People outside the US, do you still consider America a democracy?
1y 3mon ago by lemmy.world/u/Clinicallydepressedpoochie in asklemmy
What is your line in the sand?
Edit: thank you all for your responses. I think it's important as an American we take your view points seriously. I think of a North Korean living inside of North Korea. They don't really know how bad it is because that is all hidden from them and they've never had anything else. As things get worse for Americans it's important to have your voices because we will become more and more isolated.
Even the guy who said, "lol." Some people need that sort of sobering reaction.
I grew up in the US and have lived outside it for 10 years now. I would agree with this. Voting and representation have never been total and is definitely less available for many groups. Further things are being stripped away.
Yeah. My wake-up call was quite early in life, when SCOTUS handed the election to GWB. If I was born a generation earlier I'd have called it with Watergate. If I was an ancestor currently dead, I would have called it around the time an assassin put the presidency in the hands of the opposite party, and a drunk asshole subsequently decided reconstruction efforts should fail. Or possibly just prior, when we somehow decided not to hang every man Jack of the confederacy for treason.
Edit: an earlier still version of me would have overseen the death of a culture brought on by poxy mad white religious extremists, and laughed ruefully to hear that centuries later the utter bastardy continues unchanged.
This
exactly, two party system completely pulls the pants down for top1% lobbyism to be rampantly in control
also the media influence on elections is out of control
See, as a German, when I see a country go down the same route as the Weimar Republic after handing over the power to the Nazi party, I think it's just very obvious. Hitler took some two months to completely destroy democracy, and the US are juuust in the middle of that. History doesn't repeat, but sometimes it rhymes, and the similarities are just remarkable.
So yeah, I guess that would be a big fat trench in the sand.
still consider
It has only two political parties, and a weird system where all votes are not equal and the actual vote majority doesn't always win.
It has frequently had multiple people from the same families running for office, and only wealthy people have a shot. Corporations get to lobby for laws in their favour.
It also spies on its own citizens, holds people indefinitely without trial, has a huge prison population, a militarized police with a high homicide rate, and is the only western nation with the death penalty.
Trump and Musk are laying bare how fragile the veneer of "democracy" really is in that country.
To be honest, not even from the start was it a true democracy, the Electoral College is a layer on top of democracy to give different weight to each vote.
A struggling democracy, in the beginning of an Orban/Hungary-like overtake of the country.
Its possible to revert, but you seem to have atleast a 1/3 of the country that would walk down a straight up facist line willingly and happily do so.
You need to fix your shit america.
Line in the sand? Going after political opponents. Censoring information. Dismantling media. Abandoning rule of law. Business and government mixing too much.
USA is speed running these.
I consider it an autocratic regime with strong fascist characteristics.
I consider America to be a plutocracy, which successfully propagandized the majority with the illusion of democracy, now transitioning into a Christian fascist kleptocracy... Basically a mafia state / corporate dictatorship using religion to control the masses (as is tradition).
If you think it's not very Christian, that's because most Christians consider Jesus's teachings to be evil communism.
Am Dutch. I have considered the US an incomplete democracy since I learned about voting in school. It’s not one person one vote, which to me is crucial for a democracy. The US right now is still a nation of laws, but democracy is sharply in decline. The voter-roll issues and Gerrymandering come to mind immediately. Not to mention the fact that guaranteed access to polls has been pulled by the courts. Which is insane to me.
Also president having so much power was clearly never democratic to begin with as we can see it all play out now.
The power of the president did not start out like this. Congress kept giving their power to the executive for political reasons.
It happened over centuries.
$ is votes, who could have seen where that would go.
Canadian here.
Before Trump? Ehhh, not really. I've always viewed the US as a place where you vote for which oligarch-backed monarch you'd want to put in absolute power for 4 years. Every 4/8 years the new incoming overlord just rips up whatever the previous one did and nothing of substance is actually achieved.
After Trump 2.0? No. There isn't a snowball's chance in hell that Trump is going to surrender all that power he and the GOP have accumulated. And why would he? He doesn't have to. He literally controls every branch of government that he can and ignores those that he doesn't. If the US ever has another election it will purely be for show, like China's elections. The mask is now fully off and the charade of US democracy is over as those who actually wield the power now do so openly on their sleeves.
China's democracy is among party members.
Oh I love parties! I'll bring the glowsticks!
Absolutely not. A two party system was barely nominally a form of democracy. Current government walks like a dictatorship and quacks like a dictatorship. They might hold a fake election one day like many of those do, but still no.
Firstly, the USA is obviously not a "dictatorship". Come on, be serious. Words mean things.
Second, America's two-party system also has internal factions and primaries, many of them completely open (you don't even need to declare allegiance to the party). The primaries are effectively the first round in a two-round electoral system (of which there are plenty in the world). The whole point is to create a binary choice in the final round. For some reason this always gets missed by otherwise informed observers. "There are only two parties" is just not a valid argument in this debate.
Of course, none of these facts will be popular here, since the real point of this thread is to allow participants to performatively dump on the shared hate-object. Classic social media, I get it.
Firstly, the USA is obviously not a "dictatorship".
