Request to speakers of languages other than English, French and German
2mon 25d ago by lemy.lol/u/shads in asklemmy@lemmy.ml
Hi thanks for looking at my query. I recently as a joke changed some writing on the board of a friends EAL (English as an Additional Language) classroom from English to German. She liked the idea, but using Google Translate resulted in an overly formal phrasing that made it seem more a demand than a suggestion or polite request.
So my ask, if you speak (or I guess write) another language I would love to request you take a moment to translate "Please stack chairs at the end of the day" into whichever language you can help me with, it should be a polite request though.
I'm really not sure what the composition of her class is but she is a fan of languages as a whole so even if it's not a language that is represented in her class I am sure it will be a bit of fun and a talking point to figure it out.
If you have the time and the skills to help I really appreciate it, otherwise I appreciate you taking the time to read this post. Have a fantastic day.
Spanish: "Por favor, apila las sillas al final del día." It can be more polite if you add a "Gracias" at the end to give thanks before hand: "Por favor, apila las sillas al final del día. Gracias."
Edit: you can change "apila" for "apile" to be even more polite. "Por favor, apile las sillas al final del día. Gracias."
Gracias.
Do you mind if I ask, what makes "apile" more polite than "apila"?
Ok, sorry to come across as ignorant, but to pick a random example would this be the difference between "Excuse me" and Excuse me sir/ma'am?" The content remains the same but it's usage would fall more into a formal way of speaking?
If you as an adult were addressing a class of teenagers but were only making a request, not a demand would either be more appropriate?
Thanks for the insight I really appreciate it.
Italian has a similar thing, where it uses the "her" ("Lei", often implied and capitalised when explicit) pronoun conjugation as a formal structure, regardless of the person's gender. From what the other Spanish commenters have said I would say it differs from it in that it conveys respect more than kindness, so it would sound weird in your context - but it might also be because I would translate the "command" version in the 2nd person plural and this only applies to the singular.
It used to be used with your parents not that long ago, that is almost completely gone now but it is still very common when talking to your teachers, businesses, officers, old people, in letters, etc. It is also the default between strangers, but that has been slowly changing since the 2000s. It's called "dare del lei" (lit. "To give the her"), and "possiamo darci del tu?" is a common question to "handshake" use of the regular 2nd person.
I'm super grateful for the explanation, does it make sense that I lack an adequate frame of reference for this? I did Latin many years ago, poorly. Since then it's been primarily English with a touch of guidebook Japanese phrases. I just don't have the mental agility to make the connections. But I am curious and when I am no longer working shift work I might delve into some language learning to improve the neural elasticity.
It does, it's a very weird thing if you're not used to it, you're not dumb or anything. I recognize it's a completely alien concept, there is no analogue in English, and it stacks on top of the singular and plural "you"s being different and having gendered words making it extra difficult to fully conjugate a sentence for speakers of languages that lack those features. But 90% of the time the meaning gets across anyway and we don't care :) (unless you're French /j)
Not the person you asked, but a native Spanish speaker myself. The formal way to say "excuse me" (for example to a teacher or boss, or to a stranger on the street if you wish to be polite) would be "disculpe señor/a", or "discúlpeme señor/a". You can also remove señor/a and simply say "disculpe" or "discúlpeme" to anyone and it will still carry the same meaning, since the verb in both cases already implies it's about yourself.
The informal way would be "disculpame" or "discúlpame", although in this case adding señor/a sounds way off. You can definitely add a name though, ie, "discúlpame Shads" and that would be okay.
Edit: as for your specific request of an adult teacher asking something to the students, that would depend a lot on the relationship they have, some teachers are distant while others get more familiar with time. I've seen both. By all means the formal one would always be correct. I've seen teachers with a usually more relaxed or casual approach revert to the formal when they are getting serious or upset.
You know the more I reflect on this the more sure I am that I am falling into a trap that I am sure a lot of English speakers fall into. I am trying to apply English rules to Spanish as there is a shared language root and a bunch of shared words and at some level syntax. I need to acknowledge that Spanish is a distinct mature language and trying to treat it as a different dialect of English is a wall I need to stop butting my head off.
