Straight people, would you date a non-binary person?
2mon 10d ago by lemmy.world/u/JayJLeas in asklemmy
Why or why not?
If so, would it depend on how they present or their assigned gender at birtb or something else?
(Edit: fixed AGAB to confuse less people. Sorry people.)
Yeah, if we were into each other. How they present and their AGAB matching my own preferences would be a factor.
But at the end of the day, my "straightness" is just a convenient label. If someone gets voted in by the Tribunal (Heart, Mind, and Cock), all labels are ultimately superfluous.
Blessed are we who serve Hemico.
Well, that shorthand just made it into the lexicon
Can we make it a sect of Pastafarianism, or would that get too weird too fast, with the appendages and all? đ¤ˇđ˝ââď¸ Regardless, this notion's got rhythm and it yearns to be shared with the world. đ¤đź
HeMiCo, in all things. This is the way.
Heart, mind and cock. Beautiful.
Depends if they have a pussy. In general most non-binary people I've met haven't been particularly androgynous. Which is one of the reasons they confuse me.
But yeah if they've got the body type I enjoy and a good personality then sure. No way I could make a universal statement though.
Yep. There's a general confusion between gender identity and gender expression, that's why you "expect" non-binary to look androgynous. But indeed, a nonbinary can have a cisman-passing or a ciswoman-passing. I am non-binary and I "look like a man" and it causes me to be insulted or mocked when I go out with makeup or wearing a skirt.
But yeah basically all you need to understand is that gender identity does not have to match a gender expression.
Ok apparently I'm more ignorant than I thought lol thanks for explaining.
No. I am very much a CIS only kind of guy. Now would I abuse them or be mean? No. But sexual attraction is all about preferences. As a black guy here, will I be offended because some women do not want to date a black man? No. Their preference. Same here.
Does the reason why they don't want to date a black man matters?
Yes and no.
How so? Could you give some examples of reasons that would and reasons that wouldn't matter? I'm not sure what these would be, but something tells me that we might find the reason for someone's preference against NB might be similarly important as someone's preference to not date a black man đ¤
Matters: they won't date black people because they think black people aren't people.
Doesn't matter: they're just not sexually attracted to black people.
Like, I'm not interested in Hispanic women. Not because I have an issue with Hispanic people, but because the physical features common to the ethnicity don't do it for me.
Probably not, because I'm generally not attracted to biological males as they usually don't have the physical attributes I find attractive. Sure, feminine attributes can be achieved through surgery, drugs and makeup, but I'd prefer a natural woman and since there is that choice, that's what I'd prefer.
Before you get upset, know that this is my honest opinion. I'll respect you however you identify and will happily hang out with anyone. And I'm sure i'd find some non-binary folk physically attractive, but as I have a choice and I'm a cis hetro then that's my answer.
no idea why someone would get upset about that, but clearly someone already did. you don't have to be attracted to everyone, preferences are allowed. if you were asexual, would everyone get mad?
because people are fragile egotistical jerks who think nobody else has the right to not be attracted to them.
I've been on many dates where the woman wasn't into me, and then get upset/offended I wasn't into her, because HOW COULD I NOT BE INTO HER SHE IS SO AMAZING. THERE MUST BE SOMETHING WRONG WITH ME IF I AM NOT SUPER INTO HER. It's sadly common.
My favorite is a few people en who dumped me and I wasn't really that into them, so NBD. But they broke out into tears and crying and screaming because they wanted me to be upset and it was 'rude' and 'offensive' to them that I wasn't desperately crying and and I just that I just let them go 'so easily'.
A lot of people are incredibly selfish and messed up in the head.
broke out into tears and crying and screaming because they wanted me to be upset
Luckily for me, this was how my first LTR ended. I was completely floored by their 180, but I noped out instead of taking the bait, and that experience saved my ass more than a few times in the years that followed.
It's some real bullshit behavior, but I feel like I might've lucked out learning that lesson so early. Pretty telling that so many haven't yet grown past that early developmental stage, and some never do. đ¤đź
No thanks, I only date my wife.
Same, I only date her too
Good luck!
That sounds like it would only work if the straight person can easily interpret the non-binary person as "basically like a cis man/woman just with different pronouns", and the non-binary person either has the same set of genitals that you'd expect based on their appearance, or the straight person just doesn't care about unexpected genitals, which seems rare.
But I'm bi, so I wouldn't know.
âUnexpected genitalsâ sounds like you find them between their shoulder blades
Lol, the whole 'non-binary' thing is so weird to me, since I like the lads and the lassies. As long as they tick the attractive boxes, like confident, smart, and being into me, it's like getting a christmas morning present every time I wake up next to them.
It's not well-defined or anything. It's basically a wastebin kind of classification, as in 'oh I'm not this or that, so i guess I'm non-binary'.
It also acts as a holding space for people who haven't figured our who they want to be.
in my interactions iwth non-binary people, there are a lot of them who seem to be into that classification of themselves as some sort of 'fighting the patriarchy' or 'refusing to be labeled' type of teenage rebellion attitude stuff. also a lot of poly, alt, kink, etc lifestyle folks, at least on my dating apps.
I know plenty of gay women who are into gock, so why don't straight men like gock?
Toxic masculinity, heteronormativity etc.
That makes sense, masculinity is the main thing straight men have that gay women don't. And if it's stopping them from enjoying themselves, it sounds toxic.
I hope you both have fun pegging him organic style
Gock?
Gock is girl cock
Ah, thanks
Straight guy here. As long as they have the body parts I'm interested in and plan on keeping them, I don't care what gender they align with.
Are you really interested in body parts only? Like (I suppose you're a straight man), a man with a beard and muscles but with a vagina would turn you on?
They wouldn't really be non-binary if they've undergone gender affirming care.