You sure about that? Have you read the news lately?
Yeah I have and saying that kinda just makes you seem uninformed.
Like the people who call the US "a 3rd world country in a Gucci belt". It just makes it super obvious that you don't understand how high quality of a life the average person has in the US. Especially globally.
I'm not going to list all the red flags, but there is a reason people feel like this. A few major ones, president talking about taking over other countries out of the blue, attacking our allies to the point where Americans are suffering much more than necessary, his sidekick doing Nazi salutes on stage, literal commercials for his $idekick on the white house lawn.
It's pretty clear there is no rule of law for blatant corruption and no accountability. Replace USA/Trump with Russia/Putin or NK/Un, guess what, same shit, different smell. Either follow orders or get shipped out is the example they're trying to set, as well as making free speech illegal.
We're FAR from a functioning democracy.
Well think about a lot of the characteristics of the US and maybe you'll at least see where they're coming from. It's not about 100% accuracy as much as perspective. And it seems like it'd hard to shatter illusions some people there have.
High poverty rate compared to developed countries, low literacy rates compared to developed countries, Highly authoritarian, highly propagandised, militia compounds spread throughout.
You you can be taken and imprisoned in a desert camp, fed expired food, put in a chain gang and not that it would be OK otherwise, but you haven't been convicted of a crime.
Constant terrorist attacks.
You can be put in solitary until you have psychosis and youre smearing feces on the walls, and then the confessions you give after that can be used in court.
There was a mass protest of slave Labour and the slaves were starved until they went back to work.
You can be disappeared and have your residency revoked for protesting war crimes. You had someone who worked in your torture camps run to be a candidate for president and they got far.
Child marriage is legal.
People are sent back to a polluted industrial hazard town after train derailment and all the animals are dead and they're complaining of chemical burns. If they complain the get dragged out by cops.
Food standards not accepted elsewhere. Companies can poison large parts of the population and even if they're punished its an amount that still means the profited from it
They took a guy who promoted health misinformation that led to dead kids and they put him in charge of health, even though a worm ate his brain.
Expansionist, aggressive, worships the military but fucks over veterans, complains about first responders injured on the job getting health care, so they scrapped it. Constantly chasing culture was BS, never quite left the satanic panic.
The USA is categorized by people who have studied this subject more closely than you (or me) as a flawed democracy. This is a dumb discussion. That's all I have to say here.
I don't discuss with people who downvote my comments. You clearly don't care what I have to say. Good night.
I don't discuss with people who downvote my comments.
So you only discuss with yourself?
You clearly don't care what I have to say.
There is some truth in that, I only pay attention to people who have a valid point.
How do we see who downvotes?
I know they had that on kbin but not Lemmy. I want to see it too. Which client or frontend are you using?
I just extrapolated. Their comment was posted at the same time as a downvote.
If they denied it I would apologize.
That's disappointing. It would be a useful tool to have. Apparently the info is available in ActivityPub, we just need a client that sees it.
You think? I don't much care about downvotes. But I do end conversations if I suspect that that other party is doing it.
I'd rather simply know if someone is downvoting my conversation with them. There's no point playing guessing games in an active thread.
The other application for it is seeing if someone is constantly upvoting themself with multiple accounts, and seeing who is upvoting trolls and nazis.
In practice, however, it is a two-party system.
Its not about popular. You are simply wrong.
The primaries that are not required to be democratic and can simply be rigged by the party?
I wouldn't call America a dictatorship yet, but I would claim that it is heading there at a rapid pace. Trump and Republicans actions such as disregarding the Constitution, removing rights, beginning mass deportations including legals, bringing in a billionaire to shred the government, and ignoring court orders is not a good look for a democratic government.
Yes, I know all that and I completely agree. It's all but impossible to imagine that the USA will ever be an actually dictatorship, despite the ignorant shrieking around here. Because of its traditions of individual freedom and federalism.
But it's obviously looking less and less like democracy.
While I don't consider the system of governance there very good, I'll have to agree. While I do absolutely worry for the American democracy, it isn't a dictatorship in its current form. I also agree that the primaries do make the system better and more democratic. I still think that the two part system is abysmal, but the primaries do make the claim to democracy stronger.
That's a balanced and fair-minded take. Unfortunately it won't be appreciated here, because what people are looking for in this thread is catharsis and confirmation of their biases.
Absolutely not. When laws don't apply to the president, the jig is up. Trump clearly plans to be in power forever. Either there won't be elections or they'll be rigged.
all those images of venezualen immigrants .... being handled like the absolute worst possible being.. its crazy
When was the US the last time a democracy?
You can vote democrats or republicans, which mostly get bankrolled by the same rich assholes. As a normal citizen of the US you have almost no influence at politics at all, because the media is controlled by rich people, the biggest internet platforms are controlled by rich people, elections are paid for by rich people, ...
The current situation is not a spontaneous, miraculous, magical result of Trump and his gang, it was years in the making by lobby groups, influential/rich/powerful people and neo liberal brainwashing of the masses.
Same holds true for most other western so called democracies.
I never considered it a democracy. It's one-party system with two parties, what can be democratic about it? Smoke and mirrors.
