Who is an artist or public figure you still enjoy despite them being cancelled for bad behaviour?
5mon 24d ago by lemmy.world/u/BonesOfTheMoon in asklemmy
It's something I struggle with. Some bad news comes out about some public persona doing something shitty and they get cancelled. But sometimes I really struggle with giving up the things they've made because I like them. There are also occasions where the person has been accused of something and it doesn't seem true to me, or I think they're genuinely sorry and have been punished enough, and the context isn't being considered.
What do you think? Who do you feel conflicted about enjoying?
Both of the Linuses
Sebastian and Torvalds
Sebastian because most of the shit he's been accused of has either been fixed openly, or was proven mostly false.
Torvalds because while he can be extremely rude, he generally only does it when the person deserves to be called out. It's not like he's going off at random people. Society says he should use more tact, but the dude is literally responsible for creating and now maintaining arguably the most important piece of the server software stack globally. There's also a very high chance he's on the spectrum.
Yeah people can complain Torvalds was rude all day, but fuck me if the people he yelled at couldn't be aggressively disrespectful in bringing half-assed work to the table and doing damage or at best wasting other's people time.
He's the literal "You're not wrong, you're just an asshole". But if he wasn't that way, I wonder if we'd have what we have. A nicer developer wouldn't get the same attention.
You probably needed someone like him in a technical leadership role somewhere, the problem was that he became the face as well.
And when he acts shitty towards somebody, he does it publicly, where he himself can also receive the backlash from what he is doing.
He's not attempting to build a reputation as being a nice guy or a thought leader or anything. He is getting shit done, and anyone that's got a problem with it or him can either go do it better than him or stfu
At least the face isn't steering the brain like most organizations!
I argue about this all the time, especially if you have to work with non-coders. People who don't code do not understand the big picture.
Steve Wozniak is brilliant, and had Steve Jobs explain the vision and sell it to non coders.
For Microsoft. That was Ballmer.
If youre a tech lead who lets a group of marketing folks try to define the course of any application, you need someone really strong at communication to fight for you. Unfortunately, Linus didnt have one and ripping people a new asshole was the next best thing.
He's self aware and for some reason that bothers me less than an asshole who denies being an asshole.
Sebastian because most of the shit he's been accused of has either been fixed openly, or was proven mostly false.
From what I understand, nothing was proven false, but there were things that were not proven true, as in "we couldn't find documented evidence that this employee was sexually harassed", which obviously doesn't necessarily mean that it did not happen. They just couldn't find a paper trail of it happening, which is understandable.
On the other hand, things like all the factual inaccuracies and whatnot were absolutely undeniable.
i've heard Torvalds be called rude but never "cancelled".
I think there have been attempts to cancel Torvalds after he's slapped down some idiot in a particularly harsh manner, but I don't think they ever stick because he doesn't go off on people unless they really try to do shit that would compromise the integrity of the kernel and didn't take the message to fix/bail on something when it was previously provided.
As I recall, he also apologized for the slap down, which seems like it often helps with getting cancelled
How do you define “cancelled”?
As far as I can tell both Sebastian and Torvalds are just as successful (if not more) in their respective roles today as they were before any “controversies” surrounding them were made public.
I mean, I didn't throw out my Harry Potter boxed set just becsuse Rowling is a dumb fucking TERF. I just don't continue buying shit she profits off of, and can see tons of questionable things in her work that I didn't question before knowing her thoughts on things.
Doesn't anything HP give her a cut?
It's the reason HP is banned in this household.
Getting rid of things you already had before it became known she was a transphobe doesn't take the money away from her.
there is an argument to be made for preventing further money being made by giving it to someone who will otherwise buy it new, but then you also have to consider additionally exposure if you give it to someone who wouldn't otherwise have bought it...
i don't blame you for your choice. she's alive and using money from the franchise to actively fund initiatives that hurt people. but let me copy my comment from elsewhere in this thread (about Scott Adams and old Dilbert books)
hey, read the books you already own all you want. that doesn't put anymore money in his pocket.
being "cancelled" doesn't mean we stick our fingers in our ears and act like it didn't happen. it just means being conscientious about funding the lives of people who are actively making the world a worse place.
this is a critical detail that I think people often miss
I feel conflicted about reading and writing Harry Potter fan fiction. The negative side is it draws attention to the franchise. The positive side is it helps people enjoy Harry Potter content without benefiting Rowling.
Except for buying anything new. That's not cutting her out.
Just because she doesn’t outright say I hate trans. People doesn’t mean that she uses her fame her money and her businesses to help incorporate and promote anti-trans policies in the UK and also promote those ideas in the world ideas that trans people aren’t people. How is that not the definition of hatred just in a different way you need to stop being so ignorant because you really are and I’m only saying that to help you open up to reality.
I like the world building in Fifth Element and Valerian and the City of a Thousand Planets. But Luc Besson is probably a rapist and certainly a sexual assaulter. I'll watch his old stuff I already own but won't put any more money towards it nor support any new projects.
Edit: oh, also he's not "cancelled". He came out with another movie this year or last, if I recall. 9 times our of 10, celebrities that say they were "cancelled" just had their feefees hurt by people on social media.
Also a pedo. From his wiki page:
Besson's second wife was actress and director Maïwenn Le Besco, whom he started dating when he was 32 and she was 15 after having met three years earlier.[46] They married in late 1992 when Le Besco, 16, was pregnant with their daughter Shanna, who was born on 3 January 1993.[47][deprecated source] Le Besco later claimed that their relationship inspired Besson's film Léon (1994), where the plot involved the emotional relationship between an adult man and a 12-year-old girl (played by then 12-year-old Natalie Portman).
That knowledge makes the uncomfortableness in Léon so much worse....
Let's consult the film's plot:
Mathilda looks up to Léon and quickly develops a crush on him, often telling him she loves him, but he does not reciprocate.
The film: the adult rejects advances from the teen girl.
_cryptagion: “This must mean Besson is proud of his relation with formerly-teen wife”.
Kevin Spacey is a fantastic actor.
His video about what happened is very surreal. It’s on YouTube. I think it’s tied to his House of Cards character but has dual meaning?
Indeed a great actor, but as a Trekker human being, fuck him for how he treated Anthony Rapp (the engineer from Star Trek Discovery).
by RAPPS account, he was almost raped by spacey. and the other commenter was trying to defend him, hes not the one you should be going after.
Totally.
…and if you’re going to take down Kevin Spacey, he should be the 1000th male actor or rock star you go after.
Like…yeah…people should decide if all the accusations (and no convictions) are worth anything…I think they are. But…why are people like Johnny Depp, Mel Gibson, Alex Baldwin, Sean Penn, etc still working…maybe even working more after crazy shit they did?
Did Depp get accused of more than the Heard thing? He went through a trial and was cleared, I personally don't think he deserves to be dragged, but that's just me I know others disagree
He was cleared of wrongdoing in a particular court (not others), not of being a terrible person. Many of the things he admits to exceed anything Spacey was accused of.
…but I’m not even talking about that. I’m talking about Depps Robert Downey Jr. years (I forgot to mention Robert…one of the biggest sleazebag “comeback” stories): the years when he was a womanizing rock star junkie banging teenagers, hanging out with the Butthole Surfers, and was generally unemployable. We just pretend all that didn’t happen and treat him like he’s a victim of Amber Heard (who was like 25 v 48 when they got together…he practically raised her).
