Any RPGs that take into account when you reload a save? Or that break the 4th wall like this?
5mon 26d ago by mander.xyz/u/Mothra in asklemmy
I'm a casual gamer so perhaps this has been made hundreds of times and I just ignore it.
So let's say you play your game, things don't go well so you go back and reload a save. Now, with your current knowledge you can get things right and that's usually how it goes with games.
Is there any game that takes this into the plot as something necessary by design (say for example, the main character is supposed to be clairvoyant or something)? You play, your character gets things wrong the first time, but now when you reload your character will obviously do everything right, almost as if they were clairvoyant/psychic/etc because that's exactly what your character is. The only way to beat the game is to explore a variety of outcomes in order to gather information until you get it right, but instead of this being immersion breaking it's actually supported by the plot itself.
Not sure if I'm making sense here or maybe I ate the wrong kind of cookies, you tell me...
Isn't that just Undertale and Deltarune?
I don't know, you tell me. Never played either
Yes.
Yep, narratively Undertale uses the exact concept you're talking about.
It's not much of a mechanic for most parts of the game though.
Yes, IIRC Undertale it will only taunt you a bit at first, you have to play almost to the end before you really notice. But then it masterfully beats you against the 4th wall, hard, several times. (Speaking about eating the wrong cookies, yes it does feel like that.)
And then, when you start a second play-through, the 4th wall stays broken. (Personally I didn't care enough for the game for a second play-through, but if you read it up it's a whole thing, the game will not simply reset.)
Thanks for providing some context! I'm definitely intrigued now, I'll keep this one for my wishlist
This.
Most rougelites kind of do this.
For "big" FPS games Deathloop kind of does it. You and the main villain are aware of a reset that happens when you die or the two day timer runs out.
Every loop you gain more knowledge, and every miniboss gives more power.
But to actually beat the game, you need to do a bunch of tasks in the right order in the right timeslots.
I don't think I ever finished it, but it was a fun concept
You should finish Deathloop. I have two major issues with it, and the first is that it's too short. By the time you really get going you're about done. My second issue is there's only one correct solution. There's a lot of alternative solutions that allow you to accomplish different goals, but, for completing the game, there's only one path.
It's sad that Arkane made Prey (which is one of the best games ever made) and then Deathloop (which is a very good concept, if flawed), and then we're forced to make Redfall. I think they lost most of their talent over that, so I don't suspect we'll ever get anything like those again from that studio.
I would have never thought of a roguelike.... Are we talking about stuff like shattered pixel dungeon? Hardly enough depth of plot and definitely a different run every time so repeating is nearly impossible.
As for Deathloop, that sounds really cool! That would fit the bill, cheers!
Hades is a great example of this. You start out as the son of Hades, lord of the underworld. You want to escape his realm, so you try to fight your way out. Along the way, you will die and fail, and you just get sent back down to your father's house, and he gives you a bit of a hard time about how weak and ineffectual you are.
The plot unfolds as you interact with various gods and other figures in the underworld, over the course of your many attempts. Saving and reloading isn't really a thing, as such, but the plot continues to unfold, even as you die over and over over and over.
Edit:
This is a great time for me to rave about how much I love the storytelling in Hades. In a book or in a totally linear game, the story looks like this:
You start at the beginning, you proceed directly to the end. You have no choices in how the plot progresses. This is fine in a book, and I'm sure there are some games where it works okay, too.
Most games with "choices" go like this:
You might make a few choices, but a lot of them either end in a false ending or take you right back to the ending that the writers planned all along. It can give the illusion of meaningful choice, but it can also start to feel hollow once you see where the railroad tracks are.
Hades works like this:
All of the characters in the game (and there are a lot of them) have their own linear plot that is unfolding as you play the game, and you are learning about any one of them at any given time. You don't have many meaningful choices to make, but it still reads as a very compelling plot because all of your interactions deepen your relationship with each character in turn. It saves us all from the fake choices that a lot of games stick us with. It's genius.
