Agree or disagree? A lie by omission is still a lie.
1mon 5d ago by lemmy.world/u/Reygle in asklemmy
A lie is based on intent. If you're purposely intending to mislead someone, whether by omitting information or by outright stating false information, then it's a lie.
according to my exes it the intent was for us to be together.
I wouldn't consider it in a vacuum. I also look at intent and consequences. Did they omit info to gain advantage over others, or were they refusing to tell a Nazi where they hid the jews? Did their choice lead to a better outcome for everyone, or did it cause chaos and disrupt lives needlessly?
Everyone going "duh it's still a lie" - calling someone a liar carries a specific connotation which I don't think applies in all cases of so-called "lies". To me, a lie carries with it not just an intentional falsehood but an accusation or an accusable misdeed. I wouldn't call someone a liar because they hid jews from nazis.
Pretty sure not telling the nazi is still a lie. But an example of when it is ethical to lie.
You are either answering the wrong question, or are defining a lie based on some criteria I don't recognize.
Telling a Nazi there are no Jews in my basement is a lie. The only way it's not a lie is if there are, in fact, no Jews in my basement. But it is not wrong to lie to a Nazi.
A lie is still a lie, even if it’s told to a Nazi or if there’s an otherwise good outcome
Your point highlights the fact that lies are a tool. The intentional omission is a lie.
Judgment about the tool’s use is subjective.
Everyone uses this tool. Calling someone a liar is either calling them a human or it means you’re saying they use the tool more than they should which is yet another subjective judgment.
An interesting take, but not one that can be leaned on to navigate daily life as it doesn't reflect an understanding of how most people wield the label of "liar".
I agree, and it’s hard to educate because people don’t want to admit to using this tool at all.
Doesn’t change the fact that it is a tool and its use is subject to judgment.
Ooh I like that perspective.
Omission can be a lie as long as the intent is to deceive. Thats an important element to making something a lie
I run into this with my wife because we put different importance on different information, and I tend to go for succinct rather than take an hour to get something across.
I think the issue with this situation is often one person assuming they know what’s important and what’s not instead of letting the other person decide for themselves once they’re given the full info, it’s why omissions are often considered lies.
You’re actually not entitled to decide what others find important or not
Disagree. It's deceptive, but not a lie. A lie is a deliberately false statement, which omission cannot be.
That's not totally true. Usually a lie by omission is implying something, and that something isn't true. It is deliberately instilling a sense of false knowledge. You didn't specifically say it, but you still conveyed it. It's still a lie.
Saying something sarcastic is not the same as saying it non-sarcastically, for example. What is conveyed is what's important, not what is said.
It is deception, it is not a lie. Not all deception is lying.
I like this, it helps a lot
All lies are deceptions, but not all deceptions are lies
My silence was not a lie; you guessed about reality, and I just didn't correct you
A deception is a lie though, they’re synonyms.
If Jean-Luc Picard says it’s so, it’s so.
Completely serious - I often use WWJLPD to inform a decision I have to make.
Jean-Luc Piucard demands you make it so
the crucial element of a lie is intention to deceive, either by ommission or commission
I'd say it's technically a lie: an intentional misleading. Paltering is its close cousin.
People who palter often believe it is less unethical than outright lying
God I hate those people (no wonder the example used is a used car salesman)
I think omission can be used for misleading/deception, but that it's distinct from a lie.
Depends. Intentionally omitting information in order to mislead? That's a lie. Simply not mentioning something? Or not mentioning it because it's embarrassing for you or someone else, because you didn't think it was relevant, or because it's not their business or not your business to share? Not really a lie. Not in the same way anyway.
If the person lying by omission has the intent of causing the recipient to have false understanding (e.g. to provide basis for a choice) then it's at least as dishonest as a blatant lie.
If they omit information because they think it's irrelevant then it's just ignorance or negligence. Dishonest in the sense that it's not forthright.
Neither lies nor omission are inherently unethical without some basis for the relation between the two people being honesty/loyalty.
Yes.
And lie by suggestion and implication is also a lie.
It really depends on context.
Reminds me of Wheel of Time
Something like "shall speak no word that which is not true" is one of the 3 oaths... but they can still deceive without technically lying...
Your dress is green.
There is no Black Ajah.
Are you sure you’re not really asking if lying is good or bad? To me that’s an important distinction that should be addressed.
My kids used to believe in Santa and the Tooth Fairy. I perpetuated those lies because it was fun for everyone, and the boys enjoyed it. Now they’re older and know better, and they understand both sides. They were not hurt or upset.
But if I know my friend’s wife is cheating on him, and I don’t say anything to him, then obviously that’s bad and my friend would be devastated even more to find out I withheld such important information.
We often conflate “not telling lies” with “all lies are bad”, and that’s not always true.
I’m an adult and I believe in Santa so when mine asked I could confidently answer Yes.