If you enter that time period, I think it includes Whalbergs beating the Vietnamese man until he went blind. Some things the court of public opinion seems to ignore.
Didn’t even know about that one. Gross.
Yea marky mark was gang related or just racist before the funky bunch
Thanks for sharing - the more I know. Wasn't aware of much of it
Butthole Surfers fucking rule.
Fighting rights they do…
depp got way screwed over by HEARD, to the point of being blacklisted by hollywood, him suing heard was justified.
Kevin spacey had legitimate SA/SH accusations against him, most of it dint stick because at least 1 accuser died before he could do it.
mel gibson got cancelled by his antisemitic thing, but he mostly in christian films anyways. I think alec baldwins problem was him being careless with firearms.
He didn’t. I get it…you fell for his bullshit on TV.
You should really brush on on people beyond the one news story you remember off the top of your head.
He really is.
Agreed.
Never got that. His eyes always seemed out of character.
but hes been doubling down every since to deflect attention away, which pretty yucky. RAPP said hes over it? is he really, or he doesnt want to ruffle feathers in hollywood, which has more executives that are perverts.
Neil Gaiman. I'm extremely depressed that he's actually a POS, and because I loved his work so much, I'm conflicted. His work itself seemed to have well interrogated values woven into it's fiber, but I guess you never can tell.
Edit: really fucking bummed about Red Hot Chili Peppers too
man, this was the worst. but he's not getting another dollar from me, the bastard. at least he's not fighting Terry Pratchett's estate over Good Omens.
speaking of which, Terry seems to have been just a great guy and was better than Neil anyway. It's really helped me to let Neil go.
Helllll yeah! Terry Pratchett, but also I'm keeping ALL celebrity at arms length without heavy vetting at this point
Same with his ex? Wife Amanda Palmer. I love the Dresden Dolls and she's been very inspirational but knowing she was in on it was fucked up.
This broke my damn heart. His work seemed to have the values I hold dear and be so insightful and then… he’s getting in the bath with girls who depend on him for housing.
I am thinking that power corrupts. I came up with that but you can use that phrase if you want.
Pretty sure the Anthony Keides stuff was well known for decades. It's in his autobiography that was published like 20 years ago or something.
He's always been the worst part of that band
If you had donated them, to a thrift store or maybe a library, it would've kept someone else from buying a new copy, which would give him money.
kiedis from scar tissue? or is there something new i missed?
Yeah, his memoir or whatever details him knowingly committing statutory of a 14 yo girl.
I have a theory that all writers are somewhat hypocritical. As an amateur writer myself (I write fan fiction and am also working on original work I hope to get published eventually), I find sometimes the moral messages I try to weave into my work are sometimes messages that I myself am struggling to live up to and writing is a way of trying to work through that
michael jackson made incredible music. i don't even know how much of the stuff about him is true but it does feel weird listening to his stuff now, even though it's extremely well made.
I don't think we'll ever know. I have a feeling he actually wasn't a pedophile at all, but just felt close to children because he had Peter Pan syndrome or something. He seemed very infantile to me is the only real sense I got of him. Strange person. But without question he did make some r really iconic music.
yeah that's my impression as well. being a child star really fucks you up mentally.
then again i haven't seen the documentaries.
I agree, and the thing is we can never really know what someone is like all the time even if we get to know some aspects of them well.
I've been shocked by things that some people I knew did, that I would never have thought they were capable of.
I hope that is not the case for MJ, but it might be. And we'll likely never know.
Ehhhh, I've seen some pics of him being happily surrounded with people known for being sex pests/pedos so idk. Two things can be true, you know, he might have been mentally and developmentally different but he might have also touched some kids, sadly.
happily surrounded with people known for being sex pests/pedos so idk
He worked in the recording industry and Hollywood. It's pretty hard to avoid in those businesses.
Fair and depressing.
I've heard rumors that he was either physically or chemically castrated to keep his beautiful, pure singing voice.
If that is the case, then it would kind of explain how fucked up he is, or how fucked up he was.
Oof. Didn't he have kids though? Or is there a form of castration that doesn't affect one's ability to reproduce? Regardless, yeah, it doesn't absolve him of his sins but let's just say they're attenuating factors for his judgement.
None of his kids are genetically his as far as I know.
Oop. Okay, yeah. Hurt people hurt people. 😕
His son. He dangled him when he was holding him on a balcony over the heads of fans. I don't know why.
mj was something special if very fuken weird, but the maker of his best jams was quincy jones. if you don’t know him, spend some time investigating his catalog.
He was an incredibly talented artist. I think his father deserves most of the blame for Michael's bizarre behavior. Most adults would struggle with the pressures of fame and performing that he spent his whole life under from the time he was like 10 years old. Joe recognized that his kids were talented and then proceeded to squeeze every last red cent he could out of them. No wonder Michael snapped.
If you're a slightly creepy odd duck with large amounts of money, it'd make sense to pay a settlement rather than letting a case go to trial even if you're innocent, because juries can be wayward, especially in civil cases, and the reputational damage can easily cost you more than the settlement. So I don't buy the no smoke without fire theory, especially with the proven cases of shakedown artists abetted by contingency-fee slimebag lawyers.
I lean towards the view that MJ was a wrong 'un, but also wouldn't be surprised if it came out that he was just a twisted, damaged, traumatized, socially isolated guy.
Scott Adams, creator of Dilbert. I have several of his print books and still enjoy reading them; ditto his old cartoons. They really spoke to me years ago, as a cubicle-coder.
hey, read the books you already own all you want. that doesn't put anymore money in his pocket.
being "cancelled" doesn't mean we stick our fingers in our ears and act like it didn't happen. it just means being conscientious about funding the lives of people who are actively making the world a worse place.
this is a critical detail that I think people often miss
I think it's wild that he's the same man who made Dilbert trans and feminist in his tv show finale and it actually got kind of sincere.
I stopped liking dilbert when it became obvious that dilbert was becoming a side character so he could prop up PHB. Anything I've seen since then is just insufferable.
'The Dilbert Principle' is a great book. It's a shame he threw all that goodwill away.
I don't enjoy or like public figures. Having never met them, I cannot like them. I do enjoy the works or products of some people, and knowing the person(s) who created something can influence my chances of consuming it.
There are some people who have done, or accused of doing bad things, but they have created works that I enjoyed.
AKA, I never "liked" Neil Gaiman. But I do like American Gods.
Fair. I wish the art people made wasn't tainted by their behaviour.
Like I have a soft spot for Vince Neil even though he killed people drunk driving, because of how his poor little daughter died and how badly it's affected him. I can't help it.
and sandman too. unfortunately with neftflix being too stingy and gaiman have all the SA/SH accusations agains tthem, we wont have anymore series or shows out of his work.
I can get onboard with separate the art from the artist, mostly. Especially if you're not paying for the content, arrgh.
I find it hard to look at them without thinking of what they did, though. It's hard for me to see past the artist to the art, when the artist is so shitty. I mean, he's right there in my face, and I know what he did, so that's all I'm thinking about when they're acting.
Public people should do everything they can to keep their private lives private. Some of them are very good at it, so it is possible.
H.P. Lovecraft
I kind of think that Lovecraft was doing about the least-worst thing he could with his absolutely massive trove of neuroses and phobias, which definitely included racism and xenophobia.