Point of order - non-binary people sometimes medically transition. We might not choose all the options to swap to a full binary presentation but target things which cause us duress.
Non-binary is under the trans umbrella though not every Non-binary person identifies as trans. There are political enbies or people who see their ambivalence towards gender and sex characteristics entirely as being an expression of a Non-binary experience while others experience the same euphoria/dysphoria to their natal sex characteristics that binary trans people do but desire more of an absence of all sex characteristics or a mix of male and female phenotypic traits.
Your statement in effect only describes a fraction of Non-binary people.
They could be. Transitioning doesnt stop them from choosing to identify with a non-binary gender.
Are you thinking of intersex? Even in that scenario, I don't believe that statement applies.
Then no, I wouldn't be with them if they've transitioned. That's part of the "keeping the parts I'm attracted to".
Depends more on their biological sex, not what they identify as.
In all honesty I don't think I could handle it and I'd become toxic in some way eventually just because I probably couldn't ever understand my partner to a level where I could consider them my partner.
... If that makes any damn sense
I was never interested in dating anyone queer while I was looking. it's not the kind of relationship I'm looking for. I more want a regular guy who wants to be the dad and who will likewise let me be the mom. new boyfriend is like that and we're happily getting to know each other.
I donât know why it would matter? If Iâm attracted to them and theyâre nice to me thereâs no reason not to
I'm married to a non binary person.
How many times?
/s
I've gone on dates with non-binary people, but usually they have off-putting personalities and beliefs or were quite rude and weird.
I get matches from them on dating apps too, but again, usually they are very hostile/angry or have other off-putting life-style stuff, like being poly, so I just don't bother engaging.
I'd have no issue being in a relationship with a person, if they didn't have the baggage or weird off-putting beliefs that seem to come with being non-binary. Especially the 'edgelord' personality nonsense that seems to be really common among queer/non-binary people. I have met queer folks who weren't like that, but only in a non-romantic context, in romantic context the ones i attract are very much the teenage edgelords.
I wonder how much of that rudeness/hostility is because they quickly clocked you as a very judgemental person and were annoyed at wasting their time going on said date?
Queer people have to deal with a lot of entitled, judgemental people (particularly those willing to date cishet men). You can only encounter so many people who think themselves better than you or who exhibit traits like toxic masculinity or prejudicial beliefs before becoming jaded.
It's not necessarily you, it's all the shitty people that came before you that set the bar so low that it's underground. You need to show you're at least better than that abysmally low standard before someone's likely to open up to you.
Yeah, I do notice a lot of people with shitty attitudes and toxic personalities call me judgemental.
And I also notice people who don't have those personalities, like me.
I wonder why that is? I can't think of any reason... many it's like when the tankies on lemmy tell me i'm an ignorant and brainwashed by capitalism if i don't think China is a utopian state?
Piefed user moment
Probably not, just because I donât think I can really relate to that identity. If Iâm being honest, I just donât really understand it. It seems more like a cultural phenomenon to me than a real identity that is based on some biological reality, even if just in the brain. Iâm not saying I donât think a brain biology couldnât produce something like that, but it seems much more likely to be the product of cultural factors than that to me.
Addendum: Plus, I honestly find it hard to use gender neutral or gender-sex unaligned pronouns if the person still looks like their biological sex. I donât think Iâd want to deal with using gender neutral pronouns with a partner that looks female, and being straight, I probably wouldn't be attracted to an androgynous or male-looking person.
though have you considered that hiding such identity has been product of cultural factors?
Oh, sure. But if that was the case, I would expect to see evidence of it cropping up throughout history, like we see with homosexuality and transsexuality. Maybe there is evidence and Iâm just ignorant, but it hasnât been pointed out to me if thatâs the case.
It might also be, that the multitude of different sexualities is result of people being able to think about that stuff without worrying constantly they will be hunted down for it. Even though things are still not exactly optimal, society has become safe enough for more complex behaviour to emerge. So on second thought, maybe its indeed product of cultural factors đ¤
Personally, i have always thought i'm 100% straight, but after discussing about things with a friend and after starting to feel I shed last of the things suppressing me, I think i might be only 90% +-9% straight. I think if we could completely remove all suppression of thought, every human would deviate at least a little from binaric gender system. I also think it would improve mental health a lot too and it would lessen the amount of people who want to hurt other people for being different. Probably everyone who preaches how homosexuality is a sin is secretly non-straight, but they just suppress it so badly it drives them to insanity of hurting others.
Thatâs a nice line of thinking but it ignores the fact that it adds layers of complexity to life that arenât necessarily beneficial. What has this 100% to 90-99% straight identification really added to your life vs. how much cognitive power itâs cost you to achieve it?
This is what I meant about us not having observed gender-neutral identification appearing throughout history. Sure, it may be a nuanced idea to gender identity, but whatâs it really worth? If it was worth much, I would think weâd see examples of it poke through the prejudices of society throughout history. I just donât see that.
Likewise, if it was really biologically driven, I would think it couldnât be fully suppressed by societal norms, just like homosexuality and transsexuality. The fact that it doesnât seem to be so strong a trait leaves me thinking itâs a cultural phenomenon. That doesnât make it invalid or useless, but it certainly does make it less important than traits that are indelible enough to overcome cultural factors.
Honestly, Iâm really not convinced itâs just a cultural fad, which may reflect a gradient on the gender spectrum, but is more like the tapers of the two spikes that represent male/female identification, rather than some vast valley of gender-in-betweenism that deserves broad acknowledgement.
it means i might be open to relationship with same gender as myself or other experiences. It also means i can better relate to other people in similar position. But how can you evaluate what is necessarily beneficial to others or how much bother things have caused for them?