Call me silly but I’m happy. I believe
The intent matters. Did you omit something on purpose to serve your own agenda/narrative or did you omit something for some other reason.
If you’re omitting something to serve yourself it’s a lie.
The core of dishonesty is disrespect for others and the truth. That's the core issue. Focusing on the method of prevarication is academic.
I'm not sure how I feel about your answer, but I appreciate it as a perspective and am glad you shared it.
I think we need better/more descriptive words for lying and deception.
When I tell my child to stay still for the injection because it wont be very sore and they'll hardly feel it, its not out of disrespect or malice. It is a fucking straight-up lie though I remember getting them when I was a kid.
Edit : for the most part I agree with you, but i think better language could help. Lying to sell a timeshare and lying to get a kid to take their medicine are basically the same thing even though theyre very different.
No, that would be deceit. Similar, but not the same. You can deceive someone by lying. Lying is an act of deceit.
Disagree
All lies are deceptions, but not all deceptions are lies
Lies are specific acts that are done, not acting is in itself not an act
Conservation of energy cannot be called an expenditure of energy
When people call something a "lie by omission" it's an attempt to shift the blame wholly to the other person rather than deal with the fact that part of the blame belongs to themselves
My silence was not a lie; you guessed about reality, and I just didn't correct you
You can still use it as a basis for future distrust and you can still use it as a reason to cut off or minimize future encounters
But it is not and should not be considered a malicious action against you as you would a lie
I would disagree that omission is not malicious; the intent of the omitter can be any reason. Perhaps not malicious in every case, but it could be as ill-meaning as any lie.
You can absolutely fail to disabuse people of incorrect notions for malicious reasons.
This just feels like mental gymnastics to me
No, this is wrong. Withholding information is definitely a lie by omission and comes in many flavors.
Failure to report - Knowingly withholding information about a severe crime.
Obstruction of justice - Intentionally hiding or omitting details to mislead authority.
Accessory after the fact - Omitting or lying about information to avoid becoming an accessory to a crime
Material omission - Omitting crucial information in relation to a financial crime AKA fraud.
Your silence in these situations is most definitely a lie. I think you are stuck on only action being considered a lie, but inaction is considered a lie by omission in these situations. This is a legal definition, so please keep that in mind.
I think it depends on the context. If it's like a close friend and the deception screws you over and was an unexpected betrayal, then it's basically a lie. If there's some reason someone might suck at a job and they don't mention it in the interview and were not asked, that's different because it's an adversarial situation and looking out for yourself means not showing all your cards, and everyone should understand that it's like that.
Hrm. I can see that point of view, but reeeeeaaaaly still feels like a lie to me. Thanks
Not sure I'd call it a lie according to these definitions...
A lie is an assertion that is believed to be false
a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth
We don't need to call it a lie to ackowledge it still carries the same moral burden, judgement and implications.
I'd call it deception.
Yes, that's why it's called that
It's only called that by detractors. Those take a more positive view call it "discretion".
If it's on purpose to deceive, I guess.
agree.
but context matters.
No. Otherwise everyone lies constantly by not telling everyone everything they are aware of at all times. Granted I met some people that would be pretty honesty by that metric. And everyone wants to get away from them.
The CIA recognizes it as a lie. So a lie.
Using the CIA for a litmus test is a bold move
Depends on the subject; the Culinary Institute of America is usually reliable.
How about a lie of omission to myself?
You can omit things from yourself? I'm not sure if I should be jealous or afraid.
In some trivial sense, we're all doing it constantly. The brain processes a lot of information that doesn't enter your train of thought. Then there's everything we experience but reflexively avoid thinking about due to some fear, pain, or conditioning. Then there's willful "putting out of mind," or willful forgetting, selective attention. And if ya push some of those hard, ya get ritual self-manipulation. I guess I'd argue the most common lie of omission is to the self.
it's called denial. it's a defense mechanism.
Agree with earlier comments that intentionally failing to mention a relevant truth (when one has an opportunity, when the relevant truth has not already been raised by others, etc.) can be an intention to deceive. But if we define "lie by omission" more broadly to include the failure to utter truths, then the only way to avoid it is to know everything, talk constantly, and approach infinite full disclosure by finite steps.
yin-lies & yang-lies are on the same spectrum, but at different ends of it.
It isn't a binary/dichotomy.
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Disagree. I refuse to be responsible for people drawing incorrect conclusions from what I said.
So, it's not your fault they made a bad decision based on you knowingly not telling them information that would help them possibly make a better/good decision? Yeah, it's definitely partly your fault at that point or all your fault depending on what you omitted.
If they make decisions based on assumptions, that is my fault, you're saying? No dice.
I'll agree that I forfeit the right to complain about those decisions if I withheld relevant information. I can even agree that I bear partial responsibility for their incorrect assumptions. But any decisions based on those assumptions are theirs alone.