He was convinced that the universe was chaotic and horrifying and that the only thing we could hold on to for stability was racial purity, and that's pretty fucked up, but he turned those feelings into spooky stories about interdimensional space monsters, which is certainly a lot better than writing political tracts or trying to convince everyone that the Armenians are actually to blame for all of our problems.
Therapy would have been even better, but writing spooky stories was better than some of the very real alternatives that other people were exploring in the 19-teens and twenties.
Lovecraft was my first experience with seperating the artist and the work. Since then, I've had to deal with it frequently but eventually you get used to it.
Those books are wild.
Turns out that the author that popularized the horror of the alien and unknown was a racist and xenophobic putz. Who would have guessed?
I really liked Chappelle show, but he's really gone bad the last few years being anti trans and all. To say he's canceled is a bit much, though. He's still rich and popular, and selling tickets.
Well hes certainly not canceled. He just had a new Netflix special. Been getting them consistently the entire time.
It's shocking to me how willing people are to hang out with Chappelle and even ride his dick, but I guess the Saudi thing showed that a lot of those folks who embed progressive values in their material are just playing characters.
anti-trans is popular with the right wingers, incel crowd.
Yeah but I mean outwardly progressive people with an entertainment career to think about.
and him being in saudia arabia, and furthering his anti-trans comedy is just adding to the fire.
I don’t think he’s actually anti-trans, he just likes making jokes about them and refused to be cowed by people telling him to stop. Just my sense of it though.
There are jokes punching up, and jokes punching down.
Chapelle is in a position of punching down, here.
So he's just a shithead asshole instead of a bigot? Pretty lateral move, honestly, if he doesn't even believe in the bigotry he spreads.
He quit his show because bigots were using his material to laugh AT black people instead of WITH them. But he's more than happy to change the butt if the joke so he can still feel good about the jokes he makes instead of having to be self reflective.
I don't think social mores factor into it all for him. When he said he finds the position of trans people genuinely funny, I think he was being honest. I do think he went too far with his jokes about them, simply in terms of sheer number; it was a social faux pas that strained the credulity of his stated position, but I personally believe him when he says he just finds the whole situation very funny.
I think he doesn't care what other people think of his comedy at this point, and I don't really have an opinion on that. I suppose I sort of respect it, but I also think he's definitely passed into the realm of bad taste at this point. I don't think he means anything bad by it though. Maybe he is insensitive, but comedians aren't known for their sensitivity. I understand the criticism against him for it and think it's valid.
I'm not defending the offensiveness of his jokes, just stating that I think they're just jokes to him, and he doesn't actually mean them in a mean-spirited light. If I were to talk to him about it, I would probably ask him how he feels about White comedians that make jokes about Black people, who also claim they're not advocating anti-Black views, and just find the humor in their situations. I imagine he might reveal himself to be quite the hypocrite under that line of questioning. Most of us are hypocrites.
I honestly think that he is a subversive ally.
Like, the things that he says, the way that he says them pisses off trans people and gets the anti-trans people on his side.
But then he also preaches a philosophy of live and let live, do whatever the fuck you want to do, just leave me alone and let me live my life, which also goes to his enemies.
So there are probably people who have transphobia, who like Dave Chappelle, who leave trans people alone, or quickly identify themselves to trans people by making a Dave Chappelle joke or reference, and therefore, incidentally, protect trans people from interacting with people that might otherwise do bad things to them.
I could be wrong. He might just be an asshole. He probably is an asshole either way. I'm not a stan for him, but that's the vibe that I get from his whole act.
The problem with that is that the libertarians that attracts are hypocrites. They don't let live, just like Chapelle himself isn't letting live.
It's easy to say "live and let live" when you're in a relative position of unassailable authority.
It's easy for someone with the means to do whatever they want to say "everyone should be able to do what they want".\
I should be allowed to mock you, but you shouldn't be allowed to do anything about it
Are you suggesting violence as an appropriate response to his commentary?
Have you encountered anyone who has been emboldened to commit either emotional or physical crimes against another person because of something Dave Chappelle has said or done?
If so, then I'm more than willing to change the way I view his schtick, but I cannot find any correlation between an increase in any sort of hurt or violence towards trans people, and anything Dave Chappelle has said or done.
I think he's serving as a pressure release valve for the people who have never encountered a trans person (who was not masking their transness) or who have suddenly been thrust into the realization that the world contains trans people and don't know how to cope with it.
Therefore I feel like the things that he says have an overall net positive effect on the way trans people are treated, even though he himself looks and sounds like a piece of shit saying it and that he offends trans people when he says it.
Are you suggesting violence as an appropriate response to his commentary?
What the fuck?
Have you encountered anyone who has been emboldened to commit either emotional or physical crimes against another person because of something Dave Chappelle has said or done?
That is crazy disingenuous. If you're this passionate about the subject then you know full well it's not the work of a single person, it's normalized a little at a time, bit by bit, until people do feel emboldened to take action. Chappelle is part of the problem, and as a very public figure then it's even less ok to let it slide, because people take cues about what is ok and what isn't from public figures.
And if you're going to say that trans people aren't already the subject of discrimination, than we cannot have a civilized discussion.
"I should be allowed to mock you, but you shouldn't be allowed to do anything about it" < your words
Isn't not giving Dave Chappelle money or time or attention the grand sum of things that you can do about his stance without violence?
I think you and I have had interactions elsewhere on Lemmy, and typically they're very antagonistic and I don't know why that is.
I earnestly try to be a reasonable person and to express my views without judgment of other people.
I do this in hopes that debate produces something positive, but from what I remember, typically, no matter what I say to you, your response is to exacerbate the argument rather than resolve it.
Sometimes other people have views that do not mesh with yours, yet they are not your enemy.
I know trans people. I have trans friends. I live in a very progressive area by choice. I have gone to protests to protect women and trans people alike.
I am an ally, and if you think that me believing or having a reason to believe that Dave Chappelle is also an ally makes me not an ally, then that's pretty much the end of the conversation, right?
"do anything about it" doesn't have to mean violence. What the fuck? Why is that the first thing you jump to?
Isn't not giving Dave Chappelle money or time or attention the grand sum of things that you can do about his stance without violence?
Yes, that is the do anything about it that I'm talking about. The thing Chapelle calls cancel culture, and fights against. So if violence isn't allowed and neither is organizing to have a voice as loud as his, then what is allowed besides letting him have his way?
makes me not an ally
I don't choose who is or isn't an ally.
If the consensus of the trans community is supporting Chapelle, then I'll shut up about it because I'd clearly be mistaken, but that doesn't seem to be the case afaict, which aligns with my understanding of why Chapelle is problematic in general; he uses libertarianism as a carte blanche to pick on minorities. this just demonstrates how libertarianism is ironically discriminatory in practice, but it teaches bigots a language to defend themselves with.
I earnestly try to be a reasonable person and to express my views without judgment of other people. [...] typically, no matter what I say to you, your response is to exacerbate the argument rather than resolve it.
How am I supposed to interpret this, from someone who immediately accused me of supporting violence and then doubled down on that accusation?
I doubt he'd go around punching/harassing transpeople (but correct me if I'm wrong, of course, I'm not dying on the Dave Chapelle hill, lol), he might just disagree with some of the current Western culture around it and understanding of it.