But ultimately, what does it even matter what people think about their gender? its their own business. It still falls down to people either liking eachother or not. Only thing added is expectation of respecting what other person thinks about themselves, which also serves as a filter for people one wouldnt want to associate with anyway.
Within reason, yes. Not looking for anything complicated.
Once one accepts that non-binary (NB?) people have the same humanity as any other person, a potential partner's AGAB matters less. That's my experience, anyway.
I'm demisexual, attracted to stereotypically feminine or androgynous bodies, and I've seen a number of very cute, penis-bearing women. If I had an emotional connection with a NB person or transwoman with the aforementioned body type, I think itâd be fun and exciting to see if we click romantically/sexually.
To be fair, I don't think I would date someone whose whole personality is just their gender...
Aside from that - depends who they are, how they behave etc.
If we got along and I found them attractive, sure.
Are they going to put up with me playing copious amounts of city building games, my weekly Dungeons & Dragons game, and never shutting up about Aztec history?
I'm not into penis, personally. That caveat outta the way: I've had nothing but good to downright incredible relationships with non-binary people. Stable? fuck no (neither was I at the time) but incredible. 10/10 would try again. With someone less crazy than I am next time.
As a straight man I am attracted to women. I have seen plenty AFAB enbys who are attractive. I have also seen plenty of AMAB trans women who are attractive. I have seen plenty of AFAB women who are attractive.
I once heard that sexual attraction is just a vibe and I really like that description. So if they hit my vibe I am in.
I mean, if I'm attracted to them and was looking for someone, I might be willing to shoot my shot.
Otherwise, since I'm not looking for a partner, no. Doesn't matter who they are or what their gender or sex is.
Date: sure, why not. I don't want to die curious. But I'm really not into guys so if you come across as one I'll pass, which makes it seem like I'd be wasting both of ours time by not going for a woman to begin with.
I am not dating a man, because I am not gay.
A "trans man" is still a man.
Do with that whatever you will.
Sometimes the chuds are so dense they say based things like this on accident and it is very funny to me.
I had an on-again-off-again thing with an AFAB person who identified as non-binary for the latter part of that time. Still had a vagina, still enjoyed PIV, still had a body I found attractive, so whatever. Only real difficulty was cutting gendered language out of dirty talk, especially with them being a sub.
Admittedly, I'm kind of a gender-abolitionist anyway. Biological sex I get, I like putting my penis in a vagina. Body-type aesthetic preferences I get, but those are pretty individual in the first place: some people like tits, some like ass, some like skinny, some like thick, some like short, some like tall; there are plenty of women I don't find attractive but others do, and vice versa. But outside that, gender just seems socially regressive. So long as I am sexually attracted to you and you like having sex roughly the same way I do, the rest is just personality.
I'm sincerely not sure how social gender would affect my relationship.
I find this is a weird question. Everyone is going to be different. If the person is straight, then obviously they're going to be more attracted to someone who presents on the feminine side. It's all personal preference though.
As a straight man, I prefer my women to be more towards the tomboy side of things usually. I like really feminine looking women too, but I find the ones I'm most attracted towards look feminine but present more towards the masculine side.
Obviously all these terms are made up though. I would say anyone who isn't a bigot would date a non-binary person if they match what they want. Genitals are obviously part of this, but presentation is made up. Your presentation just has to be something they like. If they like it then tbey like it. It shouldn't be more complex than that. Someone being non-binary has nothing to do with that.
All this said, personality is obviously important. Someone can be attracted to you and not like your personality. I guess someone could not like the personality of people who are non-binary?
What is that last bit even supposed to mean...? Non binary people have just as many different and nuanced personalities as any other demographic. Thats like saying someone is fine for saying "i dont like the personality of people who are [black, men, tall, blonde, etc]"
Like preference is fine but saying its the personality of an entire demographic is wild
The last bit was there to say there's no reason for this to be a question, except for people who hold that opinion. I agree, it doesn't really make sense. I would mostly group them in with the bigots.
I wouldn't rule it out. Would really depend on the person.
I used to have a lot of exposure to different lifestyles due to being into BDSM and heavily involved in a trans-friendly group. One of my best friends fully transitioned with I think gave me a lot of insight.
I want to say first that I fully support the rights of all people to live their truth as they see it. I respect and value people regardless of what they have in their pants or who they choose to share that with.
I'm attracted to femme features and were I to date someone they would have to pass pretty well. I'm not viscerally disgusted by a penis, and I guess I'd be willing to experiment, but in the abstract I'm not attracted to them, I don't get pleasure from anal play, and I don't really like putting my dick in butts. Not totally opposed but it's rare I'm in the mood for that â I have to be feeling very "top-y."
So just don't know that there is a lot of dating potential there. However I could use more friends and if someone wanted to hang out and talk nerdy shit over drinks in a romantic setting and call it a date, I'm in.
I will add that I'm married and while we are essentially monogamous, we aren't strictly so and hypothetically if the right person came along that fit as a play partner or throuple, I wouldn't care about gender or gender expression at all. As long as there is someone involved in an encounter who makes my junk tingle, it's all good.
I like to think that i don't really care what labels are in place as long as we're compatible in the myriad of relevant departments.
However, my thought remains largely untested*
*Technically i have briefly dated a person who fluctuated between woman and NB, but idk if i count it for reasons that are my own.
Iâm aromantic so perhaps my view of âdatingâ doesnât fit. And, before I say anything else I should preface that the sexual preferences of a random internet stranger (me) should not be taken as indicative of universal self worth or appeal. You are valid regardless of the opinions/proclivities of others, especially random internet strangers like me lol
Anyway, I am kind of on the ace spectrum. Iâve only really been with cis women and with them Iâm just indifferent to sex. I thought it would be the same for men despite not feeling any attraction whatsoever towards them, so I decided to experiment.