Okay, belated thanks for your artwork. You are a good visual communicator. I think I read your comment before you added the images. I'm intrigued now
In Fable 2 when you purchase shops that earn you money it accrues in real time. If I plugged in my 360 I'd probably have 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 gold or something now haha
It likely uses the Internal clock. Just set it to the year 3000 and retire.
There was an upper limit on how much you could earn like this. I know, because you could also just disconnect from the internet and set the clock forward.
Kind of a primitive example, but in the old text-adventure Planetfall you had a robot sidekick named Floyd who, when you saved the game would occasionally comment, "oh boy, are we going to do something dangerous now?"
Oh, Floyd. That's a name I've not heard in a long time.
Never heard of this one, but clearly a inspiration for Sierra's Space Quest.
It did make me think of Planet's Edge which was a fabolous space exploration/crew management/rpg.
Inscryption
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1092790/Inscryption/
Don't read into it too too much. It's better experienced knowing as little as possible, but things are absolutely not as they seem
This one rings a bell... I can't remember much but I've heard it's a good game
Undertale.
The Demon/Dark Souls formula is essentially this. The idea that (depending on the game and boss) you actually canonically tried and failed countless times before finally winning. I want to say there is an indie game that is approaching that from the perspective of the boss (Many a True Nerd did a video on it. it looked "fine").
Warframe has also played with this in a different way. The 1999 update is about a time loop where you get to know (and romance) the characters involved. And over KIM (like AIM but legally distinct!) they outright acknowledge that they don't know how many loops have occurred but trust you about it and blah blah blah.
And Undertale/Deltarune and Doki Doki Literature Club (among many others) also play with this to some degree.
But ACTUALLY keeping track of when you reload a save? I am not aware of any. Mostly because it would make the mechanisms that save files work by MUCH more complicated.
No, I'm not saying keeping track of when you reload a save but simply have the NPCs and maybe even the main avatar acknowledge they know exactly what would happen if they did things differently, because they've already experienced it in another timeline.
You wouldn't need to keep track of saves, just leave some dialogue lines that vaguely address this after the fact.
This gimmick instantly reminds me of The Stanley Parable. It isn't really related to saving and loading but it does "reset" you all the time. I find it an absolute gem of a game.
Never heard of it... Will keep in mind!
Shadow of Mordor and it's sequel, Shadow of War. The nemesis system makes death a part of the game, so a random orc that kills you gets a promotion.
Okay and then what happens with your character? Does it resurrect or you spawn a different one?
You ”resurrect” at a spawn tower I guess would be the best way to put it.
Tap for spoiler
the game has a hierarchy system where you go against different types of warlords, each with their own abilities and weaknesses, if you bring a warlord down to a certain health you can ”infect/command” them and utilize them to go into combat, breach castles or fight other warlords, gather enough warlords and you’ll see them roaming the map and help you if they see you in combat.
It’s quite a unique mechanic and I’m pretty sure Warner Bro’s copywriten/trademarked it or something along those lines.
This. It happens in the opening cut scene, so i don't think I'm spoiling anything. You get inhabited by a elf ghost, and the mechanic is that when you die, you go to like a spirit realm, then come back, and time has passed.
Not an RPG, but the ancient civ-like Output would have a "news" article pop up whenever you loaded a save game. "Entire colony plunged back in time - scientists baffled" or something like that.
Katana Zero does this. You have precognition and work out how to win an encounter before you actually do it. Later, it explores more interesting concepts like, "what if your opponent also has the same ability". The story is really good, so i won't go into it too much, but I highly recommend.
Nice, I haven't heard about this one either. Thanks!
Note that it's not an RPG, though.
It's been a long while but IIRC in one of the early Metal Gear Solid games there was a baddie who would threaten to (and could) corrupt your save file, completely breaking the fourth wall in the process.
Psycho Mantis! You had to switch your controller to the other port so he couldn't read your mind! 😂
Psycho Mantis didn't corrupt your save file, but he would read your memory card and reference other games you'd played. Given the creepy vibes of the scene to begin with, this freaked out many an unsuspecting player.