"It's not like he goes around assaulting trans people, he just disagrees with the current culture of letting trans people be who they are instead of masking and hiding themselves"
Yeah while I think Chapelle is entitled to free speech as a comedian and all that, his doubling- and tripling-down with the trans jokes are not only unfunny, they are embraced by bigots and embolden their subsequent hateful rhetoric and actions. If Chapelle actually cared one iota about trans people, he would just tell jokes about literally anything else. It's not like there's a shortage of topics to poke fun at.
He's a petulant, obstinate, man baby and deserving of all the backlash he has received. I honestly think he must be washed up and creatively tapped since he won't let the trans jokes go.
Lawrence Krauss did this awesome video about global warming for "skeptics" and deniers and it is so good
Only problem I can't really share it because anyone who googles the name learns he's all over the damn Epstein files
Oh wow.
I wouldn't feel too bad about this. He's going where he needs to for funding/support. The War on Science is his latest book, and it's like a who's who of shitty people complaining about how their academic efforts are being attacked for whatever reason and the real answer is generally assault, harassment, or embarrassing their employers (universities). One great example was a professor being outraged on the infringement of their free speech when the university asked people to not use blackface as part of their Halloween costumes. Note what I said there. They didn't say they couldn't wear blackface, just that they should reconsider doing so. That is the exact opposite of censorship. I went into that 4-hour (!) video thinking I'd watch an example or two and couldn't stop.
If anything, the people you want to reach might find Krauss approachable. Use him as a tool for good. And if you find someone more palatable, use them for the climate deniers who aren't on the anti-woke train.
This one hurts because he really pushed an art form.
Cartoons were not at all well respected as a method of storytelling back in the day. And Walt threw himself into the fire pretty often to strike success and build the Disney empire.
Bill Cosby is a monster, but his stand-up special "Himself" is a master class on comedic story-telling.
Privileged white folk really don't realize how much good Bill Cosby has done for poor kids. He contributed an insane amount to the community. He supported schools programs financially and helped a whole generation of black folk.
And when the news came out, you better believe we were all in the 5 stages of grief.
Just a complete 180 on his entire body of work. Like finding out Batman used homeless people for target practice. Or Jesus was a sith lord.
So uh I'm guessing that aligns with your beliefs. Please explain to me how white people didn't fuck over black people? Obviously not all problems black people face are from white people, and obviously not ever single white person has fucked over a black person, but please explain how white people aren't responsible for a lot of the problems black people go through right now please?
I've got a few pretty big counter examples of how they did right here that I'm sure you'd find interesting.
How come every time someone points out obviously racist coded stuff, the response is "well I didn't directly say what my opinion was so how dare you, you'll never know" like we don't have reading comprehension and dog whistles.
Then you hone in on the one thing that might validate your blatantly obvious opinion, and tell me to give you sources, instead of actually answering my question.
Then you throw a tantrum saying I won't give you what you want, and that if I don't give you what you want, you're right.
Even though you didn't have the balls to answer my question.
Here's a surprise for you, three examples of Problems Black People Can Have That Have Nothing To Do With White People, all of which I can personally attest to:
Black person cheated on their black spouse and they got divorced.
Black person's car got a flat.
Black person's favorite cereal was out at the grocery store.
Those problems don't have anything to do with white people. But some related problems in those situations do.
The judge ordered way harsher child support of the black husband than a white husband would've had to deal with.
Cops harassed and threatened to arrest the black person trying to change a tire instead of offering help.
The person at the register accused the black person of stealing for no reason.
So yeah. Three examples. Bet you don't have the balls to answer my question though.
He was a holier than thou hypocrite. Dude had been drugging and raping women for years before he got on his high horse about that.
Fuck him.
Die Antwoord. The music tickles a particular part of my brain, but they're accused of some truly heinous shit.
Louis CK
I think the best thing that happened to Louis was his self-exile. If you recall…he didn’t actually get cancelled (well, his shows certainly did). He’s funny to this day and he’s got this built-in reason to stay humble. I thought Bill Burr was going to grab the mantle and stay great forever…but he just got too big and he’s not funny any more, a la Chapelle.
None of them actually get canceled. The only ones who even approach it are the miniscule few who were actually tried and convicted of their crimes. Which we really shouldn't think of as canceled cause it is what is supposed to happen.
Well…what I would consider “cancelled” is when a comedian has shows/tours cancelled and/or can’t book a comedy venue…and that’s happened plenty of times, traditionally for being a right wing lunatic. ie Shane Gillis. It’s why the Rogansphere exists. All the shitty hacks who couldn’t book venues can now play at whatever his club is called, in addition to being a podcaster or a move star or influencer or whatever.
That didn’t happen to Louis CK…he chose to stop playing comedy clubs for a time.
Bill Burr I think just mostly solved his anger issues and that hurt his comedy more than anything. Good for him and his wife, even if his fame drops off eventually he's fine financially and I'll still enjoy his older specials and the F is for Family cartoon.
Not many agree with me though and that's okay. I have a darker sense of humor, so he'll probably just find a new audience. I'm more of a Doug Stanhope stan.
It’s disappointing that money seemed to have solved Burrs issues to the point where he’d take millions to sell out the little guy when he was already rich.
Standhope is a great comic…a little nihilistic for me as a dude tho. The good thing about him is he made a deliberate choice to tour atypical venues rather than give a solitary inch to stay in the clubs.
he sold out to suadia arabia.
That’s what I said.
I wasn’t aware Standhope went to Saudi Arabia. If you have different information…I’m open to it.
Doug didn't I think they mean Bill Burr.
bill burr.
he knew ahead of time ported most of his content to an online site. BUT all these people went to saudia arabia comedy festival, so hes never been humble.
Humble should have been in parenthes.
I think you mean Lewis CK :)
I heard someone went on a date with him and he bought some insanely expensive watch on it. I think he didn't deal with the loneliness of fame well.
Thanks, I noticed it was wrong as soon as I hit post. Yeah, seems like he didn't deal with a lot of things too well. At least he seems genuinely contrite about his mistakes.
I’m not trying to apologize for his behavior, but in my read of the situation, he ASKED women if he could jerk off in front of them and sometimes did even without permission, but at no point does it seem like they were held hostage, touched physically or threatened. If he asked ME (hetero guy) I’d have just walked away and thought “what a weird asshole”.
The biggest problem is that he was in a position of power over those women and that makes it considerably harder to say no when the person asking could make or break your career.
This is going to get buried, but I miss Bill Cosby, or rather my mental model of him before all that nastiness came out.
He has even admitted himself that he was in a position of power over those women and that makes it considerably harder to say no when the person asking could make or break your career.
But I don't see someone like Louis capable of doing that.
He literally fucking did it.
I can’t see him swinging his influence around like that.
He didn't need to - the women felt the pressure anyway. We know because they told us.
He at least asked.
Low bar there.
Though he could’ve also asked if he could excuse himself or they could excuse themselves so he can have privacy
Dude, how are you writing comments defending him without even knowing that he was specifically interested in jerking off while the women watched? Like, that's his kink. I am inclined to believe that he genuinely acted out of cluelessness (as opposed to ill will or predatoriness) - but then again, I was a pretty big fan of his.
Yeah, but I reckon the saudi arabia trip was the final straw.
For that matter of fact, lost respect for all those who went to the saudi event, bill burr included.
fucking a. that one hurt, man.
but yeah, fuck him, and Bill Burr, and Jimmy Carr, and ... 😢
Oh shit, I heard so much about Bill Burr, I missed that Louis CK went, too.