The US had always been a questionable democracy with the hyperfixation on the president and just two parties setting the agenda, but I'd argue that it's still a democracy, though it is a rapidly deteriorating one.
I barely considered it a democracy as a two party system as the elites controlled it all, but now it's just even more messed up. They need to hold people accountable and not elect criminals to office.
I fear for the future of America as a country.
lol
Nope, it's an oligarchy pretending it's a democracy.
Anyone who is eligible to vote, and chooses not to, implicitly throws their support behind whoever wins.
On 2024-11-05, ⅔ of US citizens who were eligible to vote told the rest of the world they don’t want to be taken seriously for at least 2 years.
I consider it a faux democracy. It still has the semblance of one, with people voting, believing they matter and that they have actual free speech, but the masses are being, increasingly less subtly, controlled by media corporations and rendered incapable of critical, independent thinking by an ever decreasing quality of education.
Don't be fooled though! This isn't happening in the US alone. It is widespread all over the globe. The US is simply doing it in a smarter, more cunning way, while leading the wealthy 1% in other countries by example.
To me it never really was. If you look into how they do voting here, its insane, really.
US citizens always loved to make these "we'll bomb some democracy in to you" but they never brought democracy either. I think it's fair to say that no other country started asa y dictatorships as the US has
Add to that;
Bush lost the election and became president anyway.
Trump has heen successfully lying his way through the past four years (and well, yeah the 4 years before that too) instigated an insurrection and was never held accountable
So many people not reading the "people outside the US" part.
I am outside the US, not a citizen, just someone whose life constantly seems to be affected by shitty US politics
The amount of voter suppression, the broken FPTP system and mass media influence over the US electoral system, means that for all intents and purposes, the USA federal election is just picking your favourite of the two viable owning-class-endorsed candidates. "The people" never had a realistic chance of representation or empowerment. This is not a new critique, it's been discussed for at least a century and a half.
There is simply no real value in calling the USA a democracy at any point during our lifetimes, regardless of whether you are allowed to vote or even write-in candidates, regardless of the two-party system, because the power imbalance between the working class and the owning class surrounding that vote makes it as much a sham election as Russia's sham elections. But even compared to other (until recently) close allies, the US implementation of federal voting has long been an absolute circus.
It hasn't been a democracy since it had the 'electoral college' and unequal representation. So, forever..
But within the context of the previous status quo - I'd say it stopped being a democracy exactly when Trump was allowed to be a candidate for the presidency after the Jan 6 coup attempt, and parallel attempts to invent votes and pressure states to lie about their vote counts. Which was blatantly unconstitutional and illegal. More than enough evidence to bar him from being a candidate, and yet the senate allowed it to proceed - that was the end.
Not at all, you are just an autocracy now but don't fully realise it, and as the other commentator had said, not even really a good democracy in the loosest of terms before this entire mess going on ATM!
Not since I saw this graph:
From this paper:
This was published in 2014, back when Obama was in office.
The institutions are completely captured. Yes, even the ones you thought were on your side all this time.
I am a bit too dumb to understand that graph and asked ai for an explanation. It helped me, maybe it also helps others:
This graph comes from a study by Gilens and Page that examines how different groups influence U.S. policy decisions. It has three separate charts, each showing how policy adoption (whether a policy is enacted) relates to the preferences of different groups:
1. Average Citizens’ Preferences (top chart)
2. Economic Elites’ Preferences (middle chart)
3. Interest Group Alignments (bottom chart)
Breaking It Down:
• X-axis:
• In the first two graphs, it represents how much each group supports a policy (from 0% to 100%).
• In the third graph (Interest Groups), the x-axis shows alignment, with negative values meaning opposition and positive values meaning support.
• Y-axis:
• The left y-axis (dark line) shows the predicted probability of a policy being adopted.
• The right y-axis (gray bars) shows how often different levels of support occur in the data (percentage of cases).
Key Takeaways & Surprises:
1. The top chart (Average Citizens) is nearly a flat line.
• This means that whether the general public strongly supports or opposes a policy has little impact on whether it gets adopted.
2. The middle chart (Economic Elites) has a rising curve.
• This suggests that policies supported by the wealthy have a much higher chance of being adopted.
3. The bottom chart (Interest Groups) also shows a strong upward trend.
• The more interest groups align in favor of a policy, the more likely it is to be adopted.
Big Picture:
This graph suggests that the opinions of average citizens have little to no effect on policy decisions, while economic elites and interest groups have significant influence. This challenges the idea that the U.S. operates as a true democracy where the will of the majority decides policy.
Average citizens banding together into interest groups is a pretty common way to get things passed, and this chart agrees.
That is not what the paper means by "interest groups".
No and it hasn't been for a long time. As long as you can buy influence via lobbying then the playing field is not level.
The difference this time is they are not trying to hide it anymore
Not for quite some time now. Not since I learned about the electoral college.
If a presidential candidate can lose an election and still become president, it's not a democracy.
Why should all the densely populated urban centers be the only people with control over the federal election?
How can you be a democracy if you have only two political parties?
