Thats literally free speech. Your users can post/say what want, if it offends anyone/they can remove themselves from said content via blocking or reporting.
Edit:
Also, blaha doesn't allow downvotes because that could discourage people from posting and getting support when needed. So it's impossible to see how far allies have reported and downvoted the assholes trying to hurt the innocent.
This reminds me of how they essentially banned sex work of women with small breasts in Australia because of a poorly written law
Some people can't help but project their filthy minds onto other
Breasts of all sizes are perfectly healthy and normal
The thing I don’t get is they seem to host plenty of nsfw material themselves that would fall under that category of “child-like”. I’m not going to argue the specifics on where the line should be drawn, but I feel like they should at least moderate their own communities properly before such action against content that’s no worse than theirs
I mean, the real issue is that it's entirely subjective. Once they confirmed that the material in question was in fact legal, that should have been the end of it. I already think that regulating hentai is dumb, but taking issue with real women's bodies like Australia did?
I mean seriously, what's the point of drawing the line at 18, if you're gonna ignore the line because women don't magically shapeshift on their 18th birthday? The whole premise of legality is on age, not appearance.
It is within their right to defederate from anyone as they please.
Totally. They even have to right to be dead wrong about the reason, which they’ve exercised.
Well shit. As a horny queer person I am active on both of these instances and I'm not sure how to feel about this.
As a horny queer person I, too, wish that this had gone a different way.
If you really want to you can just make an account on either side of the divide. They’re free.
I actually already have accounts on both. It's just one of those weird things of federation that I can't see one side from my account on the other anymore.
I think this is a perfect example of what federation is all about. If the Admins of one community are unhappy with the decisions of another they are free to voice that, and if they and their users want to defederate, they can. Personally, I just block all communties that aren't man and cock centered, and have no interest in anyone under 21, so try and block those too.
Couldn't agree more. I think thinking about the fediverse as separate websites - separate entities - that happen to share (a lot of) data makes it make sense. They're running their website, they can choose to show or not show whatever they like.
They said that you were okay with the fact that users were specifically trying to make it seem like they were underage. Good to hear the other side of the story.
I explicitly denied that several times, as you can see.
Their misrepresentation of your position is arguably slander in the legal sense in that it attributes a criminal intent to you. I would not be cool with their statement remaining as is. They can say that y’all disagreed about whether it was child fetishization in the first place, which is accurate.
Yeah their reasoning for defederating is kinda dumb, but luckily anyone can just make a separate account for lemmynsfw so nothing really is lost. I kinda don't even see why someone would leave nsfw enabled on their main account, like do you wanna have sexy photos mixed in with your news, cat pictures, Hobby-communities?
Maybe I'm a weirdo but I actually prefer nsfw stuff on my main account too. Most of my feed on the old site was distressing news (climate change, war, politics etc) and made me feel awful in the way social media is uniquely adept at.
On Lemmy I still see that stuff but it's interspersed with boobs, which I find really lifts my mood
I mean, this is my main account.
Most news seems to be doom and gloom so I enjoy the occasional tit pic thrown in there to break up the stream of depressing content.
Obviously I would just turn off nsfw when in public, but otherwise having it mixed in is nice.
Honestly, one of my biggest gripes was when Reddit removed nsfw content from r/all instead of using the "don't show nsfw content" switch, or defaulting to r/popular which was supposed to be the sfw replacement.
Like you said, having the occasional happy little titty in between dire commentary on the state of the world and climate just helped make things a little brighter.
There are a couple nsfw communities on lemmy.blahaj.zone. It’s a very lgbt, sex positive server. I will miss being able to see them from here though
You can still see them from here. Defederation is one-way. It just means, if you comment/vote on any post from there, the comment won't spread to other instances.
I was under the impression that servers would push posts to other servers, and defederating would stop that
From my (admittedly limited) understanding, the servers pull posts when someone requests them rather than them being actively pushed, which happens regardless of federation status since all those posts and comments are publicly accessible. It was part of the whole "defederate meta's Threads" debate.
It's like spokes on a wheel rather than peer to peer. Defederation means it stops pulling content in. So folks from other instances besides lemmynsfw.com won't see comments made from lemmynsfw.com on blahaj communities. Only folks from lemmynsfw.com will.
Depends on the sexiness of the photo really
I feel sorry for the poor blahaj name.
I've posted it a few times in the past few minutes, but I think this is the perfect example of how and why the Fediverse works. The Blaha moderators are trying to make a safe space for everyone, with a special focus on those who slip through the cracks. I'm actually surprised they stayed federated as long as they did with LemmyNSWW. I think they reached out with the best intentions, and just didn't know how to respond with the info given, and that went a little viral. But, like I said, they should have deferated a while ago due their being NSFW content as default.
Hey, this Stanford Report on CSAM in the Fediverse might explain why instance admins are nervous about even the appearance of illicit content.
https://stacks.stanford.edu/file/druid:vb515nd6874/20230724-fediverse-csam-report.pdf
That's valid, but Ada didn't mention anything about the legalese, and specifically said it's not about the technicalities and more about her personal beliefs
It's also quite weird that she was making this statement about that completely innocent comm
The clear intent is to appeal to people looking for underage porn
when it might've otherwise been valid for fauxbait; that's an actually concerning comm, though the pics there are clearly watermarked with and taken from well known adult sites at least.
fyi, the current Stanford President just resigned after he was caught falsifying research data
OK. But that has nothing to do with this report. Is he listed as one of the authors?
Correct. The president's specialty was biology, and the authors of the report are in the internet observatory department.