Oh well, I liked Louis' comedy better than Bill's, but it's not like I'll really miss either of them.
No oppressed peasant in SA went to this show. It was entirely done for the SA elites to sanewash the country's tyranny by inviting other elites to the country to see a comedy show. You see, SA has realized that one of the biggest factors influencing their ability to project soft power is that most of the world wants nothing to do with their no-fun-allowed theocracy. So they do shit like this, and their golf and soccer tournaments, in order to create networking events for their tyrants to bring other oligarchs into the country.
That's true. And I mean it's not like America doesn't have blood on its hand and these comedians make their entire living in America. Even under the better presidents, US has done some vile shit.
I think the difference is that the government directly sponsored the program and paid out millions of dollars for them to do the shows. And personally it was the bill burr hypocrisy. He got millions of dollars to do sane-washing for a billionaire/trillionaire, while he bashes the same thing at home.
Oh look, someone who has no concept of power dynamics
I found this one difficult. Like they were comparing him to all the other MeToo incidents, like Cosby and Weinstein.
Which is like, there is a serious gradient of crime here. And weighing it all equally like it's black or white is problematic.
My tinfoil hat is all that accusation and black/white style of blame is what led to the manosphere gaining so much power and attention.
There was a period of time when MeToo was at it's height that there was very little nuance in how people reacted to any abusive behavior. Probably related to a dam bursting releasing emotions that had been pent up with these things going unpunished, and mostly ignored, for so long. And you're right, during this time people who should have apologized and shown some sort of behavior that made us believe it was sincere should have been able to return to public life after a period in the wilderness instead of being treated the same (socially, obviously they didn't get the same legal treatment) as Weinstein and Cosby.
I don't think your theory is tinfoil hat territory at all. I think a majority of people could go either way in life, on a wide range of things. Most people don't really give anything a lot of thought, they just fall into patterns dictated by their environment. If someone in their formative years is exposed to something that tickles their sense of unfairness and that leads them into shittier areas of the Internet, a person that could have ended up a nice, normal, boring person can be turned into a piece of shit.
Never meet your hero. There are some well known people out there that are great human beings, but just as many who are average or below, and being a celebrity won't help a bad personality get better (usually).
Not only for the reason to keep the illusion, but if I saw someone famous in public I wouldn't be that annoying fan that helps push some to the edge. At best I'd just mention I liked their work (not even saying specifics) and let it be. Again, they are people, and I know I don't like to be bothered with small talk from strangers.
A side note that is a bit related to breaking the false image. When you figure out that your parents and other relatives are just people too, with their own greatness and flaws. It's probably healthy in the long run, but the first shock can be nasty.
I guess I should name someone. Tom Cruise is always the first in my mind. Some incredible work, but he's both weird and given how embedded he is with Scientology, can't be that great of a person to know well. But maybe not... he is peculiar though.
I would love to meet the cast of Andor and Tony Gilroy, they seem amazing, intelligent, and down to earth. But going back to my point, at most all I'd be doing is telling them how great they were at their job, and hope that what they portray in interviews is who they really are.
I remember the Vanity Fair article about Cruise where he was having a tantrum at a dinner somewhere and saying "even my own sister can't get me a girlfriend". The article goes on to say that Scientology procured him a girlfriend but later on basically fired her. I don't think he understands human relationships.
My heroes are righteous men and women not wacky artists, lol. I can love their artistic output and still understand they'll burn in Hell. 🤷
I'm sure you understand that's a phrase, not an implication that artists are all heroes. But it does apply. The person you see do something great and heroic may also have certain things about them that would ruin your image you have in our mind created from the good actions. We're all people with potentials and flaws.
You're right, you're right... but their flaws wouldn't be as big as being a big Hollywood predator pedo, because I admire people for their righteous behaviour and wise insights, not their artistic contributions that are disassociated from their beliefs. I'm not saying I can't be fooled, of course, people lie and I'm not omniscient. I guess I just dislike the use of the word "hero" here because, even if it's "just a phrase", it might just say something about the value system of the person saying it.
I meant it as the phrase. The word itself for me has a very broad meaning contextually and is overused. I hope that gives a better impression of my value system.
It always gets me that Matthew Broderick killed two people in a car crash and got off with a $100 fine. I love Ferris Bueller's day off, and I think he's really talented, but like this happened just after that movie, and he just did not seem to be held to account for it.
Probably performers like Jared Leto and Marilyn Manson. They've made some great albums (A Beautiful Lie and Antichrist Superstar) and movie appearances (Requiem for a Dream and Lost Highway), but I understand why they give people the ick.
Agree on Leto.
Marylin Manson? Meh. Guy was a Fisher Price philosopher for tween goths….almost to the point of cult leader, he always got a pass on that. His appearance in The Lost Highway was purely aesthetic.
I love Manson's music and I always enjoy hearing him interviewed. I struggle with that too.
When was Leto even close to cancelled?
Not cancelled, but affected by serious allegations.
Yeah I'm going to have to push back on the affected part of your comment. As we both agree he hasn't been canceled and as some of those allegations are years old and as your article points out it's basically an Open Secret. Yet he's still been getting movies for years and has more projects on the way. Hell there were a few articles in June like this one when it was posted, but since then basically nothing. If he's affected it's clearly not seriously.
the latest fiasco was tron.
the joke going around, the latest TRON COVER, the reason where there is no women on the cover of poster, is no woman wants to be next to him. while every other tron poster has a female/male couple.
Al Franken
Phil Spector produced some of the best music of the twentieth century, including one of a handful of bearable Christmas albums in existence. Also he's a fucking murderer. So... bit of a mixed bag, there.
Naomi Wu a.k.a. SexyCyborg on youtube.
Unforgotten.
Got taken out (and we can only imagine how, but surely in a most effective way) of public life because she had the bad luck of living in China.
I don't think this person really fits the question, but I agree with the sentiment.
Same buddy. She burned so bright
I really enjoyed Lost Prophets music, but after what happened, I feel really weird about listening to it. I like it but I don't feel like I should.
I wouldn't recommend looking up what the singer did
I have learned a lesson today. From now on when someone says, "I wouldn't recommended looking into this," I think I'll just leave it alone.
I'm not even going to paraphrase for anyone curious. Just don't fucking look into it. Seriously, just don't. It will do legit psychic damage.
Same. I thought their album was going to change the scene. Haven't listened to it since he was convicted. He was stabbed to death in prison this year.
Good riddance tbh.
Same with Brand New
Genuine question, has your opinion changed now that the singer has died? In no way, shape or form is the person who sang the music benefiting in any way from you listening to it.
People often say to separate the art from the artist. In an acting role I kinda get it, because an actor is playing a different character. For music, it's kinda the same. The music is its own thing separate from the person. Maybe?
I don't know, not really. I feel like music embodies singers more, but I also realise that there was a whole innocent band attached to that too, that didn't know do or condone.
Its weird, I don't really know how to feel about it.
holds up my binder of CDs
I love that you have CDs though.
Any artist old enough to have popular CD albums for sure has done something bad.
And I'm old enough to have collected them in my youth.
If you want some real gut churning debauchery, look at my tape collection. For sure those guys are evil.
(I don't actually have a tape collection anymore)
What did . . . Steven Tyler! do?
Teenagers.