Really appreciate you stepping in to clarify for someone with my calcified language abilities, the lack of comprehension is entirely my own.
I think I will go with "Por favor, apila las sillas al final del día. Gracias." and save deeper understanding until I can devote more time and mental energy to understanding Spanish as Spanish.
You rock!
Fair conclusion, but don't be so hard on yourself. Honestly as a native speaker these things don't come across as "rules" for me even though of course they have rules. It's just the natural and obvious way of using the language. And that's something very hard to get right if you weren't raised with that language. In other words, I've heard a gazillion people say so many examples of phrases in Spanish since before I have memory, that hearing or seeing something outside of the expected pattern stands out immediately, but I can't always explain why.
It's unreasonable to expect ever having the same level of fluency with a language you weren't raised with. I've been speaking English half my life and I still screw up sometimes.
Thank you, I should disclose that I am a Gen X Australian, we do self deprecation at a super advanced level. I absolutely get that language becomes so engrained that things just don't sound/read as correct for reasons you would understand if you took the time to think about them, but you don't really have to expend any effort to know it.
I promise I'm not being too hard on myself just accepting there's things I don't know and haven't earnt a shortcut to bypass learning to understand.
Also, if you are adhressing the request to a group, it could be better to go with "Por favor apilen las sillas al finalizar el día", plural
That's a great point, thank you.
In spanish there are two ways to refer to people, one is formal and another one is informal. When you want to talk to someone in a formal way you must use verbs in a special form with a special personal pronoun called "usted".
Formal way: "Usted es muy guapo" (You are so handsome).
Informal way: "Eres muy guapo" (You are so handsome).
Look how in the first sentence we used "usted" and then we used the verb "ser" in third person and in present tense. In the second example we use directly the verb "ser" in imperfect tense. I could wrote "Por favor, usted apile las sillas al final del día. Gracias", but that's too much formal, to the point that can be felt like passive-agressive to some people, since people doesn't use "usted" too often before the verb. Even you can say "Es muy guapo" too keep the formal but more in a casual way.
I'm a native speaker, not a teacher or something, so, please, refer to this site to get more information. https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usted
Non-native Spanish speaker, but I believe it's in the directness of the command. Apila is telling someone to do it, whereas apile is just saying it needs to be done.
Sorry, but is not like that. I've responded already to its question.
Wouldn't the tu version be apilas? I'm not super familiar with that particular verb.
Yeah, but that would be in active tense. "Apilas las sillas" would be "You stack the chairs".
Ah, cool. If I understand, what I would achieve with extra verbosity in English is achieved by conjugation in this example. Or I am speaking out of my posterior. Either way thanks for the clarification.
Yeah, something like "las sillas deben apilarse" is not a direct translation but the idea is there.
To everyone except me in this comment thread, I respect your superior knowledge, ability to translate between different languages and thank you for your time.
I would love to devote the time to learning Spanish, but I am afraid that's not practical for me right now.
That being said I obviously need to learn a little more about how this works so I will do some further reading about "usted".
You all rock! Thanks again!
Por favor empilhar as cadeiras no fim do dia (passive voice) Por favor empilhe as cadeiras no fim do dia (imperative)
Portuguese
Obrigado
Portuguese: "Por favor empilhar as cadeiras ao final do dia"
Obrigado.
I've always wondered, if you know, how difficult is it to be clearly understood between Portuguese and Brazilian Portuguese?
I have family who speak with a strong enough Scottish accent that understanding is very difficult for some people, but also there are words they use that are just different than what people in other English speaking parts of the world use. Is it like that, or less, or more?
I would say it is very similar to what you said. Different accent and some different meanings of more colloquial words. There are some common European Portuguese slangs that have sexual meaning in Brazilian Portuguese, so some Portuguese ads have gone viral in Brazil.
Cool, thank you!
Finnish:
Pinoathan tuolit päivän päätteeksi, kiitos.
We don't have a word for please, so we usually add thank you for politeness.
Kiitos
The lack of "Please" took me a moment to process, but I guess it's just a linguistic niche that the language didn't need to fill, and the use of "Thank You" made it redundant. Cool, thank you!