Closer to OP's question, there was a villain in Metal Gear Solid 3 named The End, a sniper who was a very old man. If you saved your game during the fight and then waited over a week (in real-world time) before loading the save again, when you returned to the fight you'd find he'd died of old age while waiting for you to do anything.
Oh, yes, that was it! Good times!
What?! That's awesome haha
There's a game where the best way to experience it is to go blind and discover everything, I think you might enjoy it, it's called Outer Wilds, and it's one of the best games I've ever played.
Alright, exploring, I like that, I take there is something about it that relates to my original question as well, will keep in mind. Thanks for the suggestion!
Gonna second this, judging from your other comments, you will very much like this game (just don't confuse it with Outer Worlds). Go in as blind as you can, but if you feel like you're just not "getting" it and at risk of bouncing off, this video might help you: https://youtu.be/msABa06aiT0
It does, it's not a very large spoiler, so if you want to I can let you know. But without spoiling anything, I can tell you it's very close to what you're describing.
I have tried over and over to get into this since everyone says that. I get bored or frustrated long before anything interesting happens and quit.
How do I push through to care enough to keep going?
Learn patience? :p
Ain't got time for that.
Try again in 10 years
Obvious spoilers for people who're still playing, but: Push through what exactly? Have you gotten to the main game loop? Do you know what's the mechanic I'm hinting at on my original answer? Does 22minutes mean anything to you?
I'm going to assume yes (if not, push through until this makes sense). Now you have a whole solar system to explore. One thing that I didn't noticed at the beginning and made me frustrated, there's a computer on your ship, you have log entries there, sometimes reading those logs might give you a push onto what to explore next. That being said, this game is all about exploration, every planet has interesting things to explore, I'm not going to spoil too much, but it's all about exploring and figuring out stuff, if you're getting bored you don't know what to do, if you're getting frustrated you might be trying to solve a problem without all of the puzzle pieces, go out, explotó other places and you might find something that helps you.
I get bored and annoyed long before the ship. I think I made it there once.
Then there's nothing I can tell you. You haven't even finished the game tutorial. I just found a video on YouTube of someone playing, the tutorial is around 20 minutes, after that you get into the game proper, once you get to the ship that's when the game starts.
Sorry I replied earlier but to the wrong person.
I did want to thank you for the response. Yeah the tutorial drove me nuts wandering around and then tying to get where I needed to go, and finding the places on the map just bored me.
But I will save your response, and when I give it a go again if I need to go with the spoiler I will.
Thanks.
Man you really gotta get on the ship, once you're on that the world is your oyster.
Except for the place with the fish don't go there
Just do it, you just push through and the story will drag you kicking and screaming to the end.
The end scene has been my desktop background for years now
Yes the best game I've ever played. I wish I could do back and play it again
Not quite the same, but the save points in Chrono Cross exist in universe and a twist later in the game reveals they're being used to alter people's memories.
Also running on low sanity in Eternal Darkness when it's been a while since you've last saved may cause the game to pretend to corrupt your save files or act like the GameCube lost power.
The zero escape series sounds exactly like what you're looking for. It's very central to the plot. It's more of a visual novel with puzzles than an RPG though.
Raging Loop is another VN with a similar premise.
This might not be quite what you're looking for, since it's an MMO, but there's a lot of unique quest dialogue in Runescape for those who know what they need beforehand - whether because they've done it before or because they're following a guide.
For example - Doric's Quest - a simple early game quest where he asks for some items:
Player: You know, it's funny you should require those exact things!
Doric: What do you mean?
Player: I can usually fit 28 things in my backpack and in a world full of quite literally limitless possibilities, a complete coincidence has occurred!
Doric: I don't quite understand what you're saying?
Player: Well, out of pure coincidence, despite definitely not knowing what you were about to request, I just so happened to have carried those exact items!
Doric: Oh my, that is a coincidence! Pass them here, please. I can spare you some coins for your trouble, and please use my anvils any time you want.
There's even an extra line about having the exact quantities of the items if you aren't carrying anything extra.
Lol good old RuneScape
Outerwilds
The Batman Arkham games gradually add visible damage to you as you die and reload. It's not exactly story relevant, but adds nice flavor.