Goddammit.
If you feel like you can only like things made by people who haven't done anything wrong, ever, you're left with Mr Rogers and that's about it. Liking something someone made isn't an endorsement of their actions or opinions. Unfortunately we live in a hyper capitalistic society so buying their stuff can help them with their shitty opinions, so don't buy new Harry Potter stuff, but feel free to enjoy it.
I enjoy watching Jared Leto get beaten up in Fight Club...
Leto is impervious to cancellation somehow. He managed to tank Morbius in theaters not once but twice. Plus something like 9 sexual assault allegations. How are any studios still taking a risk on him? Either people are gonna hate any movie he's in, or he's going to get caught assaulting women again. Why, why, why, when there are so many men out there who are better actors and who don't assault their coworkers?
he has nepo-connections to executives no doubt, to rpevent his cancellations.
Because, unfortunately, he's basically the reason the movie got made. Nobody was really interested in making the movie, and he basically pushed to get it going with himself as the star.
I also am upset about this fact, and am not planning to watch it.
Marilyn Manson, I like his music.
Even after the rib thing??
You're talking about the rumor that he had some ribs removed so that he could autofellate? That's just pure and simple bs.
Yes, I'm aware. I just like making jokes online
No worries, I got to use autofellate in a sentence.
Don't ruin my childhood!
Close your eyes.
I do too. I pretty much hated all music made in the 90s; I think grunge is awful and so is NIN, but I felt like Manson was a natural extension of what bands like WASP and Motley Crue were doing but reinvented for that generation, and it's really good. I like music that has some concept and theater to it. I still listen to him.
I also like Die Antwoord; I think the accusations by their adopted son are total bullshit. I'm not saying they're good people and I do think they're homophobic, but also a lot of their image is obviously artificial and they obfuscate their true lives, it's clear from reading their interviews. I think they're genuinely average middle aged parents from South Africa, and I think what Ninja said about their son making accusations was to try to get money from them is true. I really dig their crazy music and their videos are insane.
I am with you about Grunge, I never understood the appeal for Nirvana and I think the accolades should go to the Screaming Trees and Alice and Chains. My favorite Manson album is Mechanical Animals. I know what you mean about Die Antword, the kid they adopted is an addict and I view him as an unreliable source.
Grunge is so dull. I am all for generations developing their own style of music without question but I can't believe we turned away from 80s music to THAT. I thought Nirvana was mediocre as can be. Love Mechanical Animals, but like all of his albums to some degree. I'm glad he's gotten back on his feet in life and got sober and lost the weight.
Die Antwoord, what Tokkie is saying just sounds so outlandishly fake. I don't think they're great people but I actually think they care a lot about their kids.
I always had a weird feeling about MSI mindless self indulgence. Now all doubt is removed....
Wait, what did they do?
Jimmy Urine has settled a lawsuit for grooming and abusing a 15 year old.
I really loved the music so much. This hit me like the Neil Gaiman story
Why is everyone a fucking pedo?
Having large amounts of money and power has similar effects as brain damage, so I could see this as a similar situation as the guy who had a tumor turn him into a pedo.
I think this is probably one of the most insightful comments.
Like, there is probably darkness in everyone. And I think I would be a good person with power but maybe it would be just as damaging for me and make my darkness rise too.
Still, fuck this shit and it’s good to be angry at people for treating vulnerable people like things.
It’s so hard to understand! Like it seems so obviously gross. But why is it ALL OVER THE PLACE‽
Is there something in the kind of brain that makes you take artistic risks that allows you to more easily think of people as things?
Why do we propel them?
That's a bit of backwards thinking imo.
They didn't get propelled because they're pedos.
When it comes to 14-17 year olds, I'm not sure if it's the youth per se that attracts so many of these people rather than the utter exploitability of someone that young and naive. Of course, my reasoning is somewhat motivated by really not wanting to believe that pedophilia itself is so widespread.
It's a struggle sometimes, but I think it's the only real control we have.
It's a case by case basis for me. Some actor being in a movie I like isn't a big deal to me, but when someone has like huge creative control over something it's like a visceral repulsion to me. I don't want to take a piece of media into my experience with the subtext that the author touches kids or something. It's not even just that I know these people do bad things, it's that personal views shape how people make stories etc, and I'm not fond of putting that into my psyche. If they do some fucked up shit in the book, I want to be able to know it's because this character is evil, not because the author is saying this is a normal healthy thing to do.
RHCP sucks because I think it's pretty good music, and I was really into them when I was a teen, but given everything I know about them now it makes it impossible to enjoy their stuff now.
After being burned by a dozen creators, I find it safer for my own emotional well-being to just assume all things beautiful and evocative are made by someone who is secretly a terrible person.
Saves me from the disappointment of finding out later.
I'm constantly surprised when it turns out someone famous isn't getting up to some bad shit.
Neil Gaiman. I'm afraid there won't be a third season of Good Omens.
Not the fresh prince of slappy slappington. That's for sure.
Tarantino.
I just know the guy's a dickhole.
Ye
The weird thing is that Kanye's continual digging through the bedrock has made his art that much more poignant to me. Man went and made himself a Greek tragedy. "Run Away" indeed.
Louis CK. He was my favorite comedian, but the first special after 'cancellation' had all the hallmarks of a washed up has been with grievances. But he's been back to his old form lately, and I still consider him the best comic of his generation.
Ricky Gervais and Norm MacDonald engage/ed in transbaiting. Which is not cool, okay, or acceptable. But they are geniuses I can't turn my back on.
Justin Timberlake. I’m in my mid 30s now so I don’t follow celebrity gossip as much as I did in my tween years but from what I’ve seen he didn’t do anything too bad? The DUI was really stupid but I thought that was mild compared to a lot of celebrities. Felt more like it was cool to hate him cos he’s been famous for a bit but no longer at the top. But I still think he’s a fantastic performer and some of the new songs are great.
it will be hard pressed for me to enjoy something if the artist/actor got cancelled.
asian ytubers i used to enjoy, i think thier content is funny, but after they became covid denying, magaty, women hating(whole drama that started all this), they were dropped like a rock by most of thier fans, only the aprasocial groupies, and incels are left, the last time i visited the sub.
Dave Mustaine
Ha he is crusty.
There is a line, I don’t have to love and agree with them on everything to enjoy an actor, but I refuse to support predators. Things like David Harbor cheating on his wife or the things people slammed Paul Reubens for I could really care less about, and I don’t give a fuck about their politics so long as they aren’t doing shit like J.K. Rowling and actively trying to ruin lives, however people like Diddy, Gaiman (whom I had personally loved for years), or Jared Leto can fuck off and die.
I still like Harry Potter. And Disney's Fillmore (lead actor was later arrested for domestic violence)
Garrison Keillor
The Vornheim City Kit is a great resource for urban RPG, even though the author is cancelled.
TBH I tried to understand why, and when I did, stuff was still going through courts. I'm too wary of extrajudicial condemnation to take a side, but his associate, the LotFP guy, always gave me the ick for his edginess. So I'll continue to enjoy the book I got long ago and forget about them.
Kevin Spacey. 'K-Pax' and 'Swimming With Sharks' were so good.