With one not giving a fuck, and the other severely fractured due to conflicting ideals none the less
I'm inside the US, and the federal government is most certainly no longer a democracy. It still has all the trappings, but corruption will ensure that the will of the people is secondary to whatever those in power want - even more than has been the case in the past. Locally, democracy is still practiced, in places like blue states.
No but this isn't recent. My line in the sand was Russian interference in the 2016 US election that came to light in 2018.
*United States Democracy Index
The answer depends of the reference point. I was born in Russia (I'm living abroad from 2022) and compared to the putin's dictatorship US is a democracy. You guys still have a freedom of speech, not fake opposition to Trump and independent courts. From the other side, most of the countries are democracies if compared to Russia..
Absolutely not. A country where two parties are the only two viable electoral options, is absolutely not a democracy. Doesn’t mean I’ll stop my membership for the PSL.
What does PSL stand for?
Plus Sized Lobsters
Pink Sexy Lizards
Party for Socialism and Liberation.
Pumpkin Spice Latte
Pacific South Lest
.ml dipshits who spam "nato aggression" memes
It was never a democracy.
First off, I'm an American. Born a stone's throw from the location of one of the critical events in the history of the American revolution.
To answer the question, no. Leaving aside the whole Republic versus democracy argument, my point of realization was when one party seized upon a minor technical issue and disenfranchised countless voters via lawsuit, sufficient to allow the race to be called in their favor.
I'm sure there are many readers who believe I'm talking about 2016. For those readers, your keyword search is "hanging Chad".
Another key search from the same events is "Brooks Brothers Riot".
Wow, this happens before I was born, had no idea this shit happened before.
Wrelcome to what the few of us paying attention have been trying to shout at everyone else for a quarter century.
One interesting thing I haven't read here yet (haven't read all the comments though) is religion. Sure, officially there's separation of church and state, but Christianity is everywhere in your country, including government. The amount of times I've heard "God bless the United States" being said is ridiculous. To me, that's undemocratic and I would feel very uncomfortable with that as an atheist.
Yeah, it's a cheap knock off Christianity, too. It's just there for the subjugation of people who cannot be bothered to think for themselves.
Christianity Lol
No my friend these people worship Mammon. They were taught to believe it was god
Of course you would be uncomfortable with that because you're an atheist... You're an atheist. The US has freedom of religion, this freedom also applies to government officials.
Nope Trump proved yet again the US is a Russian puppet today earlier in the week Ukraine destroyed a huge Russian Oil plant. Now a few days later Trump is giving them a Ceasefire against energy targets which Putin supposedly broke just a mere 3 hours later.
If anything this proves two things Ukraine really hurt them with that attack and Trump is again proving he's Putins lapdog and acting outright against Ukraine and Europe.
Actually saw some combat footage of that Ukraine attack and it looked almost like a nuke, from what I remember it's a 1000km ranged missile called Neptune.
Yes, but a bad example of one very quickly heading towards autocracy. Some characteristics like screwing up your own economy and blaming 'the foreigners' rings a distant bell.
Not for a long time. The Economist Democracy Index demoted the US to a "flawed democracy" since 2016, where it has been ever since.
Democracy index, 2024 - https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/democracy-index-eiu
On paper, I guess so? In reality, and as is the case with pretty much every developed democracy, money and technology make a mockery of the whole idea. A society in which billionaires can buy their way into the Whitehouse - literally - is no democracy.
on paper.. .checks paper Democratic People's Republic of Korea... checks out
Speaking on the federal level (have less of a view on the local and state level). It was a very flawed democracy, and it's descending a less and less functioning system as we speak, moving towards some form of fascism/techno feudalism.
It is still a democracy, but that democracy is in crisis. You will know over the next 2/years if it will survive, although the next federal election will be the real test.
- if the judicial and congress still share power,
- if elections are still fair.
Democracies can recover if they keep their representation.
Elections in the US aren't really all that fair TBH.
Researchers at the Brookings Institution agree that the strategic manipulation of our electoral process is largely to blame for the erosion of US democracy in recent years. Brookings says this manipulation takes various forms: the intentional addition of administrative barriers to voting, unfairly drawing electoral maps, the subversion of the election certification and counting process, and the violent coup attempt on January 6, 2021.
The United States is experiencing two major forms of democratic erosion in its governing institutions:
- Strategic manipulation of elections. Distinct from “voter fraud,” which is almost non-existent in the United States, election manipulation has become increasingly common and increasingly extreme. Examples include election procedures that make it harder to vote (like inadequate polling facilities) or that reduce the opposing party’s representation (like gerrymandering).
- Executive aggrandizement. Even a legitimately elected leader can undermine democracy if they eliminate governmental “checks and balances” or consolidate power in unaccountable institutions. The United States has seen substantial expansions of executive power and serious efforts to erode the independence of the civil service. In addition, there are serious questions about the impartiality of the judiciary.
https://www.brookings.edu/articles/understanding-democratic-decline-in-the-united-states/
One thing that I think they may have missed in this analysis is erosion from the inside. Our supreme Court overturned or instituted a couple major rules that have allowed corporations to funnel billions of dollars directly to politicians with citizens united decision, then helped erode administrative functions of government by overturning Chevron deference. When you combine that shit with the way we allow corporate lobbying in the US, we're not even close to "democracy" in this shit hole. It's a corporate oligarchy masquerading as a republic/democracy. Corporations own this country, the government protects them, that bullshit you hear about the "land of the free" is about corporations not individuals.