Turns out I was quite wrong and I am actually viscerally repulsed by both men and male genitalia. I canât just power through the grossness like I can with others.
So, I would be quite hesitant to date a nonbinary person with male genitals. My gay friends were very chill with my reaction in the experiments lol, but I get the feeling that if I did end up having a reflexive negative response to a nonbinary person, it would probably increase any dysphoria they feel and I donât want to to do that to anyone.
I also dont feel attracted to anyone with facial hair (regardless of âbiological sexâ) so that might cut down on the nonbinary population I would have a desire to date too.
The main point Id like to make here is that gender in general stupid for many reasons including, in my opinion, trying to define attraction. I donât care what pronouns someone uses or if how they dress aligns with a specific gender or what social norms they adhere to specific to genders. What is most important to attraction is, specifically, attraction.
Does this person have the seemingly random traits my brain likes and not the ones it dislikes? Great. Maybe for some people those attractive or repulsive attributes fall along gender lines perfectly but I seriously doubt thatâs the case for anyone especially since gender lines are more gradients than lines in the first place.
I would probably be fine dating a nonbinary person who has the traits which I like (physical and non-physical btw, like idc if someoneâs hot; if theyâre rude or cruel to others, they can gtfo) and not traits I dislike but thatâs kind of as specific as I can get and none of my attraction/repulsion stems directly from gender.
Anyway, I again would like to tell anyone reading this that if someone (including me) doesnât find you attractive, it should have no bearing on how you see yourself or your perceived self worth. Tell yourself âthey donât know what theyâre missingâ and keep on being you because youâre awesome and theyâre just some idiot whose opinion shouldnât matter to you anyway. (Plus there is plenty more to life than sex, I mean who cares about sexual attraction when there is cool physics and mathematics to learn right?)
If one would, you would assume that makes them pansexual instead of straight. no?
I remember listening to an audiobook about Bisexuality some time ago that used a unique but very logical set of definitions. Those were:
- Straight: attracted to gender(s) that are not the same as yours
- Gay: attracted to gender(s) that are the same as yours
- Bi: attracted to gender(s) that are yours as well as gender(s) that are not yours
- Pan: Attraction is independent of gender
So someone who isn't Nonbinary being attracted to someone who is NB could still count as Straight by that definition. You could also count an Enby as straight if they're attracted to both male and female presenting people, but not other Enbies.
But honestly, it's just a fun framework and people should be able to describe themselves however they like. The semantics of their category doesn't really matter after all.
So what you are saying is that bi and pan is the same thing? A person attracted to someone else not based on gender.
No, I'd say there's a difference. It's like someone who likes all colors vs. someone who's colorblind.
Technically bisexual is an umbrella term that encompasses pan, omni, etc. Omnisexual implies gender- or sex-based preferences, whereas pansexual implies having no such preferences
I see, thank you for the breakdown. I guess this means I don't get to steal gay valor for enjoying them/they pussy
Honestly you kinda gotta remind me what non binary means. Does it mean they have no preference in sexual partner or that they don't view themselves as either of the sexes or something else?
Nonbinary is how they view their own gender. They don't really see themselves as male or female, or they can identify with elements of both, and anything in between.
Sexual preference in a partner is where you would use the terms hetero, gay, bi, poly, ace.....
Like I identify as female. I was assigned female at birth. But I am by no means a girly girl. I am more comfortable hanging out with fellas. I do like dresses, sometimes. I do like heels, sometimes. I don't like makeup. I do like jewelry. Most often you will find me barefoot. I like smutty books, and football, and crochet, and power tools, and flowers, and using my truck for truck things like hauling, towing, and pulling my husband's cute little convertible out of a ditch.
My old college roomie is nonbinary. They kind of have the same dressing and hobby and entertainment preferences as me. We are really compatible. I've often thought if I wasn't with my husband, I could see myself with them. But they made the call that they are more in the middle, and don't identify female, yet not quite male either. Their term (it may be a loaded term for some folks) for themselves is something other, with 'nonbinary' being the closest they can come with today's terminology to describe it. Yet they do have a preference in sexual partner, they are not bi or poly, maybe a little ace.
Tl;dr nonbinary is how some folks see themselves and how they feel in their own skin, not what genitals they prefer on a sexual partner.
I mean im not sure. My wife is a woman and has no desire to be with woman but when young was kinda a tom boy and does not go for a lot of girly things but will sorta girly it up for a purpose. she is a lot like a guy who if they have to will wear the full suit or tux. Dresses and makeup and fashion and such is like that for her. She can do it and even knows how to do it well but does not want to do it day to day. Same with all sorts of other things. I hate cars but she loves them so she drives if we are together. She is far more sexually agressive than I mostly because by nature im kinda an introvert and she kinda likes that. Like the challenge. Its hard to say with like fixing and maintenance stuff. Im a bit more techy and have this thing with shapes and organization but she is more an artist and is just much better than I when it comes to fixing things. Its like I am more likely to be able to do an ugly fix or workaround but she is much more likely to do something where you you had someone else check it out they would be impressed. Anyway we are older and for us there is not real difference between gender and sex. Thats distinction was just no there. When someone said man they meant male and when someone said women they meant female. Medical science could do some stuff but its such a small percentage its not on anyones radar. So I don't think of her as non binary and she does not think of me as nonbinary. Shes a woman and im a man but we often joke on how im very yin male and she is a very yang women.
And that's totally ok for both of you to feel that way. It ultimately depends on the chemistry going on in one's brain. Just because your wife and I are tomboys doesn't mean we view ourselves as nonbinary, but for my roomie who was also not a girly girl yet also not a tomboy, they decided that nonbinary more accurately described how they thought about themselves. I could have a tomboy identical twin and they could feel like they were more nonbinary or transgendered than I do. Or they could feel like a girl (like me) and be more attracted to girls than I am. It's up to the individual to determine what seems most right for them.
