Animals produce themselves! Remember we were hunters before we were farmers 10-30 thousand years ago. We have spent most of our history as humans without any farming at all.

and during that time we were 10-15 million... that's why I said I'll leave the arguments for how you reduce the current population 500 times to yourself.

and look I'm not against people in the global South having backyard chickens - but that isn't going to solve their nutritional issues in the near future - fortification infrastructure already exists - that's how we got iodized salt to 90% of the population

I don't think everyone can live my lifestyle, but we need to be raising up the economic vegetarians for basic humanitarian reasons, and it should be through access to animal sourced foods. A single egg a day to children in the global south will have huge impacts on health, cognitive function, and eventually economic independence.

but see that's literally my critique - you argue that you're just advocating for a single egg a day to help children in the global south (your motte) but your actual position is that the healthiest way to live is to be a full carnivore (your bailey argument) - one is fine and noble and the other requires population culling to 0.2% of current levels - this is not arguing in good faith

anyways I'm getting janny chased out of here so I'll take my leave

1kg of beef represents about 70kg of grass, so a person eating 0.5kg of beef a day is getting 35kg of concentrated gas and accompanying b12. Supplementing is a good idea, but it is hard to imagine it will keep up, and be as bioavailable as natural protein sources provide, especially when looking at economic vegans - focusing on getting one egg a day into everyone will have more impact then fortifying grain at scale

wait are you actually arguing that it's cheaper to feed everyone half a kilo of grass fed beef or an egg a day than it is to fortify grains with B12? that's genuinely absurd

also

Supplementing is a good idea, but it is hard to imagine it will keep up, and be as bioavailable as natural protein sources provide

good thing we dont have to imagine as we can look at empirical data:

Vitamin B(12) in eggs seems to be poorly absorbed (< 9%) relative to other animal food products

so a single large egg a day with about 0.6µg of B12 at 9% is highly inadequate - even more recent studies that found higher bioabsorbtion note: "An egg is confirmed as a good source of B12, supplying approximately 20% of the average adult daily requirement (RDA for adults = 2.4 μg/day)." - so you need a minimum of 5 eggs a day for proper B12 dosage

on supplements:

At a low dose of 2.3 µg, the mean bioavailability was 46.2 ± 12.8 (%, mean ± SD, n = 11). At a higher dose of 18.3 µg, the mean bioavailability was 7.6 ± 1.7 (%, mean ± SD, n = 4).

so vegans should either take an extra B12 tablet at a different meal time to your regular multivitamin supplements - or just take a super poorly absorbed 1000µg one but still get 10µg via passive diffusion - either way it costs no more than 5c per full dose which is half the price of a single egg in a global majority country - and ofc large scale fortifications would be magnitudes cheaper than consumer tablets

your B12 beef argument holds more water:

The bioavailability of vitamin B(12) in healthy humans from fish meat, sheep meat, and chicken meat averaged 42%, 56%-89%, and 61%-66%, respectively](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17959839/)

assuming an average of 60% absorption at 500g with 1.1µg average per 100g a day - you're looking at 3.3µg which is plenty adequate

HOWEVER 500g of beef a day is unattainably high - why do you think your second paper mentions B12 deficiency in rural Chinese farmers? meat and animal product consumption is an extremely western and high class pattern - for most of our agricultural history we've been consuming animal products in very low quantities because they take a lot of resources to produce

we're currently using 4.8 billion hectares - 1.6 cropland and 3.2 pasture to produce calories for 8 billion people and we barely manage ~20g of beef per person per day (in a highly "efficient" grain-fed hyper-compact industrial farming system) - if we were to convert all of it to just grass-fed beef production it would exceed the total landmass of the Earth! it is phsycially impossible to feed 10 billion people with meat and animal products alone

now if you want to argue for mass population culling so that everyone can eat a carnivore diet well that's a whole different argument...

look I see you're super invested in your carnivore lifestyle and we live in a free world so you do you boo - but understand that the reason this is personally attainable to you is because we live in a heavily fossil-fuel subsidiesed world and you likely live in a region that has extracted so much resources from the global South that even suggesting everyone can live your lifestyle is an incredibly detached view of reality - I believe you're unlikely to internalise this anytime soon but I just hope you do so one day

who I assume have been told to supplement already

who then most likely don't as the paper itself calls out that:

Madry et al. have reported a significant decrease of serum vitamin B-12 from 285 pg/mL to 230 pg/mL (p < 0.0001) in omnivores changing to strict vegan diet for five years, consuming exclusively natural product, but not in those vegans consuming vitamin B-12 fortified products

which was probably a bigger problem 12 years ago when this paper was written as plant based milks and stuff were much less popular and weren't B12 fortified - imo vegan folk should still supplement B12

on the B12 high blood levels but low absorption finding - this is def an issue but it's independent of diet - I would assume this actually works in favour of vegans because they would be more likely to take higher dose oral B12 irrespective of any underlying malabsorption mechanisms but obvs this my conjecture - tho your second paper does note:

The use of high-dose oral B12 at different frequencies may be considered for long-term treatment. Prophylactic B12 supplementation should be considered for specific high-risk groups

but yh tldr; take your vitamins kids

From the paper:

Vitamin B-12 supplementation has a favourable impact on these vascular surrogates in Hong Kong vegans and in underprivileged communities in northern rural China.

From the book synopsis:

In these babies the brain atrophy can be reversed with vitamin B12 if it is picked up in time

So your argument is that vegans should supplement B12? cool

source/proof?

what about independent Uyghur news outlets? specifically one that was founded in response to trump gutting RFAs Uyghur service (from 20 reporters to just 1)

but tankies keep telling me Russia is fighting the ukrainazis - maybe Tommy is secretly an anti-imperialist??

also let's not pretend the recovery email is for the user - it's for proton to ensure they don't register spammers that can get their domain blocklisted

POSE had a solution to this...

hey it's the dude that claimed he just had to get a private jet since it was "basically free" by using what he calls "girl math" where he gets to write it off as a company expense by using it to make vlogs of his family going on vacation to Cabo - but I'm sure he truly cares about FOSS values when making videos like this 😒