No. I agree with the comment about the electoral system and gerrymandering as fundamental issues. And the current administration does not respect the judiciary branch, that much is clear, and their actions are completely undermining the supposed divisions of power, without which there is no democracy.
I really never did, not a well functioning at least. They've practiced voter repression for decades, and then they had fun testing how low they could go after 9/11, doing a lot of unlawful shit, going after citizens who spoke out against their policies and wars.
Maybe a flawed democracy at best and it's getting worse every day. At least on federal level, I don't much about states politics. Not really an expert but democracy can't really work that well if you are stuck in a two party system. Having more choice would sure help against populists and autocrats.
Never have
Unfortunately, it's still a democracy. The electorate wanted what's now going on. That could rapidly change at this point, but for now not yet.
Democracy is a sliding scale and the US is still on it. Could the people choose something different without resorting to violent revolution and protest? Yes
I'm a bit skeptical about this argument because autocratic states love to hold practically fake and forced elections with 90 or 99 % approval and use that as justification.
I think the possibly final test for American democracy will be the midterm elections in two years. By then, I think that either trump will have broken the system enough to get a sham election, or we'll see real, verifiable push-back against him. International organisations that monitor elections will probably take part in shaping my opinion on whether the election is fair or not. I think it's worth remembering that whenever countries hold "fake and forced elections" there are plenty of international observers that point out the major rigging going on.
Sure, but that’s not the case in the US
Unfortunately yes. People wanted this. They still want this. But people were also cheering for like, Mao even after he put millions of his own citizens into the ground, so who knows
I still believe there are democracies in America but the US of A aren't one of them.
Nyet.
I consider it a lesser democracy / something that barely qualifies for a few years now.
The next election will tell, my tin hat is on Puting the US into a situation where an election can't be held so they can have a third term.
I'm not sure even with a successful election and it going to the democrats we'll be able to tell. At least from today's view. It will largely depend on how institutions and the justice/court system can hold out against the current administration right now and during this phase.
I feel like they may have already created damage that won't be cleared just from one election or one election period's fixups.
At the same time, hopefully, this is the wake-up call for opposition and a transformation one way or another. It's plainly obvious what is happening now, and I am hoping opposition will become more apparent and prevalent because of it. Not just in citizens, but institutions too.
I am inside and I want to get out
Same. Is there a sign up sheet, or...?
No, unfortunately.
I do. On my imaginary scale around 4 out of 10. So far the mess looks to me like it was voted in.
No.
No. I also don't consider the United States to be a democracy.
There is not. He would have to be impeached by the senate, and then convicted by the majority of the Senate. Since the majority are currently his sycophants, it's effectively not an option.
Yes. But becoming more flawed by the day
Ignoring court orders, and "fake national emergency declarations" to create war and international extortion and remove rights and citizenships for deportations crossed the line. The voter suppression/rigging that won election for Trump is also clearly anti-democratic, but anti-democratic as usual. Media/oligarchy/Israel influence/disinformation might not make for an ideal democracy, but also "democracy as usual".
The big problem with the world is the US empire's manufacturing of hatred/war against "those who are less democratic than us and our colonies" Corruption of democracy in US, who can cheaply manipulate democracy in its colonies, means that you don't have functional democracy either. US praises the most violently oppressive apartheid ethnostates suspending federal and local elections as great democracies if they support US wars. There is something wrong when the most important issue of your government is to increase divisiveness/threats to the US's enemies when the US unjustifiably threatens you, and that thrills you as right track.
So, democracy is simply not working at bringing progressiveness and shared prosperity, or even the most basic understanding of humanist/national interests, to those who say they love it so much. This is global collapse level of delusion. Nations doing best economically are those distancing themselves from US colonial control.
The more objective measure of "good government" is control against oligarchist pillaging, while having pluralism/sustainability, and economic constructiveness. US approved democracies are failing hard on these metrics. Warmongering based on "blanket, evidence free, refusal to accept election results when non-CIA candidate wins" is not the democratic/liberal ideal you think it is.
Just going to leave this here.
Is demos how you say money in Greek?
I know this isn't Greek, but I immediately thought of pesos and I bet you some people are gonna be hella mad if you call the US a pesocracy
Serious answer : I am not living there, have no idea how to compare, nor whether the court system works as a safeguard.
Troll answer In democracy you have the right to healthcare and education, so it's been a while it isn't
For a long while I thought America was a democracy but that the population was rather uneducated. Their media and culture seemed to glorify ignorance and shame intellectualism.
I now consider America a fascist state, early stages. I've seen too many simulations to know that the level of organized resistance required to prevent the descent into fascism is either too morally grey or too risky to be worth it. It must get much worse before resistance is meaningful.
At best an American is a victim, at worst they are a fascist.
Resistance to early fascism is not morally grey or too risky.