My hubby isn't a "manly man" in the sense that he doesn't religiously follow sports or go hunting or tinker in the garage, but he very much identifies as male, and his coworkers often call him the 'alpha' (which I hesitated to mention because we both feel the alpha/beta categorizing culture is pretty cringey, but I went ahead and brought it up to illustrate that others see him as quite assertive). He just has an authority rebelliousness and speaks up for the group and calls people/mgmt on their bullshit.
If 2 people are really alike in terms of hobbies and style and personality, they could still differ in how they perceive their gender. And to make things even more complicated, how one perceives their gender may not match up with the sexual equipment they have. That is a factor in how many trans people experience dysphoria. What they see in the mirror doesn't match up with how they feel. Imagine if you got Freaky Fridayed into someone else's body unexpectedly, how you would react to looking in a mirror. That can be how they feel about it every time they look in a mirror.
I will say that I'm proud of you for asking questions and being curious. That's how we learn. I myself went through the "isn't gender and sex the same thing??" And once I grasped how it's not how society labels a person but how that person determines this for themselves, same as how I determine for myself that just because I don't like makeup doesn't mean I'm trans, that it kind of clicked that how people present themselves and feel about themselves is a very personal journey, and that two similar people can come to two very different conclusions, both of which are correct. And that was a horribly long run-on sentence, but thank you for sticking with me to the end. đâď¸
Nobody should be apologizing to me for run on sentences. People compain about the federation being just like reddit but its exactly these type of genuine type exchanges that make it great. Thanks.
You can, kind of broadly for ease of understanding, categorize non binary into a few different types.
-
Static identities vs fluid
-
Absence of gender vs mix of gender
-
Trans identifying and cis or ar least non-trans identifying
-
Political or aesthetic versus psychological need
To explain absence and mix are basically what it says on the tin. For some people they want freedom from any cultural or physical gender aspects to the best that can be reasonably achieved or they desire a grab bag from both male and female cultural or physical phenotypes. This doesn't always nessisarily look like or have perfect androgyny as a goal.
Static identities do not change over time. Often these folk either experience a desire for an absence of sex characteristics or see themselves as a simultaneous mix male or female or as a specific other category.
Fluid identities change over time. This could be daily, weekly, monthly or yearly. A fluid person might alternate only between agender (ie no gender) and a binary gender or experience the full spectrum of male to female. Their needs change over time.
Political and Psychological are kind of another slider. For some Non-Binary represents a range of coping mechanisms to deal with gender euphoria or dysphoria. It can be a philosophy that is used to seek a sort of individual path, accepting a middle place ir an extremely nuanced situation where one's birth gender is a problem... But the solution isn't leaping to the full other side of rhe spectrum. For others Non-Binary can be a purely cultural third category. Gender abolitionists exist who find the repressive gender expectations they were subjected to did them harm. They might resent cultural gender rather than having any particular strong feelings about their bodies. Genderfuck or Genderpunk are outgrowths of movements that blend or subvert people's cultural expectations. The establishment of pink and blue boxes is a prison and they want nothing more than to burn it all down.
Transness or "Non-trans Non-Binary" extends from this division. Non-Binary identities fall under the Trans umbrella in the LGBTQIA+ but not every Non-Binary person is comfortable claiming transness as a label. Sometimes it feels to some enbies like they are claiming stolen valor or that they don't intend to physically transition so it doesn't apply (though it's worth mentioning that binary trans people also don't require an intent to physically transition as a gatekeeping item that prevents one from being trans ) others are functionally more cis identifying because their issue is cultural and not physical.
It's a very big tent of different people.
yeah its all kind of silly to my wife and I. I mean we sound non binary by the one persons thing of it but like gender roles have pretty much been thrown off after the hippie era in modern societies. I feel like making all these little boxes is like tacit approval of gender roles in general. Like it feels like a step backwards. Not liking guns or cars does not make a dude less of a man and not liking dresses or dolls does not make some gal less of a woman. They can be what they want. I feel like its all a kind of labeling.
Not... Really? That's a very culture and expression forward veiw of gender which as more questions get asked widely is seen as a very cis centric veiw of gender.
Like we haven't really nailed everything down and a lot of Non-Binary people don't like this take because a lot of them find it invalidating but the trans and cis aspect of gender are very different. The more we inquest into how the average cis person experiences gender the more we find the majority of cis people are all kind of "Non-Binary" they don't feel implicitly like their role holds any super deep meaning and feel like if their body flipped to the opposite sex then that isn't horrifying. The idea that cis people have a built in gender compass that aligns with a single set of sex characteristics is taking a trans lens and assuming that's how it works for everyone whereas if a big room full of cis people actually talk to each other about whether they have any kind of innate feeling of being male or female aligned you start realizing that premise of actually having any massive non-cultural preference one way or the other just isn't the norm. Cis people just don't have to interrogate their gender the way trans people do.
Basically it's like the brain's most common configuration is it's wired to accept whatever outcome of puberty and be flexible enough to adapt.
The trans aspect of gender (and a minority of cis people) is entirely different. We react to our sex characteristics intrinsically outside our control not as having neutral value but as having either negative or positive value. We are internally reinforced to react either with rewards like joy when our bodies are reflected back to us as matching our pre-settings oe punishes with stress, jealousy and depression when sex doesn't align. Like a body expectation switch got stuck in one position and anything other is abhorrent.