Greek: Παρακαλώ στοιβαξτε της καρέκλες στο τέλος της ημέρας. And Albanian: Ju lutem vendosni karriget njëra mbi tjetrën në fund të ditës.
Σας ευχαριστώ
And
Faleminderit shumë
I really like that I am seeing common or similar words between languages.
Polish: Po zajęciach proszę złożyć razem krzesła.
Literał: after lectures please stack chairs together.
I could translate it more literal to original but no one speaks like this so any close translation from English would sound weird for my taste.
Dziękuję
(I hope that's correct)
That's a perfect interpretation of my intent, if she has any Polish students (or people familiar with Polish) I hope that will bring a smile.
I’m sure some other Pole will come here and make even better version of this tho. We have this saying “where’s two Poles there’s three opinions” and while helping with UI translations I noticed this is not just a saying, it’s a fact. Especially when it comes to our language. :)
I love that! I mentioned elsewhere, but this is a frivolous kind of request, I am so grateful for people willing to indulge it. But I didn't realise the cultural context would be so enjoyable. Thanks again!
I believe in esperanto it should be
bonvolu stakigi la seĝojn ĉe la fino de la tago
Literally translates to something like
"Please make stacked the chairs at the end of the day"
Dankon
Esperanto seems like an interesting language to study, do you find my opportunities to use it?
Basically none. A couple friends have learned a little bit with me, and I've sought out a couple Esperanto books, podcasts, etc.
But otherwise I can't say that I've ever randomly run into another esperantist I could talk to, and I'm not the type of person who seeks out clubs and conventions or making friends with strangers online.
But it's an easy language to learn, and I feel like it's taught me how to learn a language, and I think that I'll be better prepared if I ever decide to try picking up another language somewhere down the line.
And while I'm not holding my breath, I like the idea of an international auxiliary language, and while there's some valid criticism of Esperanto for that purpose (like that it's too eurocentric) it's probably about the best option that we have right now since it already exists, there's people who actually speak it and it doesn't have all of the weird grammar rules and such that natural languages all tend to have.
Awesome, you actually answered all the questions I had bubbling away in my head but didn't want to be too presumptive in asking. More decades ago than I care admit, I did a 25 hour Latin course. Very little of it stuck with me but it seems like Esperanto could fill a similar niche to the one I was trying to fill by learning latin, as a bridging language to be more capable in the Romance languages. I'm sure there are studies out there on language as sociology, as the largest con-lan I am aware of I wonder how deep that research runs? Another thing for me to read up on I guess.
Thanks again!
I've never dived too deep into in, but I know there has been some research into native Esperanto speakers (denaskuloj) because that's a thing that exists
And isn't that amazing, a conciously constructed language having native speakers is just kind of amazing. So much of English is legacy cruft that has accumulated organically since it seperated from Old English, and so much of Old English was likewise accumulated from its antecedents. A language, any language with a clear dilineation has an opportunity to start with a clean slate that is informed but not slaved to the past. Things like vowel orders can be made as rules without having more exceptions than complying words. Brilliant.
Yes, Esperanto has many advantages of a manufactured language, but I think there are only something like 2 million speakers worldwide. If someone wanted to dip their toes into it, Harry Harrison's Stainless Steel Rat series has Esperanto sprinkled throughout it, and has been translated into Esperanto. He was a fan. You certainly won't learn it reading his (English) books, but the structure is very recognizable.
Probably the coolest thing since I started learning it is some of the weird places it turns up
If you read the comic series Saga, the "blue" language is Esperanto
It shows up in the background of some movies and such as a generic "foreign" language
The watch brand Movado is an Esperanto word (movement)
I first heard of it thanks to Red Dwarf if that counts for anything.
"Пожалуйста, составьте стулья в стопку в конце дня" -- Russian;
You can do either "Молим вас, сложите столице на краjу дана" or "Molim vas, složite stolice na kraju dana" for Serbian
Спасибо Or хвала ти
Is Cyrillic or Latin more used in Serbia? I like the novelty of trying to write Cyrillic clearly enough to be read but want to make sure I am using the more common form.