Whether it's effective when 90% of the population is made of shallow, consumerized brainlets is another question.
Not when they have the Electoral College bullshit upending every election in favor of a minority.
If this is true how to democrats win elections?
Well, it takes a bigger portion of voters voting blue just to reach equilibrium, which then results in a few swing states because that's the stupid system they have. The whole purpose is to dilute the blue vote so Republicans can have a coin flip chance. So whoever wins the swing states instead of the popular vote wins the election. One example is Trump vs Clinton. Technically, Clinton won the popular vote but not the electorate.
So, really, it's not "why are Dems winning elections?" but "why are Reps winning them at all?"
In the case of this election. The Republicans won the popular vote, so by your logic they should have won this year anyways.
Even so, if you look at voting distribution on a US map. Densely populated urban centers vote blue and there are large swathes of land that vote red. Do you propose that the people who live in these densely populated areas should have the power to choose the president every election?
In my view, the fact that the elections are close and both parties win is evidence that the system works.
by your logic they should have won this year anyways
They had a higher probability of winning and they took full advantage of that, yes.
Do you propose that the people who live in these densely populated areas should have the power to choose the president every election?
Yes. That's how it's done in all other modern democracies that I know of including my own. I don't understand this idea that population density must result in devaluing one's vote. It's punishing the cities for existing. That just because you live in the city your power should be diminished because other people chose to live in Bumbuck, Iowa. Like, what does your residence have to do with anything? It's a foreign concept to me. Like, you're not even hurting, you're just upset that your views aren't those of the nation.
Not to mention that's a curious mindset to have. It implies that people in the city can't be trusted to decide an election despite their candidates being great. Coincidentally, most of the people in the cities are POC and I find that to be more than a coincidence. I'm inclined to think it's yet another tool used to disenfranchise Black voters and suppress minorities given the US's notoriously racist history. We even got threads on this site expressing how that fixation on race makes us foreigners uncomfortable.
is evidence that the system works
Yes, it works great in favor of Republicans by tipping the scale. I'm surprised you replied with that given how I just explained that it's a rigged system and you said, yes it's wonderful...
What you are proposing gives complete power of the elections to small spheres of influence in the US. Candidates only have to appease to people who live in the cities to win. I don't see how this can be seen as a good thing. The current system forces candidates to get both the rural and urban residents' votes to win.
The current system forces the candidates to appeal to a number of states artificially. How is that any better? Lol It doesn't even do what you claim it does.
And also, most of those red areas on the map are empty, as you said. Why bother saying it's empty when it's convenient only to present a fully red map as if it means anything?
Lastly, cite your sources, please. We have no idea where you got that image.
Are you referring to the swing states? They have to appeal to those states because they already have the other states locked in, but they can't just ignore the places they usually get votes each election either. Part of the reason the Republicans won the popular vote this year is because many counties flipped from Democrat to Republican. They aren't appealing to swing states artificially, they are trying to win the votes of a population that votes either direction and isn't practically a guarantee.
Those red areas are in fact not empty, there are people who live in those regions. That map was made by a redditor here : https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/s/6914AUEoEf.When I initially saw the post (a few years ago), I verified the information presented at that time. You are of course free to double check.
Are you referring to the swing states?
We're not talking about anything else.
They have to appeal to those states because they already have the other states locked in, but they can't just ignore the places they usually get votes each election either.
Candidates regularly ignore states while campaigning. I know for a fact that happened last year with both Trump and Harris. They do know their states are locked in.
They aren't appealing to swing states artificially,
I'm saying the swing states are created artificially to create a close race. It wouldn't be close otherwise and instead decidedly blue if it were a fairer system that doesn't devalue people's votes arbitrarily.
And also, your map needs population density to be meaningful. And a better source.
Those red areas are in fact not empty, there are people who live in those regions
It's hyperbole. Their populations are peanuts to the cities, which is why we weed the population density so you can stop pointing at the map and be like "see all this red land??" and I stop internally screaming.
swing states are the result of the voting populace going 50/50 on what party they vote for. One doesn't create a swing state.
I see where you're coming from. Popular vote wins the election, easy enough. People don't vote like that. I don't understand why you are refusing to see the other perspective.
People with similar ideologies clump together. Democrats are a majority in the US, and the greater share of which live very close to one another in select cities across the country. What you are saying is that only what they think matters and they will always get their way because there is more of them.
People who live in the city live very different lives and have different concerns than people live in rural areas. I don't necessarily think it is okay for one group to have all the power, especially since they are so out of touch with one another.
An election system should be consistent and maintain a competitive election, and should not succumb to mass politics or control from people in power.
swing states are the result of the voting populace going 50/50 on what party they vote for. One doesn’t create a swing state.
Yes, by tipping the voting base to go 50/50. It's literally like 60/40 if the electoral college is removed, and that's my entire point. I'm not here to argue the hows and whys about why it is that way. Voter disenfranchisement is my main point and that's my only point.
I don’t understand why you are refusing to see the other perspective.