He oversaw the internet observatory
it very much is relevant, also one of the authors is David Thiel, the POS who turned facebook into a conservative hellhole
It means I'd question anything Stanford does for awhile and take it with a grain of salt, the report itself is also deeply flawed.
I took the trouble to read the report. What in there is deeply flawed?
I don't have a problem with lemmnsfw.com and find a lot of the material to be tasteful pornography. I rather agree with no body and image shaming. While my instance doesn't host any communities yet, I see no reason federate with them as similar communities can be found on other instances with much less heavy-handed tactics. I'll wash my hands of https://lemmy.blahaj.zonein solidarity.
I appreciate the relative civility coming from both sides here. There's room enough in the fediverse for as many Lemmy instances as we require. Nobody should be forced to do something that they don't want to do whether that be to host content or to moderate content. I encourage users to respect the decisions of both instances.
FauxBait should definitely be purged though. WTF is that?!?
It's 18+ girls, you can literally see the watermark on every post
The title is a bit weird though, but everything you think is questionable can easily be googled without an issue because it's not illegal
Faux literally means fake or false.
Please keep reading all the way down to the bottom of the sidebar WRT titling...
Naked petite adults that look like 17/18/19 year klds by the looks of it.
I assume the controversy is that these people appear as if they are not quite 18 yet. Which, remember, is not child porn, even if they where 17 depending on your western country.
That's besides the point though, as they appear to all be consenting adults, making such a point moot anyways.
It should be purged why?
Personally, my preference is women with smaller breasts. But while that's my preference, I have never though, yay, they look like jail bait breasts. That's some sick shit. I just prefer smaller breasts because I get bored of bigger ones. I feel like there's a pressure to always do something with them when they're such a small part of the overall package. Anyone that can't see FauxBait is marketing itself as pedo-fodder has a problem.
agreed - wtf
Beehaw and others doesn't have problems with communities, but Blahaj somehow found something wrong. Strange.
After reading both admin statements I'm not sure which side I fall on. Both raise legitimate concerns.
On one hand, it's incredibly shitty to shame someone for how they look, regardless of what they're doing.
On the other hand, fetishizing childlike appearances is also pretty skeevy, even if everyone is an adult.
However, my understanding is that this is how the fediverse is designed to operate.
Everyone has the ability to host whatever content they want and also choose which instances they want to see content from.
Blahaj.zone isn't going anywhere and if you still want to see the stuff there, there are numerous instances that can let you do that. Accounts are free.
Looking through the alleged community (adorableporn@lemmynsfw.com) I’m really not seeing anything that looks inherently like it could be misinterpreted as CSAM.
A lot of people are taking it at face value that fetishizing childlike appearances even happened here, which it has not. This instance’s rules ban even fictive depictions of the underage. Drawings, anything.
No one disagrees that fetishizing children is bad. No one. What you have here is the blahaj mods flipping out and thinking that this occurred when it did not. They even falsely claimed that the admins here are okay with that happening, which they are not.
Let’s not dignify their position by accepting their false premise and then saying “you know they kinda have a point.”
I am almost 100% aligned with you but I think there is a point to make that there are differences between the right for any adult to create sensual and sexual desire no matter their body type AND gathering and fetichising on young looking bodies or adult bodies that could be perceived as juvenile
drumming up lynch mobs against people who didn't do anything wrong because "it's not CSAM but you want it to be". This is just a moral crusade against consenting adults, it's 100% bullshit, and the person who made the call in blahaj is now going through the announcement thread for the call and deleting dissenting opinions.
👍
This is genuine issue with the fediverse. Many instances could gang up and defederate from an instance and all the voices on that instances are essentially censored, like a typical centralised social media
It is not censorship to say that I will not let you use my resources that I bought, pay monthly fees for, and spend a chunk of my life to maintain, so you can to spread your message. That's fucking unhinged. Come back to reality.
Is it censorship when I choose not to click on a link? What if I have a live stream and people are watching me, is it censorship then? No??? Same fucking thing. My hardware. My server. I get the last say on what runs on it. That's not censorship, that's not even close.
on the plus side lemmynsfw is safe from admins that are hostile to nsfw in general. most social media platforms had a nsfw purge of some kind in the past.
making a second account for nsfw is what i do for the other platforms anyways. with most lemmy apps and some web frontends, using multiple accounts is pretty easy as well.
if by "censored" you mean "still perfectly accessible to anyone who wants to read or participate but no longer being actively promoted by strangers". So, you know, not at all censored.
I don't get the obsession with wanting as many communities as possible federated with LemmyNSFW. Nobody's going to use their account from another instance to post here...
In fact, many people do.
Why not? Be brave.
The home instance for this account is reddthat.com, so I use an account from another instance to post here (granted, it's my account for porn stuff).
I haven't looked for that comm and won't, but it sounds intended to attract viewers with pedo tendencies. Whether that's a safe outlet or a red flag, idk. I do know that Reddit and other sites go apeshit banning even erotic fiction with underage characters. I have heard they do that not from concern that the fiction could be illegal per se, but rather that they don't want to create a pedo magnet that could then bring the pedos into contact with actual underage users.
OTOH, I know that AO3 chose not to have such a rule. IDK if that has led to any bad stuff in real life. I hope not, of course.
“I don’t know anything about this and I won’t educate myself directly, but I’ll give you my uninformed hot take nonetheless…”
adorableporn@lemmynsfw.com is the community mentioned in the Matrix chat screenshots which Ada (from Blahaj) has said are accurate.
that comm has 2.1m members on reddit.
every poster already needs to prove that the person in the post is an adult and that the person posted these nsfw pics in full consent.