There's also resetti in animal crossing that is a bit of the opposite. He just shames you and wastes your time for save scumming.
I now want to make a game that does exactly that.
If you quick save in an area with killable NPCs they would know and some would look at you and back away slowly, others would turn an run like in GTA, maybe one or two go wide eyed and freeze and just stare at you waiting. If you had previously killed any and reloaded then one goes "Oh no, not again."
I would make puzzles or locked areas that are impossible to open UNTIL you figure out that knowledge, but if you reload after learning that and try to shortcut the process the puzzle would either change so you fail again or even better, you could solve it and like a door opens, but then when you go into the next room there is a scroll or book tome thing that would lecture you about cheating or something funny and then make you do a second different puzzle to proceed, that would be an infinite series of rooms if you reloaded, but if you solved then organically then you could finally escape the loop and the door exits the loop.
If you don't play for a while and load up an old save, make some characters aware of the passage of time and comment things like "oh I thought you forgot about us." Or even specifically call out the exact amount "Really? 49 days waiting on you. Did you even think about me?"
I LOVE the idea someone else mentioned of an in-game antagonist being able to corrupt your save file or even transfer themselves to one of your other save files. How freaky would it be if they corrupt your save, so you have to load an old save before you met that antagonist and then they fucking show up and KNOW WHAT YOU DID.
Or if it reads your other saves and the NPCs could make rude or insulting comments about them. "Been playing Mario instead of spending time with us again? Is a plumber really better than us? Ouch." Or if you played any spicy games one of the characters would look at you and wink and go "I was watching you Friday night, you animal." And really freak you out.
I really love the 4th wall break idea of an antagonist that becomes self aware and breaks out of the game. There was a Star Trek TNG episode where Data and Geordi do a Sherlock Holmes holodeck thing and create a Moriarty character that could "outsmart data" and he becomes sentient and breaks out of the holodeck and it's a whole thing and I love that concept for a game.
There are so many amazing possibilities.
Experience 112 reacts to the time between sessions. When you start playing after a few days you get a comment where the main character wonders where you've been.
Lol okay this is taking the concept one step forward after breaking the wall, not exactly what I was referring to ( more of a narrative device, while what you describe sounds like also related to the mechanics of the game itself). But you got a point, there's no shortage of cool stuff you could do with it
I cant think of any game that does this, but i can think of why. Forcing players to basically not be able to win until they do arbitrary failures and reload would make for an annoying and frustrating experience. Youre sitting there knowing nothing you do matters, so all of this will just be a chore. And if you do have the option to get it right the first time, then the mechanic is wholly pointless.
The closest you get are things like achievements or rewards for not saving or having the save deleted on death.
Forcing players to basically not be able to win until they do arbitrary failures and reload would make for an annoying and frustrating experien
The thing is that is would be a better emulation of RPG if you couldn't reload at every death. The main difficulty is to have multiple story path which would lead to different outcome rather than a real win.
Actually, life is strange turn the video game roload mechanics into the rewind power
I don't think I made my point clear enough. I don't need anything special from the game mechanics, and I'm not talking about forcing some sort of arbitrary failure. It's normal to reload a save once or twice for a tricky quest or boss. Most people don't rage quit for doing so.
All I'm asking about is how the plot of the game handles the protagonist's success. In most games, your character beats the quests or bosses and as far as the NPCs are concerned your character did everything perfectly just once, either because they got lucky or because they are amazingly skilled. But what if it was acknowledged that the real reason is they can see how things will play out if they did things differently, and/or they've had enough time in an alternate reality to hone their skills.
TLDR I'm talking about a narrative tool more than some weird gameplay mechanics.
Edit: from other comments I gather some games fit the bill, Undertale, Deathloop, and Dark Souls, maybe No Man's Sky too.
I can’t think of an RPG exactly that does this, but Postal 2 will poke fun at you when you save too often for its liking.
There’s a point in dotHack for the PlayStation 2 where you cannot progress until you power off and on the console and reboot the game. In-universe you’re waiting for another player of an MMO to message you in-game, and in real life the devs want you to give up, play another game or go to bed, and try to progress another time.