Because I know the other perspective and it's a load of bullshit. Here, all of this:
People with similar ideologies clump together. Democrats are a majority in the US, and the greater share of which live very close to one another in select cities across the country. What you are saying is that only what they think matters and they will always get their way because there is more of them. People who live in the city live very different lives and have different concerns than people live in rural areas. I don’t necessarily think it is okay for one group to have all the power, especially since they are so out of touch with one another.
All of it is apologetic bullshit and an excuse for the right wing to hinder and diminish other people's rights to vote, as they always do. The only time location actually matters (and should matter) is whether you're voting from abroad or not. That's how we do it and that's how everyone I know does it... except for the US because of its bullshit conservative mental gymnastics, as always.
especially since they are so out of touch with one another
I've never in my life seen a more out of touch party than the Conservatives, tbh. Being "out of touch" is not a strong argument, and doubly so in today's American political circus.
An election system should be consistent and maintain a competitive election, and should not succumb to mass politics or control from people in power.
Pfft. No. That honestly sounds like you have an agenda in your mind that somehow, and for some reason, must give special concessions to the lesser party so that you have a minority rule at the expense of people's voting rights and dignity. That's evil and that's not democratic in the way that aligns with most people's values.
You don't appear to understand how the electoral college works. Each state has electors who vote on behalf of the citizenry. These electors always go with the populace. So essentially popular vote applies to win the electoral votes of a state. Some states do winner take all, some split the electoral votes proportional to how the populace voted. A state that Is 50/50 doesn't become 60/40 if the electoral college is removed. People vote how they vote and that's that.
I don't mean out of touch in the traditional sense. I mean the rural residents and urban residents are out of touch with each other, meaning they live very different lives.
I have an agenda in mind? You are quite literally advocating for single-party dominance, and all they need to do to is maintain control over their already established small spheres of influence in large cities. Appeal to a couple local politicians and their citizens, maintain power, leave the rest of the country in ruin.
It's true I don't know the details because of being a foreigner and all, but I have seen its grander effects on the election results and that's all that matters. Like I said, "I’m not here to argue the hows and whys. Voter disenfranchisement is my main point and that’s my only point."
I don’t mean out of touch in the traditional sense. I mean the rural residents and urban residents are out of touch with each other, meaning they live very different lives.
And so what? What does that have to do with the elections and the presidency? Why is that ever relevant? And why is that used as part of having to decide how much a vote is worth?
I mean, if by "different lives" you mean different realities with the right skewing towards conspiracy, then yes, I wholeheartedly agree that it matters. Q Anon, JFK revival parade, the Deep State and Hillary Clinton/pizza gate. Holy crap. I don't think pandering to them electorally is the right call. I mean, they promoted and elected convicted felon Trump twice and pushed your country squarely into plutocracy leaning towards kleptocracy.
You are quite literally advocating for single-party dominance,
What, you think the left is one single homogeneous group? I was about to say you're on Lemmy, you should know better, but I see your account is only 1 month old. Also, consider the state of the Overton window in the US before you accuse anyone of such things: Your left is my right and your right does not exist here because it's a lil' bit crazy.
leave the rest of the country in ruin.
As opposed to the Republican presidents who have never ever done that? What is happening now with your Cheeto in Charge? And Bush? And Regan? Hello?
A demo-crazy.
Note that it is not democracy what Trumpeltier is destroying at the moment. It is the functioning of the state. This will take so many years to rebuild, if possible at all.
I don't recognise the current American regime as a valid government. Just like I don't recognise the Israeli occupation force as a valid state.
It's not remotely binding or even meaningful to anyone but myself of course. But hey, nothing matters these days.
Never has been.
BRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRT
Shit I live inside the US and I barely consider it a democracy.
In some aspects, but no more than china. (spaniard here)
Nope
yeah of course. it's still a corrupted and broken democracy.
American political system can very easily produce a new authoritarian leader, the president has much more power and with Congress majority can easily turn things around. The fact it hasn't happened before is a great achievement. Looking at everything Trump administration has been doing is to concentrate power at the top and to become new dictatorship. It wont be Trump, maybe JD Vance who knows.
It depends on what the Americans will allow to happen, cause I feel that Americans are getting pissed harder each year and many large protests will happen. Is it going to be a wakeup call to become democratic and sensible again or full dictatorship only time will tell.
Nope. I see it as an autocracy run by an elite oligarchy.
That's a retorical question, isn't it?
Depends on the outcome of the next election.
Or the existence of said election at all...
No, because I'm sure it's passed the tipping point towards autocracy. There's endless different forms of both it and democracy, but it's a constant that democracy begets democracy and autocracy begets autocracy, so that's my "line in the sand".
In America's case as of now, all the checks and balances that used to work are still there, but they've been questionable for many years and aren't going to do anything going forwards, so they're functionally more like Canada's monarchy.
If you're looking for a perspective on what's normal and what's not, consider that when there's a big social problem in Canada, it's only a matter of time until a law trying to address it gets passed. That's what a functioning democracy is like. Meanwhile, there's been a known place in the US where no courts have jurisdiction to prosecute serious crimes for two decades now.
I guess, I'd say it's a democracy-in-progress currently. I mean, all democracies always are, but the US perhaps a bit more. Seeing the protests is a very good sign, though.