Kanye can be as insane as he wants to be, it doesn't make Yeezus and TLOP any worse. 🤷 TBF I live a somewhat minimalistic life and I don't buy albums or anything, haven't gone to a concert in almost two decades... but a bop is a bop.
i love kanye sm i really think he has some bad mental issues. which doesn't excuse his actions esp since he seems to not try and get help. but like dude was/is going through some serious shit and is an addict and it's just sad especially since he's so talented
Doug TenNapel.
Dude is a level 10 bastard. But Earthworm Jim was very influential to me as a kid.
The characters and the sense of humor; It just spoke to me in a weird and powerful way.
The games, the comics, even the short lived cartoon show was not too shabby.
Ga-roovy!
R. Kelly's music slaps.
Also he wrote & produced for damn near the whole industry, so the tree of artists you would have to dodge to not listen to his work is staggering.
Anti-Flag.
Absolutely sucks who Justin Sane turned out to be, but the music the group made together are still absolute bangers.
Salvador Dali, he was not exactly cancelled per se because he is long dead but guy did some fucked up shit
Borns made some of the best indie pop on the radio, got in trouble for grooming, disappeared. One of the most heartbreaking losses musically for us. Then years later tried a comeback but seems to be an unrepentant whiny bitch now, the song he released was so bad. It seems to have broken him.
I still think his early stuff is so good.
Ender's Game is a great book, and I did keep my Neil Gaiman books, the ones I already have.
I think in general (obviously there are exceptions) broken people make the greatest art, it's hard to have that drive when you don't have some sadness inside you, dissatisfaction, some missing part you are trying to fill. And with old guys (not Garrett Borns) they did grow up in a different time - I don't think that excuses them, but it does explain it. My mom thought Jerry Lee Lewis marrying his 14 year old cousin was scandalous but wouldn't have thought it criminal or really wrong.
Vektor released three progressively more amazing albums of prog thrash before their label dropped them after domestic abuse allegations against the frontman.
Infiltration was an amazing Street Fighter pro who was sometimes completely unstoppable and really fun to watch. At least until he also faced domestic abuse allegations. He got banned from some competitions, his sponsor dropped him, and he nearly completely disappeared. The situation also anecdotally sounds like it's not just a case of "oh he beat his wife" and possibly was in a mutually abusive relationship. But a judge convicted him based on "a wrist injury and bruises" and that was basically the end of his career.
Hardly anyone will know it because it's an Argentinian band. Bersuit Vergarabat. The former singer is an extremely machist asshole, but damn the band was so much better back then.
Kevin Spacey. He's just such a good actor, I like every movie he's in. The first season of House of Cards was amazing too.
I wonder if you know what you mean when you talk about people being canceled. Looking at all of the answers, I see all of these people who have done things that raised some public pressure against them and yet many of them are still active in public life. So they didn't get canceled?
Seriously, can you give me a list of people who actually got canceled, where they had to abandon their entire career and never got it back? And who weren't close to retirement age at the time? Of course, let's exclude the people who got locked up in prison because that's about being convicted of a crime, not about social justice.
Pogo. his music is so fucking good, but the guy is a homophobic piece of shit.
All of them whose work is any good. I give 0 fucks what society (especially the holier-than-thou) thinks & can separate the artist from their work. It's really not that hard. 🤷
Diddy just wanted to party.
Scott Adams. Author of the "Dilbert" comics.
Such an extraordinary humorist and brilliant thinker! Got canceled for political opinion, a few statements that were taken as racist, but which I guess >90% of Americans would get away with.
I nearly had to vomit when I learned how and why the media industry suddenly censored all the comics and everything else that he published.
Just checked his Wikipedia page. I am having a hard time understanding how you are justifying what he has said. He’s a piece of shit who made a funny comic.
Yeah, I agree, except for the funny part. Dilbert is only a half-step above Garfield in terms of humor, and is almost as badly drawn.
The comic isn't even funny
I am not American. To me "to justify" is not the same as "to get away with".
So because you are not American, the crappy things he said do not make him a crappy person? How does that make sense?
He is why I believe in lead poisoning.
Too many times do I see creators who were brilliant and pushing a really specific forward thinking agenda, only for 1-2 decades later to be completely against it.
Such an extraordinary humorist and brilliant thinker!
The guy who wrote Dilbert? Really?
(Original comment for posterity:)
I always disagreed with the world a bit on Will Smith’s big slap. I think he shouldn’t have done it, but I also think it was over-demonized. I recognize the preceding conversation as basically Hart making fun of a woman for having cancer. That doesn’t deserve a slap, but I understand why it happened. People have brought up prior drama in the Smith family but it always felt irrelevant to me.
The other bit to it is the feeling that “Violence is never the answer. Ever.” That’s a good sentiment to have when a parent is angry at their children. But there are some really horrible people in the world. People who don’t react to logic, reason, or emotion; and who pretend that they do in order to get what they want. When pushed past all reasonable limits by some people, violence should be the answer. A lot more people in this world deserve to get slapped. Whether Kevin Hart is one of those? I don’t know. I certainly don’t think of him as a saint.
EDIT: Yup, so I misremembered a LOT of details on this, and did not think to fact check them. I remember having all the facts at one point (as several said, it wasn’t cancer, just hair loss) and forming my opinion back then; and forgot a lot of details since. I still very much deserve downvotes for that of course, just admitting my ignorance.
Will Smith slapped Chris Rock
She also didn't have cancer? How'd bro get this so wrong?
She didn't have cancer, she had hair loss. It isn't something to "make fun of someone for" but the scientific term they tried to use at the time to make it sound like it was some horrific disease (alopecia) is the same name used for male pattern baldness.
People would be bitch slapping people daily if it was considered a normal response. Would it teach people to not make fun of others, maybe... Or it would just end in more violence
Haha, imagine giving a shit about an artist's views and actions outside of the art they create. I don't expect my doctor or political representative to be a good painter. Why would I expect my painter to give me medical advice or represent me politically? They're completely different activities and I look for different people to perform them.
Imagine not being able to read the title correctly. It's not about your painter thinking differently or voting differently. It's about your painters actions.
He made a beautiful, remarkable signed painting. It's the center piece in your living room. And then it comes out he was was abducting, raping, and killing women.
The painting looks the same. 1 week later his name will fade and no one remembers. But you might feel a lot differently about it knowing it was his painting. I'm not gonna claim it's right or wrong whatever you decide. You do you. But im sure you can appreciate the potential moral dilemma.
They mentioned actions.
While the work itself is a consideration, I consider respect of logic & rationality a higher consideration, so I absolutely loathe when people draw on irrelevant considerations (a genetic fallacy or guilt by association) to judge a work or the people who like it. Negative experiences with irrationality lead me to judge it as immoral & worthy of contempt.
Let's be real here, if the artist created great work and then was also a killer, not only is the painting still just as aesthetically pleasing as it always was, but if we are going to care about what they did outside of the art, it only makes the art more interesting as an example of the varied nature of humanity. The same individual produced heinous murder and exquisite beauty.
Sure, but you displaying it also communicates to your guests that you're not disgusted enough by his actions to remove it, and also that you're not embarrassed that you financially supported someone evil.
That makes an assumption that it is one's moral responsibility to dispose of work made by someone who did something wrong. That's pure circular argument. As for supporting someone evil, that might apply if you bought it after you found out what they were doing, but it is absurd to complain about something someone did with no way of knowing what it might go toward. It is also absurd to require people to investigate every facet of every possible person they could interact with. If you are walking down the street and meet someone running a hotdog cart, will you hold off on the purchase until you can run a background check? What if they're actually 'evil?' *furious eyebrow wiggles* This kind of purity policing is silly, like placing the burden of climate change on the person who didn't separate their recycling.