Not exactly what you're talking about, but canonically in some of the souls games and specifically elden ring you are a being that is immortal, but pathetic, theoretically. So dying over and over is just kind of written into the lore
Prince of Persia on the GameCube (I think? It was a long time ago!) had a mechanism very like this, where you manually rewound time after you died/failed. More Action/Adventure than an RPG, though.
You had to kill enemies and then stab them with a special dagger to extract special sand that filled up an on screen guage.
That guage represented how far back you could rewind the game if you died or did something you wanted to undo.
My favourite part about this is that the entire story of the game is a giant flashback story as told by the prince.
Every time you died, the prince would say something like, "No, no, no, that's not what happened. Let me tell the story again."
Nice .... This would fit the bill too!
The sequels, Warrior Within and The Two Thrones, also push through the storyline based on the fact the your character changed the past, did so multiple times, and kept screwing it further until hitting the big reset button.
Warrior Within has a scene where you watch a parallel version of you (you don't know it at the time) get killed, go back in time, and then relive that scene as the parallel version but you make your past version get killed instead.
I'm not sure about an RPG but this sounds similar to the main character's time manipulation powers in the original Life is Strange
This game has a game mechanic that is similar to what you describe: https://store.steampowered.com/app/311240/Zero_Escape_Zero_Time_Dilemma/
You are faced with lots of challenging and deadly traps/puzzle that almost always end with your death. But you can jump back to earlier times in the story and with your new knowledge you can make better choices.
OneShot's plot focuses on the gamer's relation to the protagonist, Niko, so try that!
Oh interesting! I was also going to ask about games with that plot/narrative device in this post, but I typed so much to explain myself with the saves already I thought I might leave it for another occasion.
Yeah I don't know if that game is anything like this, but one could say the player directly manipulates, influences, controls and /or gives information to the game protagonist... What if the protagonist could interact directly with you as a player? That'd be a cool concept to explore too. Cheers
Metal Gear Solid does a little bit of that lol. I do not want to spoil OneShot as it's entirely plot-heavy, but it does have what you're talking about at a major plot point.
It’s been a while since I’ve played, so I’m not 💯, but I think Bastion does this when you die and reload. The story is told through 3rd person audio narration as you play. I think it slips in “the boy gets up, brushes the dust off his boots, and tries again” or other such lines.
Animal Crossing O o O
Resetti has always been one of my favorite parts of the series.
No Man's Sky.
spoiler
The game's lore is that it is a simulation. Some of the expeditions require you to live/die/repeat per se.
Interesting, this would fit the bill, thanks
Depends on your pet theory as to what sort of soul the player character has in the elder scrolls, but being adjacent to the missing God isn't far off.
Breath of Fire Dragon Quarter isn't quite the what you are describing, but it is built around saving and reloading regularly.
This reminds me of the book "Only you can save mankind" by Terry Pratchett. The aliens surrender once they realise the player is apparently immortal!
idk if this is on topic but I remember playing jak3 as a kid and after i constantly died, that stupid fkin rat pops up and said something like "You suck". I think i cried for a bit lmao
Maybe check out deathloop?
The Elder Scrolls and Fallout games notoriously do this. It's like half the exploits of the game if you're a speedrunner.
Though, not necessarily in the way you intended to mean. It's just how the save system works mechanically. Shit like having your momentum preserved to get massive speed boosts by simply saving and loading real quick, but also you can quickly backtrack by saving where you wanna be, doing a quest and then reloading as, for some reason, the quest being completed will also be saved eveb though you did it after you made the save.
Yes but there is nothing in game to explain how your character suddenly knew where to go or how they got the power boost. I'm looking for something that actually takes this into account as an essential part of the plot.
Undertale does this. It even goes so far with breaking the 4th wall, that for one of the possible endings you need to close the game and delete your save file from Windows (and it tells you this in-game). It knows you did this, and is the only way to continue with that particular path.
It has other nods to you reloading a save at various times throughout the game, as well.
Yes, it seems to fit the bill pretty well. From all the comments I think I should definitely play it sometime