The government mostly operates in Cyrillic, in everyday life I'd say it's 50/50
Greek:
Παρακαλώ στοιβάχτε τις καρέκλες στο τέλος της ημέρας.
ωραίος φίλε.
Σας ευχαριστώ
Hope I can write that nice an clearly.
100% correct on the greek part!
The Greek part was copied off the web. I meant that I hope I can correctly write the Greek characters on the whiteboard. Hope they are legible.
Danish: Stabel venligst stolene når dagen er omme
Literal translation: Stack please chairs when day is over
Det er sjovt, originalt havde "stable" bydeformen "stabl", som selvfølgelig ser skaber ud. Er det ændret i ordbogen siden?
Aner det ikke, retstavning er ikke min stærke side. Synes i hvert fald bare at "stabl" så helt forkert ud Så det blev vibe-stavet til noget der visuelt så korrekt ud 😛
Helt fair, det er også sådan det siges jo. Og jeg tror måske også det efterhånden er blevet sådan man skriver det :)
Tak
I am always fascinated by differences in sentence structure. Plus seeing the literal translatuon makes me think of the times I have talked with Danes who have found English sentence structure odd.
In Japanese I would say:
一日終わったら、椅子を重ねてください。
I wrote this on the board but my form was not as good as it might have been, the students corrected the mistakes I made and left me the following note: オッケー、まかせろ
Would this be an appropriate response, or would it come across as incorrect, rude or condescending?
先生方、ご意見をいただきありがとうございます。
I am so sorry, I didn't receive a notification of your answers. It's late, but I'll answer anyway ^^
Regarding your message to write them back, starting with 先生方 seems wrong because you're answering to students and 先生 means teacher.
生徒方 is not something I have heard of, and it seems waaaay too strict to address to young people.
Regarding the tone of their message, it's very friendly and is "slangish" even. まかせろ instead of 任せてください。
If you want to answer in the same vibe, I would simply say: よろしくね＾＾ or something along those lines.
For something more formal: ご協力ありがとうございます would be good IMO.
Note: I am not native Japanese, take my advice with a fistful of salt ^^
Ahh my friend, nothing to be sorry about at all. I am afraid I already replied. But they seemed to take it well. I'm not a teacher myself and wanted to imply they were teaching me but not sure if that was lost in translation.
ありがとう
You answered 5 minutes before my sister in law. I am reasonably certain my friend has at least one Japanese student so I know this is one the class will be able to read.
走之前唔該疊翻好啲櫈
^Cantonese version. It means "Before you leave, please stack the chairs"
多謝你
I was hoping for Cantonese, I'm almost certain there will be students in the class who will be able to read it, thank you for the translation and the interpretation.
Hell yeah
The translation also implies that the chairs were stacked in a tidy way before, while the original English version didn't say that.
In Cantonese I really don't think there's a way to say "at the end of the day". In English it can mean "before one leaves work or school", "before one goes to sleep", or just "sunset".
Zde prosím odložte židle na konci dne 🇨🇿
Hey, I randomly selected a language to go first and it ended up being Czech. I got a reply under my note: Ano! Yea! But I must admit I am reasonably certain it was a machine translation. I don't believe there were any Czech speakers in the class.
My friend was SUPER excited by the new language and apparently it sparked a good conversation in her class, she couldn't wait to see what's next.
Thank you again!
Pleased to hear that!!
The Ž is pronounced like the J in J'ai m'appelle
Děkuju
Luckily for all of us I won't need to mangle the language by trying to speak it (I'm sure my accent and pronunciation would be awful).
But I am glad to know about that pronunciation, I know so little about your language it's great to find out a little more.
Haha :-) Actually Czech is refreshingly straight-forward to pronounce – it's a phonetic language, meaning that once you know what sound each letter makes, you literally just string them together!
I am a simple, brain addled, English as a first language speaker in a majority English speaking country. I am afraid I would need to actively seek to learn further languages and there never seems to be enough time or mental capacity. I have infinite respect for everyone than can learn more than one language, especially when the languages they know are widely divergent or don't share the same language root. But I might have to give Czech a look and see if I can pick up a little pronunciation. Thanks again!