For trans folk gender expression and cultural reinforcement is just a mirror that causes other people to reflect our bodies back at us. Gender expression becomes a tool like technology to communicate needs. Indeed a lot of trans people have issues with having to overperform gender not because they want to participate in the culture but because we are steering people to avoid seeing our bodies, scanning and verbally reporting back to us their physical assessment of our sex... that hurts us and so we have to perform the most readable cultural expressions of gender to get strangers to understand at a glance how to help avoid our poisons and to treat us in ways that hit the built-in reward trigger.
Yeah I think there is just an understanding thing that is harder. I can barely parse this but I see a lot about ones body but then there is this general modern take that gender and sex are different that just was not the case for folk like me growing up. But if they are different and its about ones body then its about sex no? Is it the physical being or the social norms? If its the physical being then what does it mean as a thought experiment if someone was in the same condition with the technolog of a thousand years ago but the advanced socially beyoned today. Is it a medical thing that needs treatment or is a something one can come to terms with without altering themselves? Is it a medical condition or a personal choice. Granted these alternatives are not as easy as they appear. The idea of nature vs nuture is a debate as old as time.
Well I believe we are living at a point where we have not really figured things out. We have pieces. Gender theory is being treated as a monolith of ideas that is dominated by a cis veiw of gender as genre.
This is incompatible with trans needs because trans people's primary focus is physicality and are using the cis language of gender as technology to do something entirely different to change the way other people interact with their own physical nature.
So gender is bullshit made up by humans but to trans people its useful and nessisary bullshit
See I don't feel gender is bs but I think I may get what you mean. To me gender is just another term for anotomical sex or such and sorta bridges to nicety titles like mr or mrs. I assume you mean the idea of women being like x and men being like y which is really just stereotypes. I mean I don't think sterotypes exist for no reason. My peoples are known for drinking and if you go to a wedding or funeral for my family there will be nothing to make that stereotype less valid. But I don't drink much at all. So little it is going to be at a minimum months apart and more often than not years apart. Likely have one within a decade. My wife and I buy something and have it years later. Its kinda funny when the doc asks if I drink because its like yeah but by most peoples standards no. Then still many cultures are known for drinking and those that are not still drink a lot on all sorts of occasions.
From a philosophy standpoint - it is way more complicated than that.
Gender is sort of like a book genre. People made it up. It groups a bunch of ideas around physical sex that don't really have anything to do with it directly. It's sort of like stereotypes but it's also an amalgamation of history and how people express. You can have a culture where gender has hard rules or soft ones. You can have a gender expectation what a culture rewards people of a specific sex for doing or punishes them for not doing. Gender expression where there is a way of culturally displaying gender to others based on a cultural idea of what those sexes represent and how people think they differ : clothes, the way you act and so on.
The thing is these things are all not set in stone. They are all just cultural baggage.
Sex is just the thing gender chooses as it's centerpoint of creating all this fiction.
I just never though of it like this. When I talked with people saying male/female or man/women or dude/gal was kinda all the same. Sorta just depended on setting from clinical to casual. All the cultural things were sorta stuff just lopped on top. Its meaning kinda dependent on the individuals with some folks seeing them as some sort of law of nature and others as tendencies. I find the higher denisity the place one lives the less one is likely to go the law of nature route.
Yeah "gender" is actually a theory of deconstructing the idea of culture - all the stuff lopped on top of sex and the baggage of all the world's ideas of what it means to be male and female from the pseudoscientific aspects of outmoded or outdated disproven science to the effect of religion to the behaviours mimicked and taught between generations.
Gender is cultural.
Yet "sex" is also on a spectrum.
What modern discourse gets rather fantastically wrong to my mind is for trans people it is about sex characteristics. A trans woman doesn't just want to be treated as a woman she wants to be a woman. For a lot this means the whole shebang from periods to childbirth. That's not gender, those are sex characteristics. Her issue is she can't access those aspects yet or, like other women, maybe she doesn't want nessisarily everything. She's also set outside the culture of womanhood, segregated from other women and denied community of her people socially - that IS gender.
Hard to say. I'm into lady bits and not man bits, this is from experience. I have no issue finding a man attractive physically or even emotionally but sexually it's a meh. Over my life I've had friends and acquaintances and colleagues that are of any gender and orientation, I don't really care much in other relationships. I've dated bisexual and tomboys and I like confident women and I really like confident intelligent women despite myself being mid on smarts or maybe that's why.
It probably comes down to some basic chemistry and if they are interesting people. If they have lady bits and "just are" NB, it probably doesn't matter much. If it is their entire personality that they are NB, then I probably just don't get romantically or sexually interested in the first place.
Another form of this question is for married people, of if their spouse's genitals one day just flipped inside-out or outside-in, would that be enough to end your relationship?
I love my partner so, so much, as she basically saved my life. And if she woke up tomorrow sporting a turgid member, I wouldn't love her any less. In fact, quite far from a deal breaker. Even if she, out of nowhere, wanted bottom surgery, I would support her 100%. But, with that, presenting as the gender she does is what makes me attracted to her. My brain stem loves them good lady shapes, and the rest of my brain loves this individual lady in particular.
It's a package deal, but of she had a package, that's not part of the math for the deal.
I'm bi. My wife suddenly growing a cock would be a surprise, to be sure, but a welcome one.
This is a question that's been brought up irl recently (alongside whether I would date a trans woman) and the honest answer is I simply don't know. I'd have to be presented with someone non-binary who I'm attracted to (and just as importantly, vice versa) to really form an opinion.
I lean towards probably not, but there's been two occasions I've been surprised at my impression of a non-AGAB, feminine presenting person. But two people vs. many more cis-women, so idk.
It is a pretty striking "well, this is new" experience when you're not expecting it though. And it did get a warranty sold, that much I'll admit.
I'm gynesexual but like tomboys, so yes.