People seem to think freedom and democracy are synonymous. Places can be free, but not have democracy; places can also have democracy and not be free. When a simple majority of the voting public supports cracking down on freedoms - you will have one of the two, but you can't have both.
Democracy is an umbrella term. These are the types of democracy the US is:
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Representative Democracy
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Constitutional Democracy
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Presidential Democracy
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Liberal Democracy
Types of Democracy the US is not:
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Direct Democracy
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Parliamentary Democracy
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Illiberal Democracy
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Participatory Democracy
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Social Democracy
So yes, it's a democracy.
You are confusing a lot of pol science terms, as well as using some which aren't part of pol science at all.
All modern democracies are representative democracies, as in voters votes for representatives to represent them. Switzerland has elements of direct democracy, but on a foundation of representative democracy as well. Constitutional, presidential and liberal democracy are not an actual meaningful terms in political science.
Technically the US is a representative democracy, but I am pretty sure OPs is asking about the practice of the thing. And the practice is very different from the written word about how it was supposed to be, especially this recent presidential term.
I didn't confuse anything, this isn't a pol sci class, so I don't care what is or is not considered a pol sci term. Yes, they are mixed and some are subtypes of others
Yes, Americans voted for this administration
Yes, but hardly an example for a good one. Besides that, it has become a bad ally, if it even is one at this time, and a factor of uncertainty.
The short answer: yes.
The long answer: it will take a long time to completely dismantle a democracy in a country as big and complex as America. You don't just do that in three months.
All trump has done so far is move as fast as possible to make as much of a mess as possible in the hopes that some of his nutty ideas goes through once the system catches up to him. And the system will catch up to him and Musk and all the other cunts who are having their little ego fest currently.
I have patience. Kind of. I look forward to seeing the consequences of their actions come to haunt them. I also hope this period in American politics will be the wake up call America needs to hopefully bar politicians and political parties from taking donations from big corps essentially try to buy the government and weaken true democracy from flourishing. The US isn't the only country with this problem, but it is certainly neck deep in one of the worst outcomes of letting big corporations take ownership of a government.
What makes you so sure of that? Trump is already actively disregarding court orders, and the Supreme Court ruled he cannot be charged with a crime if it is part of an “official duty”.
I'm sure he will do his damnedest to dismantle everything, but I don't believe he will succeed. He may get away with it for a little while, but this shit isn't going to last.
I fully believe it will be the wake up call America has desperately needed for a very long time. Countries like Russia and China never really had democracy and they never had freedom as a value so that is why I don't think trump will be successful in the long term with his little stunt here. It will get worse before it gets better and America is currently in the finding out phase that we learned in Europe in the 40s.
That is how I look at it.
It's what they call a "flawed democracy" now. It's not at the point where thousands of people simply disappear and every aspect of political life is dictated by one party's leadership.
But it's sliding downward.
Is anywhere really?
Sure, though the developments are worrying. If Donald gets a third term, I will consider USA an autocracy.
For the time being, sure. I dint think democracy is a binary. Democracy doesn't imply a fair system or universal suffrage or a system where power is split.
Like for example the Vatican is a absolute monarchy and also a democracy.
Kinda. On how the voting process works in general, I consider it a worse democracy than Brazil, since nearly anything only gets voted if there's enough lobby money being thrown at it, not to mention the astronomic campaign costs. Each state having different voting laws makes the democracy weaker
Would be nice to know what part of America you mean by that. It is a pretty big continent you know? Argentinians, Mexicans, Brasilians and so on are all part of America.
Buuuut I'm gonna go ahead and assume you are asking about the UNITED STATES country, right?
Yes it is a Democracy. Not perfect, but then again which one is?
I always find this so pedantic, yes, America is the continent but it's also the name of the country, just like you probably say Argentina, Mexico or Brazil for the countries you mentioned instead of Argentinian Republic, United States of Mexico, or Federative Republic of Brazil. By that same token when you said United States I could have assumed you were talking about Mexico, heck until very recently in history Brazil was also named United States of Brazil so if I or you were old I could also asume Brazil. But I know what you meant by US and you know what he meant by America, stop being pedantic.
The Americas is what you mean, vs America, which implies the US. If you want to include Canada and Mexico, you say "North America". It's not difficult.
I've been all over the world, and no one has ever been confused when I say I'm from America. This push to make it seem like it's confusing is ridiculous.
Colloquially, internationally, when people say America, I don't think of them referring to anywhere but the US. I'm not about making things US centric either, just saying.
Never have, they are ruled by their uniparty and indeed they can't see outside their box.
I am probably that lol guy.
An American, but it never was a democracy. It's always been a republic with a few democratic mechanisms.
Which is good, IMO, or we would've gotten here much sooner. Populism is where democracies go to die, and the mechanisms of a representative republic help keep your average idiots from collectively voting us there.
We are mostly a democracy but it's crumbling. Trump has ignored judges and stuff and causing a real shit fest. But for the most part, the people elected for this. Now if the people get their heads out of the asses and vote this guy out, but he's still president, then it's not a democracy.