If Cyrillic is fine you can say in Ukrainian “Будь ласка складіть стільці наприкінці дня”. I’ll transliterate with polish spelling as it’s closest sounding language I know, not perfect but best I can do: “bud laska skladit stilci naprykici dnia”
дякую
I have been hoping for a few different alphabets, so Cyrillic is perfect, just means I will have to work hard to copy it correctly.
May I ask is that a direct translation?
Yes, literally says
please (будь ласка) stack (складіть) chairs (стільці) at the end (наприкінці) of the day (дня)
Ukrainian, like many slavic languages, has no articles and uses grammatical cases
Cool, I am finding this so fascinating. Thanks for helping and giving me a little window into a language I haven't ever had a chance to examine.
🇰🇷 Korean: 일과를 마친 후 의자를 쌓아 주세요.
감사합니다
I am shamed to admit that after 5 years of Tae Kwon Do and Hapkido as a kid, all I remember is hana, dul, ses and dollida.
Italian: "Per favore, aiutateci ad impilare le sedie alla fine della giornata"
Direct translation aside from "aiutateci" which means "help us" to make it more of a friendly request than a command - the verb goes into the indefinite form so it's not "aimed" at anyone. I think "lezione" (lesson) would work more naturally than "giornata" (day) as that usually means either sunset or when you go to bed
Grazie mille.
Thanks for the interpretation as well, makes perfect sense. I will certainly use this soon.
Side note: Forget Google Translate. Better try deepl.com instead.
I'll keep that in mind, but to be honest, this has been so much fun. I love that there is a community of people willing to devote even a tiny fraction of their brain power to such a frivolous request. Plus I am getting all sorts of little fun side details. I would never ask anyone to give me more than a few seconds of their time, but this whole thing has already put a smile on my face.
In future I'll check out DeepL though. Have a great day.
Hungarian: Kérlek szépen, pakoljátok egymásra a székeket a nap végén!
Note that the accents should be written perfectly vertically, not slanted
Köszönöm
If I am reading this correctly you have provided a more direct translation than Algernon did in another comment, is that like in English where the sentence structure is flexible enough for either version to read naturally, or in Hungarian is there a better way of expressing the sentiment?
Bojlereladó!! Sounds interesting? Could you explain it to a poor ignorant angol anyanyelvű?
like in English where the sentence structure is flexible enough
it’s more flexible actually
In mine ai say that the global theme is “stacking the chairs”, meanwhile they say that the topic is “at the end of the day”
Both are perfectly correct it just depends on what you want to emphasise
Cool, thank you for the clarification.
Bojlereladó!! Sounds interesting? Could you explain it to a poor ignorant angol anyanyelvű?
Randomly remembered that I forgot to answer this (my brain works in ways beyond everybody’s comprehension, especially mine)
Basically, you say “Bojlereladó” (lit.: “water boiler for sale”) when you meet fellow Hungarians online
Sure, why not! Thanks for getting back to me, again. Its little cultural things like this that I enjoy the most.
Hindi - कृपया दिन के अंत में कुर्सियों को इक्कठा करके रख दें। (Kripya din ke ant me kursiyon ko ikkattha krke rakh dein.)
Punjabi - ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਰਕੇ ਦਿਨ ਦੇ ਅੰਤ ਵਿੱਚ ਕੁਰਸੀਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਕਠ੍ਹਾ ਕਰ ਦਿਓ। (Kirpa krke din de ant wich kursiyan nu kattha kar deo.)
Vocally, these two sound very similar, as if one is a different dialect, but are actually considered different languages. Also, I didn't do exact translation, I used what someone would say when they mean this. Like instead of saying stacking, I am saying collect, bringing them together or something like that.
धन्यवाद
This is exactly what I was after. Thank you. Other than being patient and careful any hints for writing Hindi or Punjabi on a whiteboard? If I make small mistakes am I likely to offend anyone? I would rather like to use Devanagari and Gurmukhi (I think those are the correct names for the scripts) if I can mange it.
Umm... If you write दिन as दीन, it is supposed to sound different. First is din (shorter e sound), second one would be spoken as deen (llonger e sound). In some cases words could mean something else if these vowel sounds are different, but would not offend anyone. Same thing in Gurmukhi. Also, Punjabi can be written in Shahmukhi script (in which Urdu is written) which is actually the standard in Pakistan. In India, it is written in Gurumukhi only.