I would but only if there's no drama (their personality). Dont know what AGAB is but as long as we're both focused on building our future together, sounds golden mate
AGAB = assigned gender at birth
Assigned Gender At Birth
I had to look it up too.
Iâd be surprised if a straight dude would date a non-binary person with a dick. Less surprised but similarly with straight women and vaginas.
Yes. If they look feminine and their AGAB is female and I find them attractive and enjoyable to be around. Relevant to your question - if they check the first two boxes, then while intellectually I can appreciate that they see themselves as not fitting into the traditional feminine category, my dick will disregard this and say "THAT LADY. WANT FUCK." And if this person wants to use they/them pronouns and checks all my other boxes, then their nonbinary status is essentially irrelivant to my descision making process.
Yes. I do have a thing for vaginas though, so thatâs probably gonna be pretty important.
Well of course, its kind of nobrainer? If you like someone and want to be with them and they like you and want to be with you, that is that.
Yeah, I'm not sure why some have such a hard time understanding this. It's like they want it to be more complicated than it is, and always searching for explanations. Sometimes there will be no explanation for the way you'll feel. The sooner you realize that, the better.
Probably not. It would depend on their biological sex but really, why deal with that when it's so easy to avoid?
Iâm sexually attracted exclusively to feminine presenting people and repulsed by masculine presenting people. I donât really care about whatâs between legs but I am much more experience with vaginas. But Iâm a hoe and donât really know what to call my sexuality
"Human"
Yeah of course, if they looked attractive to me and liked me back.
(answering as though I were single of course)
I would date them if I found them attractive (which implies more femme than not) and if they have a vagina, regardless of whether they always have.
I'll date anything that's not male. except turtles. turtles suck.
No, because I'm not dating at all.
Likely not, though there are always exceptions.
Friends for sure. The big difference to me, between dating and being friends, is the level of physical intimacy and sexual attraction between the people in the relationship -- and ideally, you want that to be a strong enough bond that you can rely on each other for those needs almost exclusively. I can't realistically picture such a bond with a non binary person, similar to how I don't think such a bond can be as exclusive/strong with someone who is 'gender fluid' (as it'd feel like I'd never live up to the expectations of a partner that wanted to physically/materially play around with both men and women, seeing as I'm just one of the two). I also find myself more attracted to certain generally more feminine characteristics, which would likely not work out well if the other person is non-binary -- I wouldn't want someone I cared about, changing/masking who they are, just for my benefit, so I wouldn't want to put them into that sort of dilemma by pursuing a relationship.
There's nothing wrong with being non-binary. There's also nothing wrong with not being attracted to non-binary people.
Then again, my viewpoint has resulted in me being a single middle aged person with no real immediate family, and few close friends (they tend to go 'poof' once they find a wife/husband and start families). So being somewhat mindful of these things, may have negative results in the long run for most cis-folks. May be better to just hook up with anything with a pulse, and try to get some kids/connections by any means, if you don't want to die alone. Throw every relationship at the wall and see what sticks -- any hole's a goal.
This is a messy but interesting question to sort my thoughts on. First, I did date a non-binary person for a couple years and ended things on good terms. Iâm AMAB, theyâre AFAB on testosterone. Iâll admit I felt a little weird as their transition took effect over time with thicker leg hair and a peach fuzz mustache.
Second, Iâve considered myself a sex-positive asexual person since I learned the term, so Iâm not certain I should be answering this. Iâve always been confused when someone is called hot, but I like the mental/emotional intimacy and physical touch of sex. Iâve come to realize recently that Iâd probably be okay being intimate with a woman or feminine partner with a dick, but since I would like to have kids some day it wouldnât really work for a romantic relationship.
Third, that partner has half-jokingly said that you have to be a little gay to date them, so I donât know that any person that would date a non-binary person can call themself 100% straight, which means technically nobody should be answering this question at all :P
Ace enby lesbian here. I generally feel the same way. I'm attracted to femininity, equipment really doesn't factor into how I feel about a woman. Or about femme-presenting people in general. I just think girls are pretty.
I still don't know what that means.
Probably yes, to me it is not really important how they identify.
The only label I'm interested in is if I like a person or not. If they plan to change that person in the future, is possible that in the future I don't like them anymore but that can happen anyway without any planned change.
I still donât know what that means
AGAB = Assigned gender at birth.
I had to do a search to figure that one out. Feels like these abbreviations are popping up all the time and everyone just sort of assumes everyone else knows what they mean.
What ever happened to "this is the way everyone should use abbreviations, first write the whole thing, Assigned Gender At Birth (AGAB), then add the abbreviation in parentheses like so. After that you can use AGAB freely and everyone knows what it means."
Tbh. Am straight, and I wouldn't date them, even if I'd find them attractive. Just because I don't have time and nerves to deal with confusion of something so fundamental.
I wouldn't rule it out. But maybe I'm not fully straight either, even if I only dated women so far.
The only deal breaker I can't see myself getting over is if they had a sex change operation.
Something about that just kills the attraction for me on an instinctual level.
That doesn't mean I think it's wrong to have one (it's not my place to judge that at all) or that I'd respect them any less, I just can't see myself dating someone who had one.
Do you feel similarly about other kinds of major surgery or only involving genitals specifically?
I feel the same way with any cosmetic surgery.
I thought that's what you meant. I've felt that way a few times before, but I'm not sure what words to use to describe or categorize this sentiment đ¤
Maybe it doesn't need categorization.
It's not like people have any control over what they're attracted to.
Maybe, but on a personal level I would like to be able to better explain myself.
I would. Why not. I've always been attracted more to the person than the meatbag they occupy. I've also never thought as myself as straight or bi, I just like what I like and don't think about it too much. I think it was Michael Stipe who said something like he's not bi, he's sexually open to everyone. I think I'm sort of the same.