Hey you said the negative history of the artist made the art more interesting, so i was just saying it's more nuanced than that. We all (me definitely) own stuff from evil people/ corporations, but art is different because it's not meant to be functional, it's meant to make you feel something. It's more susceptible to changing meaning based on creator than a T- shirt, a phone, or a pair of shoes
That is certainly a personal preference someone might have. But the point is, if you know the painting you have displayed, is made by a child molester. You might not feel particularly comfortable with having his painting. Despite it being an otherwise beautiful piece of art.
I don't care if Hitlers paintings are worth lots of money today. I wouldn't want it anywhere near my place.
And that kind of knee-jerk avoidance of anything uncomfortable is at the core of reactionary thinking. If it makes you uncomfortable to be near something a child molester has touched, will you abandon their victims? The home they lived in? The clothes which they owned once but that others could use? The sidewalk they walked along to get to the scene of their crimes? Shall we all expel the things that make us uncomfortable? Some people are made uncomfortable by foreigners, and people who look different. Don't tell me 'but that's different.' It's not. It's the same reactionary childishness, and it might make you uncomfortable to acknowledge it, but that's why we can't use discomfort as a measure.
First off, Nice strawman by the way.
Second, It is FAR from the same thing. I'm not uncomfortable being near something some awful person have been near. People have walked on the street I walk on, for several hundreds of years. I have no doubt some truly terrible people have traversed that road.
But I don't want their artwork at display in my house. What I put on display in my house, is a reflection of me and my taste. Which is why I don't want to have such artwork from such a person.
If you're fine with it, good for you. I have not once said it would be wrong. I've not once said no one can or should have such things. Only that I personally, wouldn't want to.
You not being able to differentiate what people are comfortable with in their own home, and what they tolerate in public, is the centerpiece of your argument. Not a particularly strong foundation since it's based on nothing but your own misconception
Being uncomfortable with it in your own home is only different in that you actually have some control over what is displayed in your own home, but the irrational judgement of the art based on the non-artistic conduct of the artist exists regardless of whether you have the power to force your judgement onto others. It all still applies. There is an implied moral superiority in the statement of 'You do you, but I would never,' in the same vein as someone who makes a point to say to gay people, 'You do you, but I would never.' Saying 'I didn't say you couldn't do it' is the same 'I'm not saying anything like that. I'm just asking questions,' excuse people use to get away with making all sorts of implications that they know they can't really justify.
You're the one reading into it. We're talking about art. People like different art. And that's ok. I do not imply any form of superiority, moral or otherwise when I say "you do you". So you can scratch that off.
I have loads of stuff around my place that honestly, are not particularly beautiful or amazing in any way. But the artist is very dear to me, for various reasons. So I like to have them on display.
Why does it matter so much to you that some people would prefer to avoid artists due to their conduct? It doesn't affect you. You just want to make it about yourself, by thinking that we judge you for listening/watching/buying/whatever from the artist. The world doesn't revolve around you.
I don't think you're a bad person for enjoying Chris Browns music. I don't think about you, at all.
It's not about me. It was never about me or some art that I don't have. It's about you and people like you, and the lies hidden in silence.
The issue is not with the 'you do you,' but with the 'but I would never.' People only express the negation as applicable. You wouldn't, for instance, say 'I would never run backwards to Turkmenistan,' because there is no reason to assume you would. If we all spent time saying the obvious negatives, we'd be babbling non-stop from waking to exhaustion. It's more like the guy who says 'I would never wear a dress.' It doesn't say openly that there's something wrong with wearing the dress, but he wants you to know he's not one of those lowly dress-wearers so badly that he's going out of his way to say it. When you say 'but I would never display such'n'such class of art,' it is inherently a disavowal to place yourself apart from those who would. It is a signal, not silence. You can ignore the hypocrisy of your pretence, but it's there regardless. The prejudice of the 'but' phrase is just as present in 'but I would never' as it is in whatever follows 'I'm not a racist, but...'
I don't know what you are smoking. But you need to stop. For your own good.
You're trying to go into this massive tangent away from the topic and I'm just not going to follow.
I've already told you clearly what I mean and what I don't mean. I'm not going to argue with you about how you personally percieve something. I'm sorry you feel that way.
I love ice cream, but I would never order a banana split. So that means I judge those that do? That I see myself above those that like banana split? The answer is no. I just don't like banana split. You do you. Each to their own. Whatever floats your boat.
There is a reason you are saying each thing you are saying. Saying 'but I would never order a banana split' in this context has a different subtext than if you said it after watching someone else order one. I won't re-explain it, because I was fairly clear, but yes, saying 'I would never' is an inherently judgemental negation of the supposedly non-judgemental 'you do you.' It is trying to claim both the stance of 'I don't judge,' and 'I am judging.' It is a lie, either to the listener or to yourself.
I don't like liars, but I try to give people a chance to realize their mistake, if it is one, by explaining their error. After that, I have to assume idiocy or ill will. Whichever it is, goodbye.
I'm still not going to argue with you about how you percieve the phrase "you do you". And why you so desperately want to double down on that tangent is beyond me.
It's a new level of arrogance trying to tell me what I mean when I say "you do you". When i already explained what I mean with it after your initial confusion.
You got 2 brain cells, both fighting for third place. God bless and good luck.
Why would I expect my painter to give me medical advice or represent me politically?
That'd be like expecting the lead singer of the Offspring to do a Ted talk on molecular biology or the guitarist from Rage Against The Machine to debate political science.
Madness!
But you wouldn't expect the guitarist of Rage Against the Machine to give a talk on molecular biology. Just because one musician can do a thing, we do not expect all musicians to do those same things.
It's weird how they all have skills you're overlooking.
It's unfortunately not weird, but common, that you're unable to admit your counterexample was not applicable because it ignores the vast majority of artists who, while they each may have other skills, are not indicated as having other skills by their status as an artist.
You're right that we shouldn't expect them to align the majority if the time, but it's not a reaction to the way things SHOULD be. If the person who disagrees with you gets a bunch of money they can wield it against your interests, and they will. It's a shitty matter of pragmatism that people have been forced to widen their view.
I doubt most people enjoy the situation society has landed us all in, we just wanted cool music and instead we get cool music with celebrity endorsed PACs hiding just out of view.
Most artists don't have anything like that kind of cash or cache. Maybe some of the big corporate marketing babies but not many outside of that. I don't have a significant worry that some guy is going to use my few dollars from bandcamp to push some political party regardless of their beliefs, and I don't listen to marketing-powered, soulless pop nonsense that gets the kind of money behind it I'd have to care about.
Sure, if you only listen to small artists and you drop them when they get too popular I guess you can preempt this whole problem, but I don't think practically you're going to see all the fans drop an artists as they start blowing up.
I think what actually happens is that someone sells out and gets too much money and keeps coasting until a backlash drives their fans away from them actively (canceling). It would be nice if your self governing system worked but I just don't have confidence it will ever overpower the marketing snowball effect.
Again I don't think people are happy with how things are; it just seems to be how shit shakes out in an attention economy.
Depressingly, yeah. I keep circling back around to how harmful advertising and marketing are to society. We need to ban advertising, full stop.