Wow, thanks I didn't realise there were regional differences in the script. I'm not sure if there any Pakistani or Indian students in the class so maybe I should stick to the Hindi version so that no one feels overlooked. Between the Hindi, Japanese and Cantonese it looks like I will be getting a lot of practise reproducing script I can't read before I give them a go. I think I have enough people who can proof read my practise and let me know if I am close enough. This is seeming like it will be a bigger commitment (and more fun) than I expected. Wish me luck.
@shads@lemy.lol @asklemmy@lemmy.ml
Brazilian Portuguese: "Por gentileza, empilhe as cadeiras ao final do dia".
If colloquial or more informal translations are desired:
- "Empilhar as cadeiras não faz cair a mão" (roughly "you won't lose your hands if you take the time to stack the chairs")
- "ô mossss, empilhascadêra fazenofavô?" (A very informal transcription from "Mineiro" (people from the state of Minas Gerais) accent for "Hey girl/boy, [can you] stack the chairs, doing [everyone] a favor [please]?"
Muito obrigado.
I really like your informal suggestions, having some cultural context is awesome!
So I went with "ô mossss, empilhascadêra fazenofavô?" and my friend told me the Brazilian students in her class "lit up!" They were so happy that they wrote a response: "Pó dexa, cumpadi" and apparently recorded a video together talking about how they came across their dialect in an English class at a little school in Australia. Thank you for making a bunch of people smile this morning!
@shads@lemy.lol @asklemmy@lemmy.ml
LOL! It's a funny thing from us Brazilians: whenever we see/hear mentions of either Brazil and/or unique national/regional Brazilian aspects, we tend to get this ecstatic feeling of "Brazil mentioned". Glad you people enjoyed it! 😄
As an Australian, we are exactly the same.
The next language I am going to put up is a lot more obscure, Tokelauan, apparently there are only approximately 4000 speakers. There are certainly no students from Tokelau in the class, but I know my friend will be excited by such a rare language being used, hope that flows through to her students as well. Thanks again, can't express how much your help is appreciated.
Cuir na cathaoireacha i gceann a chéile ar críoch an lá, le do thoil
(Irish)
Go raibh maith agat
(I hope that's even a little correct)
I love it, my family is Scottish so if I were any sort of descendant I would know Scots Gaelic and I believe that sentence would look fairly familiar. Alas I am too slack to have learnt anything other than English.
You rock!
Hungarian: "A nap végén kérlek pakoljátok egymásra a székeket." (Rough translation back to English: "At the end of the day, I ask you (informal) to stack the chairs on top of each other").
Same thing, but more formal: "A nap végén kérjük pakolják egymásra a székeket." (~English: "At the end of the day, we ask you (formatl) to stack the chairs on top of each other").
In an even more formal / authoritative way: "A nap végén kéretik a székeket egymásra pakolni." (back to English: "At the end of the day, chairs shall be stacked on top of each other")
Köszönöm
It's almost a suggestion more than a direct request so the first one sounds like what I will use. I really appreciate the context.
Bojlereladó!!
Tack
I hope that's correct.
"Vänligen stapla stolarna mot slutet av dagen" sounds more proper, and a bit less rude ☺️
Tack
(That is "Thank you" right?)
I like being less rude. 😀
Yes, that's correct!
Snälla would not be used like that, unless it's more of a desperate plea and not a polite request. You could either move it to the start or replace it with tack or even do both. Probably would also be better to use på or vid insted of i. Stolar should also be stolarna as you are talking about a specific set of chairs(the ones in the classroom) not just any chair anywhere. So in conclusion: "Snälla stapla stolarna vid slutet av dagen, tack"
Tack så mycket! Jag har borttagen min kommentar, du är mycket bättre med svenska än mig ;)
Vennligst stable stolene når dagen er over. 🇳🇴
Takk
Do you think I can read anything into the demographics of Lemmy that I have all the major Scandinavian countries represented so early?
I really appreciate you helping out with this. You rock!