Yes.
I see two scenarios. One, they catfish me if they can pass for a regular straight man. How I react to this when I find out will depend a lot on their personality and how everything unfolded, but it's very likely I'd be very angry about them lying.
The other scenario is one in which our personalities click really well, so well we would be besties. But the advances would theirs. Again, how I respond to these advances would vary a lot but if we already have that exceptional affinity then it's likely to go well. I think looks would be important here, they don't need to look masculine but they would need to have somewhat conventionally attractive features. I'm boring and limited like that, sorry.
I think I'm too old but my bi kids don't care and the trans (boy now) one has a girlfriend and the mom wouldn't let her stay over UNTIL she found out that the boyfriend was trans. Now she is allowed to stay over. I found that interesting.
Brave new world.
For me, non-binary partner would have to be both a male bodied person and one who enjoyed using their OEM equipment. As I am not bi. But beyond that - if they didn't feel male or female, not sure I would care. It hasn't come up so not sure.
Of course. I like fit folks, if your fit, and look good, kinda doesn't matter what your chosen identity is. I'll be honest, I'm not really into bright colors in hair, but the only real deal breaker is if your unreliable, dishonest or emotionally unavailable
Nothing wrong with that ofc, but are you sure you are straight? Sounds like bi or pan to me idk.
Well I like vaginas and IV only ever dated 1 non Binary Fem in my life, but Im not worried about the label honestly. Call me what you will
As long as their physical anatomy was identical to my gender of choice, yes.
Maybe, idk. Probably if they would lean more to the masculine side.
I should add, that I do consider myself straight, but I would not 100% deny, that I Am maybe bisexual/pansexual.
No, donât think I would. Because it would probably clash with my religion and beliefs.
EDIT: I blocked the guy, that commented on me. So if someone decides to comment on these replies, I wonât be commenting back. Iâm willing to chat but refuse to entertain trolls, baiters and people who want to argue to just stir things up. Not worth the time, energy and effort in all that.
Out of curiosity how would you see someone not fitting into typical gender roles as clashing with your religious beliefs?
And to clarify, this is an earnest question with no judgement attached. I'm just hoping to get a better understanding and not looking to change your opinion.
So when I think about dating, I also think about the long term. In my religion, Islam, we say there are only two genders; man and woman.
Lets say, I have a relationship with someone who is non-binary and we get children (long term thinking). We would clash with raising the children. The person would say âyou can be non-binaryâ to the children and I would say âno, in Islam. Thatâs not how it worksâ.
If we already have such a different opinion on gender roles and names, we certainly wouldâve different opinions on a lot of other things as well.
I don't date white people for the same reason
Yeah, I donât care. The question was asked by OP and I answered.
Obviously, but you answered in a forum, so not sure why you wouldn't care about other comments.
I donât care much, I just like to read opinions. However, I understand you donât like my opinion and therefore are trying to agitate me. Which is entirely fine, it is the internet.
Though, for what it is worth it. I donât think people who care about âwith kind of color someone isâ would consider me white, lol.
Anyway, I will stop commenting. Enjoy your day, afternoon or evening.
Why would you be agitated by that? We are similar. And I didn't need to know about your skin colour bro. Enjoy it I guess?
My partner is a pan-guy. I like dick, he sometimes wears frilly things and obtains saline boobs. Fun.
If that's how they introduced themselves. No.
If I found this out on the 3rd or 4th date during a casual, related conversation. Sure.
If we talk the same language and there is the spark of interest, I don't see why not. non-binary is all about breaking these barriers, correct?
Like everything, it depends. But probably not, theres too much aggro around that sort of thing since it turned into a political football.
If I properly loved them then sure I'd put up with it, and learn all about it, but I dont relish the idea of drawing heat from bigots everywhere I go, and would rather not.
Don't know. Probably not. I, straight female, have been attracted to straight presenting males since as long back as I have memories. But if I was prepubescent now and going forward, who knows, maybe my attractions would have changed?
As someone with a non-binary partner I feel obligated to answer. Sure, I don't really care what they were born as, as long as they're polite and actually love me, I don't really care if they're non-binary or a woman (I could be biased though since I never dated a non-binary person who was birthed a male, my non-binary partner was born a woman so I don't really know)
I never thought about it but yes, if they meet my other criteria for dating, being nonbinary wouldn't rule anyone out. It's just another personality trait.
EDIT: ah, sorry, missed the straight qualifier.
Yes.
If they were a good person with interests similar t to mine and compatible ... I don't know, trauma responses and I was attracted to them.
I tend to be attracted to femininity, but with exceptions. I also am bi, too, though, and old enough that that identity matters to me.
I am so glad I don't date cis straights, it sounds awful
Living up to your username I see lol. I don't concern myself with tags, just the person. There are plenty of aweful cis straights to date, just as there are plenty of aweful queers to date. Being a toxic pos is not exactly tied to gender identity or sexual orientation thankfully, or unfortunately depending on how you want to look at it.
Honestly I've spent a good part of my career working with men specifically in acute mental health environments and 90% of the time when a man expresses a lack of sexual attraction I'm relieved. The other 10% is indifference, but the amount of times they yell at me about how ugly I am and I'm like "...good...!?"
Like tbh there's a not insignificant chance I'm just a gay dude but like. I'm not in a rush to decide. And in the meantime if not looking how they think an AFAB should keeps more men able to interact with me nonsexually that's basically 100% beneficial. And honestly women aren't great either (they're not usually as pushy either but on the rare occasions they are they're way worse). Tbh that's probably why I'm a gay dude; bitches (in a romantic context) be crazy I just wanna drink a beer with my male bestie (now đ) and talk about whether yeast or dogs have been symbiotic with humans longer.